Late Night Thought Experiment
Added 2024-12-08 05:04:01 +0000 UTCThoughts?
Comments
I want to preface this by saying that I'm a HUGE alt fighter fan. I've been playing one for a couple years now, and he's probably my favorite 5e character I've ever played (and we've been playing 5e since 2014). My group has been using your alt classes for several years, with rave reviews of the Fighter, Rogue, Barbarian, Monk, and Artificer (and Shaman). With that perspective, I think this is a big step backwards for the AF for a few reasons. First, it removes a layer of tactical thinking in combat. Having resources to use, multiple options, and weighing the best time to use them has made your alt martials a huge hit in our group. This version is both essentially resourceless (since you get a die every turn) and has many fewer options (since you get so many fewer exploits). I think it'll lead to much more samey turns and less engaging tactical combat. It's a small sample size, but the only alt martial you've made that a player in our group didn't enjoy playing is Ranger in large part for exactly this reason- he felt like every turn was the same and missed his exploits (he's played two Alt Barbs, an Alt Rogue, and now an Alt Fighter/Shaman, and loved all of them). Second, it moves backwards on giving the Fighter things to do outside of fighting. One of my personal favorite things about the AF is being able to pick a bunch of non-combat exploits to allow my character to shine outside of initiative. Tactical skill is OK, but it's limited to the Fighter skill list and advances very slowly. I really don't like limiting it to the Fighter class skill list- this is probably my biggest negative in the rework. It doesn't allow for a bunch of character concepts that are pretty commonplace and doesn't really seem to be a balance concern (since Perception is on there and is by far the most used skill). As an example, "charismatic warleader" is a super common fictional archetype (think Aragorn, Sokka, Perrin Aybara, etc), yet the AF can't use Tactical Skill for Persuasion. Similarly, Eldritch and Witch Knights can't pick Arcana, Guerrillas can't pick Nature, and Crusaders can't pick Religion. If nothing else, please let them pick any skill they're proficient in! It's also super limited in number of skills. In practice, the optimal choice will always be Perception, since it's by far the most used skill, which pushes back both meaningful choice and the number of skills you get it on. Lastly, getting extra Fighting Styles just doesn't feel meaningful. It has the base Battle Master issue that you pick your favorites right at the beginning and the later picks are meaningless. It's hard to see when you'd use more than two styles (one for melee and one for ranged), since you're going to lock in your feats and weapons for a particular style. A GWM/PAM fighter is heavily disincentivized from grabbing a sword and board, for instance, even if she can swap in Dueling for GWF. If you want to keep multiple Styles, I'd let them have multiple active at once so it's gaining additive power. A Dex fighter isn't going to switch to Mariner over Two-Weapon Fighting, for instance, but gaining it as an add-on is a neat little added extra. Sorry for the essay of criticisms! Your classes and subclasses have been some of our favorite content for 5e, and I appreciate that you're not just resting on your laurels and constantly trying to improve and innovate. This change just strikes me as going in the wrong direction for the Alt Fighter. However, I could see it as a worthwhile separate option, since it seems simpler to build and run than the AF- maybe just rename it to Warrior/Armsman/Fighting (Wo)man and have them both exist!
PotatoGolem
2024-12-13 01:58:25 +0000 UTCFirst thing, a lovely "thank you for your amazing work by all of our dnd group".. and now let's start the yapping. All of our considerations are with the 2014 5e in mind, we don't use 2024 till now. We're not sure about this change. Our concern are many, the particoulare dip potential. Second is having only one dice until level 20. With the current fighter, at level 11 you can restore all dices in 10 min. Most dnd combat are not long fight, almost all fights I guess... I don't like that I'm "forced" to use Eroic focus without doing anything else with my dice, but is at least cool is no more a concentration ability. Basically now the fighter will be less of a dps and more of a dungeon delver... problem is that it's very rare, unfortunately, to have more than two even three fights before a long rest. In this way the fighter will be actually nerfed in my opinion. Plus we hope the other exploits will be updated, the loss of Recuit Mercenary or Survey Settlement it's unfortunate In my opinion. Another thing, but that's more on all around every fighter in 5th edition, talking with my friends the fighting style are disappointing (not your's, but in general). They're nice to have in tier 1, but after that they're meh. And feats... martial In general lacks feats. This a problem for the mere amount of ASI and of course that's for balancing, problem is there are loads of feat that are really bad, or extremely situational, and no one will take that. But enough with the yapping, lemme just give some suggestion, from our group: -If this will be the eventual fighter update, it should really be more scaling with the exploit dice. At level 1 you have 1, at level 20 basically one every attack if I'm reading correctly. What about a more long scaling? Like for example 2 at level 9, 3 at level 16 something like this (not precisely at those level, but just to give you an idea) Another Idea might be to keep it at it is now, so with a determined number of exploit dice, but simply give it more. Like two more dice could be gold, or even one could be ok, keeping the possibility of 11 level restoring. -there was suggestion of a ranger style knacks for fighting styles/edlritch invocation style/or a sort of skill tree. Like for example, at level 1 you choose defensive, so that's +1 ca. And maybe at a later level you have an improved version of that fighting style, so that could be maybe a +2 ca or, better imo, a feat! Like The fighting style give you access to a tree of possibile free feats, so maybe Defensive could give you access to the "master of x armor" or "shield master". Maybe classical sword play could give you access to "Defensive Duelist" exc. -Feats are cool, and unfortunately most of fighter need lots of them even for a flavor prospective. So maybe could be cool to give a 1st level level feat, and maybe a second one a second moment. (ofc that's a suggestion, and that's if the skill tree of feats would be to much) -Arcane Knight, Psi Knight e Witch Knight those magical subclass really need an update, they don’t keep up with the others, the Arcane Knight in particular.
JustNick 92
2024-12-11 08:50:43 +0000 UTCThere are multiclass concerns, However, the idea of a fighter that keeps on going is more in line with what the fighter is, I think a way to regain superiority dice during combat at like 5th or 10th level, such as gaining 1 dice for every attack you do not take during an attack action or something like that. IDK about balance but another thought to throw into the mix.
Zangism
2024-12-10 22:34:59 +0000 UTCOH ALSO! I think the change to multiattack to allow for a bonus action attack when using its main action to do something else is simply a incredible quality-of-life change for martials! Since most martials are kinda restricted to being the main damage dealers in parties, it can be just truly not worth it to sacrifice all out damage output for a round just to take another action that attacking, even though it would make combat for martials much more interesting, imo! That being said though, if this is a change that is planned to make its way to most martials getting extra attack (which I think it should), I think when the fighter gets its second extra attack, the feature should also upgrade to allow the bonus action attack to become two attacks! Thus always expending two attacks for utility instead of damage, to keep it as more of a interesting option when leveling up and gaining more extra attacks!
David-sun provencher doucet
2024-12-08 23:42:50 +0000 UTCHonestly, I do quite like the superioty dice as it seems more like a master of combat and combat adaptibility while allowing interesting fair usefullness from the tactical skills. That being said, I think like most here, having it from the get go at level 1 makes it a way too tempting martial dip. I do feel like maybe this should be implemented like a feature that scales the more levels invested in fighter a character has. For exemple, maybe when a fighter rolls initiative, it gains a amount of superioty dice it can use during the combat, in addition to its normal superioty die- but those can only be used once per round and the die resplenishment could be either limited by a scaling number of uses per long rest (regaining one per short rest/for a exhaustion level.(also maybe allowing a fighter to use a bonud action to expend a use of the resplenishment of superioty die they'd get on initiative but later in combat, in case they run out of juice. This would make for some epic scenes of a last stand, if you ask me!), like a barbarian's rage uses, for exemple. How many superioty die should be replenished on initiative, i do not know- But I do think it should scale with fighter levels. Also, I believe that those suggestions could be a decent way to sell the fighter's fantasy further without overtuning it and making it such a strong martial dip as it seems like in this version, it is! Which BTW, I do absoluyely feel like this version REALLY sells what I picture of the fantasy of playing a fighter(moreso than your previous alt version- altho, that one was 300% better than classical 5e's fighter version); fighters, to me are not just some good warrior that waits for the right time to perform one of their martial few limited tricks (since that sounds much more like a rogue's fantasy) using the limited amount of maneuvers they get and instead more like a pristine master warrior that can be as generalised or specialised in a way of fighting as they want. A master or arms that could truly "do it all day" (or mostly) unlike all other martials, could truly "do this all day" (or almost!) and who could be recongnised instantly on the battlefield by their signature fighting style and precision that never seems to waver. Also, I do really love the way the mechanic for a fighter's to be able to better know its ennemy is in this version. As for fighting styles, I do like the few changes made to some of them! I think they are overall better, from what I remember of the old ones. That being said, a bit of a hot-take but I think maybe fighting styles should be re-designed in a way similar way you did for alt ranger's knacks! To maybe incentivise different and unique play styles between specialising in a very specific style of fighting or being more of a well-rounded combattant, which could come from this extra layer of flavourful customisation. Also/or I think a fighter character should maybe get a interesting choice to make between maybe gaining two extra fighting styles to choose and switch from and a extra fighting styles that could add up with the ones they have, simultaneously. Thus, a fighter could choose, when gaining fighting styles, to either choose to be more adaptable or to be more of a specialist with a very signature combo of fighting styles. Id absolutely love this just for the idea of having two fighters in the same party feeling similar yet being customised in such different and unique ways that allow them to fight differently than each others in a denotable way beyond a subclass and a singular fighting style. Maybe a fighter could gain a extra fighting style at the same (or similar time) as they gain extra attacks? Also, I do feel like the mechanics of being able to apply a maneover die to a action or attack each round is a feature that would befit perfrctly a barbarian's rage. They go in a frenzy, and momentarilly become better than any other martials and at the end of the rage- well, they are still decent warriors, but would likely get their but handed over to them by a fighter following the design ideas/suggestions I mentionned. Once again, I just adore the flavour of that and how it really accentuate the fantasy of each martial classes imo! That being said, the lvl 20 fighter feature absolutely does feel like the powerful feature a legendary fighter should get at that level and I adore that! Also a small change but I do think I noticed that some 4-5th degrees levels options inspired of spells like haste do not have a concentration that can be broken- And I think I remember that this wasn't neccesarilly the case before- and If my memory serves me well here, then I think this is infact a excellent change! I would absolutely hate for concentration on such a "spell-like" maneuvers to be broken for a martial for... taking damage! Which is like the modt likely to happen in a melee fight when martials are involved, so, I thought that was neat. At last, unless I forget anything, I think this is all the suggestions and feedback ive comed up with looking through this playtest(?) version of fighter! I really hope this version's concept wont be scrapped because I really like the direction of this! Makes me want to play a fighter, actually. PS: I think the feature of having free once-per-turn maneuvers die could really fit the barbarian's "battle state" fantasy (as ive mentionned earlier) and I think that adding a option for a barbarian, when entering a rage, to expend a additional use of a rage (like some druid subclasses do!) to empower in different ways their rage, im exchange for exhausting their very important rage ressource and thus, taking loads of risks. Maybe this could by adding this fighter's one free maneuver's per turn mechanic , for a added rage use expended! I think this would give some very interesting risk-rewards choices for players! Also, if it could be used while already being in a rage (using a bonus action, for exemple), I think it could get for some very interesting combat scenes. Just imagining a warrior punching a raging barbarian straight in the face and... it decides to enter its "second phase" and gets empowered- in exchange for the length of his rage being shorter (since it would have less rage uses to expend, in case of need) and being vulnerable after the empowered rage! Although this would be a very long change to add to the previously added mechanics, I could absolutely see how the concept of a "empowered rage" could be interesting with subclasses- as it could allow for maybe each subclasses (or simply some) to offer unique empowered rages bonus features! Maybe a barbarians would get overalll more rage uses but the max rage uses that be expended at once (or during combat) could be limited. Maybe a X lvl barbarian could have 4 rage uses per long rest (regaining one per short rest) and yet only still be able to use two uses max to empower a rage. As a barbarian fangirl player, Ive had a lot of experiences of no one (not even me) not keeping tracks of the number of rages I had left, much like arrows for many archers martial players! Because they didnt have much unique uses apart from allowing me to use my character's main feature. There was no unique choices that came with "gaining more rage uses". My rage was just dealing a tiny bit more damage after a few levels, all the while id be still as vulnerable to damage types that arent slashing, bludgeoning or slashing even at high-tiers of play where that's what I was getting mostly dealt. If there could be unique ways to use rage uses numbers scaling up with levels, I think the barbarian's fantasy would be even more present and id find it even more enjoyable and awesome. ANYWAY- Thank you for reading my huge rent! I absolutely adore creating homebrew that add and "upgrade" the fantasy of certain classes and fantasy themes in my games so, If there's a chance for some of my suggestions and ideas to make its way in my favorite go-to homebrewer, id be delighted! Anyhooms, good day/night to all! :))
David-sun provencher doucet
2024-12-08 23:32:33 +0000 UTCI think it’s pretty good. The fact that you only have 1 die really stops you from going over the top with the amount of things you can do in a turn compared to all the other alternates. In that sense even if you can do stuff every turn it’s not like you can do a lot of stuff per turn. Like the basic slash and second wind is this class and with alt fighter you get slash, second wind and an exploit. So in my mind this is a marathon warrior and not that strong compared to weapon masteries. Overall cool!
Mirnal Rana
2024-12-08 06:53:50 +0000 UTCYeah, Laser should just focus on - aside from adding new subclasses - the Beast Compendium, their original classes, and the Alts. for Warlock, Paladin, Bard, Wizard, Druid, and Cleric, because everything else they've made is perfect as is (baring adding anything from DnD 2024 they might like).
Andrew Downs
2024-12-08 06:15:41 +0000 UTCI do feel it's important to limit the superiority die. Being able to do an exploit every turn would be pretty detrimental to making the exploits feel like their namesake. Less so strategies they can implement and just sheer brute force.
Klaytopus
2024-12-08 06:06:52 +0000 UTCI feel like from a design standpoint, this iteration seems more muddy. The superiority die fueling exploits is a bit more confusing than leaving it as exploit die. Further, getting a free one every turn *at level 1* seems like a lot. This would make a level 1 Fighter Dip insane for any martial class, as you’re just giving yourself Bless for free every turn. Has there been balance feedback that the class felt underpowered? We recently had one at my table for 3 years and for sure didn’t seem like it.
Bradley Webb
2024-12-08 05:51:02 +0000 UTCI agree here. I feel like the current Alternate Fighter is pretty perfect. Tactical Skills may not hurt though.
Bradley Webb
2024-12-08 05:48:00 +0000 UTCI don't think giving the Fighter unlimited Exploit Dice is a good idea. It also doesn't make sense to call them Superiority Dice when they're powering Exploits. Additionally, having far fewer Exploits known is a drawback. And while I appreciate the idea of the Fighter learning more Fighting Styles, this conflicts with the Master at Arms subclass, making it feel pointless. Overall, I prefer the version we already have. However, I think the Tactical Skills could be brought over.
Andrew Downs
2024-12-08 05:29:44 +0000 UTCSeems like an upgraded version of a fighter. A warrior who understands that he needs an edge at all cost to catch up with spell casters. I like it. However, the superior die makes the class unbalance in a sense that it can out perform the barbarians rage by (at least) a league. Maybe limit it at earlier stage or give it a “give and take” system? Possibly allow players to use it at latter levels?
Lore Keeper
2024-12-08 05:15:08 +0000 UTC
