Dr. K (Part 3): Therapeutic Non-Therapy
Added 2024-09-13 01:29:57 +0000 UTCJoin Matt and Chris as they embark on their final exploration of the content of Dr. K, the streaming psychiatrist behind Healthy Gamer GG. Previous episodes have focused on his advocacy of Ayurvedic medicine and use of classic rhetoric from Complementary and Alternative medicine spaces but this time the episode examines his most controversial content: the (non)therapy sessions with influencers, particularly a very challenging and controversial conversation with the since departed streamer Reckful.
The episode considers how Dr. K navigates the boundaries between professional therapy and public conversations, his response to an official reprimand from his professional body, and whether his justifications hold up to scrutiny.
Matt and Chris consider the validity of legalistic defences, the ethics of public streaming with vulnerable people, and more general issues with mixing mental health care with entertainment.
This is a long one and features some nuanced discussion on patient-therapist power dynamics, issues of exploitation with vulnerable individuals, and the complexities of regulatory scrutiny and professional ethics.
We warn you this is not a very light one and deals with issues around suicide and mental health.
Sources
HealthyGamerGG: Ludwig and Dr. K's Journey of Death and Consciousness
HealthyGamerGG: Tired of Work, Society, and Life... (featuring response to reprimand)
Dr. Mike: Debating The Value Of Eastern Medicine (Ayurveda) | Healthy Gamer Dr. K
Comments
Shaking with anger after listening to this.
Paul Ditta
2025-01-27 09:36:50 +0000 UTCthe worst thing this guy does is call predatory behaviour- empathetic listening
peta austen
2024-09-30 02:46:10 +0000 UTCYiiiiiiikes.... I thought after p1 and 2 that he was a self help grifter who threw in the eastern stuff to distinguish his brand from the other 10,00] self help guys. This episode elevates him to theatrical narcissist and S tier guru
James Lucas
2024-09-30 00:37:51 +0000 UTCThat was so hard and so awful. I felt sick listening to how sr K played fast and loose with Reckful. Horrible.
Desma
2024-09-24 03:40:35 +0000 UTCAs an M.D., I found this episode intolerable. What was most astonishing was the way Dr. K interpreted his own mistakes and shortcomings. In the medical profession, we all make mistakes—I certainly have—and I don't know any M.D. who hasn't. But then one has to be humbled by the experience, seek feedback, and change practice; one has to be better and wiser after each mistake. Dr. K. seems to be immune to criticism, which makes him a dangerous and unethical doctor.
Daniel Malmsiø
2024-09-21 06:34:59 +0000 UTCCompletely true about Rogan, which is amazing. When suffering from serious mental health issues, you'd be better off speaking to a right wing chucklehead than this particular psychiatrist. Brutal
Jonathan Southern
2024-09-20 12:37:40 +0000 UTCImportant work guys, hits hard. First decoding I haven't been able to listen to all the way through. After 2 hours of this (and all of parts 1 and 2), I just couldn't stand hearing another word by Dr K. I give no charitable interpretation for him - I think he's vile. I didn't think anyone could be more infuriating than Red Scare, so bravo on finding someone! So sad hearing the false promises and hope given to Reckful, so damaging. Great analysis Chris and Matt, despite it being horrible. I don't know how you stomached this one
Jonathan Southern
2024-09-20 12:35:31 +0000 UTCThe folksy ‘y’all’ is infuriating, and that is after i felt deep anger at what seemed an appalling lack of care when speaking with Reckful. The chimes of $$ being paid to Dr K whilst he seemed to bully Reckful into agreeing with him was the last straw. It’s so disheartening to see Dr K is still so celebrated online.
Sue Fricke
2024-09-20 07:18:11 +0000 UTCI haven't read all the comments, so sorry if this has been mentioned before, but one obvious point about him passing a few IRB's: congrats to him, but that would surely only apply to whatever research they're doing, and so it wouldn't say anything about his behavior on stream, which is blatantly unethical.
Dries T.
2024-09-18 01:12:40 +0000 UTCI think that this episode is extremely important. You both did a great job in this one!
Amy S
2024-09-17 19:31:22 +0000 UTCHe should lose his medical license. What he did is so irresponsible, unethical, dangerous, and selfish. He is a danger to his patients and his audience. Reckful would have been better off talking to Rogan, ffs.
Randy
2024-09-17 14:59:52 +0000 UTCNearly finished and I there’s a few parts that remind me of interactions my friends and I have experienced with doctors. I was told a few times in my early 20s that I had generalised anxiety disorder and stress, maybe I should go dancing or do yoga, lose some weight? Cut to many many years later, it wasn’t just stress 😂 😂😂There is a horrible echo in Dr Ks dismissiveness that echoes the experience of women going to the doctor with quite serious concerns and getting advice that is woefully inappropriate, if not dangerous 🧐
S Alexandra
2024-09-17 12:33:21 +0000 UTCUgh the Reckful interview is so sad. Dr K is so terrible with him.
Ema Corro
2024-09-17 02:47:38 +0000 UTCMany testimonials from fans suggest yes he has.
Christopher Kavanagh
2024-09-17 00:47:48 +0000 UTCHe seems a lot better than the general standard.
Christopher Kavanagh
2024-09-17 00:46:58 +0000 UTCIt is indeed but it is only one of the crtieria. I think a common mistake is to think that a person being bad and exploitative makes them necessarily a secular guru. It does not. That's why lots of people who are terrible have not scored very high.
Christopher Kavanagh
2024-09-17 00:46:41 +0000 UTCIsn’t encouraging in/out group behavior one of the parts of the gurometer or at least one of the additional characteristics they add at the end?
Linda Sears
2024-09-16 19:59:11 +0000 UTCGreat point, Roland. I agree with you that laws shouldn’t be all-encompassing for the very reasons you brought up. There are far too many gray areas in life and exceptions.
Linda Sears
2024-09-16 19:51:58 +0000 UTCI'm not sure will Dr. K trilogy be your magnum opus, but I'm glad that you informed people about this hypocritical asshole. I'm not sure where to begin with but my first takeaway is the hypocrisy of Dr. K and his ayawhatever medicine. In your first episodes he layed out that it's "holistic system" where you try to personalize therapy to specific invidiual. But the "therapy" sessions just showed that it's only a vehicle to push his ideas into vulnerable people with tragic results. Second observation was that K gave strong L. Ron Hubbard vibes when he talked about online hate farmers who are after him. If you just swab word hater with word suppressive person you are deep into scientology level of bad.
commutercomputer
2024-09-16 17:11:17 +0000 UTCI've seen quite a few therapists in my life, and Dr. K is exactly the sort I avoided. Someone who tells you what you're feeling, codifies your feelings, tells you why you're feeling them, and exactly what you need to do to fix them. The salve of certainty may help in the short term, but ultimately you're a prop for validating the so-called therapist's broader theory. It goes both ways, I've had therapists tell me I 'didn't seem depressed', because I didn't fit they personal theory of what a depressed person was. It's people like Dr. K that make dealing with your mental health in a meaningful way so difficult. It is incredibly, incredibly hard to admit that you need help. Going through the multi-step process to get yourself in front of a therapist or mental health professional is nigh on impossible, without outside help. Once you're there, it's your job to assess whether this professional is actually qualified to deal with your issues, as an emotionally vulnerable and dependence-seeking person. Further complicated by many licensed therapist's having studied, and recommending, experimental treatments with poor evidence of efficacy. It's a fucking minefield. The best therapist's were ones that listened to me, were someone I could actually be honest with, without fear of judgement, or repercussion.
Matt
2024-09-16 14:34:01 +0000 UTCThere was one in the episode notes.
Adam Sher
2024-09-16 13:23:49 +0000 UTCEncouraging parasocial relationship is a good criteria to add. As far as I see from these samples, he doesn't venture outside of his field. I'd expect to see him score in the 50% ish, more than a Sam Harris and less than a Bret W.
Adam Sher
2024-09-16 13:23:17 +0000 UTCJFC this is a hard a listen, wtaf. This is fucking disgusting, wth is he doing????
Matt
2024-09-16 13:17:54 +0000 UTCThis guy reminds me of Stefan Molyneux so much. Just non stop 'just so' stories and total obsession with his own genius without any care for anybody he is talking to.
Tasty3141
2024-09-16 11:08:55 +0000 UTCThis needs a trigger warning. 😑
Saksaas
2024-09-16 06:24:16 +0000 UTCDocK is. He used his platform to take advantage. Just like making you wash the toilets then convincing you that salivation is only earned through sex. This is the hardest episode (exceeding Rev Moon) that I’ve listened to.. it is so fng abusive and it is right there barely hidden behind the lie that it is a “conversation” or “just talking” DocK’s morally vapid brand of “streaming” not therapy should be called out for what it is - reprehensibly disgustingly abusively wrong.
Jason Trock
2024-09-16 05:51:54 +0000 UTCRevered Moon scored 50/50
aneladgam_varelse
2024-09-16 04:54:59 +0000 UTCLike all self help, Dr K is useful with most basics
aneladgam_varelse
2024-09-16 04:52:43 +0000 UTCIt’d be interesting to know if Dr K has actually helped or been of use to anyone…. Does he or can he speak to the streaming community in an enlightening way - I’m not sure… and what are his motives? Either way, as the boys have pointed out, there are minefields aplenty in this space.
mr beeswax
2024-09-16 03:17:58 +0000 UTCAgreed! It's times like this I really appreciate how focused on making a specific case Chris and Matt are.
Soapy Dishwater
2024-09-16 03:11:23 +0000 UTCObviously not nearly in the same league ethically, but I am getting Walter Freeman Lobotomobile vibes here guys. Like, Dr. K has a sales pitch he clearly wants to make, about his philosophy, his service, his business, and why people should come to him, and he's literally using a live depressed person to demonstrate it in front of an audience. He bulldozes over Reckful's previous psychiatric experience and diagnoses, builds his own little thing on top of it, and TELLS Reckful that this is the REAL solution for him. I really appreciated when Matt called out that Dr. K basically put the entire meaning of life and hope of a vulnerable person on something as risky and difficult as releasing an indie video game- it's like leaving a house standing on a toothpick. The lack of empathy really gets me. He treats people like conversational playthings.
Soapy Dishwater
2024-09-16 03:01:21 +0000 UTCI'm not quite through the episode but can hardly bear to listen to his voice. It drips with self-impressed condescension.
Rebecca Lasley
2024-09-16 00:40:18 +0000 UTCVery good episode though! I thought I'd get bored of Dr K content but it's been fascinating, albeit morbid this one.
Alex H
2024-09-16 00:34:56 +0000 UTCI dont think i realised that Reckful had killed himself until about halfway through listening. It thought you both just kept misspeaking. Poor guy. Very obvs just from the clips how distressed he was. Unsettling hearing someone talk about prior suicide attempts with such detail and so matter of factly. Definitely should've ended the stream.
Alex H
2024-09-16 00:32:51 +0000 UTCThe gurometer is features common in secular gurus, not all gurus, or we would have a bunch of different things. We actually have an episode on this from not so long ago. Might be interesting!
Christopher Kavanagh
2024-09-16 00:25:15 +0000 UTCCompletely agree, but who is a guru if a manipulative psychologist who aims to do “AOE mental health” is not? I think a guru is better defined by their aims and tactics, who profit off aimless people looking for a greater purpose. I think that’s more about tactics and goals than about the symptoms in the gurometer. Maybe we’re describing different things, love the podcast, just sharing some thoughts
GLORP
2024-09-15 21:43:04 +0000 UTCMatt very well said, at the end, your big picture response to Dr. K was perfectly said
William LEGRAIN
2024-09-15 21:04:15 +0000 UTCNot every toxic person is a secular guru.
Christopher Kavanagh
2024-09-15 21:03:44 +0000 UTC@Roland @Linda legislative technique uses general clauses and adjectives to make legal text flexible but incorporate values/moral directives in it. However these techniques leave judgement (by design) to courts and administration what does that mean or if the situation x can be described with that adjective.
aneladgam_varelse
2024-09-15 20:06:18 +0000 UTCDr Mike seems fine
aneladgam_varelse
2024-09-15 19:56:07 +0000 UTCLinda, are you sure you'd want legal directives to cover all potential situations? Personally, I think legal directives should outlaw gross misbehaviour, but leave people a lot of room to make their own decision, based on their own values. Ethics is a tricky field, and what's codified into law is hard to challenge, and even harder to change.
Roland Weber
2024-09-15 19:09:37 +0000 UTCWhat do you guys think about dr. Mike? My girlfriend is a subscriber. I managed to talk her out of Huberman, but dr. Mike seems mostly harmless (other than she seems to have a crush on him). The clips you played actually make me think he’s actually a responsible creator in the field.
Michal Lichota
2024-09-15 19:07:17 +0000 UTCDr K is pretty galaxy brained, he uploads videos on every topic relating to mental health no matter how shallow is his knowledge on it. Or how new phenomenon is. For example he made video on war trauma after Russian invasion - he read 2 (or 3?) papers and decided he’s qualified to give advice https://youtu.be/2P9b45rH968
aneladgam_varelse
2024-09-15 18:35:46 +0000 UTCThis episode shows that the gurometer is too narrowly focused on the big 3 IDW morons. If dr k does not get a 50/50 then it’s just not a useful metric. Same with Russell brand, although I think he scored pretty high. To me the big ones are 1. Facilitate and encourage parasocial relationships 2. Fostering disciples as being more intelligent and enlightened than the rest of the world 3. Excess profiteering 4. Messiah complex 5. Thought ending memes (whatever they’re called, cult defense mechanisms) Anyway galaxy brain and Cassandra complex are more unique to JBP and BW and are not defining characteristics of gurus. You need metrics that get more cynical and manipulative gurus like dr k
GLORP
2024-09-15 18:11:05 +0000 UTCSo, commenting on the hosts comment that many people expected Chris to look like Matt, and Matt to look like Chris. As an ignorant American, I think we definitely tend to imagine all Irish people as being fair haired and pale. I would even go so far as to add that the stronger the accent, the fairer we imagine the Irish speaker to be. As a result, the fact that Chris is not actually translucent is rather jarring to my Yankees eyes.
Noah Heck
2024-09-15 16:51:01 +0000 UTCLinda, I’m a teacher too. (Epidemiology was a first act, teaching is my second or third.) We make ethical decisions every day in teaching and most teachers I know are keenly aware of our responsibilities to our students. Clinicians should be equally aware since the stakes are so much higher. I love this podcast and all of the comments that you and the community leave. It such a well-considered and considerate group!
Duncan Scrymgeour Lewis
2024-09-15 15:53:35 +0000 UTCThat's the best description of this that I've seen.
Alexander Tronstad
2024-09-15 15:48:20 +0000 UTCI feel like the structure of the episode is Chris carefully laying out a cumulative case via the clips (with very specific bridges and context) and very much letting them make the case. Dr K so clearly hangs himself with his own words. And Matt weighs in with strong clear emotional responses that most anyone would have listening to this, and very unmistakable judgement. I really appreciated this approach - I thought it was powerful.
Sam D.
2024-09-15 15:37:49 +0000 UTCYes, "meaning" is Dr K's shtick, and guess who's going to tell you how to get Meaning in your life? This is a relentless theme for online self help guru's targeting young men.
Sam D.
2024-09-15 15:30:53 +0000 UTCAs others have said, a really tough listen. As an escapee from an abusive relationship, I was internally screaming at his wife to GET OUT NOW after just that relatively tiny snippet. The constant smooth manipulation and the “one rule for special me, another for everyone else” entitlement that drips off “Dr” K. Hearing from another commenter that many psych docs have this same vibe is at the same time unsurprising and horrifying. My ex also carried a strong narrative that she was incredibly empathic and could make a great therapist. She didn’t have the terrifyingly effective “criticism bear hug” method that K deploys. I wonder how he’ll fare on the gurometer.
Tom Kerwin
2024-09-15 15:03:05 +0000 UTCI have worked as clinical social worker in the US doing therapy for a couple decades, and I am SO glad you undertook this detailed and thorough (THOROUGH!!!) review of this guy. I know his work well, because his whole project both intrigued and really troubled me. We have a huge, huge problem in the US with access to mental health care, and it's creating conditions for people like this to arise and suck up the vulnerable into their greedy maws online.What you choose to analyze and hold under the microscope are exactly the things I would have hoped you would. I really think this is one of your tour de force episodes, in that you really did a great job, methodically walking listeners through a detailed case that accumulates force over the episode. I think this can be a really helpful resource to point people (including his own listeners) to see another angle. You took great care with the topic - a topic which needed precision and empathy (which are well on display in all of it) and it's a really effective counterweight or perspective on the influence of the Dr K's of the world. I really really appreciate what you did here- outstanding job, guys.
Sam D.
2024-09-15 14:29:27 +0000 UTCYes, that is literally one of the hallmark signs of depression- losing pleasure in things that formerly brought pleasure. My head spun when I heard him say that.
Sam D.
2024-09-15 14:14:34 +0000 UTCThank you for clarifying the differences between legal ethics and, for lack of a better word, human ethics so clearly. It would be nice if the legal directives could cover all the potential situations we get into as humans, but, its just not simple. What I appreciated most about this episode was the opportunity to reflect on ethics in my own life, particularly as a teacher of students.
Linda Sears
2024-09-15 13:20:15 +0000 UTCThis is one of the most manipulative guys ive ever heard. I feel bad for his wife
Niels De Boer
2024-09-15 12:37:35 +0000 UTCWhat a giant piece of shit
Niels De Boer
2024-09-15 12:36:52 +0000 UTCagree!
Joanna Go
2024-09-15 10:03:27 +0000 UTCsame....
Joanna Go
2024-09-15 10:01:31 +0000 UTCI'm three hours into "Dr. K - Episode 3," and I'm honestly shocked that this man's medical license hasn't been revoked. Listening to this so-called "conversation" with Reckful was so painful. It feels clear to me that Reckful is trying to give the "right" answers to Dr. K, while Dr. K seems to already have a set idea in his head (the purpose). He doesn't seem genuinely curious about Reckful. The whole conversation feels dismissive of Reckful's real issues, as if Dr. K is just aiming for a quick and successful intervention for the stream. (Though this is just my interpretation). I'm also extremely frustrated with the amount of rhetoric Dr. K uses to justify his conduct. He's either completely unaware or incredibly manipulative and arrogant. (Not sure which one is worse...) And compared to people like Joe Rogan, he's even more dangerous because he speaks from a position of medical authority. And don't even get me started on how he speaks to his wife... I completely agree with Matthew's summary about the "show therapy" (at 2:15). Thanks, you guys, for decoding this person! More people should understand who they are dealing with.
Joanna Go
2024-09-15 10:01:11 +0000 UTCIn fairness to them, I made this statement before having listened to the entire pod. I still haven't finished it (don't think I will), but Matt offered more criticism in line with my own thinking later on in the episode. The criticism is still valid though in my book because I think it should have framed the recordings (ie some of it should have preceded playing them). Regarding your argument I don't really agree. You can couch harsh criticism in a low degree of certainty, and there is no inconsistency in doing so. If anything it's how we should operate in the world, ie not be unwilling to offer opinion but rather adjust our certainty in these opinions in accordance with our understanding of the subject matter. The kind of "experts only"-line of reasoning your argument echo's (in my mind anyway) is a bit too technocratic for my taste. Moreover if being a professor of psychology doesn't qualify you, then 'expertize' is narrowly defined indeed. Finally I think this line of reasoning is self-defeating, as presumably if you think you lack the proper qualifications then you shouldn't have played the recordings to begin with. Ie it doesn't deflate ethical concerns, it amplifies them.
Mikael Heller Sahlgren
2024-09-15 09:24:34 +0000 UTCThank you for this episode. It's a hard listen and I share in Matt's anger. I find it really difficult to hear Dr K ask such leading questions. It's the opposite of phenomenological enquiry or just genuine open-ended curiosity.
Thewizrad
2024-09-15 07:40:18 +0000 UTCAgree. I'm a geriatric millennial and I definitely feel my older friends are much less open in general. Sometimes even with close friends which is sad. But my younger friends... like I have some 30ish colleagues and I wouldn't even call them friends but I feel like they've told me stuff I would only ever tell my closest friends or therapist. I'm sort of on the fence about whether I think this level of openness is good or bad. Like definitely some of my older friends would benefit from being more open. I think openness can reduce shame. But also, for instance, telling your colleagues you've been sexually assaulted then puts the onus on them to respond sensitively. And not everyone has that skill set... it's a hard one.
Emma
2024-09-15 06:07:48 +0000 UTCI’m an hour in on this one and feel sick to my stomach. What an exploitative, disgusting person.
Mandy Thompson
2024-09-15 05:05:16 +0000 UTCChris I love you but maybe when you get to heavy and emotional content you should hand over the reins to Matt.
Kurt Ressler
2024-09-15 05:03:30 +0000 UTCIt’s ironic because of how much time you spent in the first episode on his blabbering about how "Western" medicine doesn’t treat individuals and is one-size-fits-all. It doesn’t seem to occur to him that his style of therapy may not be a good fit for someone (likely because it’d be inconvenient to the whole enterprise he has going)
Meg
2024-09-15 04:17:33 +0000 UTCDr. K likes his games, whether video, mind, or semantic. His comment to Dr. Mike about mental health “equity” seems to me a simple error in selection. He has trouble thinking on his feet. The word he was searching for is “parity, which is similar to equity but not identical. Also, Dr. K has a confident, if corrupt, understanding of medical ethics. I worked for years as an epidemiologist, which finds itself in the grey areas of bioethics frequently. Dr. K. explains that ethics are codified in various legal systems although that is not what bioethicists mean when they use the term. Laws, at their best, provide directions for how to behave in certain broadly defined medical circumstances, but they can’t cover the hundreds of ethical implications (and decisions) that those laws engender when put into practice. No law will tell you whether or not to encourage an end-stage cancer patient to enjoy their remaining life or attempt one more round of chemo. The law will designate a decision-maker for a patient in a vegetative state, but absent any advance directive, the law doesn’t tell that decision-maker whether they should “pull the plug” or wait and pray for a miracle. Dr. K. describes ethics as unrelated to belief and a fairly easy system to describe. He couldn’t be more wrong, which may be why he got carried away with his fanboy moment with Reckless and, subsequently, gave terrible medical advice to a suffering gamer. I find Dr. K. to be toxically arrogant and narcissistic (though that that shouldn’t be construed as medical advice) and his description of Ayurveda riven with confirmation bias and the other hallmarks of a pseudoscience: impossible to falsify. Keep up the good work, gentlemen!
Duncan Scrymgeour Lewis
2024-09-15 04:11:06 +0000 UTCThis episode came just in time for a long run so I thought, "Yay, this should be a fun listen to take my mind off aching legs, horrible humidity, etc...". Well, that's just say it wasn't... Of course, as depressing as the content was, I appreciate the importance of highlighting vultures like Dr K.
Robert Andrews
2024-09-15 03:59:40 +0000 UTCEverything that Reckful said in the clips makes it sound like it was his depression that deprived him of finding meaning in his pursuits. I'm not a therapist, but I have been depressed before, and the most distinctive aspect of it to me is how things that used to seem meaningful lose that quality, and when the depression lifts the meaning comes back.
brianshmrian
2024-09-15 03:45:18 +0000 UTCJob well done in that sense, and in the commitment to almost 12 full hours of decoding on Dr. K. Could not have been an easy task.
Nerfherder
2024-09-15 03:01:50 +0000 UTCThis is such an important episode.
Shane Partington
2024-09-15 02:59:35 +0000 UTCI also will say that I think Matt’s perspective on the perception of the person as an authority as being the problem is right on the money.
JGraves
2024-09-15 02:35:20 +0000 UTCThis is literally what Andrew Tate says to his fans.
Will
2024-09-15 02:22:52 +0000 UTCAlso, the series you were thinking of was the shrink next door which was based on a podcast about this real life case
JGraves
2024-09-15 02:21:40 +0000 UTCAppreciate the informed perspective.
Christopher Kavanagh
2024-09-15 01:47:55 +0000 UTCThanks for the feedback.
Christopher Kavanagh
2024-09-15 01:43:09 +0000 UTCI think this is the danger that comes with being too fixated on your interpretive framework, to the point that you have almost complete faith it can't do any harm to tell people about their karmic destiny and doshic makeup.
Christopher Kavanagh
2024-09-15 01:42:57 +0000 UTCThis is very disturbing. I’ve been a therapist for a long time and I do think that there’s this popular idea that a lot of guys like Dr. K. have that somehow when people break down and cry you really gotten through to them. But there’s something really horrifying about taking a vulnerable person and may be pushing them beyond their ability to manage their feelings. And then he sends him out into the world with those feelings. There is so much fundamental misapplication of therapeutic techniques that I don’t know what he’s like on his own, but he does not seem like he knows people or feels real empathy.
JGraves
2024-09-15 01:42:57 +0000 UTCYeah, we get that too!
Christopher Kavanagh
2024-09-15 01:31:11 +0000 UTCGlad to hear it Meg and sorry too.
Christopher Kavanagh
2024-09-15 01:30:59 +0000 UTCHe is very good at framing things positively for himself.
Christopher Kavanagh
2024-09-15 01:30:46 +0000 UTCThanks Matty, useful to hear feedback from therapists and agree this is probably our hardest episode in lots of ways.
Christopher Kavanagh
2024-09-15 01:30:26 +0000 UTCAgreed on the therapeutic register and the strategic use of focusing on clinical therapy.
Christopher Kavanagh
2024-09-15 01:29:45 +0000 UTCVery interesting feedback Sammy, thanks!
Christopher Kavanagh
2024-09-15 01:29:09 +0000 UTCI felt this way also with the Ludwig interview... pushing someone to focus on the death of a loved one when they actually seem to have processed it well doesn't seem warranted.
Christopher Kavanagh
2024-09-15 01:28:43 +0000 UTCYeah, not a fun one... to put it mildly.
Christopher Kavanagh
2024-09-15 01:27:56 +0000 UTCThanks for the feedback Isaac, interesting to hear from other therapists.
Christopher Kavanagh
2024-09-15 01:27:22 +0000 UTCDear God...
Christopher Kavanagh
2024-09-15 01:26:58 +0000 UTCYeah that stuck out to us too.
Christopher Kavanagh
2024-09-15 01:26:46 +0000 UTCI wonder what the full report said, and if Dr. K received it or he only got the final 8-page document.
Christopher Kavanagh
2024-09-15 01:26:36 +0000 UTCI think it's pretty clear that Dr. K is not representative of standard therapy.
Christopher Kavanagh
2024-09-15 01:25:43 +0000 UTCThanks for the feedback. I think very early on we mention that we will be covering the conversation with Reckful, that he committed suicide, and when we get to the Reckful segment we repeatedly note that the clips are very difficult to listen to. You have a point about not knowing listeners' state of mind so maybe we should have flagged up the issues in a specific segment.
Christopher Kavanagh
2024-09-15 01:25:16 +0000 UTCThanks for the feedback Keith, helpful to hear from actual experts.
Christopher Kavanagh
2024-09-15 01:21:17 +0000 UTCI'm not sure it will be a fantastic travel companion but good luck with the trip.
Christopher Kavanagh
2024-09-15 01:20:18 +0000 UTCThis one is a lot less entertaining than MST3K.
Christopher Kavanagh
2024-09-15 01:18:20 +0000 UTCAppreciate that!
Christopher Kavanagh
2024-09-15 01:17:47 +0000 UTCAppreciate the field back and glad to hear it. Also interesting to hear your experience!
Christopher Kavanagh
2024-09-15 01:17:06 +0000 UTCYeah, we intended that contrast and I think it is... striking.
Christopher Kavanagh
2024-09-15 01:16:18 +0000 UTCI do agree that it raises some ethical concerns, but I understand not going as hard. At the end of the day they likely shouldn't be making stronger claims than they're qualified to give.
Daniel Richards
2024-09-15 01:07:09 +0000 UTCI'm halfway through and yes, you're not wrong lads. Early on I was shocked to hear this supposedly good therapists' dangerous framing of the video game design being linked to his destiny, considering his history and vulnerable state. This whole thing is gross to be honest. Up there as one of the worst displays of conduct and ethics that DtG has covered. He should absolutely know better. I felt the whole time it was all about Dr. K trying to paint himself as the savior to his audience, to cement his persona of being a mental health maverick. Shameful.
Kyle
2024-09-15 01:04:24 +0000 UTCNeither could I. Totally agree. I have listened to every one up until now.
Janet Yeutter
2024-09-14 23:49:20 +0000 UTCNever...
Christopher Kavanagh
2024-09-14 23:40:35 +0000 UTCIt's already recorded.
Christopher Kavanagh
2024-09-14 23:40:21 +0000 UTCI'm slowly making my way through this episode. I appreciate that Matt and Chris are discussing ethical gray areas, like whether a therapist should interact with their families and friends, who are struggling, in the way they would with their patients. My thinking is that doing so would be unethical; however, I could also see how it could be very hard not to fall into that client/therapist pattern. It seems one would have to create some strong boundaries on what one does allow and doesn't and know good therapists to refer them to instead. As for Dr. K, his over confidence and tendency to project his own view onto others is harmful. I'm not a therapist either, but I would think a good therapist would listen to the person way more than talking, especially when the person has so many traumatic experiences to work through. And this is not even considering his exploitation of Reckful by streaming this interaction live in front of many people. One of the saddest parts for me was when Reckful talked about how neat it would be to go to Japan with Dr. K. It felt like Reckful admired him and wanted him as a friend, in which case the interaction was a betrayal of him on two levels, as a friend and a therapist (regardless of what Dr. K's framing is). It seems like Dr. K just wanted to appear super smart and insightful, show off his unique perspective, boast about his background, say some magic guru words, and the spell of Reckful's unhappiness would go away.
Linda Sears
2024-09-14 22:34:08 +0000 UTCI had thought of this guy as a grifter from the previous episodes, but mostly harmless. But his treatment of Reckful was ghoulish. Absolutely disgusting.
Joe Romel
2024-09-14 22:32:24 +0000 UTCI’m not a therapist or psychologist but i don’t think I’ve ever heard an interview that was so blatantly exploitative of someone who was clearly in emotional and psychological pain and needed help rather than this smug narcissistic twat talking about dharma. Chris in particular was way too easy on Dr. K.
Kelly Boyd
2024-09-14 21:57:41 +0000 UTCHoly hell the wrecktful (however he spelled it) parts were horrible. Almost couldn't listen to your guys clips of it. Malpractice. It's fucked
William LEGRAIN
2024-09-14 20:08:46 +0000 UTCDr. K: doctor of psychiatry and of spin! I can’t get over how manipulative he is. “Receiving a reprimand is good, actually!” Yes, because it helps people know not to trust you.
Amy
2024-09-14 18:53:48 +0000 UTCI really do listen to all episodes multiple times - I guess Chris's melodious voice and Matt's snarky comments appeal to me. ;-) But I won't be listening to this one again. It was so disturbing what K (I won't call him Dr.) does and so disgusting that the sanctions were not more severe. I might imagine criminal charges should not be out of the question. His "explanations" were shallow and hollow. I did force myself to finish the episode. I just feel so sorry for the people that really need help and are taken in by this con man. They deserve treatment and protection. I would hope that professionals in the field will ask their governing association to relook at this. I feel that harm is actually being done.
Joe
2024-09-14 18:19:14 +0000 UTC“almost a cliche of a power play” is odd but kind of interesting. 3:43:55
Dada de Broglie
2024-09-14 18:02:50 +0000 UTCUneducated fool here: very little that nobody else has covered. But what really sticks with me is, during his explanation of how what he does isn't therapy, there's something of the 'why are you punching yourself' about Dr K's tone. Stop calling me y'all.
George
2024-09-14 17:33:56 +0000 UTCJumping on the bandwagon of psychologists (of which I am one) expressing concerns here. After listening to Dr. Ks framing of what he does with Dr Mike, the contrast with what he ACTUALLY does in conversation with the streamer was viscerally upsetting to me. It felt like he demonstrated an astonishing lack of insight into his own behavior and how it might be perceived by or impact others.
Nerfherder
2024-09-14 16:49:06 +0000 UTCI think Dr Mike's issue is mainly that he's too agreeable, in the OCEAN sense of the term. He clearly agreed to things I doubt he actually believes, because he is conflict averse.
Mikael Heller Sahlgren
2024-09-14 14:44:35 +0000 UTCWell put. And surely you don't have to be a therapist to understand this, just a human with a modicum of empathy? Who the fuck gave this charlatan, this "doctor", a degree?
Mikael Heller Sahlgren
2024-09-14 14:33:39 +0000 UTCThis so called "doctor" is certainly culpable here. Morally if not causally.
Mikael Heller Sahlgren
2024-09-14 14:29:14 +0000 UTCSame. Moreover I think Matt and Chris did a very poor job of framing these audio clips.
Mikael Heller Sahlgren
2024-09-14 14:26:33 +0000 UTCMatt and Chris went way too soft on Dr K. That part with the depressed streamer... What the fucking hell?! Declarative statements on "real causes" on such flimsy foundations, ie with a very high risk of selling false hope... Just imagine a doctor prescribing a depressed patient Venlafaxine while repeatedly claiming it's a wonder drug that is guaranteed to cure their depression, and then two months later the patient kill themselves. That IS culpability. Yet that is to a high degree analogous to what this so called "doctor" did, the main difference being that Venlafaxine is actually proven to be better than a placebo on a population of depressed patients. But this so called doctor sold this troubled young man hope backed by... what exactly? Nothing. And when that hope failed to solidify, melted into air? Well, that's no skin of his back now is it. I found this incredibly disturbing, and the actuality of the causal impact is not the issue (who can tell what broke the camels back), it's the exploitative behavior on full display. It's the short term gains (selling hope) by risking long term detriment (hope fails to materialize). Manipulative and exploitative little cunt. I am not entirely convinced that it's perfectly ethical to play these clips on this podcast, although I understand the rationale. My issue is that the framing isn't sufficient in my view. Anyway the only episode I've had to turn off, fuck me I need therapy now. Luckily there's this online doctor I've heard so much about!
Mikael Heller Sahlgren
2024-09-14 14:08:40 +0000 UTCAnd I told you Dr K gives strong impression that it can’t be depression if it lasts longer than year! I see now he makes tactical disclaimers, but he then proceedes with differentiation periodic depression/not depression
aneladgam_varelse
2024-09-14 13:58:29 +0000 UTCAlso, Dr K's position that he's just dispensing crap therapy and doesn't therefore count as therapy is bollocks. The people on the other side of the video call will perceive it to be what it is - therapy. Just because you're being lazy with it doesn't mean the patient will not have the impression that they're undergoing a therapy session. He should be taking it even more seriously because of this perception. Never been so angry listening to an episode before
Daniel Richards
2024-09-14 13:46:45 +0000 UTCI’m like a middle of the range millennial who has worked with much older people my whole career. It is a generational difference and as much as I disagree, I know it comes from a place of genuine concern. Anti discrimination legislation is a depressingly recent. It’s not long since people lost their job or worse if they were gay, or pregnant, or getting married or mentally unwell. My Dad and grandma won’t even say the words autism or ADHD out loud because they are genuinely worried about what will happen to me. I reckon people have always been oversharers though, that seems to be a pretty human trait.
S Alexandra
2024-09-14 13:44:57 +0000 UTCI think the biggest thing to me to take away from this is that Dr K has mostly flown under the radar of this kind of critique as he's fulfilling a novel gap in a burgeoning culture. It is likely true that there are many in the gaming/internet ecosystem who would do well to be introduced to concepts relating to mental health and looking after themselves, and Dr K can speak to this. The issue is that the only thing he is scored on is how that community takes his advice. He's not subject to the same scrutiny as a psychologist would be, because he is scored on what gamers perceive to be a good psychologist. The accountability isn't there as he's dispensing advice to people who arent typically able to critically analyse the advice that comes, which is enough of a power dynamic in simple one to one therapy, let alone therapy dispensed and broadcast en masse. At the end of the day he's filling a niche in a community that hasn't openly been subject to those concepts, and as such has had little to no accountability from that culture. That's why shit like this can be ignored or pushed away.
Daniel Richards
2024-09-14 13:42:59 +0000 UTCReally interesting perspective! Thanks for sharing! The over-sharing part reminded me of this time when I was in high school and they had my grade do these emotional sharing sessions to feel closer to each other and increase empathy. We were all put into groups. Some people shared really personal things but I didn’t feel comfortable doing so. After, one of my acquaintances came to tell me all about the personal struggles of another one of our classmates from his group. Yikes. You’d think the adult organizers would’ve predicted that. Asking as a young millennial, do you think it’s a generational thing, or young people more generally who over-share?
Amy
2024-09-14 12:05:41 +0000 UTCLoving all the psychologist and practitioners in the comments. I have no relevant expertise, but if someone said to me, “I wake up and don’t care if I live or die most days,” I’d think, “sounds like depression.”
Raysofmarie
2024-09-14 11:58:19 +0000 UTCThe saying “I will love you for two years,” and taking it back. I had to walk away for a minute
Raysofmarie
2024-09-14 11:47:45 +0000 UTCI can't finish this episode. I've listened to every episode until now. This episode is making me angry and sad at the same time.
HustleTron9000
2024-09-14 11:31:41 +0000 UTCclinical psychologist, psychotherapist and researcher here: This is disgusting on so many levels. Like a surgeon cutting people open with a dirty kitchen knife on a live stream, excusing himself with something like: "Look, this is clearly not proper surgery, so it can`t be bad"
Bliblablub
2024-09-14 10:33:12 +0000 UTCOK, I've heard the rest and its basically a standard episode beyond my breaking point (the repeat of his treatment of his wife on a shared pod). Somehow the content to that point just seems exceedingly charged -- especially I would imagine for anyone in a fragile place. It's very ugly to hear someone in a position to help listening to someone in obvious great distress and bulldoze through that to promote his own thing -- all the while (as a listener) knowing where it was all going to end. I think any time you are depicting a story of actual suicide and you are running recordings from events that clearly are related, you just have to treat it as potentially radioactive for listeners whose state you cannot control or accurately guess. This deserves a more strongly worded up front warning *as part of the audio* -- give people an offramp and prompt to assess themselves as to their desire to continue into the darkness with you.
Tom Allison
2024-09-14 09:13:48 +0000 UTCHe seemed to be working up to some kind of bootstraps speech about how the guy could make this game and change his own life, but suicidal depression just does not work like that. "I’m going to tell you how to find meaning in life" is kinda standard guru stuff but seeing it in a therapy context is genuinely disturbing
Meg
2024-09-14 07:59:22 +0000 UTCI couldn't believe it. He's telling a guy with a history of suicide attempts that "no, you're not depressed, your life just objectively sucks and lacks all meaning". What the fuck is he doing?
332
2024-09-14 07:39:00 +0000 UTCI shudder to think of this. At least I still had my wits about me and could advocate for myself. I hate to think how much worse it would have been if I was also mentally fragile and having to deal with that bunch of absolute bullies. Since being diagnosed I have now joined a foundation (support group + advocacy agency) with other people with related rare illnesses and we have all collectively had such a nightmare with the medical establishment. There are some good doctors to. In fact some of them are even part of the foundation. But there are WAY too many bad eggs. It reminds me of this interesting/depressing book I read about corrupt leaders and it said basically that hyper hierarchical organisations/institutions attract corrupt individuals. Especially when there is a lot of money and power and status involved. Flat hierarchies meanwhile actually attract more ethical people.
Emma
2024-09-14 07:24:37 +0000 UTCI accidentally pressed enter too soon but I wanted to add that I can’t believe a clinical psychiatrist apparently doesn’t know (or doesn’t care?) that "your life lacks meaning" is a very dangerous thing to say to someone told you that his depression manifests as feeling as though there’s no point in getting out of bed. The last thing you need in that state is external validation of your most irrational thoughts.
Meg
2024-09-14 07:17:28 +0000 UTCOk, listening to this actually made me angry in a way that no other episode has managed to so far. Kind of impressive in itself considering the competition.
332
2024-09-14 07:08:32 +0000 UTCReckful and I were the same age and I’ve also had persistent depression since I was a teenager so this was a really rough listen. I wish that this guy could have gotten better treatment. SSRIs saved my life
Meg
2024-09-14 07:00:47 +0000 UTCWe've all been there!
Emma
2024-09-14 06:55:07 +0000 UTCI agree with you Emma. I once shared my feelings in one of these work sessions. I am now in my late 70s and still cringe at the memory of it.
Frances Sebesta
2024-09-14 06:51:11 +0000 UTCAs a ex Dr K fan, I’m somewhat proud of myself that I fell for most guru of them all. Weird feeling. Like exoneration, Dr K is so good at manipulation that it wasn’t my fault?
aneladgam_varelse
2024-09-14 06:49:18 +0000 UTCJust 1 hour 20 in. As a psychotherapist who works in the NHS, the way Dr K live streamed that interaction, his leading questions, his shocking lack of empathy, his seeming utter agenda he was pushing, his carelessness. It’s made me so angry and just sad. As a therapist, or just a decent human being, you have to tread so carefully when speaking to someone who is being vulnerable and who is vulnerable like this. There has to be some foundations of displays of empathy and understanding, and a huge dollop of humility that at first we really have no idea about the complexity of a person’s problems and whole life. Never heard a piece of recording from you guys that’s got to me like this, and you cover some of the most insufferable pricks on the internet.
Matty Laycock
2024-09-14 06:23:28 +0000 UTCSorry to hear this! Yes, I believe surgeons can score high on the psychopath test so you can believe there is a kind of institutional narcissm. The hierarchy is extraordinary - my background was originally in special needs housing where the hierarchy is pretty flat and housing law is the boss. Moving to social services is quite strange after that because the senior social workers have to make the decisions. Health is just shocking in its constant reference upwards! There are specialist doctors who keep there feet on the ground and are lovely people .... but many, at work at least, are used to being Gods. Under section though the institutionalisation of the staff really kicks in! They 'just follow orders' in a really disturbing way, which often includes enforced IM injections against the patients wishes .... which then doesn't work because the patient is too agitated to then they give more of the same. Which then leads to all sorts of loss of dignity.
Nina Davies
2024-09-14 06:23:22 +0000 UTCThe use of “I didn’t commit offical medical ethics violations because of lawyering and technicalities” to absolve yourself of the general ethical dilemma is mind blowing. He must know that’s what he’s doing. Not just a tool, but a complete sociopath.
Ryan Booker
2024-09-14 05:33:00 +0000 UTCHis use of ‘clinical’ and ‘clinical medicine’ is particularly nefarious and load-bearing. Along with clinical psychologists and psychiatrists, counselling psychologists, psychotherapists, and counsellors also do ‘talk therapy’ with clients technically, not in a ‘clinical’ sense (not diagnosing). They're all subject to strict codes of ethics as they work in a register with obvious power dynamics, amongst other risks. He's clearly working in a therapeutic register, which I found disturbing to listen to.
John Johnson
2024-09-14 04:59:28 +0000 UTCThanks Emma, and I really do appreciate that, despite my oversharing tendencies, we do need to look at how to talk about it effectively. I’m not sure my way is the best way, or if there is a best way
S Alexandra
2024-09-14 04:20:47 +0000 UTCI am sorry you went through that 😔 the hypocrisy is hard to stomach! But good on you for standing up to it! It's not easy!
Emma
2024-09-14 03:09:03 +0000 UTCGreat points Emma, and even as an over-sharer I find myself nodding about R U OK Day. I have had to disclose mental illness in my workplace, multiple times over my life, it was my legal responsibility RE safety at work. Despite being proactive, and knowing the potential ramifications each time, the actions of supposedly “informed” individuals are uniformly destructive and unhelpful l. Knowledge doesn’t mean people do the right thing. Now recovered, I still work with the same people, and who are literally employed to raise awareness of this very issue. They all had a great time at R U OK Day morning tea this week. The thing that keeps me strong is talking about my experience as often and as loudly as I can. And showing that being honest and forthright was the right thing to do in the end.
S Alexandra
2024-09-14 02:56:38 +0000 UTCLike probing someone over and over again saying, “Does this hurt? Does this hurt…”
S Alexandra
2024-09-14 02:17:33 +0000 UTCI agree, I'd be unsurprised if he'd already crossed the guru/cult leader line. I’ve personal experience of coercive control, and my job involves educating health workers & the general public about consent. He's already demonstrating wreckless coercive behaviour, and I fear the Board reprimand will only fuel his persecution narrative. Few jurisdictions, if any, have sufficient legal remedy for this.
S Alexandra
2024-09-14 02:14:21 +0000 UTCAh crap, you’re right!
S Alexandra
2024-09-14 01:47:27 +0000 UTCHi guys, love the episode. I am a psychologist (also from Australia, also not clinical) and wanted to add a bit about Dr Ks retort that if what he's doing in the interview resembles how he would treat his family then its okay. This is very backwards. In my personal relationship, and this is true for most psychologists I know on a personal level, we put our "therapist" hats on when our family member is going through an emotional crisis. This doesn't mean we diagnose, assess or make recommendation, but we use the therapeutic microskills that form the foundation of the therapeutic relationship with our loved ones. Think reflection, empathetic understanding, paraphrasing etc. Why is this acceptable? Because in that relationship there is a reasonable expectations that I will attend to the emotional needs of my wife in a vulnerable and intimate moment, and the way I do that just so happens to be in a more polished and skillful way than most would expect. In this case, I am not violating ethics dispite my conduct resembling talk therapy because there is an understanding that even though I am a psychologist, I am acting in my capacity as a husband. With a stranger however, there is no such expectation. It would be really strange if I approached a random stranger who is in crisis and spoke with them in the same way I do with my wife. It would be really inappropriate. But if I approached that person and started the conversation with "Hi I am a registered psychologist, I noticed you were in crisis" they would be much more receptive. This is because they view me as a psychologist who is acting in their official capacity as a psychologist. In other words, I am conducting therapy outside of an established client-therapist relationship. This is the key: where are the relational expectations that justify conduct coming from? Is it from my personal relationship or my professional status? In the case of Dr K, it is very clearly his professional status.
Sammy2000
2024-09-14 01:41:35 +0000 UTCIs it known if Dr K can laugh? I don't think he changed his tone from paternalistic, psychiatric lecturing once in all the clips played. What a humorless, sociopathic fuckwit. edit: OK, he did literally laugh during the Ludwig section, but then switched back almost immediately as noted by Chris and Matt
Jenson
2024-09-14 01:25:43 +0000 UTCThis is disturbing. Sort of ad hoc human experimentation with live tipping. Definitely over the line.
Roscoe 112
2024-09-14 00:39:31 +0000 UTCOk, I'll save it for when I'm feeling particularly masochistic.
Will
2024-09-14 00:26:14 +0000 UTCAbsolutely heart rending. Listening to Alex Jones spin his nonsense is irritating but part of you blames the gullible fools who eat it up and ask for more. But hearing someone parade someone’s pain on a live stream with the donation sounds going off in the background…rage inducing. This charismatic narcissist would be a dangerous cult leader if he wasn’t too self absorbed to found a group cause. Hearing Matt get quieter as his despair and rage increased was just as poignant.
Michael Delaney
2024-09-14 00:16:24 +0000 UTCGosh, I am half way through this therapy-view and I am starting to think Dr K is the most evil of the gurus you cover. He is clearly smart and very slippery. He also seems to believe in what he is doing.
Tim Tripp
2024-09-14 00:02:29 +0000 UTCThis might be my first can not finish. It's just making me too sad. Poor guy :-(
Emma
2024-09-13 23:29:44 +0000 UTCThat bit made me so so sad 😞
Emma
2024-09-13 23:23:43 +0000 UTCI'm curious if you feel the same way about Esther Perell. She also shares appointments although I guess she does it more responsibly by doing it anonymously on audio only and removing identifying details. But I have actually found some of her appointments quite good. But I'm not an expert on the ethics of therapy.
Emma
2024-09-13 23:21:21 +0000 UTCThis is so interesting. I've never thought of over sharing like this before as being part of the problem. But I have noticed my younger friends and colleagues, and sometimes even my 40ish friends do share really personal information quite freely and then get hurt/ angry that other people often don't respond sensitively. I feel for them though because I think they can be confused by the sort of corporate double speak where employees keep presenting that they care about mental health and diversity (like R U OK day) and you should feel free to share your inner life. But you really really shouldn't!! I'm always trying to warn my younger colleagues that stuff is not real!! Don't share personal stuff with your boss, it doesn't lead to anything good!
Emma
2024-09-13 23:17:55 +0000 UTCNonsense, I don't have to ask questions to see what your problem is.
Roland Weber
2024-09-13 22:54:57 +0000 UTCNina. It's not just psychiatrists! I think specialist doctors in general can behave like this. I had a nightmare of living with an undiagnosed rare illness for 10 years and I can attest that it's normal for all types of specialists doctors to dismiss physical symptoms as being mental health related and then to say all sorts of inappropriate and victim blamey things about their patients mental health, in spite of not even having a qualification in that field. Maybe that's why I'm also not that shocked by this. I've heard worse :-(
Emma
2024-09-13 22:51:23 +0000 UTCIm 3h in. Actually the only problem with Dr K is that he’s empathic, too emphatic, and maybe generally too brilliant. A gift to humankind. But we’re too stupid and narrow minded to appreciate it.
aneladgam_varelse
2024-09-13 22:41:37 +0000 UTCI’m a therapist in Canada and I’m fairly confident I would be booted from my association for doing what Dr K does here. Completely disgusting. This makes me so angry. Also, Dr Mike usually seems fairly smart and on the ball, but Dr K sure bamboozles him over and over.
Isaac Rosenberg
2024-09-13 21:22:28 +0000 UTCi always imagined Chris looking like Richard Harris in Patriot Games, so yes, the first time i saw a video i was QUITE shocked.
Kathleen May
2024-09-13 21:04:13 +0000 UTCGahhhh my workday fell into a Dr. K hole. Very painful to listen to. What a horrible human. Thank you for all the work you did on these three episodes. I am sooooo glad this is the last one. Gargantuan triumvirate indeed.
Nell Van Vorst
2024-09-13 20:30:30 +0000 UTCYou'll have to ask about my childhood to uncover that!
Adam Sher
2024-09-13 20:22:54 +0000 UTCnot sure whether you're being masochistic or sadistic here
Roland Weber
2024-09-13 20:18:48 +0000 UTCI must admit that I never read the episode notes before listening. Not that I had needed a trigger warning, but maybe it would be better to put that at the top of the notes, where more people will catch it.
Roland Weber
2024-09-13 20:17:12 +0000 UTCP1 and P2 were the warm-up. P3 is the full dose.
Roland Weber
2024-09-13 20:11:57 +0000 UTCI’m at photography bit. Omg I’m so angry at Dr K’s leading questions!
aneladgam_varelse
2024-09-13 20:10:53 +0000 UTCAfter listening I’m very surprised the MA medical board only gave him a reprimand. His behavior was so unethical that it’s miraculous he kept his license.
Martin Birch
2024-09-13 20:08:19 +0000 UTCIsn't there a Gurometer episode coming? 😈
Roland Weber
2024-09-13 20:06:31 +0000 UTCI'm just over halfway through, and desperately need a break.
Roland Weber
2024-09-13 20:03:30 +0000 UTCHoping for a Right of Reply!
Adam Sher
2024-09-13 19:48:50 +0000 UTCDear god. I would compare Dr K's lack of any shred of empathy and compassion to that of a shoal of hungry piranhas, but I think the piranhas would be mortified. Justifiably. If anything this is bolstering my half-arsed take that while ethical psychotherapists see transference as potentially problematic, secular gurus seek it out and intentionally try and inculcate it in their audiences. I think the kind of narcissists drawn to the secular(ish) guru role intersect really badly with psychotherapy which already has enough of a problem in attracting the wrong sort of the people for the job (as Nina has already pointed out). A really toxic combination. I mean, I have my problems with Maté, but he's nowhere near as malignant as Dr K. I pity his poor kids
Paul Bowman
2024-09-13 19:01:23 +0000 UTCI’m only halfway through and cannot even express the rage I’m feeling towards how he’s talking to the streamer about depression. To have a mental health professional be so dismissive is outrageous. As someone who has had their share of mental health struggles this is absolutely heartbreaking to listen to.
KT
2024-09-13 18:38:04 +0000 UTCVery interesting Nina… and just a little depressing!
Christopher Kavanagh
2024-09-13 18:28:22 +0000 UTCThe bottom sentences of the episode notes contained a trigger warning.
Adam Sher
2024-09-13 17:27:38 +0000 UTCI didn't finish this (yet). I really hope you have something to say to suggest that this is not representative of the lion's share of the psychotherapeutic community. This guy appears to be very highly credentialed in that field and he is a charlatan and knave. That combination is just a tad bit trust-destroying with regards to a lifeline upon which many depend, at one point or another, in their journey.
Tom Allison
2024-09-13 17:04:28 +0000 UTCI somehow missed those warnings -- I guess this is a downside to the chaotic distribution situation that is now the norm.
Tom Allison
2024-09-13 16:50:46 +0000 UTCUgh. I really think this is the first of your content I wish there had been some sort of trigger warning on. I'm used to being outraged at many of the assholes you all cover, but this was far more psychologically-charged-snuff-filmy than I was prepared for when I sat down to it. It is not for the faint of heart or prone to nausea or just a little in your feels kind of day folks. I would have preferred to have put it off until I felt better able to contemplate it with a large measure of emotional distance. Repeating that clip of him being a gas-lighting evil prick to his wife at one point just made me have to put it all down. I still believe in your mission -- but, fuck, if the brew gets this bad, please give a warning, next time.
Tom Allison
2024-09-13 16:46:02 +0000 UTCAs a licensed clinical psychologist in the US, I can say that Dr. K's behavior is troubling. Like, I want to make some clever joke about it ("his red flags are raising red flags!"), but really it's just very troubling. Psychiatrists have a separate ethical code, but as far as psychologists go, he (in my judgment) is seriously contravening our principles of Beneficence (acting in the best interest of others, especially in the context of treatment) and Fidelity (upholding professional standards, again especially in the context of treatment).
Shaggy Rabbit
2024-09-13 16:19:07 +0000 UTC"Your problem isn't that you have depression. Your problem is that your life is meaningless." -World's Worst Therapist
brianshmrian
2024-09-13 16:18:33 +0000 UTCThrough working in social services mental health teams I have come across quite a number of NHS Psychiatrists . The stereotype of the massive ego and the huge white Mercedes holds true in a surprising number of cases. Child Psychiatrists seem much more humble and human for some reason. All are really bad a reading case histories and very much like their own theories. Most patients have multiple diagnoses. In the NHS, medication is the only treatment at a clinical level (therapy is sub clinical) so really a new diagnosis is really associated with adding another medication. Therefore Dr K didn't seem that bad to me. The fact that he live streamed an incredibly vulnerable man is shocking .... but really not as shocking as what happens behind closed doors, especially to patients under section. And in the community patients get no attention really so I find it hard to condemn someone who is attempting human contact. He is an egotistical twat who loves the sound of his own voice. He is behaving unethically but not as unethically as most, I would suggest.
Nina Davies
2024-09-13 14:52:36 +0000 UTCThanks for clarifying!
aneladgam_varelse
2024-09-13 14:48:51 +0000 UTCFor the sake of circumventing this legalistic BS, let me rephrase. I'm not asking if you're acting ethically. I'm asking: are you an irresponsible (and insufferable) cunt?
Chomagerider
2024-09-13 14:22:42 +0000 UTCThis SOB should be stripped of his license.
Mike Nelson
2024-09-13 14:18:17 +0000 UTCOof this is a hard listen. On a lighter note Muhammad Ali was not to my knowledge named after the Roman Cassius but rather the Kentucky abolitionist politician and ambassador to Russia Cassius Marcellus Clay who's daughters were prominent first wave feminists. Wikipedia link for those interested https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cassius_Marcellus_Clay_%28politician%29?wprov=sfla1
Josh Bell
2024-09-13 14:18:16 +0000 UTCI'm 1h44min in and it's worse.
lun
2024-09-13 13:40:07 +0000 UTCSorry, I refuse to listen to another 4hours of this guy.
H
2024-09-13 13:22:23 +0000 UTCBefore I listen, can anyone who has confirm that it's not the excruciating experience P1 and 2 were?
Will
2024-09-13 13:12:42 +0000 UTCNo, not at all really. It’s just that I don’t think it’s necessarily very helpful to normalize conversations like these. I’m all for communicating different helpful perspectives and techniques. I just don’t think that Dr K has a very helpful way of doing it as far as I can tell. Maybe psychotherapy could do with some demystifying, and maybe also some deflation (I do feel that the effects are rather blown out of proportion in modern culture). However I think that what Dr K is doing is the opposite. He is mystifying it by saying that psychotherapy is something completely different, that most people would not understand and he seems to be making very bold claims on a very little evidence.
Marfolini
2024-09-13 13:00:38 +0000 UTCIf you are a licensed professional, and someone talks to you about an issue relevant to your expertise, that person expects an expert's answer. It is essentially impossible for Dr K to not give medical advice in these settings. His claim that because he's not following the protocols is not a defense. It's an admission of poor practices or malpractice!
Adam Sher
2024-09-13 12:57:51 +0000 UTCSaving this one for a 12 hour plus ride I’m taking next week back to the US from Puglia (where I’m hanging with a bunch of local musicians and a bevy of Italian Australians who are so rad!). A little nervous 🥺
Monica B.
2024-09-13 12:54:57 +0000 UTCRight on. Around 40-45 minutes in he says he doesn't do a complete job. My interpretation of that is he is, pardon my technical jargon, half assing it.
Adam Sher
2024-09-13 12:43:12 +0000 UTCDo you think showing to the masses tools from psychotherapist toolkit is dangerous/harmful? I understand your comment like you wish people were more aware of the therapy setting. Or therapeutic relationship and therapy setting > tips and tricks, techniques
aneladgam_varelse
2024-09-13 12:40:01 +0000 UTCYea, in all seriousness, this is really disturbing and infuriating.
Liz Tily
2024-09-13 12:22:39 +0000 UTCI’ve worked as a clinician for over 10 years, and the only personal reference point I have to what Dr. K is doing is during the pandemic when I would do a lot of video calls with patients. I remember being taken off guard by some patients who would take the calls while on public transport or in busy parks and so forth. We discussed this at my workplace and the conclusion was very clearly that if we were to use video calls we should take care that the patients are as private and safe as they can be. We made it a general guideline to inform patients that they should be in a quiet room where they could be alone for the duration of the call. It is just not possible to do a proper therapy session in the context of frequent interruptions, and we tend to change what we say in subtle ways when we know people are listening (even though we’re not talking directly to them). The thing that has struck me is that the problem many young people face is not related to stigma and therefore not being able to talk about things. It’s rather that they don’t properly regulate what they share and with whom. They therefore end up in painful situations with people that do not have their best interest at heart. I think that the setting gets showy and to be honest quite weird with this whole « just having conversations » thing. I’m left with the impression that he might be making an existing problem worse, by normalizing these weird pseudo-psychological conversations . I also feel that the whole AoE-healing thing is hogwash. I think stuff like this has zero effect on population mental health. I suppose one could make a case for demystifying therapy by actually showing some normal therapy, but that isn’t what he’s doing, and that would probably be (as Matt and Chris point out) boring for most people to watch.
Marfolini
2024-09-13 12:21:48 +0000 UTCThanks for the warnings about the darker side of this episode. It helps to know what to expect when I have time to listen.
Linda Sears
2024-09-13 11:10:01 +0000 UTCIt feels like Mystery Science Theatre 3,000. I’m Mike, you guys are the robots and the bad movie is the guru and their bloody narrative!
Liz Tily
2024-09-13 11:04:31 +0000 UTCHere’s a “narrative” …FUCKING HELL!
Liz Tily
2024-09-13 11:02:21 +0000 UTCThis is really disturbing and sad stuff. Dr K comes across like an over-confident miracle healer who’s actually quite agressive and overpowering in his approach. I actually think that this episode might be helpful for many people, so thank you 👏
IDW Dinner Club
2024-09-13 10:59:26 +0000 UTCDouble click on that and you’ll realize it’s a catalytic memetic which parallels the geometries of coherence, and in this case the modifier EITHER provokes OR manifests (depending on your paradigm of course) an impulse which we—homos—recognize: its modal jazz, and we can’t let the dissonance detract from the whole; it’s just a Phrygian transient (so to speak)
D
2024-09-13 10:58:12 +0000 UTCHe deserved so much better
S Alexandra
2024-09-13 10:51:20 +0000 UTCThe ring has been thrown into the fires of Mt Doom 😬🫠🫡
S Alexandra
2024-09-13 10:49:55 +0000 UTCIck. For the non Australians, I recommend a national treasure, Mr Andrew Denton, who shows it is possible to be a psychologist and publicly interview someone responsibly: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYQVY_RP8H8
Jack
2024-09-13 10:30:01 +0000 UTCWheres part 4
Charlie Friedberg
2024-09-13 10:29:07 +0000 UTCIt is done.
Christopher Kavanagh
2024-09-13 10:25:43 +0000 UTCDr. K’s defense is that it’s not really unethical to do psychotherapy on stream because he sucks so badly. Have I missed anything ?
Marfolini
2024-09-13 09:51:41 +0000 UTCJust clicked start and saw the run time. Are you guys doing alright? I’ll listen to the whole thing, but like I hope you’ve reached some type of catharsis about this character
S Alexandra
2024-09-13 09:27:45 +0000 UTCConstipation is caused by an imbalance of the vata dosha
kurdelis
2024-09-13 09:15:06 +0000 UTCTreating corporations the same as people <- that’s why in USA principle of free speech was applied to pharmaceutical corporations and court allowed them advertise prescription drugs
aneladgam_varelse
2024-09-13 08:57:45 +0000 UTCWe need mental health unawareness
aneladgam_varelse
2024-09-13 08:24:14 +0000 UTCI always imagined Matt as caricature of a surfer because I stereotype Australians and Matt didn’t fail me
aneladgam_varelse
2024-09-13 08:13:28 +0000 UTC🫡
aneladgam_varelse
2024-09-13 07:09:28 +0000 UTCThat poor guy needed help 🥹
Jill
2024-09-13 06:39:32 +0000 UTCHe is not advancing therapeutic diagnoses .. he is advancing therapeutic diagnostic HYPOTHESES!!
Jill
2024-09-13 06:01:11 +0000 UTCWaste of a psychiatric degree ..and dangerous 🥹
Jill
2024-09-13 05:58:44 +0000 UTCOkay into the episode now..... I have no words.
logancain1505
2024-09-13 05:48:13 +0000 UTCOof. That bit near the start where they talk about spending 2 years together and the man he’s talking to cries. I thought the first two were hard going because of what a tool this guy is. But man this is rough.
Ryan Booker
2024-09-13 05:19:01 +0000 UTCThank you gents. I used to think there was nothing fishy about Dr. K. I even took part in a group “coaching” program his company ran. Tbh I did get value from it but it felt essentially like therapy without the legal accountability issues. You guys really make me reflect on the exact words people are saying and breaking down what they mean. That is quite valuable.
Jake Tobiason
2024-09-13 03:47:27 +0000 UTCglad you're back! I welcome a 4 hour marathon.
Sonje Finnestad
2024-09-13 03:45:27 +0000 UTCYep.
Christopher Kavanagh
2024-09-13 03:33:49 +0000 UTCThis is pretty hard to listen to
James P.
2024-09-13 03:26:18 +0000 UTC4.5 hours. Shit a brick.
Ryan Booker
2024-09-13 02:56:36 +0000 UTC4.5 hrs. Longer than the Sam and Balaji conversation. Impressive
Kyle Wilson
2024-09-13 02:55:31 +0000 UTCHigh quality banter😂 🪒🧔♂️🧗♂️ 🏃♂️💇♂️
Lillie
2024-09-13 02:46:58 +0000 UTCBeen waiting for this one! You guys have helped me understand dr.k a lot better. While I still respect a lot of what he's said, some stuff just crosses a line for me. Thanks for the episode!
logancain1505
2024-09-13 01:49:34 +0000 UTCThank you for your dedication 🙏
Lillie
2024-09-13 01:32:39 +0000 UTCHeck yeah! Look at that run time.
Sam Wells
2024-09-13 01:32:21 +0000 UTC
