Season 3, Ep 17
Added 2022-02-18 16:31:00 +0000 UTCholy shit lol 😳
Comments
I’m sure its been said a bunch of times, but i assume/ believe/ infer… that the mayor hires this demon dude to remove angel’s soul; and the demon then goes to giles and says the mayor has hired him for this thing. Faith has a few tells (waltzing right into the book-demon’s apartment, knowing there was a light switch hidden behind a wall which faith reaches for and turns on without looking or even facing that directio , how quick she is to leave the place and her overall demeanour there - all likely tipped off buffy something was up; and giles and buffy, putting 2 and 2 together, came up with the angelus fake out plan (including the demon hired by the mayor of course). All this assumes thats either the mayor mentioned buffy/ the slayer to the soul-demon, or that the soul-demon knew of angel’s connection to giles and buffy to be able to goto him and alert him. Some people say that giles contacted the soul-demon to plan this out but i dont see how thats feasible within the context of the rest of the episode. I think the soul-demon’s line about “do not call upon me again…” just means, dont contact him in future in general because they are even, the debt is repaid, he wont answer/ wont necessarily side with him in future, etc. i dont think it meant giles contacted him for the purpose of the angelus plan.
Holi117
2023-04-22 21:17:54 +0000 UTCI don't deny that the Mayor is wise to be so prudent; I'm only speaking from the viewers' (or at least THIS viewer's) perspective. To quote Cordelia, "this is all about me! Me, me, me!" :) I'm not sure that Snyder's been acting on the Mayor's direct orders; it seems more likely he's just passing on reports. What I really want to know is how he was able to get someone to answer that call in "Becoming, Part 2", since by the episode timeline it must have been about 4.00 a.m. (I always envision Allan [or whomever Snyder got on the line] saying "It's the middle of the night, jerk! Call back during normal hours!" and slamming down the phone. But that's just me, lol.)
Jessica Roth
2022-02-25 18:12:15 +0000 UTCTechnically, Buffy has faced many human villains up to this point, but the show has made supernatural means interrupt her having to make a decision about how to deal with it before now. The first I can think about was Amy's mom in 1x02 Witch. She faced a homicidal witch, but the witch ended up casting a spell o herself, so Buffy was off the hook. There were more small character human villains that she similarly avoided having to really flex her judiciary muscle over. It wasn't really until Lie To Me that they really forced her to think about how she would deal with a human using supernatural elements to hurt or kill. Again, in the end, she avoided actually having to make a decision, because he was turned into a vampire, which clearly placed him in her jurisdiction. Ted forced her to view the matter from a different perspective. Again though, she avoided actually having to take the thoughts to their conclusion because Ted ended up not being human. You are right though, that Faith appears to be the possible conclusion to the ideas those episodes brought up. Faith may just be the character to force Buffy to actually make the decision of what does the slayer do with a human villain. I should mention that Faith still in a way taints the whole thing, because as a slayer, is Faith still fully human? Isn't she a part of the supernatural world? I'm going to leave off there because any more will get spoilery. I will say, I personally think you are really going to enjoy the conclusion of this season.
Jordan Haddow
2022-02-24 20:33:35 +0000 UTCI don't know. It all comes down to semantics. True, the Mayor isn't close to Angelus, but they are very different villains. Angelus is very defined by passions. He wants to be there, close and personal, to watch the anguish he's caused at the moment it's caused. The Mayor though has always been the guy behind the curtain pulling the strings. So, from an authentic character motivational perspective, it makes no sense for him to personally attack Buffy directly. He has been threatening and attacking her for a long time now though. Snyder gave us that tidbit of info at the end of season 2, when the gleefully called the Mayor to inform him he finally ticked off one of the tasks he'd been given when made principal of the school. So, in fact the Mayor has been threatening Buffy since the first season. Every time Snyder has come down hard on Buffy, make some cutting remark, tried to have her punished or kicked out of school, that's all thanks to the Mayor. Of course, now that the Mayor is upsetting the balance, coming out from behind the curtain it seems, by pushing for this ascension, things may change from cloak and dagger to more direct action. Guess we'll have to wait and see.
Jordan Haddow
2022-02-24 20:16:08 +0000 UTCTHIS is a good point! i was very excited about the mayor and then each episode im like okay give me more! and then i juuuust kind of get pieces! makes sense why i was SO excited for angelus to be back - i'm kind of craving that intense villain. 10000%. im hoping the build up is worth it tho! its mysterious i guess enough but im hoping the reveal is worth it! (i know you cant say hahah but just my current thoughts on it!!)
darciesnothere
2022-02-24 20:03:33 +0000 UTCHAHAHA!! i dunno if its a GOOD thing that i know bad angel so well that i can tell when hes off hahaha but its fun for me!!
darciesnothere
2022-02-24 20:01:26 +0000 UTCHAHAHA thank you!! gosh this was such a fun episode for me im glad you had fun too!!
darciesnothere
2022-02-24 20:01:04 +0000 UTCNO JORDAN lol i spent way too much time thinking about this all! .... because if i remember correctly, faith would be the first human "villain" we've had so far. i remember thinking in one reaction what if the mayor is just a bad human? but then shrugged it off cause like nah we don't really do that in this world BUT NOW WE ARE? I just.. it makes my mind race! and honestly i can see how this show is so endlessly rewatchable! its the small details... the small details.
darciesnothere
2022-02-24 20:00:43 +0000 UTChahaha i LOVE that everyone in this community has different episodes they love and hate! i'd always been down to hear your reasoning why you hate it buttt glad you enjoyed watching it with me! i had a ton of fun with it... as jessica mentions, bad angel was JUST off enough that i was like what the heck is going on here lol. BUT the missing plot issues.... yeah after the excitement of the episode dies down i find myself going.. now how did this make sense?!
darciesnothere
2022-02-24 19:59:02 +0000 UTCFinally (lol! at last!), I should note that Doug Petrie also lets us down on the violence front this time. The man gave us 11 fights in his previous two eps (plus Gwen Post bonking people and Buffy/Faith wrecking a police car). Now? We get Faith stabbing a demon, Faith and Angel "wiggling" for a bit, Angel suckerpunching people, and Buffy and Faith having a brief scuffle. Big whoop. Did Jeff Pruitt take the week off or something? Yes, yes, lesbian subtext between Buffy and Faith, but since that's almost guaranteed to be nothing but a tease, IMO it doesn't make up for everything else that's lacking. Even if Doug did get Faith to (finally) kiss Buffy at the end. (Doug wanted the kiss to be on the lips. The network said no. Which is presumably why we won't get scenes of Faith taking Angel's place in Buffy's sex dreams any time soon.)
Jessica Roth
2022-02-22 04:39:11 +0000 UTCAnd doesn't the fact that we're all glad to see "Angelus" again say something about the Mayor being…somewhat lacking? I mean, we're *seventeen* episodes in and he hasn't even confronted Buffy yet. He hasn't even threatened her, barring Mr. Trick's silly "hope she walks under this one particular crate and then drop it on her " Rube Goldberg plan. (Yes, yes, threats to Willow and Angel…but still.) It's nice that he's invincible, but it's not exactly making for thrilling television. JMO.
Jessica Roth
2022-02-22 04:33:16 +0000 UTCBut no, Buffy decides to lie to Willow for no reason, and let Willow think that Angel has lost his soul again. Sure, let's let Willow think that the mass-murderer who tried to choke her to death, who tried to kill Xander, who left her a sobbing wreck by killing her favorite teacher/mentor/role model, who was responsible for putting her in a coma and having her confined to a wheelchair…let Willow think he's back. That makes tons of sense! Honestly, "Angel's back, in the really BAD way" must have been the biggest nightmare Willow and Xander have had for the past year. And Buffy lets them feel that horror all over again…for ZERO reason. (Cordelia has also shown [in "Revelations"] that she's not over Season 2, either, but Buffy almost never takes Cordy's feelings into consideration.) It doesn't even make sense from a "protect Angel" point of view. Thinking that "Angelus" is back might spur the gang into action that will leave Buffy boyfriendless. If the gang had made it to the mansion 30 seconds sooner, someone could have fired a crossbow bolt and ended the "threat" of "Angelus" once and for all. (Heck, during the melee, Oz looks as if he's about to stake Angel [and earn my undying love…], but he stops himself, for reasons that are unclear. Damn it, Wolfboy! Don't tease!)
Jessica Roth
2022-02-22 02:29:27 +0000 UTC(Okay, I grant you, one of my few quibbles with "Döppelgängland" is that Whedon doesn't make that connection firmly enough. If you hadn't seen the previous two episodes, you'd think the only trouble between Buffy and Willow was that Buffy called her "reliable". Oh, that silly Willow! Getting all butt-hurt because of a silly word that Buffy didn't mean to be harsh! Remember, Buffy is our Pure and Valiant Defender of Innocent Foreheads, and Willow is just some dumb slut who cheated on Oz the Great, the Bestest Boyfriend Ever! So OBVIOUSLY it's all Willow's fault, right?)
Jessica Roth
2022-02-22 02:15:22 +0000 UTCBut as bad as it is that Buffy (and Giles) treat Xander that way, that's not even a patch on how they treat Willow. Even allowing that Buffy wasn't just faking the angst with Willow in Act II (and I'm REALLY dubious of that, because how did she agree to the plan if she actually thought Angel might dump her for Faith?), didn't she just spend last episode trying to rebuild her bonds with Willow after they'd been frayed by what happened in "Bad Girls/Consequences"?
Jessica Roth
2022-02-22 02:11:32 +0000 UTCHey, by the way, how are we doing on following up on 3.13's promise of a more centered and mature Xander, one that the writers will treat with respect? Well, in this episode, Buffy lies to him, Angel sucker-punches him, and Petrie makes him the butt of a joke where he's too much of a wuss to beat up Willy and has to bribe him. And because he didn't get a receipt, he's out $28! (That's like, what, $200 Canadian? j/k). Ha-ha! What a LOSER!! I mean, why doesn't Giles just do the mature thing and reimburse Xander, simply telling him "next time, get a receipt, please"? Giles is a working adult who can afford a fancy apartment (I certainly was never able to spring for a place with a loft bedroom…) and while he might be down to only one paycheck these days, I'm reasonably sure he can afford $28 a lot more than a kid living on an allowance, who could only afford $2 for his Halloween costume, and had to borrow his tuxedo and his fancy car from relatives. Stop being a jerk, Rupe.
Jessica Roth
2022-02-22 01:52:14 +0000 UTCI realize that the only reason Petrie has The Three Assholes lying to the rest of the cast (and also Wesley) is to pull a cheap trick on the audience, but I can't help analyzing it within the show only. WHAT is the rationale for lying to Willow and Xander and Cordy and Oz? Does Buffy suddenly not trust them? Ridiculous! Angel hits Xander with a completely unnecessary sucker punch (he could have kept his "cover" by simply telling him what was going on: "We're going to meet Buffy; you go to the Library and let the others know") and Buffy says "he only did what I asked him to do." So either Buffy TOLD Angel to beat Xander up (and leave him unconscious on a Sunnydale street at night) or Angel went out of his way to exceed his mission and hit her "best friend"…and she doesn't care. The hell? If nothing else, why isn't Buffy concerned for Xander's safety any longer? Why isn't she keeping him "fray-adjacent"? It's not as if she knows about his "secretly cool" heroics in the Zeppo episode, after all.
Jessica Roth
2022-02-22 01:43:41 +0000 UTCI was on the edge of my seat waiting for your reaction to the big twist at the end and you did not disappoint! I love that you have gotten to know these characters so much (and their acting is so good) that you knew something was up with Faith coming to Angel and something was “off” with Angelus. You are a true fan!
Teresa Schultz
2022-02-20 01:05:11 +0000 UTCI can't ever get to "hate" here, because David does such a good job of being just SLIGHTLY off. I was vibrating with joy when Darcie started questioning him. My ire is for the mistreatment (once again) of the kids. WHY do the Lying Conspiracy of Jerks (Buffy, Angel, Giles) feel it's necessary to lie to Willow, Xander, Oz, and Cordelia? I can't come up with a single reason.
Jessica Roth
2022-02-19 17:14:20 +0000 UTCHands down - this has been my favorite reaction to the big reveal. I already loved this episode, but you made me love it even more. And thank you for pausing to give yourself time to freak out. lol
indaeo
2022-02-19 06:22:04 +0000 UTCOoooh, yes. I love that you point out all the questions that arise surrounding slayer lore with respects to demons that don't kill and what about bad humans. I love nerding out on all the slayer lore in this show. Now, I could go into an in depth and very long discussion on the matter, as I've probably done that a million times already. I'm not going to here though. Some of the real fun of this show is getting a chance to figure some of that stuff out on your own, and since these episodes are really posing those questions, I think it's especially important to not just be told. I can though, point out some of my favorite episodes that do build the foundation of the lore that Buffy uses to guide her in these types of matters. Of course, I love Ted, the episode, not the insane robot bent on drugging everyone and killing Joyce. Of Course, Ted is built right on top of Lie to Me. Both of those deal with the human side of things along with other matters. Then of course, there's Angel, which breaks Buffy out of her black and white model of all demons must die. Of course, the Pilot episode is the ground layer of the foundation, fi you really want to go all the way back to the slayer lore's roots. Additionally, both becomings and Amends all add their bits. Honestly, one of the reasons this show is so good is because when you rewatch it, it isn't the same old stuff you watched before. There are all these details that make so much more sense when you've seen ahead to episodes that build on them. In the first run through, they seem interesting, but not that important. Later though, you can see how vital they are to the show, so it doesn't have to waste time explaining a bunch of little things, but just get on with the big stuff, like, should or could Buffy kill Faith? This episode even subtly explores more of the slayer lore when the demon runs away from them in the graveyard. Buffy stops faith, not just because she's interested in hearing more from the demon, but because she doesn't think he poses a threat to people. A little bit of lore that one of the above mentioned episodes builds so Buffy would react that way. What can I say, you just have to love a show that requires reasoning and motivations to back actions.
Jordan Haddow
2022-02-19 06:14:27 +0000 UTCAs The Zeppo is to Jessica Roth, so Enemies is to me. It's the episode that everyone else seems to love, but which I dislike more every time I see it. There are very few Buffy episodes that I actually *hate.* This is one of them. But gosh, Darcie, you had so much fun with this one that I'm now feeling strangely reticent about it. I just so enjoyed watching you enjoy watching it. So maybe I'll rant about this episode some other time. Not today. Thank you for a terrific reaction!
SK Elkins
2022-02-19 05:58:59 +0000 UTC
