Sacred Symbols+, Episode 455 | The Myth of the Modern Audience with Marek Tyminski

Yet again, great interviewing from my dude ! Doesn't hurt to have a well spoken guest :) wonderful

Kladknee

Lords of the fallen isn't good. Thats its biggest problem.

Jacob Lesperance

Fantastic conversation. Agree on a lot. Based.

BakerShop

A bit too in the weeds for me, but still glad you had the conversation.

Casting Obesaga on Chris so he becomes wider than he is tall, chode body status

For example - I agree with this sentiment here.

Pretty Much Satan

Tell that to Evan

Connor

Honestly, having spent a few years as therapist working with populations that are quite different from my own cultural experience, this rings the most true. It’s unfortunate, but the reality is many people had to take the punches socially for many years and stay in silence.

Jacob

You know, maybe the reason it feels like the U.S. has gone backwards on issues like racism or sexism—especially when compared to the ’80s—is because those things were just more accepted back then. People didn’t talk about them as much, or they were expected to just deal with it. Nowadays, more people are speaking up and pushing back, so it feels like these issues are everywhere—but really, we’re just finally addressing them more openly and consistently. Minorities are claiming a seat at the table, and those who’ve always held all the power are starting to feel pushed aside—mostly because they’re afraid of losing that control. Meanwhile, some apologists love to highlight how colorful, vibrant, and multicultural the U.S. is, without actually confronting the deep-rooted issues that prevent it from becoming a truly just and inclusive society.

Romeo

Yawn

Josh Ashley

This guy is a clown. I don't care what someone calls the character types or whatever, but at least be honest with your intentions. He claimed on Twitter that the only reason they had 'Type A/B' to begin with was due to mysterious 'industry pressure' ignoring the fact it's his game and he can do what he wants with it. He's only pivoting now because the game still isn't profitable and this whole thing is a hail mary to get in the good graces of the 'anti woke' crowd so they'll support the game. Like I said, just be honest about it and don't blame it on some ambiguous boogeyman.

Madsines

Interesting the comments on here that are lambasting the conversation and the begrudging of what it means in a broader sense; It’s everybody’s right to back what they want - but the smugness to think you’re morally superior because you are vying for a world in which Male/Female are replaced with Type A/B, then to try and gaslight people into thinking their assholes because their worldview doesn’t align with all that is connected with that; well, maybe you should really do a gut-check on just what kind of person you really are…

Pretty Much Satan

I am also a grown man with a job. Why are we changing language everyone uses, enforcing those changes, and gaslighting people into thinking it then doesn't matter after the fact? It's a slippery slope in my opinion and needs to be nipped in the bud.

Wesali

I had to turn this off after a while. I feel that guys like this and Stuttering Greg are just wasting people's time with these culture war talking points. I do not get upset when I see body type 1/2. am a grown man with a job

Kevin Abdul

If it’s not that big of a deal why do they keep going out of their way to do it? It’s not that anyone’s offended people are just noticing that it’s fucking weird

layoff’s enthusiast

I truly don’t understand how something as simple as male/female can cause confusion. How detached from reality do you have to be…. It’s pathetic

layoff’s enthusiast

Yes I’m too timid for the vigorous intellectual debates in the Last Stand Patreon comments

Stephen Lucey

Damn this was a frustrating conversation. It's just an hour of throwing around terms like, modern audience, woke and DEI without anyone having a consistent definition for any of these terms. And for guys like Grummz that's the point, you can literally slap these terms on anything as long as they stay vague (which is literally why even Colin had an eventual conflict with the guy). And the examples we get for pandering to much to the modern audiences are unfitting pride flags and using body types instead of gender? Baldur's Gate 3 pandered heavily to modern audiences. Does this mean it was successfull because they pandered, or did they just make an amazing game? But when the pandering happens in a game that sucks it is suddenly the only flaw that matters. Instead of bad story telling or lazy world building (although Colin usually recognizes this, which makes this convo all the more confusing).

Dennis

I'm sorry but you've got to be the most sensitive whiny snowflake to be offended by "body type", it doesn't negatively impact a single person on this planet, you have to be lying or beyond reason to be offended

Macro

Evan Westendorf more like Evan Walloftext am I right

Stephen Lucey

I bought this game day 1 but haven’t gotten around to it yet. I’m a slow gamer.

Michael

So many people got involved in anti-woke shit as a response to the morality hysterics of Kotaku and Polygon and Anita Sarkeesian, but are seemingly unable to see that they themselves have turned into the same hysterical people looking to label everyone and everything THEY dont agree with as morally wrong and sinister. Your "calling something Type A instead of Male is going to lead to male and female disappearing forever" is the same kind of energy as Anita saying killing a hooker in GTA is going to make dudes beat women. Its so far beyond reasonable to be absurd. Yet here you are. Please, resist the moral panic. Its all done by grifters and youre taking the bait.

Evan Westendorf

PairOfShuse

I mean, to each their own. I happen to think putting "Body type 1 and 2" in your game and being afraid to use the terms "male and female" which have been used to describe the 2 different genders that exist since the beginning of time is super cringe and pathetic. Seriously, the tactic of saying people are "cringe" for calling out this weirdness is so tired. Find a new argument.

Mike Held

This conversation was super cringe all round. Getting annoyed by stuff like a body type in a character creator being called “type 1” is pathetic

RenegerGraeme

They were 100% correct

Chris Evans

This was an hour of "woke bad" and vagueness.

Tim

Wow this actually pretty accurate, because it fits unto both extremes.

Dennis

“You’re absolutely right,” The Podcast.

Stephen Lucey

Daniel Vavra didn’t have to grovel before the anti-woke …just the opposite actually. That’s because he made one of the best games of all time. Unfortunately when you make the most mid souls-like though, your options are fewer. 👀

Zachary Beach

Racial tension in the US is higher than it has been in decades, absolutely. Can’t imagine arguing otherwise.

Dante B

Colin do you really think things were less racist and sexist back then or do you feel like for you it was lmao. There’s a big difference

Caleb Peacock

To me, the modern audience is anyone who cares or gets offended by the character creation one way or the other.

Paul Knickerbocker

So is the “modern audience” just the multicolored hair types? Or is it some other vague boogeyman? The lords of shadow update seems cool but I doubt people’s newfound interest stem from a silly character creator change.

Have you considered considering considerations considerately considerate

The anti-modern audience stuff that people bring up is just as insufferable as the "woke" stuff people complain about imo. I just rolled my eyes at pretty much every example Colin brought up. The fact that the dev was also very vague and not specific when talking about what the modern audience even is tells you a whole lot about said movement. I do appreciate the conversation. Would be interested to see if Colin balances this out w an interview that argues for the modern audience

Evan Westendorf

Great to hear someone in the game’s industry actually talk authentically for once

DD

Great podcast Colin. What he’s saying is so obvious it’s ridiculous the conversation even needs to be had but unfortunately this is where we find ourselves

Chris Evans

Just bought Lords of the Fallen based on this conversation. The deluxe edition is on sale right now, 75% off. $22 bucks.

Dante B

The bosses not being really hard and complexed is what really makes me like this game tbh. We have the other souls games for that but Lords of the Fallen looks and plays amazing on Pro especially since latest big update. LotF is on a level I don’t think From soft could do tbh, the umbral lamp mechanics along with the visuals is the crowning Jewel in this game.

Otacon

Looking forward to this one. A studio that has become entrenched in the culture war, and somehow become better off for it..

Wesali

I have beef with Lord of the Fallen. Not over any of the culture war stuff but over the game's bad performance. Wow that 2023 game is a disaster and can barely run. Performance so bad I can hardly take anyone seriously associated with that game talking about game development.

Powerman

Exactly the same boat as me, just finished this morning, also got the "do as you're told" ending. Pretty awesome game.

Dank Yharnam Nugz

We’re all trying to find the guy who did this it could literally be any one of us

Mason M

Who even makes up the "modern audience?" Is it a made up marketing term for blue haired weirdos in LA? Is it MAGA people screeching about woke? It just seems like a scapegoat term for bad design.

Less Brad Plis

As a fan of LOTF and observing from afar some of the recent hubbub surrounding the studios social media account, really looking forward to this one.

Stewy108

I just finished this game this morning, got the radiant ending. Imo I like it more than dark souls 1-3 because the gameplay is there and not insane hard bosses. I think Colin would like it if he tried it.

Otacon

Dude I love Lords of the Fallen, I'm well up for this. Thanks guys.

David Middleton

Lords of the Fallen is a great game. While its bosses don’t live up to the Dark Souls level of quality…the aesthetic of the world alone is so sick. Definitely worth a play for fans of the genre and they’ve put a lot of free updates into it since launch

TheWubbz

This is such a good get, I can’t wait.

layoff’s enthusiast