Supplementary Material 19: Critic-O-Rama with extra transdimensional alien demons

My main concern in buying a house is demon infestation.

RobotRouge

Late to this party, but sad Matt never figured out the answer to American public toilets - grocery stores. Best away from the most urban of urban areas. Also gas stations. From Utah, the home of one of the best gas station rest rooms in America. https://www.fox13now.com/news/local-news/northern-utah/gas-station-in-salt-lake-city-given-awarded-best-restroom-in-america

AnnieB

Once again, Matt and Chris answer the question -“ is it possible to be in love with two people at the same time?”

Debra Hotmer

I can’t get enough of your Joe Rogan small minded analysis. :)

Kimberly Beer

I think he is just Marxist! I love a bit of Marxism - it has produced some amazing philosophers, feminists and historians. In the actual world, however, it can be a bit tricky!

Nina Davies

I remember the Cyborg Manifesto from grad school. It seems to me that Matthew is going down a cultural Marxist path. He mentioned the situationists, Guy Debord, and the Society of the Spectacle in a recent episode. There is also one about Walter Benjamin, but I can’t access it because I’m not a Patreon.

Linda Sears

Paulo Freire, from the book in question: "But almost always, during the initial stage of the struggle, the oppressed, instead of striving for liberation, tend themselves to become oppressors, or “sub-oppressors.” The very structure of their thought has been conditioned by the contradictions of the concrete, existential situation by which they were shaped. Their ideal is to be men; but for them, to be men is to be oppressors. This is their model of humanity." I think Matthew is clearly saying that the Democratic Party is guilty of this manoeuvre. He is perhaps not saying it is a 'cult' but is guilty of top down manoeuvres that oppress. There was a time when international education for development programmes were based on Freire. There was the idea that people had to be politically awakened through literacy programmes. On the ground, however, people rather objected to being framed as being politically naive because they were 'illiterate'. Very weird for me, almost 40 years after writing a dissertation on this stuff, to find Matthew quoting it uncritically. On the ground, bottom up politics is great. But not if you believe people need to be liberated from 'false consciousness'. This causes them to feel condescended to. Hence Brexit and Trump. Working Class politics is as self-interested as any other politics. I really hope Matthew appreciates that he has stimulated such an interesting discussion!! The last time I had such a lively disagreement was on reading the Cyborg Manefesto - "are we literal cyborgs or is it a metaphor?". In this case too I think Matthew is using an analogy metaphorically.

Nina Davies

I think he was ultimately criticizing capitalism. His view appears to be that the Democratic Party has not protected people from capitalism’s bad effects, which is why he calls it “irredeemable.” He then says that people who still believe in the Democratic Party are mistaken. Calling people mistaken in their beliefs is quite different than saying they are members of a cult, but maybe he was just softening his wording in order to maintain friendships with people who still believe in the Democratic Party. If he does think the Democratic Party is a cult, that is quite an extreme position to take.

Linda Sears

A good Medium article about the lab leak theories in the NYT: https://medium.com/@K_G_Andersen/its-not-about-getting-the-scoop-it-s-about-getting-it-right-origin-of-covid-19-my-emails-7447e59d79e3

Angelo Lillo

This is an essay in which Matthew says he is using an extended analogy. It is not a mistake that he is using the same language; it is the style of writing used when drawing an analogy.

Nina Davies

Minor thing but "paleocons" don't really have anything to do with seed oils lol. They aren't conservatives who do paleo diets, they're a strain of American conservatism that is typically contrasted with neocons. Paleocons are generally considered to be more focused on social conservatism and skeptical of the interventionism that neocons support.

Subodh Kafle

It’s good to hear different perspectives. I appreciate Matt and Chris being willing to question Matthew’s ideas. It’s honestly more stimulating intellectually than the crazy usual suspects. Although those ones are entertaining!

Linda Sears

The choice of the word irredeemable for both a cult and the Democratic Party was a bad one. I still don’t think he was calling the Democratic Party a cult. Since he has done a good deal of work defining cults, making that comparison in a serious way would be quite shocking. I agree the analogy needed to be less convoluted to avoid creating the confusion we’ve had with the episode. My sister and my husband listened to the episode separately before I asked them what they thought, and neither of them saw him saying the Democratic Party was a cult. They both thought the analogy was about online dynamics among traumatized people where splits will occur as people process their trauma from different places.

Linda Sears

"And I think the most common fault line was between people who felt that the religious group was irredeemable and those who continued to appreciate its teachings or values. And that first group insisted that the religious organization should be demolished and would accuse the second group of being apologists. Group two was betraying survivors and laying the groundwork for the abuse to continue. It was hard to argue with that." ... "Full disclosure number two, I'm a leftist who believes the Democratic Party is irredeemable. As insurmountable a task as it seems, I believe there's no real option but a rebuild, beginning with going back to school and reading Pedagogy of the Oppressed by Paulo Freire. I'm not so disenchanted by democracy that I'm going to forget that I share space with liberals who I love, but who I believe are mistaken. Both of those things, the conviction that everything must change, and the ability to live with those who can't imagine changing everything, have to coexist for me."

Christopher Kavanagh

Belated 2 cents on Matthew Remski post-election meditation. I agree that trying to find a strict 1:1 analogy between a cult and some election-related entity (Dems, MAGA, etc.) just falls apart. But a direct analogy may not be what Remski intended? Rather, I think Remski is operating here a bit more on vibes, to use a guru-related term. He finds some parallels with election responses in lefty spaces and cult survivor online communities and runs with it. Perhaps without realizing that listeners could extrapolate the religious cults to political concepts. Again, maybe he meant a direct analogy, maybe not. Unfortunately it resulted in confusion. It’s healthy that Chris & Matt feel comfortable offering critique to historically similarly aligned podcasters. Collegial critique is customary in their world of academia, and I hope the Conspirituality team accept the commentary with openness.

Nancy Hale

Ok, but he didn't say that it needs the democratic party needs to be pulled down "like an irredeemable cult". That's something you added. And he definitely didn't say that it needs to be torn down because it is like a cult.

Normal Name

Thank you. Alas.

Kerena

Yeah I have encountered a lot of old timers climbing hard. Definitely can be done. I think they've developed such elastic tendons that they are pretty well injury proof. I was told that it takes 2 years to build the strength in your finger tendons so you're less vulnerable to finger injuries. That seems about right to me. Bouldering is generally harder on the fingers because it promotes more dynamic movements. Don't get suckered into throwing yourself at those small finger pockets and razor crimps. Maybe older climbers are better at avoiding injuries because they're less prone to trying such cocky moves. At certain point i just decided to mostly stick to the ropes to give my fingers and shoulders a break. I also think it is good for developing better form early on. It is easier early on to develop good form on the longer roped routes than on the short dynamic boulder problems in my opinion.

Bernt Goodson

PLEASE DO THIS

Billy Brouse

I'm glad that with you guys, no one is safe! 😉 Not even the friends from the Conspirituality Podcast! ;) ;)

Joanna Go

jesus fucking christ Rogan is a fucking moron

Matt

Weird that the leaders of the USA are extremely conservative then compared to other rich countries.

Tobias nilsson

Fair enough, colour me infected. I’m saying it this way from now on, and woe betide those who try to ride off with our goats 😎

Ben Holland

I think it might be common enough to be a variant!

Christopher Kavanagh

I've yet to have a finger injury so fingers crossed but I see a lot of climbers over here who are 60+.

Christopher Kavanagh

I scoffed at the idea that you can treat the curriculum in private schools in Manhattan and all schools in America as interchangeable and you still can't. The segment was arguing if you make a claim you should be specific about what you are arguing, which was the opposite of what Sam was doing. He wanted to be hyperbolic and only revised his claim because he was called on it. If the argument is that what is taught in elite schools in Manhattan is really important because that is where the future leaders and elite come from... ok. I don't think that is a great argument either but it is a different argument.

Christopher Kavanagh

Anyway, Matt says Matt-trix, you can say gets on my goat, catchphrases confirmed 👍

Ben Holland

In the interests of critical feedback it’s ’gets my goat’. But don’t change it, I much prefer the phrase this way. Deeper symbolism and imagery 😅

Ben Holland

I agree on the the argument against Peterson and Pageau. They have a ridiculous way of reasoning. I was taken a bit back by Chris usage of the Jonestown folks as an example of someone who were willing to die because of their beliefs. Though I am sure that is the case for some, I have also understood that there was a lot of coercion there as well.

Marfolini

At 2 hr 12 min or so Chris brings up Sam Harris’ mention of “woke” ideas being taught in elite private schools and sort of scoffed at it, like “well that’s not representative of all schools in America”. I think the issue is that future shakers and movers of American industry, policy, and diplomacy are coming out of these institutions. Like it or not, what gets taught to kids in Oklahoma doesn’t have the same impact as what is taught to kids at elite prep schools, which are effectively feeders for Ivy League colleges, and so on. A minor point, but something that may not be obvious to a non-American.

Alex A

I’ve read Goodrick-Clarke’s books on esotericism of the proto-Nazi movements of Germany and of the Neo-Nazi right. This book looks like a good fit to fill in the middle part of a trilogy! Added to the list

Brice F

Good to hear. I hope you prove me wrong. Speaking as someone has endured his fair share finger injuries from climbing, all of which came from the bouldering gym, I suggest taking it slow. Tendon injuries suck

Bernt Goodson

Yes

Christopher Kavanagh

Already recovered! 💪

Christopher Kavanagh

The Bouldering injury was inevitable. At least your finger tendons are still intact. I suggest getting on a rope and saving those old bones and tendons. Leave to bouldering to the 20 something year-olds who still feel indestructible

Bernt Goodson

If Chris and Matt made short vids for tik tok or instagram, with a 20 second clip of Rogan (or whoever) talking their rubbish, then a 40 second analysis/deconstruction/takedown, I think they'd be so popular, esp with the demographic who are most persuaded by these gurus' nonsense.

Tom Adams

Yes, Nina, too many ideas in one place can be confusing. I think he was saying that some Democrats/lefty/liberals will be better off while others are going to have large challenges to face (a, perhaps, overexaggerated analogy here would be the fate of Jews as opposed to Gentiles in Nazi occupied areas), and, yes, those challenges often relate to positions of privilege. The use of the word "irredeemable" twice in the episode, both when talking about the abusive religious group and in talking about the Democratic Party, gives support to Chris's view that he is making a clear analogy between a dangerous cult and the Democratic Party. I think that wording was accidental and unfortunate (or maybe it was a Freudian slip?) One reason I disagree with the interpretation that he is making a moral distinction between those who gained in the cult (the privileged) versus those who did not is because I did not see him making the case that the more traumatized are better or more evolved. It seemed to me that he was saying that those who were treated worse by the cult will be the ones with the "stickiest" takes that feed into Outrage Porn and gain them clout and status in the online support group, which could be compared to the more progressive people in the Democratic party making claims that they are already struggling and will be under attack during the Trump presidency while the centrists will be better protected. Perhaps, there was an underlying argument that the most evolved are those who see the nature of the abusive capitalist system, which the Democratic party is part of, and these enlightened ones are those who know to "log the fuck off" by leaving the online support group. From my perspective, the reason the word cult was used in the episode is because the kind of online support groups Matthew is familiar with are those of ex-cult members. One could substitute an online support group of bereaved parents of gun violence and make a similar point that some will feel more traumatized because they lost a child to murder as opposed to an accident, or they had big medical bills that led them to bankruptcy and so on. Parents whose children were shot by the police are probably going to have more political takes about gun violence than those whose child died by suicide, and, predictably, wedges could develop within the group, especially if some group members are police or family members of police. The parents of kids who died from police shootings will likely have the "stickier," more outrage-inducing stories that could dominate the group and bring them into positions of power within the online group. The people in the online group will be united by opposition to gun violence, but where they land on gun laws, the police, medical care for people with mental illnesses, etc., will differ. Since we have these different interpretations of what Matthew was saying, you and Chris have a good point that Matthew neded to be more careful in his communication in this episode.

Linda Sears

I agree that he opened himself to being misunderstood because the word cult is such a strong one that it is hard not to think about it as being part of the analogy he is making as the episode goes on. I examined the written transcript closely because it is easier to process written communication for me than listening. I understood what he is saying as someone who engages in online lefty/liberal spaces where infighting and blaming each other is a real thing after something like a traumatic election loss (the "second arrow" is the inevitable recriminations that happen as people try to find someone to blame for their pain). At any rate, the warning to not fall into these pitfalls is why I found what he was saying valuable since the infighting really turns me off because it is unproductive and causes more pain. Chris's view that Matthew presents himself as part of the "more evolved group" gains strength if you are looking at Matthew's overall leftist progressive posture on the podcast. He can come across as somewhat condescending or narrow in his focus, though his heart is in the right place. For me the Democratic party as cult didn't make logical sense in this particular episode (regardless of his other statements), because Democrats in general are traumatized by the election loss. If the party is the cult, then why would its members, those who are suffering because of the election loss, be compared to online cult recovery groups? Wouldn't they be former members of the Democratic party rather than current ones? And where is MAGA in this equation? Or is he arguing that the Democratic party is like online support systems created to help deal with MAGA that harm rather than help? I think the second interpretation may be more likely. It's quite possible that I may be suffering from the desire to find a logical argument where there might be none.

Linda Sears

Hi Emma. Thanks. I've still got my NZ citizenship! I'm not bailing ship yet. I hold out hope that we have enough smart people willing to push back to keep our democracy going. And I look to people who've been in or currently are in far worse situations for strength. The people of Ukraine are inspiring.

Linda Sears

Once something is documented it takes on an air of "final statement" rather than "batting an idea around ".

Allan Malcolm McPherson

Chris's comments about Joe Rogan being weak and paranoid is spot on. Most of the opinions he espouses can be traced to insecurities he has, specifically, those of being a pot smoker who lives a very sheltered life.

Jean-François Melançon

Chris, do you say ‘gets on my goat’?

Ben Holland

Wonderful episode, this saved in in the 2 hour queue for passport control at JFK

Catherine Crute

Again, I have no expertise in oils and it is not my aim to discuss the oil part. My point can certainly be seen as pedantic because we all know or believe that it was just a tiny slip and that what he really meant is what you are saying. I believe so too. But imagine it was Bret or Jordan making the point. Do you think Chris would have not jumped on it? That was my aim, just point at the small inconsistency in the argument itself. And if you go back to the top I framed it as a small mistake ("they are not perfect"). Nothing more. And nothing to do with seed oil per se. I do thank all your data as it's interesting and I learned about seed oils.

Koidestroyer

I'd add to that while individual types of oils might have different human health impacts there's also overall population health to consider. Seed oils are very sable and resistant to rancidity. When feeding a large population at scale they have serious advantages over something like tallow. I say this as somebody who uses a fair amount of tallow, suet and lard in their own cooking (home and professionally) it's not a practical option for societies as large and food insecure as we have today. No matter what, the worst dietary option is not being fed.

Allan Malcolm McPherson

I do understand your point, I just think it's a bit on the pedantic side. The point (as I saw it) of the humans consuming seeds was to put a light on these oils since forever. And that point was being made by somebody not a member of The National Lipid Society. The counter was that processing and extraction of these oils is novel and untested. Which it is not. And it has / is being tested for health effects constantly. Mustard seed oil is not considered safe for consumption in Canada and potentially harmful volatiles in rapeseed oil have basically been breed out of the plant. Hence we have canola oil now. I'm a former food science library tech and chef, plus all around food geek.

Allan Malcolm McPherson

Yeah, but in the context of the discussion would have been enough, as the point was to show it is not close to poison, as it's usually depicted as by the fanatics.

Koidestroyer

He’s gone already.

Christopher Kavanagh

Humans have been consuming alcohol for ages and having unprotected sex would be also not really quality arguments, to argue they’re entirely safe. With that type of argument you can only make the case that the negative effects are rather limited and did not limit people from living long enough to reproduce.

CuriousGeorge

I have listened again (again) and can concede, if you just listen to the conclusion, that Matthew is concerned that people stop winding each other up online and get into the real world. However, if I was marking this essay, I would question why the detailed description of cult survival groups was required. Perhaps write a second draft about the value of off line communities compared with online communities? Don't reference the Buddha and the second arrow (if you are not talking about religious cults) but if you want to talk about Paolo Freire style community groups that would be perhaps fit better with the conclusion? Stick with one idea and work it through or you will confuse the unfortunate reader/listener.

Nina Davies

That is not the point! One of the appeals of DtG is the analysis of the quality of the arguments given and to avoid falling into rhetoric traps. From this perspective I'm looking at the argument. I am not talking about seed oils, I am talking about the quality of the argument "people have eaten seeds that contain oil for ages". And that is a bad argument. If the argument had been "people have been using seed oil for millenia" then that is a good argument . But that is not what was said. I don't know why this is so hard to get. If you answer with even more oil types I will consider seriously going to someone who helps me with my communicative abilities.

Koidestroyer

Fantastic episode. I really appreciate the work you put into these. Well done.

Frank Lantz

Maybe it just looked less moralistic because we didnt have social media for everyone to see it.

Ema Corro

I remember people beating each other up over minor political disagreements in the 90s. And long boring debates over whether we should try to reclaim the word "chick" or if it was too tainted with sexism to ever be uttered even in a joke.

Ema Corro

Yes so much!

Ema Corro

So the bit relating to privilege is more about recognising that people have uneven resources for dealing with trauma. He’s just saying that if you are lucky enough to have some time and space and maybe money for therapy that’s a way that your circumstances can benefit you, so it’s a type of privilege. So I think he’s just saying “be kind to those without the resources to cope”

Sophie

Ok here’s my REMSKI EXEGESIS- Remski speaks to the choir so he doesn’t bother to explain his lefty priors which remain in subtext. So one thing which is left unsaid is his acknowledgement that the recent election is a legitimate trauma and existential threat to some groups. So the election here means “trauma” not so much “cult”.

Sophie

One thing though. I am in an online support group for a rare disease which I find useful because I think for most rare diseases, the patient community usually knows more than the medical community so they can offer really helpful practical advice. But one of my friends who has a different rare disease warned me she had to leave the support group for her disease because it got quite toxic and negative. Anyway I've seen a bit of this in my group to, especially what Matthew refers to as 'trauma dumping'. So I listened to the original podcast and (although not the intent at all) it did make me think about how negative my support group can be sometimes and how maybe I should limit my interaction with it.

Emma

Pretty sure Thiel knows damn well that vaccines dont cause autism.

Ema Corro

I listened to it a few times because I was really confused by the analogy but everytime agreed with Chris's interpretation! I think if you are using an analogy and specifically say that you democratic party needs to be pulled down like a irredeemable cult, it sounds like the analogy of the cult is central to your argument (rather than online emotional dynamics). It is really confusing though and overly dense in its imagery so I am able to see your interpretations could be his intention! Maybe an editor could have helped.

Nina Davies

Hello! How long is Matt in Pittsburgh?

Kerena

Agreed, that's the root of it.

Allan Malcolm McPherson

But people have been extracting oil from seeds since forever. The examples I gave earlier were "off the top of the head" ones and I'm embarrassed that I didn't also think of grapeseed oil (oldest of them), rapeseed, and mustard seed oil (described in the Bible and vedas). Mustard seed oil is in the "timeless" category and that has been appraised as potentially harmful by modern food science decades ago. So, yeah evaluation isn't some unconsidered black hole.

Allan Malcolm McPherson

Oh no Linda! So sorry you are going through this! Wish you could come join us in this part of the world.

Emma

Agree Linda. That's how I took it to. I guess one of the issues of the extended analogy is that the more details you add the more room there is for people to get confused how to interpret it!

Emma

This is excellent

Tom Kerwin

DEAL Also plastering is unnecessarily difficult

Tom Kerwin

I think there is a clear value judgment made between cult survivors who have not processed their experience and deny the abusive nature of a cult vs. those who have processed it, and recognised the true level of abuse that was occurring and how it relates to levels of privilege. I agree the focus on group dynamics that you are discussing is there but I think the cult analogy is not as incidental to the points being made as suggested.

Christopher Kavanagh

I think Robert Wright is guilty of this too. A point we raised with him but made little headway with.

Christopher Kavanagh

Yep, it is much easier to be idealistic in blue bubbles.

Linda Sears

I agree with that and like you i kinda stopped listening regularly, maybe because the crunchy yoga speak was starting to wear on me. But I do think they do good work and I'm glad for they are doing it. Matt is just pissing me off lately.

James P.

I prefer to comment purely to join in some fun. This is partly because it can just suck too much time up. Now that I say that though, when a call for reviews came out a while back, I spent probably 1.5hrs writing one that I thought was really funny. Unfortunately, I think I might have said something slightly offensive and it never was posted. I’m annoyed, I was looking forward to s sharing the fun! Anyway, one of the points of criticism was one that also struck me a while back. Now that it’s been brought up, I’ll weigh in. It’s in regards to the public feeling that things are taboo and that they can’t be discussed. The lamented censorship (often from the right) that you can’t say certain things. I think Matt and Chris have glazed over this. I take your point Matt, that it’s a given that there are always norms within social circles. And I appreciate the counter points made on the podcast. It’s easy to slip into the algorithm, and get a view that is skewed and missing things. I think I’ve shifted back (from being more concerned about it to less concerned) as a result of this podcast. While it’s other online content, algorithms etc that got me further along to being concerned, it is also rooted in personal experience. I think that socially, taboo’s have changed. I feel like they’ve strengthened on the left. I could be wrong, but I completely understand the narrative that people who have defected from the left use. I think, even in country Australia, there is more black and white thinking and pressure to conform, and I now bite my tongue on certain topics. I discuss them very selectively. I do this because I’ve actually previously been very open and vocal, and it hasn’t gone well. I think it’s because people are moralising political views more now. When I disagree with people now, it’s not just viewed as a difference in opinion, it’s viewed (more than previously) as evidence to consider that maybe I’m just more wrong/evil than they thought. Maybe this was always the way, but my sense is that this has changed. FYI - this has taken me 45mins 😂. It’s still not decent quality. This is why I don’t weigh in!

Neil vdp

Yes. Hard to describe. And the bathrooms alone are worth the stop. Ha

Kgar

That how I read it as well. This is not to say I agree with Matthew that the Democratic party is irredemable. I just didn't hear him making the comparison Chris was making. I think the actual analogy was about how efficacious online recovery groups can be. He was using his past experiences looking at online cult survivors’ groups to point out the harmful dynamics that can occur when traumatized people interact with one another online because there are no qualified therapists to provide boundaries and guidelines and differences in experiences will cause rifts and abusive dynamics. It was the online aspect he was flagging as harmful, in my view, which is why the solution he offered was to “log the fuck off.” His bringing up his own views about the Democratic party muddied the analogy, which is why he could be interpreted in the way Chris did.

Linda Sears

I grew up in the hills of Appalachian western north carolina, where they found eric Rudolph, the domestic terrorist who bombed abortion clinics in the 90s, rummaging thru a dumpster. It was pretty much my backyard. Our community was hiding him from the feds. You and i know just how out of touch this stuff is with red America. It's why I'm so frustrated with leftists and people like remski living in Toronto decrying walz and the center left for just trying to win. These people are deluded, however well intentioned

James P.

Interesting comments! The anti Ukraine and covid conspiracy link is interesting, a Canadian polling company last year found a link between believing both narratives. The polling company theorized that the anti vaxers were not necessarily pro Russia but they were getting their Ukraine/Russia news from the same source as their covid news

Mark Francis

Personally I’m very annoyed by described behavior displayed by Matthew Remski and the instagram follower, but imo that’s a feature of the podcast, why it’s effective. I estimate that many people who loyally listen to Conspirituality (I used to be big fan, somehow it organically fell out of my podcast rotation) are genuine seekers with perhaps too open mind and too much empathy. Conspirituality hosts are the same, therefore the podcast feels cozy, safe for that kind of person; when it challenges worldview, it does so in gentle way, proving emotional validation too. It’s pretentious af and I love it.

aneladgam_varelse

I agree with you James. We do live in a right wing Christian nation, and it truly bothers me when we fight with one another when the big orange menace has been waiting in the wings to swoop in. Since I'm older and the political media I read or listen to is pretty standard Democratic fare, I haven't been exposed to the left wing "let's burn it all down" narrative as much as it sounds like you have. I tend to hear the "the woke are turning the country against us" or "let's recapture the working class man" stories more. Matt mentioned that the U.S. is vast and diverse, and that's true. Where I live, you cannot join a bargaining union if you work for the public sector, and joining a non-bargaining union could get you labeled as a socialist/communist. Teaching about the evils of slavery can get you in trouble if a student tells their parents. A Biblical based teaching curriculum in public schools for grades kindergarten through fifth grade has just been passed (schools don't have to use it, but they get extra funding of around $60 per student if they do), hospitals are mandated to ask patients about their immigration status, you can conceal carry a gun in my college classroom as long as you have a license, and pregnant women have died when they couldn't get abortion care because doctors are afraid of being jailed. Believe me, I know the stakes are high, and moving even further right is not a strategy I can live with given how far right we already are here. At the same time, I believe in finding compromises and being able to live with far less than my ideals would want.

Linda Sears

According to Chris, Matthew Remski was comparing leftists and liberals to people who left cults. But I didn't read him that way at all. I saw him comparing communities experiencing trauma. The fact that one of those communities consists of ex-cult members was incidental to the point he was making: namely that members of traumatized communities will experience trauma differently from one another.

Brink

I also was plastering while listening! I am pretty sure I was making a big mess. If you could come around to my house and fix it up when the next episode drops, that would be fantastic 😂

Neil vdp

Although UK politics does not map onto the US very well, it is still the case that some people respond to election loss by shouting that their party is 'not left enough' or 'not right enough'. If the country appears to be moving right, a left wing party can't possibly win by moving further left. And yet, some people persist in believing that their ideals matter more than winning.

Nina Davies

I'm also a progressive in just about every sense of the word, so I take no issue with what you're saying. I do, however, live in a swing state where the overall tenor of democrat blaming was likely partially facilitated by narratives like this one and so many more coming from the leftists that, unlike you and I, see endlessly shitting on mainstream dems as virtuous even at the expense of electing fascists. But in a way, you are agreeing with me, in that the US is a right wing Christian nation, and if progressives want to win, we won't do it by imposing purity tests on candidates already under scrutiny for being too Liberal. It's bad politics, it's irrational, there is no way to build coalitions if tim fucking walz is getting blasted for inflicting trauma on natives and destroying the environment. We. Can. Not. Win. With. These. People.

James P.

There's a very good dramatic series about German soldiers in World War 2 (Unsere Mütter unsere Väter / Our mothers our fathers). I doubt it'd hit the same in 1950, let alone 1943. Also, it's ordinary Russian soldiers who came through Bucha, Bakhmut and Mariupol. What you see happening in real time, is people being convinced by Russian propaganda without realizing it. Russia doesn’t try to get Europeans and Americans to support them, it just tries to make them cynical and indifferent. They just muddle the truth and throw out so many theories, just so everyone goes “ah well it’s complicated… you know long history… corruption… both sides blah blah”. And instead of picking up a history book and seeing it’s not all that complicated, people stick with their Joe Rogans as a source of information. People genuinely think they’re doing something intellectually stimulating when they listen to Lex Fridman, and it replaces actually learning about the world.

Jacob_3BP

One of my good buddies went to a John Early concert with me and surprised this never came up but figuring he's listened too much to the Intercept and the antiwar left cause he said two things "isn't zelensky CRAZY - he's gonna start WW3!" - which I think assumes for the sake of "human life" he's supposed to surrender to an armed invader and subject his people to decades of ruthless Moscow management - the end of democratic life, civil society and the suborning of business and capital to Moscow's dictates?? Ok then. He also went on to mention "how good" the Russian military is and how unfair it was that a documentary on Russian soldiers was taken out of a documentary festival here in Canada. I agreed that the plight of Russian soldiers was important and that they're being used so causally and cruely by their leaders in "meat wave" tactics - so cheaply used. It's possible to humanize the stories of an invading army composed of conscripts. But I said, should we be showing stories of the plight of IDF soldiers now and focusing on humanizing them? This story could be told too and TBH, it's probably pretty complex for a lot of them and I hear of many suffering after their deployments to the territories - but wouldn't you understand if maybe film festival's DIDNT want to show such a documentary at this time? That seemed to hit a mark but I was reminded how pervavise the Russian propaganda is on ALL sides of the spectrum. Hits friends and family too.

Jonathan Swayze

I always mess up the links... Anyway, here's Destiny with a good take: https://x.com/ThinkingMunk/status/1862627120649765060

Jacob_3BP

On that note, it seems back in 2022 Lex Fridman did an interview with Ukranian journalist Illia Ponomarenko, and interestingly didn't release it: https://x.com/VolodyaTretyak/status/1862786440951746580 (takes some clicking around to linked tweets, but seemed this one was the best to paste here)

Jacob_3BP

Exactly. I'm capable of a lot of hate listening to all the Guru's (as long as it's skillfully torn apart by Matt & Chris), but the anti-Ukraine stuff from these people (and people in real life) makes me aggressively furious. Every single point these people make falls apart under even the slightest of critical thinking, especially when you have a base knowledge of Eastern European history. Their entire moral compass is oriented to whatever most effectively trolls "the left", so when "the left" supports Ukraine, Trump and his base feel each other out and surprisingly land on the contrarian position which fits in neatly with the whole Frankenstein of other conspiracies around COVID and climate change. Of course they'll have no idea what the political leanings of someone like Andrzej Duda in Poland are, because the only thing that matters is America. Rogan even sneaking in the "can I get a drug test" on Zelensky, like a full blown Candace Owens. Absolutely despicable people... intellectual and moral nitwits.

Jacob_3BP

Perhaps my view on all of this is shaped by having lived in one of the most extreme red states for the last almost 20 years and teaching in a red county where saying some of things that Chris and Matt do on the podcast could get me fired. Here, Trump mania is in full swing. He is exceedingly popular. I really don't think the Remski types or other online progressive leftists would have changed this, and I have absolutely no joy in Trump's win. Other factors are at work, gerrymandering by Republican states and the dominance of the electoral college, which means most money has to go to swing states and other states are not given attention; these are significant barriers. For the past year (since January 1st), I've been living in terror that he'd come back. I sent as much money as I could to Harris and my senate candidate, both who lost, put up my signs, in spite of fear of being picked on, voted early, and had a breakdown in class in front of my students on Wednesday, November 6. Stress from the months leading up to election has caused me to lose partial sight in my left eye *at least this is what the optometrist has told me. Please do not think that those of us who are progressives are all accelerationists. I'd have been on top of the world if Harris had won!

Linda Sears

Also blocked by taleb - GMO debate. Lol

Jonathan Swayze

Great episode guys

Louis

Loving the section on Rogan and Ukraine - many Americans, and especially those in media and politics, suffer from a rubric of American Exceptionalism where the rest of the world is reduced to NPCs and even a figure like Putin has no real agency since in their narratives all his decisions rest on a single input: American action/inaction. Putin only exists as a function to explain whether the current US president is "weak" or "strong" and decides whether to invade ONLY on this basis. I also think more broadly, and even among more nuanced American thinking, there is a kind of Great Power-itis that infects everything. You can see it in Russian thinking too. It's the same thinking thats behind every Imperial Power really - but I think Rogan, the foreign policy establishment and many normal Americans consider themselves a Great Power in their region and that Russia is a Great Power in *their* region. A lot of the American discussion on this which is more sympathetic to Russia has this unstated assumption at core: Great Powers have the most power, and so countries situated next to Great Powers should bend to the axis of the Great Power on their doorstep, and if they don't, it's entirely appropriate for the Great Power to "take action". As a citizen of a middle power, Canada, with roots in Finland and the Baltics, I resent this Imperial Thinking. What if maybe America and Russia *shouldn't* have interfered in Chechnya, Grenada, Moldova, Panama, Belarus, Nicaragua, Ukraine, Colombia, Georgia, Argentina, or Afghanistan and Afghanistan?? Also as a Canadian: frustrating to see red pilled Canadians repeating this Logic of Empire as if it's sound realpolitik and not a moral and imaginative failure to simply accept it without challenge. But hey, we're busy syncing with the American hive mind now so I get it.

Jonathan Swayze

Has anyone read Hitlers Mosters, a supernatural history of the third reich by Eric Kurlander? I just started reading it, the parallels to what today’s guru’s believe in and spout about are uncanny.

Mark Francis

Joe Rogan clearly came across geopolitics last Tuesday. The Eastern European countries begged to join NATO to get protection from Russia. Besides that, Russia talked about joining NATO and the EU back in the mid 2000’s…. to join it would of required an end to their oligarchs and a policy shift to the liberal package. Which would of given the kremlin access to all the warm water ports, markets and security guarantees they desire. And ironically, all without having to fire a shot

Mark Francis

The argument was about eating seeds that contained oil, not about using seed oil. If he had said "people have been using seed oil for culinary purposes for millenia" then it is not a bad argument.

Koidestroyer

Get ready for the same bullshit when trump overheats this booming economy the biden admin is about to hand him

James P.

I believe sesame seed oil was used in ancient Egypt

James P.

You'd have to grant exceptions for sesame seed oil (around 3000 years old) and sunflower seed oil (around 200 at commercial scale).

Allan Malcolm McPherson

You don't think the fact that not a single online leftist came out in full throated support of our candidates, and instead demonized them, endlessly picked apart every transgression, made a significant impact? In swing states where democratic congressional candidates ran ahead of the top of the ticket, in an election where a few hundred thousand votes could've changed the outcome, or even fewer could've saved the house or local races, that some cohesion could've bought us some level fortification against what's coming. Instead, we get this - authoritarianism at all 3 branches of government and very little we can do about it. I agree the macro landscape was probably what shaped the electorate, but that was all the more reason to band together given the stakes. But instead the Remski types did what leftists always do, which is join the chorus of lukewarm (at best) support for the best option they have in razor thin elections, and dilute the enthusiasm that you actually need to win here. I also wonder if some even take some joy in seeing the democrats lose and they get to say " told you so" and make weird podcasts about how we are abused cult members. They are accelerationists who want to see a new progressive movement rise from the burning ashes of the centrist democrats. But they just do not understand America. We are a right wing Christian country and we were lucky to have a biden administration that competently passed progressive legislation. We would've been lucky to have a harris walz admin or a center left democratic house. But now we get this, a vengeful, unshackled Donald Trump. God help us all.

James P.

I really loved Matthew and suddenly couldn’t listen anymore. It’s been a while for me. Thanks for this description, it is helpful to hear.

Jen

Buc-ee's must be experienced to be believed. A Buc-ees in Luling, Texas is the largest gas station in the world.

Linda Sears

Thanks for this context. I don't listen to Conspirituality as much as I used to. These differences between more progressive and less progressive Democrats is very frustrating to witness when we have bigger fish to fry. A perfectly pure candidate who aligns completely with one's views is an impossibility. However, I don't think the most progressive of the wing lost us this past election just as I don't think the centrists did. Inflation was the biggest issue in voter's minds, and they blamed Biden for it. The infighting we are experiencing now is not going to move us forward (I say this as a Democrat with progressive views).

Linda Sears

These sorts of gurus remind me that my father was really into Edgar Cayce, a guru of the early 20th C. Check out his Wikipedia page.

Hugh Haggerty

Perhaps I am, but I'm not sure it matters for the point I'm making. These moral purity tests have shattered the democratic electorate. The online left has consistently demonized liberals, while a unified American right has lead fascism back into the all 3 branches of government. There is no morally pure candidate by progressive standards who could stand a chance at winning a national election. In any case, we are all about to find out what our lack of colonial consciousness means for the most vulnerable under the Trump administration.

James P.

Can’t see X any more :) but that chimes with what I was assuming he was saying, ta

Tom Kerwin

He summarizes his view here: https://x.com/nntaleb/status/1858585212097044604 it's not unreasonable. And "chemically extracted deodorized" oil is new, we haven't done that for millenia.

Koidestroyer

What a tool he is (Unintentionally, just realised two meanings of tool might apply)

Tom Kerwin

Lovely stuff - accompanied me through some irritating DIY tidying up the mess a plasterer made. One note on the NNT bit - you thought he was referring to information asymmetry, but I’m pretty sure he’s referring to outcome asymmetry. That is, if a game has a 95% chance of a small upside but a 5% chance of a fatal downside, you don’t want to play that game. Especially not repeatedly. Doesn’t change the assessment that he’s being a massive dick as usual. But I guess he’s trying to say that if there’s a minuscule risk that seed oils are harmful it’s prudent not to take that risk. His Lindy Effect principle would probably have it that humans have eaten butter for millennia, and seeds for millennia … but processed seed oils are “new” and therefore should be considered risky until proven otherwise. Thing is, the way you apply Lindy seems to be driven by assumptions and a biased interpretation of history …

Tom Kerwin

A small reminder that decoders are not perfect. On the seed oil saga Matt mentions "people have been consuming seeds for millenia and seeds have oil" which is the exact same type of bad argument Taleb makes about parachutes. People eating full seeds that contain oil is a very different endeavor than using a cup of oil (which is 1kg of seeds!) in your cake, or to fry your taters. I have no dog on the seed oil fight, just pointing at a bad argument.

Koidestroyer

The main point he seemed to be making is that survivors of trauma interacting online tend to fall into unhealthy social dynamics. A good deal of the episode was devoted to explaining what those harmful dynamics are, including his discussion of what Thi Nguyen and Bekka William call Outrage Porn. He observed that the most likely place for divisions to occur in these online support groups is between the less and more traumatized, further fueling unhealthy dynamics that undermine healing/recovery. I did not necessarily see him as saying one side was inherently better or more aware than the other since the most harmed/outraged ones could often become the top abusers in the online survivor’s group. For example, he said that abusive behavior could be justified by “claims or perceptions about how much experience, especially traumatic experience, the person had gone through.” Presumably, those in the online cult survivors’ group who professed to having experienced the worst traumas in the cult would also be those who had no positive associations with the cult.

Linda Sears

I agree. After listening to Matthew’s solo episode, I had that interpretation as well. My thinking is that he was making an analogy between online support groups for people who are survivors of trauma (for him this was online cult survivors’ groups since that is his background) and online groups of progressive leftists and liberals who are traumatized by the election of Trump. As far as I could tell, there was no cult being alluded to for the post-election “survivors.” The causes of pain that these people are feeling is, according to Matthew in this episode, unbridled capitalism and MAGA.

Linda Sears

While I had heard the Rogan clip before it still put my blood to boil. It also made me think that why these ultra masculine manosphere influencers lacks all the masculine virtues. For instance courage and standing up to for the weak are classical masculine virtues, but you will never see these assholes actually doing these things. Instead Rogan blames the victim, while being scared shittless.

commutercomputer

There actually is an RCT that compares jumping without a parachute to jumping with a parachute: Parachute use to prevent death and major trauma when jumping from aircraft: randomized controlled trial BMJ 2018; 363 doi: https://doi.org/10.1136/bmj.k5094 (Published 13 December 2018) by Robert W Yeh et al. "Conclusions Parachute use did not reduce death or major traumatic injury when jumping from aircraft in the first randomized evaluation of this intervention. However, the trial was only able to enroll participants on small stationary aircraft on the ground, suggesting cautious extrapolation to high altitude jumps. When beliefs regarding the effectiveness of an intervention exist in the community, randomized trials might selectively enroll individuals with a lower perceived likelihood of benefit, thus diminishing the applicability of the results to clinical practice." NB: Be careful if attempting to extrapolate the findings to higher altitudes.

Duncan

Not to be a Remski whisperer here but sounds like you could be missing the colonialism consciousness that is going on with the pipeline issue, I imagine it’s not about the pipeline or any of the environmental stuff but about sovereignty, self determination, being owners of the land and all that

Sophie

> But in any way the social tension is in relation to abuse (according to Matthew Remski) Yes. But in that case the source of the abuse is obviously not the Democratic party. (Even though his position that the Democratic party is unsalvageable is deeply unserious, he is clearly not painting it as the source of the abuse).

Olexi Kondrat

Yeah I understood him as saying “we’re all going through some trauma right now, trying to support each other, but there are some dangers that I’ve recognised from cult survivor groups, dangers that come from having a lot of recently traumatised people in one place”. That was my read

Sophie

Maybe? But in any way the social tension is in relation to abuse (according to Matthew Remski)

aneladgam_varelse

Man... I really came 180 degrees on JRE. Fuck this idiot. Interesting to hear he's already setting up a backdoor in case trump fucks up. It'll be because "they" sabotage his administration.

Chomagerider

I haven't listened to the full Conspirituality episode, but from the bits that you included, I got a feeling that Matthew Remick talks more about similarities in social dynamics, rather than an exact analogy to a cult? (Checked the episode name and it's "Brief: Post-Election Online Survivor Group Dynamics") You can argue that a cult survivors analogy is a bit too inflammatory, but maybe the reason that there's no well-defined stand in for a cult is that the cult is not the point and it's primarily about group tensions.

Olexi Kondrat

Great listen doing chores and cooking. Rogan really is pathetic and listening to that leftist talking about cults is almost enough to turn me full MAGA.

JackG

Chris’ Captain Kirk still…reigns… supreme. 🖖 Now where’s the bloody dunny.

Ryan Booker

Glad to hear you guys cover matt remski. He has been grating on me this year. He has been (understandably) deranged by Isreal Palestine, and it's starting to poison everything. I got into an argument with one of his followers on Instagram, of all places. She was a new age crunchy white lady living in Arizona (I looked at her profile). She commented on a post Matt shared having something to do with tim walz, and she essentially called walz an eco terrorist and colonialist because he authorized a pipeline through sacred native land as governor of Minnesota. Matt replied, like "wow can you please share more, I'm so interested" She links him to a far left partisan, polemicist Instagram page, to a heavily sensationalized and edited video of the transgression. Matt was like "thank you so much for sharing, I never knew..."etc It pissed me off, because it was the same puritanical left wing sanctimony that was asymmetrically shitting on the dems all thru the biden presidency. I told them both that this was a relatively insignificant thing to be fixated on given the stakes, that he had a very progressive record on environment, and that the video was factually misleading in several ways. And that these kinds of online litigations of petty grievance are profoundly unhelpful if the goal is not to have a trump admin in 2025. Just imagine the pipelines, folks, tremendous pipelines, the biggest. He responded with anger at me for berating her for sharing this groundbreaking dirt on walz, and that he appreciated her educating him on this trauma walz inflicted on the native Americans, and did i really think telling them that this was a bad look, was useful? Matt seems like a smart and sweet guy, but he is drunk on marginalization. He has never heard a victimhood narrative he didn't like, and it's highlighting some major blind spots.

James P.

Chris, I'm proud of you for not only giving Matt a chance to speak this time, but letting him do the intro* Peterson presents this version of Christianity as an ancient, immutable truth, but he is actually discussing a very modern interpretation of the faith. The original, ancient Christianitie(s) were a really interesting blend of Judaism, Greco-Roman mystery cults, and something akin to modern hippy communal idealism, with some proto-feminism thrown in (though I'm sure the relevant texts in the Nag Hammadi library are just a product of ancient Marxist universities) - all quite unlike Peterson's conception of it. His understanding of the historicity of the Bible and Christianity in general is very poor, he's just finding the things he wants to find, it's very jarring to listen to him talk with such authority. Actually, it's just very jarring listening to him talk. * Matt spoke for 38% of the time.

Jack

Peeing in a discreet corner is not a great option for half the population.

Geraldine Kawabe

Pure poetry 😁

Kristen Cartmer

Peterson and Pageau are just repeating basic Christian apologetics (as always). There’s no evidence of how most of the disciples died until stories that are told hundreds of years later, for example.

Ben Godek

Someday you guys will look at Terence McKenna and see that so many of the nodes in the modern internet guru network have tendrils extending out from him. So much of this style of psychedelic millenarian, UFO-as-transdimensional-psychic-object, scientific skeptic masquerading as rationalism, up is actually down at the same time, techno-teleological, polymathic, ability to monologue for hours on end, was very clearly pioneered by McKenna in the 80s and 90s. The thing is, I can see how it was fun and how intoxicating it must've been at that time. It was harmless. But it's so interesting to see how it was co-opted and distorted into its modern varia in the form of Petersen, Pageau, Rogan, Hancock, and others. Even Harris in both style and substance echos McKenna. I've heard him say that he traveled to hear him speak in the 90s , and that he had "one of the most beautiful minds", even though he was mostly full of shit. A deep dive into McKenna would help to contextualize much of what we see coming from these jokers today.

James P.

Very good observation Matt. Incredibly diverse cultures.

Kgar

Sounds like you’re missing out on Tejas! Plenty of bathrooms here. Have you never heard of Buccee’s? 😃👍

Kgar

Woohoo! I've got hours of housework ahead of me! This is the only thing to cheer me up!

Emma

I appreciate that Matt is visiting non-tourist spots like St. Louis, Detroit, and Pittsburgh., in addition to the national parks and major cities. Also, the observation that USA’s tolerance for a wide range of individual expression and its tolerance for raging egotists and whackos are two sides of the same coin. You take the good with the bad!

Mike

G'date mate, and greetings (or should I say "where's the shitter") from America! Matt is absolutely right about the lack of a national character here. America is a huge, diverse country. People bemoaning the loss of a shared identity are really lamenting the dissolution of boundaries. It's not that the farmer in the south and the barista in L.A. have drifted away from their shared national identity, it's that they now regularly see just how different they are and have always been

James P.

Great job boys!!!🥶

Julie

Thank you, I needed that! 💚🚽

Jen

Roscoe 112

Aww! I’m next-door, right outside of Detroit. It’s a great town. I’m glad you saw it.

JGraves

This is what I go to school for.

Luk from UK-ish

Love Matt’s commentary on America. I don’t feel like enough people whether in America or abroad fully appreciate just how heterogenous and strange it is here.

Jonathan Crymes

Enjoyed this episode.

Shane Partington

Also are they about to start a beef with the Conspirituality guys? Drama!

Minya Scase

Just woke up and saw the episode notification, read the subtopic details and I am truly excited about listening to this. Something for everyone!

Minya Scase

thanks for saving western civilization through your bravery

aneladgam_varelse

Thank you, thank you ♥️😊

Siobhan Murphy

Yeah this looks like an absolute banger of an episode, much flinging of excrement

Leon White

Might need a shower after this one

Reinert