Season 3, Ep 7
Added 2021-12-09 16:45:02 +0000 UTCumm so, i feel like so much happened! š³
*side note*
this was the weirdest episode for the show's audio, the volume seems to change by the second lol. i did my best to fix it as i was editing but definitely would have missed some parts so if it goes from quiet to loud real quick blame them. :)
Comments
LOLOLOL
darciesnothere
2022-08-01 02:06:49 +0000 UTC"Are there any bad watchers?" lolz
Calvin Allen
2022-07-22 02:24:39 +0000 UTCI defo agree that S1 Angel and Buffy's relationship was annoying and troubling because his whole attitude towards her was problematic. Like how aggressive he was being with her, the fact that he only ever showed up randomly to give some stupid cryptic message and then disappear, that whole thing made it difficult to see why Buffy was so infatuated with him. But these past few episodes make it a little easier to understand. Buffy essentially took him in like a stray dog, and saw how psychologically torn up he was after hell. I think that addition to their relationship really changed Angel because now he's not so wrapped up in thinking "Oh, if she only knew what Angelus was like she'd want nothing to do with me" because now she HAS seen Angelus and she's forgiven him. Flashback to when he asks Buffy if she loves him before he tells her about torturing Drusilla. He was essentially telling her "You think you love me now because you have no idea what I've done." Buffy sees Angel apart from Angelus, which is something it seems like Angel has not been able to do, because he feels so much guilt over what Angelus has done. That all adds to his broodyness and his annoying habit of keeping her at arms length by disappearing suddenly that he had before going to hell. Now that he's returned, we see him being a lot more gentle with her and spending more time to talk and things like that. He's no longer stressed about keeping his dark side hidden from her, now he's just trying to make amends for what Angelus did. Throughout this whole process of Angel coming back from hell and nursing him back to health, Buffy is relating to him in a way that she can't relate to anyone else in the world (except maybe Faith?) Angel sees the evils of the world and because of his soul feels compelled to fight them, and he actually CAN. All Buffy's other friends maybe want to join the fight but they're in horrible danger when they do because they have no supernatural powers. Angel on the other hand knows what it's like to be totally alone, harboring the responsibility of fighting evil with no end in sight. And I think even his darkness and "mystery" has always spoken to Buffy in the sense that her life now revolves entirely around death and darkness and violence and secrecy, through no fault of her own. Angel is the only person who's life is also solely about death and fighting evil because although Buffy's other friends may help her patrol and stuff, they also have their own lives. At any point they could just STOP fighting and it would be acceptable because they have no moral obligation to fight and they have no secret identity to protect. It was also not Angel's fault that he was turned into Angelus. Angel never said "yeah, vampirism, sign me up!" Nor was it his idea to get his soul back. But Angel is now forced to live for eternity seeing evil around every corner and his soul/conscience forces him to atone for sins he literally was in no control of. Having all control over your life taken away is something else Buffy can relate to, so I can understand that connection she feels towards him.
RNR
2022-02-06 00:53:11 +0000 UTC(Since Joss realized how much $$$ there was in the super-couple, that's when. But stories are better when they don't think about such things, IMO.)
Jessica Roth
2022-01-19 17:03:34 +0000 UTCAbsolutely. Buffy's entire "give me time" growth arc was about the journey from not being able to kill Evil Angel (much fun though the kick was) to being able to send Good Angel to (a) Hell, because that's what was needed. Now she's all of a sudden lying to everyone because protecting Precious is the most important thing in her life? Huh, what? Since when?
Jessica Roth
2022-01-19 17:02:31 +0000 UTCItās all good. I make it a point not to assume intention or attitude in text threads. We all have our things that just kind of eat at us. Happy watching!
Brandon Scott
2022-01-14 04:31:38 +0000 UTCDarcie, the way you feel about this Willow/Xander plotline is very much the way I felt about Angel even *existing* this season the first time I watched it. It's not so bad this time around, but back in the '90s, it almost led me to abandon the show, and I admit that it still irritates me. Every time we cut to an Angel scene, I'm rolling my eyes and thinking: "Oh my God, why are we still doing this?! Why is Buffy back to being "I have no choice!" Bad Eggs Buffy? Didn't we resolve this last season? Why is Buffy regressing? Why won't they let last season's development stick? Why are the writers doing this to me? WHY AREN'T YOU IN HELL, ANGEL?! And why are you always so sweaty, it's totally disgusting; put on a damned shirt, will ya?" I mean, don't get me wrong, I find the Willow/Xander stuff painful as well. I just sort of like it anyway, because you know. Messy bitch, loves drama, all of that. The messy bitch part of my personality overwhelms the rest for this episode, though. I like the Angel stuff in this episode because it causes painful drama, and I'm all about that. And at least he's doing something other than hanging around half-naked \with that gormless expression on his face.
SK Elkins
2022-01-14 04:22:37 +0000 UTCFair enough. It's become a weird peeve of mine because of how many times I've seen other unspoiled reactors actually *reprimanded* in comments for not using that terminology, even though it hasn't appeared on the show (unsoulled S2 Angel calls himself "Angel," as do his vampire buddies most of the time). You weren't doing that at all, and it is a convenient shorthand, I guess. So sorry if I seemed to be snapping at you.
SK Elkins
2022-01-14 04:16:09 +0000 UTCMaybe, SK. I donāt really have an opinion on calling him Angel or Angelusā¦.honestly the only reason I do it is because itās easier that writing āsoulless angelā and āensouled angelā OR āangel with a soulā and āangel without a soulā. Itās just so much less work. I donāt think thereās any deeper meaning to the names. Like you said, he himself calls himself angelus in war zone. BUT I would suggest that he only did that because the name Angelus still carries weight in the vampire world and he was trying to intimidate that group of vampires. Just a thought.
Brandon Scott
2022-01-14 04:01:43 +0000 UTCThis may be somewhat beside the point (and a month late besides), but I'd just like to point out for a moment that this whole thing of calling the character "Angel" when he has a soul and "Angelus" when he doesn't is kind of weird when we're still early in S3. Like, it's not actually a canonical thing at this stage of the game. Just sayin'.
SK Elkins
2022-01-14 03:55:39 +0000 UTCLOL i had to say it, moment was just too good :P AND OMG im glad someone caught the other gwen references hahaha! when i was editing i was like NO ONE WILL KNOW WHAT I MEAN BY MISS GOOP but here we are lol thanks so much teresa!!
darciesnothere
2021-12-18 18:05:48 +0000 UTCi agree i think she needs her own watcher i just dont want her to leave and im seeelllfffiiish! haha but maybe we could convince the new watcher to stay! (although i think 2 slayers in one town is probably against the point?) either way, hopefully she doesn't go too soon! i want to get to know her a lot more!
darciesnothere
2021-12-18 18:04:39 +0000 UTCoooooh WAIT we have a fight record?! omg.... i love this!
darciesnothere
2021-12-18 18:03:39 +0000 UTCLOL true!
darciesnothere
2021-12-18 18:03:13 +0000 UTCIām with you! I stay mad at Xander! I totally lolād when you said, āBuffy, I didnāt know you could do thatā! Also the Gwen Stefani, Gwyneth Paltrowā¦ššš I agree that everyone has valid points in the argument about Angel, but I still feel that Xander does have selfish motives. He is very possessive of every girl in his life. He wants Angel dead so badly and I donāt believe itās all because of what Angelus did. I think he just wants him out of the picture! Anyway, what a great reaction! I love watching with you!
Teresa Schultz
2021-12-12 00:11:23 +0000 UTCā¦ iāve considered deleting just about everything Iāve written here and just ending it but Iām not sure if I should do that or not. So Iām going to leave it but Iām going to move the sentence to the front, to the very top of this comment and say that, whether itās believable or not at this point, I really donāt wanna argue. Iāve had this discussion so many times with so many people and it just spins around in a circle no matter how much I try to avoid it, it always ends up back at the same place. With somebody telling me why Spike wasnāt like other vampires or why heās redeemable or capable of being more than just a vampire or whatever. And thatās not even the point of this. Thatās not where we started. But it always ends up back there because people say things like, ā the spike Iāve seen on screen appears to have a general tendency to be direct sometimes thatās a flawā¦ But other times, in my opinion a bit of a virtue.ā Whatās most interesting to me is that, the beginning of this conversation had nothing to do with Spike at all. But it always ends up there. And it always ends up with the opinions that I spoke of in my original comment here that we canāt even really talk about because there are spoilers involved. And itās pointless. Itās just pointless. So hereās my comment, take it for what itās worth or donāt read it all. Whatever suits you best. At the end of the day please just know that I donāt really mean any disrespect, anything I say that sounds snarky really is just a joke. Thatās all it is, itās a joke. Because this is a hypothetical conversation about fictional characters. I donāt mean to upset you and Iām not trying to insult you. These are just my thoughts. You are more than welcome to your own opinion and thatās fine. ā¦my original comment is as follows: Oh youāre right, because, sure he may murder people, but at least he doesnāt torture them first - not because he has mercy or anything but he doesnāt torture them first because heās simply impatient and impulsive and not much one for foreplay. š³ā¦That is quite the virtue. Lol I donāt mean to posit that I have any superior traits to anyone. There are just some things that donāt seem like much of a question to me. And when people of certain perspectives work such convoluted mathematics in order to turn one thing into another, such as someone claiming that being rash, impulsive, impatient - particularly in the murdering of other people - is actually him being ādirectā and is somehow a virtue, well in those cases I just donāt see the sense in arguing the point. Itās kind of like trying to argue conservation of motion with a flat-earther. At a certain point you just have to accept that the conversation isnāt going to go anywhere. About the topic that we are supposed to be talking about, for your assertion that Buffy was being merciful to Ford in anyway to make any kind of sense you would have to make a couple of Pretty big assumptions. One being that spike would keep his word at all and turn him. Two, you would have to completely ignore the reality Buffy Expressed to Ford about what it means to die and become a vampire. Her argument against him doing this completely invalidates any sense that letting him go through with it was a conscious act of mercy on her part. And third, you would have to assume that he was in his right mind in even the broadest sense of the word. He had a brain tumor. He had been in pain for a while. He obviously wasnāt well. This is turning into one of those things that just cannot be justified. There is no scenario in which allowing him to be murdered by a room full of vampires would be considered just and certainly not merciful. Aside from the fact that you have no way to know if Spike will even keep his word and turn him ā not to mention that she would have to kill him immediately anyway ā but beyond that, you would have to assume that his death would be quick and painless as you assert that it was. What guarantees would you have of that? And if they had come back and found, instead of a body with a couple of holes in his neck, an eviscerated corpse with limbs torn off and intestines sprayed all over the place, if thatās what they had found would she still have been justified? Would it still have been an act of mercy? And itās true that that didnāt happen, but are you telling me that itās beyond the realm of possibility? That a room full of angry vampires were guaranteed to kill him quickly? Iām just trying to understand your reasoning. But, itās OK. Iām done with that now. Do you have your view on it and Iām not likely to change that and I guarantee you, on this, youāre not going to change mine (see? No claims to a superior open mindedness here). So allow me to express an appreciation for the conversation between myself and another buffy fan and end this conversation gracefully. Once again Iāll say that I hope to meet you again in the comments on a topic that both of us can agree upon
Brandon Scott
2021-12-11 19:59:48 +0000 UTCIt was very nice of you to give Giles such a snazzy helmet too bad he didnāt wear it this episode š Itās a shame I think Faith actually liked Post. I think she does need her own watcher though. Willow seems to be the only one that feels bad about the cheater. Strangely that stop her from cheating but at least she feels bad about it.
Sarah
2021-12-11 19:41:53 +0000 UTCā¦his "I'll help you beat Angel" pledge to Buffy, turning out to be more like "I'm taking Dru the first chance I get and too bad if Angel kills you") but he usually doesn't see the point in lying for lying's sake. He made the deal, he keeps the deal. Unless something better comes along. And besides, he'd just gotten his butt whooped on Halloween because he "played with his food" rather than killing Lady Buffy when he had the chance. So I'm thinking that he had Dru finish off Ford and do the siring, had the minions bust down the door, and just scarpered on home at first chance. No extensive Ford-torture needed. (Besides, there could have been something good on the TV that night, so he didn't want to take more time than necessary, lol.)
Jessica Roth
2021-12-11 19:34:18 +0000 UTC(It is perhaps a touch off-putting when you speak of "peopleā¦who have pretty much made up their minds". If you're displaying a superior degree of open-mindedness, I may have missed it. Just saying.) As for Ford's death, feel free to insert a "relatively" in front of "painless", if you choose. It is the death Ford himself wanted, the one he explicitly told Buffy he preferred to six months with his tumor. ("No. I'm not going out that way.") And I know that Spike got his nickname because he had a preferred method of tortureā¦but the Spike I've seen on screen appears to have a general tendency to be direct. Sometimes that's a flaw (as when Angel taunts Spike about being sexually inadequate because he doesn't understand how Drusilla enjoys foreplay), but othertimes, it's IMO a bit of a virtue. So yes, Spike could have settled in for a evening's torture with the boys, Ford's screams making up for the blood of the Shelter Club patrons who had just escapedā¦but I don't see that. I think he put the minions to work breaking down the door (won't do much good to be stuck there come morningā¦) and he gave Drusilla her dinner to make up for her near-stake experience. This also has the benefit of keeping his word. Not that he's hugely honest (
Jessica Roth
2021-12-11 19:29:43 +0000 UTCYour
MattyIce777
2021-12-11 04:08:12 +0000 UTCā¤ļø
Eric Hoover
2021-12-11 01:24:25 +0000 UTCJust to be extra clear, Jess, Iām not going to debate the āAngelās Soulā issue or his level of culpability. Thereās just no point anymore when Iām talking to people in the fandom who have pretty much made up their minds. What I will attempt to rebut is this idea that Buffy leaving Ford locked in a basement with a dozen hungry, angry vampires (including Spike and DRUCILLA, who isnāt exactly known for NOT torturing people and none of whom would likely let him die easy) that this was in any way leaving him to a āpainlessā deathā¦ā¦.WHAT??? Lol, Iām sorry. I just donāt see that. She left him because her priority was in getting all the other innocent people out and to safety. She could have tried to force her hand but, again I say, basement, one slayer, a dozen hungry vampires. I always read this as more of a, āyou made your bed, now lie in itā situation rather than a, āI will spare him his slow, painful death by tumor and instead grant him a less-slow, torturous death by angry vampire mob.ā But, yeahā¦ thatās JMO
Brandon Scott
2021-12-10 21:00:54 +0000 UTCI really, REALLY don't want to blame the Irish kid for drinking Darla's blood and letting the demon in, regardless of "show me your world" being something of an invitation. He had no way of knowing what was happening, and probably no power to resist. Just as I don't want to blame Jesse (who died because he didn't let Cordelia crush his spirit) or beautifully messed up Sheila (who wouldn't have thought there were actual dangerous guys out there) or sweet Theresa, who heard a growl and didn't realize that the true beast was right in front of her.
Jessica Roth
2021-12-10 20:47:20 +0000 UTCI should point out that I personally believe. the death penalty is ALWAYS wrong. And that when Enyos tells Jenny that they serve vengeance, not justice, he's admitting that the Tribe is letting their emotions dictate their decisions. Butā¦Buffy's job is to preserve life. She has literally given her life to save others. If the Angelus demon cannot be permanently suppressed, if the demon will never tire of killing, it's her responsibility to stop it from doing any more damage. Her own emotions and Angel's good intentions can't enter into it. Perhaps the demon can change (Spike says demons don't change, but he's not necessarily an automatic authority)ā¦but it ALREADY spent 100 years living with Angel in control, feeling everything Angel felt ("She made me feel like a real human being", as he says in "Innocence") and it didn't give the demon a new perspectiveā¦it just made it angrier. I can't see how Buffy can take that risk. I mean, Buffy could have saved Ford. She could have made Spike wake him up and shoo him out the door with Marvin and Joan and all the other wannabes. But she gave him the mercy of a painless death. And she could have let him live as a vampire, the way he'd planned. But she couldn't let him hurt people, her own feelings for him aside. And so she put a stake in his heart and killed him herself, which I can't imagine didn't pain her. So I would hope she could do the same utilitarian mercy for Angel, her feelings (again) aside. To be fair, I'm agog that either Buffy or Angel would want to resume their relationship, anyhow. I mean, Angel tried to kill her mom. Yes, yes, he was "off his meds" and "he's better now", but still. She's only got the one mom. (Even if it is Joyce.) And Angel just spent CENTURIES suffering in (a) Hell, with Buffy at least part of the cause. I would think those memories would kill any potential bliss at being near her. (As I once wrote in a snarky mood: "There's other 14-year-old blonde girls to stalk. Go to Kansas or something.") But, as always, JMO.
Jessica Roth
2021-12-10 20:37:58 +0000 UTCAll else aside, an excellent episode for violence. I believe it sets a new record for fights in one episode: 1. "Synchronized Slaying" in the teaser. 2. Lagos d. Faith 3. Buffy d. Lagos 4. Faith d. Angel (and OMG that stunt work!) 5. Buffy v. Faith, a draw 6. Buffy d. Post And that doesn't count Post clonking Giles, Post clonking Angel, or Angel tossing her around once he recovers. Fun, fun, for everyone! I wonder if having actual EMTs come for Giles is more of Andrew's tongue-in-cheek acknowledgements? First time we've seen that, I think.
Jessica Roth
2021-12-10 16:59:54 +0000 UTCSo there it isāthe strong case in favor of just going ahead and killing Angel. (The only thing I would add is that to the extent that Angelās soul is a different āentityā than Angel or Angelus, subjecting that soul to an eternity living with the demon, feeling the guilt for what it did, is kind of cruel and unusual punishment.) I think the argument Jessica has presented is a very compelling one, and the reasons I ultimately disagree with it also have more to do with personal values than the actual merits of the argument. In fact Iād go so far as to say that itās hard to think of a reason to disagree with it *other* than a hardline opposition to capital punishment or retributive justice in generalā¦ which is not a super common position, although it does happen to be mine. I guess one point that complicates it is the question of to what extent Angel is culpable for the things he did while he didnāt have a soul. If heās not culpable, then the argument still remains somewhat compelling, but to accept it you have to believe that itās sometimes okay to kill someone who didnāt actually do anything wrong to avert some greater future catastrophe (which is also not a super common position, and is definitely *not* mine haha). I do think he is culpable, though, at least partially. First, his whole character makes very little sense if he isnāt. Why should he feel guilt or seek redemption for something heās not responsible for? Second, like Jessica pointed out, the demon that did all those things *is still in there*. Angelus and Angel may not be exactly the same being, but Angelus is a part of Angelāsuppressed, perhaps, by the conscience that comes from Angelās human soul, but still present. And finally, Angel himself certainly seems to think he is. Whenever he speaks of the things he did in the past, he doesnāt say āAngelus did x,ā he says, āI did x.ā That means something. (Thereās also an argument to be had over to what extent human Angel was responsible for his becoming a vampire in the first place. I havenāt made up my mind on that questionāit depends on whether someone could reasonably resist drinking after being bitten and whether you can really blame someone who is literally being murdered for taking the only way out that is offered to them, even if it wonāt *really* be them that comes back and even if it will predictably cost the lives of countless others. I will say that holding him responsible for that also seems like it would imply that all humans who become vampires and werenāt just force-fed the vampire blood that made them turn should also be held responsible, which might have some unfortunate implications.) I donāt know why I just typed so much presenting and then arguing against an argument against an argument I donāt actually ultimately agree with. I guess I just find this aspect of the show really interesting! :D
ghostofdurruti
2021-12-10 02:46:34 +0000 UTCMy favorite scene of this episode is the last one. Faith almost reaches out to Buffy, and Buffy almost goes back in to talk to Faith. It's a real "paths untaken" moment.
Bud Haven
2021-12-10 02:31:28 +0000 UTCLol, thanks Jess. Ghost had me doubting myself by there you are in the clinch. I personally donāt believe in capital punishment or an eye for an eye but the world is full of disparate views. Iām sure you are a lovely human and I respect your right to express yours. The only think I feel I should clarify is your comment on my sharing my views while warning against feeling intimidated by the opinions of others. One, my opinions, I think, weāre presented in a fairly passive and non-threatening way with a baked in concession that her views may be different than mine and I am 100% ok with that. And two, the views I am warning her about are heavily informed by other views on topics that she canāt know about and, therefore, canāt take into consideration. That is mostly what I was warning against. I hope that clears up my motives. But whether it does or not, just to make this clear, about my views on the subject youāre addressing, I wonāt be debating this in these threads. You feel how you feel and thatās absolutely fine. Thereās no point in arguing. I wish you happy watching and hope to talk again on a topic about which we can find some common ground.
Brandon Scott
2021-12-10 00:52:08 +0000 UTCI kind of love the way this show occasionally deals with its sloppy world-building with The Watcherās Council ā this time with a firmly tongue-in-cheek, āThey swear there was a memo.ā Flimsy, but witty, and kind of brilliant.
Andrew Pulrang
2021-12-10 00:46:38 +0000 UTCYes, if I'm not being too "irrational" for your taste, might I point out that, to my eyes, YOU are encouraging Darcie to view the series through your own prism. Especially as regards a concept that, AFAICT, has been mentioned a grand total of ONCE, so far. Just saying. (And everything I've said about Angel has only to do with the episodes we've seen thus far. My future thoughts are for the future. Honestly.)
Jessica Roth
2021-12-10 00:40:29 +0000 UTCā¦haven't gotten to know what Oz thinks, on almost any issue. Which is why I find him frustrating.) (Almost as frustrating as these comments posting before I want them to and my being too afraid to try editing. I really have to go back to typing them out and pasting them in the comment box. My apologies.)
Jessica Roth
2021-12-10 00:14:08 +0000 UTCIt's not that Angel "might" "hurt somebody" "in the future". It's that the curse is now PROVEN breakable (everybody who gave S1 Angel a pass had no idea that could happen) and WHEN that happens, be it next year or 100 years from now, Angel almost certainly WILL. KILL an enormous amount of people. And it's not as if that's the only argument; do Angel's family and his families' friends and their families and Drusilla and her family and the Romany girl and her tribe and Jenny and her uncle and Theresa and Kendra and the woman in the alley and so, so many others not deserve ANY justice? Is Angel just going to get chance after chance after chance to kill and kill as long as some girl finds him attractive? Really? The demon isn't gone; it's RIGHT THERE. It was just snarling at Mrs. Post and Faith in this very episode. Yes, Angel thinks he can control it. He thought that before, too. Angel is now well over 100 years old. (His life in Ireland, pre-Darla, and 100 years from Romania until Buffy's birthday.) Isn't that enough of a life? Buffy won't live for 125+ years. Giles won't. Xander won't. Willow won't. Jenny sure afā¦ When does he stop getting a free pass, exactly? If he kills Willow next time, should Xander just shrug and be all "not his fault, let's do the curse again"? I, obviously, disagree. (Oz would probably also disagree. But we
Jessica Roth
2021-12-10 00:11:34 +0000 UTCOh absolutely haha :D
ghostofdurruti
2021-12-09 22:52:48 +0000 UTCLol, well yes from a utilitarian point of view I suppose there would be a strong case for that to be made. But I am reassured to see that youāre not a utilitarian, lol. From that perspective thereās an argument to be made that many of us should simply put ourselves out of our misery and Iām happy to learn that that view is not actually the one that you ascribe to in real life š. I appreciate the clarification. However, I will say that youāre not the first person whoās made that or a similar argument and I have very directly been told that they were not being hyperbolic or hypothetical. So there is that. This Buffy fandom is a diverse and interesting bunch. On that Iām sure we can all agreeš
Brandon Scott
2021-12-09 22:49:46 +0000 UTC"I see arguments even in this comment thread that we should kill Angel simply because he might hurt somebody in the future." --I think I'm the one who came closest to directly making that argument, and I wanted to clarify that I don't actually think that haha. I said there was a strong case to be made that it would be the right thing to do from a utilitarian perspective in the context of arguing that Xander had a point, which is not quite the same thing as actually agreeing with that case.
ghostofdurruti
2021-12-09 22:43:39 +0000 UTCAnother great video, and youāre getting into the good stuff now. Small word of caution: every time I watch a new reactor go through these storylines and I read the comments and assertions and judgments by the loyal members of the Buffy fandom, I am concerned of the pressure or influence that can be placed on a new viewer in a position where the others opinion is very important. Just be aware that many, many opinions - particularly opinions regarding angel and Buffyās relationship with and/or to him - are colored by other opinions that you cannot be made aware of at this point in your journey. There are events and happenings in any show at every stage that can fundamentally change the way one views the characters and storylines. Buffy is no different. However, one thing has always remained the same in my experience of re-watching and watching these commentary videos: those fans with a particular opinion or group of opinions on certain events to come tend to be overly critical, one might even say irrationally so, when it comes to the topics of this episode. I personally agree with you. After what happened with deadmanās party I see no reason that Buffy would feel safe in confiding in any of her friends about something as sensitive as this angel issue. Add to that the state he was in when he came back and Giles having such a complicated history with him, and I think her feeling as though she had no choice, however flawed, is very very humanā¦ Particularly 16-year-old girl in love human. What I will say is this, and Iām going to be in the minority here: but I personally didnāt like the writing of Giles in this episode. This isnāt the last time this will happen either, but we canāt talk about that (by āthatā I mean where I feel the writers misrepresented a character for the sake of a plot point. But in this particular instance, the only thing that has changed in Giles experience is the torture he suffered at the hands of Angelus in the mansion. At the end of season two, when Willow and Buffy first presented the spell that would re-ensoul angel, Giles was on, or at least leaning toward the side of, āyes, letās get his soul backā He had already killed Jenny. In fact, that was part of Gilesās rationale. He said, āre-ensouling Angel seems to have been Jennyās last wish.ā So what the writers are saying with this particular character choice is that he was willing to overlook the fact that Angelus had murdered Jenny, but a few hours of torture completely reversed his opinion. Not to mention, that the few hours of torture somehow made him forget that angel with a soul is not actually responsible for any of the actions committed by Angelus without a soul. I will definitely get some pushback on that point as well. All Iāll say is that Xanderās assertion that āI think a bunch of dead people actually constitutes a reasonā when trying to justify why he wants to kill Angel, makes zero sense. No one can argue that angelus killed many times more people before he got his soul the first time than he did during the events of season two. If the fact that his body was used by a demon to murder people was enough to justify killing him then they shouldāve killed him when they first found out that he was a vampire. What seems to get lost that the angels story, one of the metaphors that the show is so famous for pushing, is one of redemption. I see arguments even in this comment thread that we should kill Angel simply because he might hurt somebody in the future. I think, seemingly, it gets lost on people that the show is an allegory about growing up. Itās a metaphor for life. And last I checked, āGee, everything sucks and Iām sad and stuff, and itās possible that things will get even worse. So why even try?ā Is not a great philosophy for a living. š. But regardless of that, I just donāt think that Giles, being who he is and having gone through all the things that heās gone through, having learned what he knows of life and forgiveness and redemption. I just donāt think that him even endorsing that completely ill-advised āinterventionā is even remotely within his character. Anybody with any sense couldāve told you that was going to go badly. Once told by Xander he absolutely shouldāve sat Buffy down in a room, just the two of them, and talked it out. I suppose the writers want us to believe that he was so upset with Buffy that he didnāt care that this was going to devolve into a blaming session. There is no scenario in which that was going to go well and if anyone shouldāve had the foresight to know that it wouldāve been Giles. And yes I expect his feelings to be complicated but at the end of the day he shouldāve been able to walk away from that room with that mindset that he expressed to the others. However Ill-advised, Buffyās actions can be understood. What makes it worse is that the writers also seemingly wanted us to believe that the constant ridicule from Mrs. Post colored his reaction to the news that Buffy had been lying to him. I just donāt think Giles is that petty. But thatās how I justified in my head canon. The mean old British lady had Giles out of sorts and so he acting out of character. Thatās all Iāve got lol. Anyway great video. I figure Iām gonna get some hate and your comments for this one but itās just important for me to say to you, a new viewer to the show, keep an open mind donāt give in to the overwhelming and obviously passionate opinions of anyone here in the Buffy fandomā¦ Including meā¦ And just allow yourself to enjoy the journey through the show.
Brandon Scott
2021-12-09 22:16:44 +0000 UTC
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