Decoding The Gurus / Supplementary Material 4: Passive Aggressive Therapists, Shit-posting Monks, and Weaponised Naivety

That was extremely uncomfortable to listen to. It really triggered a feeling in me that I haven’t felt or thought about for a long long time. That dude is dangerous.

Sarah S

2024-04-30 18:28:51 +0000 UTC

40!! jezaz i thought he was just a bairn🤣

Ian Shield

2024-04-24 18:54:45 +0000 UTC

Definitely!

Christopher Kavanagh

2024-04-22 20:21:19 +0000 UTC

I'm happy you broke decoding and supplementary materials into separate shows. I'm actually more interested in the supplementary materials. Sure, I like tuning in when you decode a guru I know (Sam Harris, Sean Carrol) but I'm here for entertainment and hearing the latest on the classic gurus spiraling descent is the most amusing.

Jonathan Cano

2024-04-22 19:11:25 +0000 UTC

And pretending he was being a really healthy communicator by doing that on stream.

Erin

2024-04-22 08:40:25 +0000 UTC

That Dr. K creepiness recalled Stefan Molyneux's bizarre 'Real Time Relationships'.

Heather Geverding

2024-04-21 22:56:25 +0000 UTC

Im worried for Dr Ks wife. That was such classic controlling behaviour. Hate to think what he's like in private.

Ema Corro

2024-04-20 07:16:01 +0000 UTC

No. That's exactly what YOU'RE expecting. Because you're wanting Lex to be a traditional journalist. That is NOT what he's doing. He's helping them articulate THEIR view, for YOU to see as directly as possible. (And he does push back in some cases, but only to play devil's advocate.) That way, you can make your own decision about that person's view. The point is not to turn it into a battle of beliefs. The point is to see a person and their perspective through THEIR eyes and experience, even if their views are different than yours, and even if you disagree with them. It's a completely different exercise. That's what people are getting wrong. I get what Lex is trying to do, and it's the reason I watch him.

Andy

2024-04-19 16:54:48 +0000 UTC

When you are interviewing someone you shouldn't be representing their views. They are there to represent their own views. The interviewer should be challenging those views to fully explore their guests viewpoint.

Occasional Gene Editor

2024-04-19 14:40:17 +0000 UTC

Maybe it's your face 😂

Paul Sees

2024-04-18 10:39:06 +0000 UTC

my probably tinfoil hat theory is that as a SV guy he's well aware how game and network theories work on the internet. He's algorithmically optimizing. ;-)

S Garvey

2024-04-17 21:53:40 +0000 UTC

public therapy or struggle session?

Jonathan Cano

2024-04-17 02:35:46 +0000 UTC

I grew up in an atheist/agnostic home, so my knowledge of Christianity came from other sources. I am all on board with Jesus’s message of taking care of the most vulnerable and showing love to the stranger, being peaceful, and so forth. It’s too bad that this message often gets hidden behind all sorts of negative behaviors and beliefs.

Linda Sears

2024-04-16 20:40:59 +0000 UTC

I shall give that a shot! Thanks for the recommendation :)

Matt

2024-04-16 09:09:06 +0000 UTC

The argument here is Lex does not, in fact, treat all guests equally. He pushes some harder than others. He is more argumentative for particular points of view. Lex claims he does the same thing with everyone and has no bias. But that’s patently not true. And he injects his biases into conversations. You are repeating Lex’s claim, and we are arguing that his claim is contradicted by his content, as we’ve documented several times. Having long-form interviews with controversial people isn’t the issue. There are many, many journalists who do this and do not receive the same criticism as Lex. The argument is Lex presents a specific, highly cultivated persona which many people fall for but which is constantly contradicted by his actions. Yes, Lex is almost certainly moderating his subreddit and lying about it. We’ve covered the evidence for this on the podcast, but to recap: his mods don’t post anything, they don’t do anything else on Reddit, they also ban people who have only interacted with Lex, and he manages all of his online accounts in the same way. He blocks anyone who makes even mild criticism unless they are famous and part of the Elon/Rogan sphere. He then blames all his blocks on interns/managers. Lex is a 40-year-old man posing as a naive 20-something. He fawns over Rogan, Musk, and previously Putin in a way that is completely contradictory to how he treats people like Fauci or Biden. You might also consider that Lex is someone who has NEVER been interviewed by anyone critical of him. The guy is 40 years old, an influential millionaire who regularly conducts puff pieces for billionaires and polemical politicians, and he’s never sat down for one critical interview.

Christopher Kavanagh

2024-04-15 23:48:17 +0000 UTC

It definitely took me a while to get into the show. They don't exactly go out of their way to make it feel accessible to a more normie crowd and they're incredibly irreverent at times. If you want a good episode of the actual show, I think "Longspermism" is probably the best one they've ever recorded. It's pretty dense and some of the rants from Matt take a few listens to fully digest, but it's about the purest distallation of the show and the ethos of the hosts that you're likely to find in a single ep. So if you hate it, well, at least you tried. It should be unpaywalled on Spotify too.

Devin Poore

2024-04-15 22:18:38 +0000 UTC

@Matt: I never claimed he treats all topics equally. The guy is entitled to have personal opinions, and decide who he wants on the podcast, and decide who he wants to be friends with IRL. However he generally treats all guests the same way when he interviews them, in that he respects their views, and tries to get them to articulate those views for the audience, from THEIR perspective. He tries to open a door to let listeners try to see things from another person's perspective. That has massive value. Whether or not you agree with them is a completely different story, and the podcast isn't trying to bias you one way or the other. That's actually a good thing, because it lets people make up their own minds. He's trying to bring people information (flawed and fucked up as it may be sometimes) as direct from the source as possible. THAT is the point. He's not trying to be a journalist. He's being an interviewer, and there's a difference. Not that he's always perfect at it, but you're being critical him for not being something he actively is trying NOT to be. His style has value, and I'm not aware of other podcasters who operate in this way, which is the main reason I listen, even with guests I dislike. I've been able to understand many guests better through his approach (in addition to understanding HOW fucked up they are, and what their views are based on). And they are only able to share these things because he makes them feel comfortable enough to do so, by making an honest effort to see things though their eyes (which note is NOT the same as supporting, platforming, endorsing, or otherwise agreeing with them). To criticize him for that is to miss an entire dimension of how he actively tries to operate in his interviews. I love so many things about you guys and your podcast, and you're right on the money 99% of the time. But this is one blind spot I wish you guys would try a bit harder to work on.

Andy

2024-04-15 21:25:53 +0000 UTC

Ah nice, I saw that but didn't check it out yet. Yeah, I like similar podcasts like QAA, I think I just haven't gelled w it or grokked the format of it yet.

Matt

2024-04-15 21:13:53 +0000 UTC

Valid comment. I'm not on Twitter, so I have no firsthand experience with it, though I've heard of the behavior. Do you know that it's actually him that is doing the banning? I know a lot of high-profile people don't manage their own social media accounts, and I'd be surprised if he was behind every action. Nonetheless, it's a fair critique. He's obviously someone who has an aversion to conflict, so I could see him banning hostility, whether actual or falsely perceived. But I'd be interested in seeing the full spectrum of comments have been banned. However even fully conceding that point, his Twitter behavior isn't the bulk of what DTG criticizes him for, (e.g., this latest case in this ep). They like to ride him for not picking a side, or not being more confrontational, or just being someone who values the things he does, even if he isn't perfect in them 100% of the time. However those are all strawmen when he publicly states what his approach to interviewing is, and he is consistent in it. His approach is the main reason I listen to him, even with guests I dislike, and it results in seeing into people in ways you can't get otherwise (and that no other interviewer provides the same way). So my comments still stand, regardless of what his behavior is on Twitter (which from what I hear is a cesspool all around).

Andy

2024-04-15 21:03:15 +0000 UTC

Lex doesn’t treat all guests or topics equally. Compare him talking to the historian about Jan 6th / Sam Harris on Trump vs. How he treats Michael Malice or any of his guests raising criticism about Biden. The issue isn’t that Lex is apolitical, it’s that he’s obviously not apolitical and fails to acknowledge it while back-patting himself for being non tribal. He spent thanksgiving with the Trumps! Do you think it’s equally likely he would strike up a friendship with the Biden’s? Lex is better than Rogan and has recently done a better job in hosting a variety of guests, but he constantly fails to recognise his biases and they are transparent.

Christopher Kavanagh

2024-04-15 20:48:40 +0000 UTC

If you love these things you're describing about Lex's ethos so much, how do you square his near pathological reflex to banning people, on Reddit and Twitter (and possibly elsewhere), who advance mild critiques of the guy? Doesn't that fly in the face of everything he purports to be about: being willing to listen to anyone, claiming that everyone has a perspective worth exploring, spreading love and understanding, etc, etc? When the actions of someone you admire, like Lex, clearly diverge from their stated principles, isn't that cause for alarm on some level?

Devin Poore

2024-04-15 20:24:54 +0000 UTC

I do like Chapo, but I get that it's not gonna be to everyone's taste. That said, you're absolutely right that Hell on Earth is worth a month's subscription to their Patreon. Hell of Presidents is also an equally impressive effort from them.

Devin Poore

2024-04-15 20:15:17 +0000 UTC

I love this podcast, but the one thing I think you guys are completely wrong about is Lex. I'd love to see either of you steelman his position. He tries his best to represent the OTHER person's view when he interviews them. And as a listener, that's what I want. If the guest is an ass, they will more than convey that on their own. I don't need a host picking a side or pushing an agenda. As a listener and interviewer, you actually get LESS information out of a guest that way. There's nothing wrong with how Lex chooses to be. You can criticize him for chasing success as much as any other public podcast figures, that's fine.. But as an interviewer, he brings things out of his guests that you would not hear if he conducted himself differently. I'd rather have more people trying to listen to each other than picking sides and dividing society further. There are already plenty of podcasts for that.

Andy

2024-04-15 18:54:47 +0000 UTC

Barbie makes fun of a lot of things, but I haven't noticed disabled persons as a target. They made sure to put a Barbie in a wheelchair right into the middle of the greatest dance scene, dancing in formation with everyone else.

Roland Weber

2024-04-15 17:07:19 +0000 UTC

Chapo Trap House's series Hell On Earth is a great runthrough of the 30 years war, and features a lot of Luther fun facts. They also draw parallels to current day posters and consipiracy theories. I've never really listened to the parent podcast, not really my jam. But this series is, imo, well worth the patreon paywall. You can listen to the first episode for free I believe.

Matt

2024-04-15 12:48:30 +0000 UTC

Actually I want to add a coda to this. The culture war question around the legacy of religion on modern western thought is not so much around accepting the enduring influence of Christianity, as much as denying any role to Islamic thought. This is really what Dawkins, Harris and co are at with their New Atheist valorisation of "judeo-christian culture". The interaction with the Umayyad Caliphate of Cordoba (aka Spain) was key to the renaissance of the 12th century, from which both the Averroist movement (of which Aquinas was the moderate wing) and their Nominalist opponents sprang. Recall that one of the big bones of contention (see for e.g. WP on the Condemnations of 1210 to 1270) between the two factions was over the possibility of a vacuum existing. This was part of the Averroist insistance on the truth of the Almagest (Ptolomeic cosmology) that the earth could not be in motion, because it would leave behind a vacuum and where it would have to move to must also be empty - i.e. for the earth to move, it had to be moving through a "space" that was a vacuum. By contrast, the Nominalists said that this was an unacceptable limitation on God's omnipotence. That if God felt like it, he could create a vacuum if he wanted one - the divine will wasn't limited by the "natural laws" of his own creation. This hyper-theistic insistence on divine omnipotence is the same critique of Averroist cosmology that Islamic jurists made. There's a kind of "salafist-avant-la-lettre" quality to the arguments of Scotus and Ockham against the Averroists. Anyway, long story short, its not just the numbers, the maths, the astronomy, etc, any account of western thought that emphasises the legacy of Christian thinking without at the same time including its interaction with Islamic thought, has a definite cultural and ideological agenda.

Paul Bowman

2024-04-15 12:05:03 +0000 UTC

I don't think he is anti-consumerism, in fact I'm pretty sure I've heard him say he loves that part of capitalism. Yeah there are definitely things that would be bad. Lunch boxes, don't care. Gambling website, big no-no, same with crypto (inherently exploitative). The fleet of luxury cars is the most debatable... obnoxious display of wealth, sure... but I don't care about optics as much as I care about substance... but then Hasan's substance as a leftist populariser is all about optics, so it would undermine his usefulness. The way I see things with Hasan is he is a popular face for left wing politics amongst young people, and the US desperately needs a push in the left direction. He is problematic with some of the things he says, but do I think that his words will cause a surge in popularity for Houthis and destroying the two towers? No. Given the lack of leftist voices in positions of power and influence, whether it be government, major news programs, or newspapers, I'll take what I can get even if he is a dumbass.

David Noble

2024-04-15 11:22:54 +0000 UTC

This would make a great fanfic short story!

Emma

2024-04-15 11:22:53 +0000 UTC

I also did one of his online courses recently about Jesus and Paul where he argues that even Jesus and Paul were not singing from the same song sheet! Basically Jesus just thought he was a Jewish prophet putting his own spin on the Jewish law, as other prophets had done before him. It was Paul (according to Bart) who invented the new religion of Christianity which uses Jesus as its central figure, BUT does not actually follow Jesus's own teachings. https://ehrman.thrivecart.com/paul/?_gl=1r4hlzr_gaNDAzMTg5MDY4LjE3MTMxNzY5NTg._ga_B0N531XLWQ*MTcxMzE3ODkzOS4yLjAuMTcxMzE3ODk0OS4wLjAuMA..

Emma

2024-04-15 11:08:03 +0000 UTC

I love these new supplement episodes! For those interested in early Christian history I highly recommend the work of historian Bart Ehrman who has written lots of good books and nowdays of course has his own podcast https://www.bartehrman.com/podcast/. I was raised in a very fundamentalist Christian home so we never learnt anything about early Christian history. Perhaps cause it's too much like looking inside the sausage factory! Bart wrote a great book about the various early Christian sects and he argued that they were so dissimilar they were basically different religions. Which is why he called his book 'Lost Christianities' in plural https://www.amazon.com.au/Lost-Christianities-Battles-Scripture-Faiths/dp/0195182499/ref=asc_df_0195182499/?tag=googleshopmob-22&linkCode=df0&hvadid=384097092171&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=11428981135249991696&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9071337&hvtargid=pla-452072221678&psc=1&mcid=6b59c9965b8e3f17896b1673aa7262d7 .

Emma

2024-04-15 11:00:41 +0000 UTC

Echo other comments in enjoying the new gazetteer format. Quick word of support for Matt's contention that Luther & cos theological disputations have a definitely modern format - despite Chris ofc being right about it still being religious in content and framework. A rabbit hole I feel down thanks to Liam Bright's piece on "Why I am not a liberal", I realised that my received ideas of Thomist Aristotelianism being the dominant scholastic outlook until Descartes upset the apple cart, was basically untrue. Thomism really only becomes official Catholic church dogma retrospectively during the Counter-reformation. The dominant scholastic tendency within the universities from the 13th century to the Reformation was actually nominalism, including Ockhamism (he of the eponymous razor). And in that light, both Descartes and the other rationalists (Gassendi, Spinoza, etc) and the theology of Luther and Calvin are linked by a continuity with a general trend of proto-modernist thinking of the time. So, yes, I agree with Matt, there is an element of moderism in how Luther, Melancthon, Zwingli and Calvin are forming theological arguments and the contemporary Cartesian "package" at the heart of the scientific revolution. You have the rationalists faith that reality must be internally consistent, free from self-contradictions, universal in applicability and above all, systemic. Which is a different epistemic outlook that other, more revelatory of mystical traditions - whether Mormonism, Chasidism, etc

Paul Bowman

2024-04-15 10:50:26 +0000 UTC

This ties back to Harris's apparent view that grokking "the illusion of the self" is somehow going to make you a better person and meditation will cure you of culture war brain. The mechanism of how and why this could be the case is always vague to non-existent

Paul Bowman

2024-04-15 10:31:29 +0000 UTC

I really enjoyed this one.

lun

2024-04-15 09:50:23 +0000 UTC

Love your work

Jason

2024-04-15 08:29:03 +0000 UTC

Okay, I don’t live in the academic space and assume the banter is a bit tongue in cheek- keep up the good work

Jason

2024-04-15 08:26:05 +0000 UTC

I’m disparaging of associate professors?

Christopher Kavanagh

2024-04-15 08:24:07 +0000 UTC

Loved the Ideologie spoof- getting a little tired of Chris being disparaging about only being an associate professor- basically a full professor is something who knows nothing about a lot of other stuff- get over it

Jason

2024-04-15 08:14:52 +0000 UTC

hm i wonder if that view has anything to do with the fact that dr K is pro arranged marriage and anti-divorce

aneladgam_varelse

2024-04-15 07:03:10 +0000 UTC

Why didn't you like it? I didn't see it because a disability advocate I follow suggested it seemed to be making fun of disabled people.

Emma

2024-04-15 07:00:05 +0000 UTC

Good documentary! Clips are representative for dr K’s style. I was shocked when dr K told Reckful about healing qualities of relationship and promised such healing relationship with himself. It’s not possible to form secure attachment with streamer. Also I feel like encouraging people to search for relationship in order to be healed is bad advice, because they can end up looking for caregiver instead of partner.

aneladgam_varelse

2024-04-15 06:43:37 +0000 UTC

You can earn as much as you like, but if you rail against consumerism and wealth disparities while building up a huge fortune as a millionaire influencer, living in a mansion, buying luxury goods and creating 'edgy' consumer products... I feel like your principles are rather superficial. Alternatively, if your stance is simply that you are a fan of social welfare systems and don't have any issue with profiting or consumerist culture, then more power to you. I don't think that is how Hasan positions himself... Eat the Rich and all that. My counter question would be is there any level of wealth at which you feel he might start looking hypocritical? Would selling Hasan themed lunch boxes, endorsing a gambling website, releasing a cryptocurrency, or buying a fleet of luxury cars be of any issue?

Christopher Kavanagh

2024-04-15 05:14:43 +0000 UTC

What a nauseating shit that Doctor K is. I’d rather listen to Red Scare on repeat than an episode of his passive aggressive bleating. Actually, that’s probably not true. My gratitude that you do the listening for us knows no bounds. I look forward to the Doctor K decoding, even though I know he’s going to be awful to learn about.

Aaron Holder

2024-04-15 05:05:44 +0000 UTC

I was interested to hear you're planning to cover Dr K. Before doing so, you really need to watch this documentary about him made by (now-banned) YouTuber MrGirl, which has been re-uploaded to YouTube by a third party and can now be found here: youtu.be/tSMNGZ1dHUQ It includes interviews with doctors, psychiatrists, and psychologists, and lays out in meticulous detail how Dr K blurs the line between official therapy and what he does, and doesn't seem to care if his "patients" get the wrong impression (and why that's such a big deal). At one point, for instance, the massively popular streamer Pokimane says "my therapist is Dr K". It shows how Reckful in particular (the streamer who ended up killing himself) wasn't clear on this distinction, and was calling their interactions "therapy" after a few sessions. Dr K even says multiple times how he was advised by lawyers not to start streaming his "therapy" sessions because he could end up getting sued, especially if one of the people he talks to ends up killing themselves (!). The documentary even makes the case that Dr K might have contributed to Reckful's suicide, and shows how he's generally very willing to push boundaries and dig into topics that the other person clearly isn't comfortable talking about, for the sake of views and heightened drama. It also details how after Reckful killed himself, Dr K contacted Reckful's friends and family and told them to leave Dr K's name out of the account of Reckful's final days, possibly indicating he knew he'd been overstepping his professional boundaries and could get sued. For those who don't have an hour to spare, the first half of the documentary is kind of building up to what happens at around the 34 minute mark. It's well worth watching from that point onwards.

Daz

2024-04-15 02:17:52 +0000 UTC

I read a great book back in around 2010 called A History of Christianity: The First Three Thousand Years, by Diarmaid MacCulloch, about the ways in which Christianity shaped much of the world. It begins with the Greek and Jewish forerunners (hence the 3,000 years), and has really fascinating chapters on the Reformation, and on Orthodox religion. It was interesting to see the origins of the word "iconoclasm" which is where Orthodox Christiniaty destroyed their icons in response to losses to Islamic forces, essentially suspecting that perhaps God was angry with icons and therefore favouring the religion that forbade them. I think it also delves into how much, as you mentioned Holland's book does, ideas of individualism, liberty, the abolition of slavery, and even egalitarianism were based off reinterpretations of the Bible after they were translated into local languages and undermining the Catholic Church's centuries of self-serving doctrines. From what I remember, atheism was not so much a branching off of protestantism, but rather an accusation against anyone who dared waver from official dogma. I think the book was also made into a relatively short series which is impressive in itself given that the book is over 1,000 pages.

Robert Andrews

2024-04-15 00:14:15 +0000 UTC

That seems fairly reasonable. Although in the case of Hasan I wonder how much of his disconnect is due to wealth and how much is due to him streaming 24/7.

David Noble

2024-04-14 22:45:29 +0000 UTC

I never liked Dr K, but that was tough to listen to. Seems like a good candidate for decoding

Shark McCarthy

2024-04-14 22:40:31 +0000 UTC

Amount of wealth that doesn’t make people disconnect from reality of avarage person. Not that every socialist must be poor and live without safety any safety net coming with wealth, but they should have common things with regular people. Socialists should strive for economic equality in society measured by Gini coefficient.

aneladgam_varelse

2024-04-14 22:04:12 +0000 UTC

Normal protestants (hehe) in the US (Lutheran, Episcopal, Presbyterian (mostly)) frown on charismatic pastors - maybe that's a remnant of Northern European/Scandi protestantism and/or puritanism? American evangelicalism seems to be driven almost exclusively by charismatic personalities and is more popular in the South & Mid-west among the Scot-Irish and less so among the Scandi/Germans & WASPs in the upper Mid-west and New England. All bets are off on the West Coast - lots of nuts out there. ;-)

S Garvey

2024-04-14 21:59:17 +0000 UTC

Lutherans have been trying something like that. We are the original evangelicals and are notoriously progressive. Yet we're dying, in Western Europe and North America. I think the reasons for the decline of the churches in the west are a complex mix of the social, cultural, and political. (A long history of being co-opted by the ruling class hasn't helped.)

Sonje Finnestad

2024-04-14 21:02:54 +0000 UTC

It astonishes me that anyone thought it was a feminist movie. (I know they did, though!)

Sonje Finnestad

2024-04-14 20:56:30 +0000 UTC

Yes, that is what I understood you to be saying. I'm not so sure about the podcast you were discussing though! (To be fair, I haven't listened to the whole thing.)

Sonje Finnestad

2024-04-14 20:55:20 +0000 UTC

@Jonathan Crymes Without a doubt.

Sonje Finnestad

2024-04-14 20:52:06 +0000 UTC

Reform was part of the zeitgeist. I think that's well-known amongst 'people who know about these things', though popular culture is, as ever, another matter. His statements about the Jews were truly appalling and the (cynical) use the Nazis made of them was even more appalling.

Sonje Finnestad

2024-04-14 20:50:52 +0000 UTC

As Matt and Chris mentioned, the printing press really gave Luther a boost.

Linda Sears

2024-04-14 20:28:48 +0000 UTC

On the issue of Hasan Piker making money, I suppose my position would be a little bit of the "I am very clever" man in the well, but also I guess I would want to ask: What amount of money would you feel is appropriate for someone with a socialist ideology? There are a whole spectrum of positions to take from a fully Communist to fully Capitalist society. I'd suggest that maybe there are political positions that have socialist and capitalist aspects and it seems Piker is one of those, and that him making millions does not undermine any push for a more socialist society.

David Noble

2024-04-14 19:37:26 +0000 UTC

Early Christianity is quite interesting because people were interpreting the texts in many different ways and multiple gospels that later got chucked out were being used. In some respects, Luther and others like him were recreating that earlier time, but certain ideas, like women not being allowed into positions of power, were already entrenched.

Linda Sears

2024-04-14 19:18:15 +0000 UTC

Dante and Chaucer did write in their native languages, but most people were illiterate pre-printing press, so you are probably right. Their audiences were much smaller.

Linda Sears

2024-04-14 19:14:17 +0000 UTC

I guess Dante and Chaucer didn't write for a popular audience at their time, but rather for a small elite.

Roland Weber

2024-04-14 18:50:34 +0000 UTC

Pre-Constantine Christianity varied quite a bit as there was no central authority to demand conformity. There are examples of radical egalitarianism, traditional hierarchy. I once read an account of a rich guy who talked about how he had two slave women that were bishops in their church community that he tortured to death to see what they believed. Horrible, but interesting that slave women were accepted as bishops by at least some church communities.

Jonathan Crymes

2024-04-14 18:44:13 +0000 UTC

These supplementals are a genius move….way more digestible and free flowing detached from the body of a decoding which is its own thing. I think you’re doing the Lord’s work with highlighting Lex Fridman’s bullshit which will easily go under the radar as on the surface compared to the other ex IDW types or Musk he clearly presents differently to normies- but he’s just a quietly spoken Rogan wannabe with identical in -group biases and again equally worrying as he’ll suck in another different group to that orbit and glad someone’s calling him out… and Jordan Luther Peterson has quite the ring to it.

Brainbiter

2024-04-14 18:28:08 +0000 UTC

It’s so interesting to me that Luther gets so much credit for criticizing the Catholic Church when others had been doing so long before him. Dante put a pope in his Inferno (1321) for selling indulgences, and Chaucer satirized a character, called The Pardoner, for doing the same in his Canterbury Tales (ca. 1387). My theory about Luther, based on things I’ve read about him, is that he had an abusive father, never felt good enough for God, which is why he kept going to confession as a monk, and felt great relief with his solo fide view because he could replace the punishing god in his mind with a loving one. Unfortunately, once he came to his interpretations, he was emboldened by his certainty. His feelings towards the Jews, who he thought would convert when he showed them “the truth,” were awful. He is a multifaceted character.

Linda Sears

2024-04-14 17:31:51 +0000 UTC

Sounds like a fascinating work. The Roman Catholic Church did appear to follow the same hierarchical structure of the Roman state, but this may be because hierarchical structures tend to be similar. Nonetheless, early Christian architecture in the west was based on Roman architecture.

Linda Sears

2024-04-14 16:13:22 +0000 UTC

This episode touched on a favourite bug-bear of mine: An unstated major premise which has plagued philosophy and religion for centuries is the assumption that if someone has some how acquired true and valid knowledge, or even gnosis, about reality that this will somehow have an impact on their, or anyone else's, emotional regulation, inter personal skills, or habits. History and individual practise have shown over, and over again that simply having a narrative or even an understanding, no matter how beautiful or coherent, about reality does not necessarily make one a 'better' person. For example, I'm sure Brian Cox is a nice chap, but I don't think he is because he got a physics degree.

Ymirsdreams

2024-04-14 15:21:16 +0000 UTC

While we're discussing the Barbie movie, I have to mention my current pet peeve: "Poor Things" is kind of the opposite of Barbie, in a flip-side-of-the-coin fashion. 😁

Roland Weber

2024-04-14 14:56:19 +0000 UTC

I added the link to my post: https://sz.de/1.6060192

Roland Weber

2024-04-14 14:42:05 +0000 UTC

On the bit about Christianity and Europe at the end. I recently read a book called “Christendom: the Triumph of a Religion” by Peter Heather. One of the central themes of the book is that elite Roman cultural values changed Christianity far more than Christianity changed Rome. Essentially, Christianity was an urban religion practiced by fairly small, radical communities. Once Constantine the Great announced that he was a Christian, the centralized structure of the imperial court created an organic pressure among Roman elites to convert. But those elites put a Christian pastiche on their existing norms and culture rather than allowing themselves to be fundamentally transformed by the ideas of early Christians. And so the Christianity that emerges within a few generation of Constantine is very different than the what it was before.

Jonathan Crymes

2024-04-14 14:24:50 +0000 UTC

Barbie’s origins as sex doll: https://www.andreaschewedesign.com/blog/barbies-origins

Linda Sears

2024-04-14 14:20:16 +0000 UTC

I saw the Barbie movie by accident (the movie I wanted to see was at a later date, and my husband wanted to see it, so I gave in). I liked some of the messages, for example, that neither men nor women should depend upon the other to validate them, but I was never a Barbie kid. I just couldn’t relate to her because I was a tomboy who preferred stuffed animals. Honestly, I think I thought her feet were nice to chew on. And I agree that knowing the movie was backed by a toy company makes it far less appealing. I did like the inclusion of a trans woman Barbie.

Linda Sears

2024-04-14 13:08:34 +0000 UTC

Reverend Jim Jones was quite progressive at his time because he allowed people of all races to his church during a time when that was not done. Many of his followers were black people who felt embraced by his gospel and idealistic whites who wanted racial equality. Knowing this makes the tragedy at Guyana even more terrible. He lured them down there with the promise of a Utopian world.

Linda Sears

2024-04-14 13:02:31 +0000 UTC

I think the guru who figures out how to be both evangelical and progressive will win. ;-0. at least in the USA. Hulu is streaming a documentary about an evangelical church called Hillsong (originally from Australia). They located a church in NYC that became wildly popular because the charismatic pastor never did the fire and brim stone thing - didn't promote conservative morality, was accepting of LBGTQ+, was multi-cultural. The music director was a married gay man. the church was over capacity on Sundays and had wait lists for attendance. It collapsed eventually (the usual reason - sexual indiscretion).

S Garvey

2024-04-14 12:48:36 +0000 UTC

I’d like to read

aneladgam_varelse

2024-04-14 12:27:43 +0000 UTC

Every time you guys talk about Lex I think of this song: https://youtu.be/KzUKcXxbU4U?si=Yuz27AQplowMXjEG

Christy Kilgore

2024-04-14 12:22:17 +0000 UTC

Back when the Barbie movie was launched, I read a newspaper article (in German and probably behind a paywall, but I can look it up if someone cares) that pointed out how the main storyline was not feminist at all. Personally, I find the movie hilariously funny. I'm literally laughing tears when I watch it, usually even before the Kens launch into their dream ballet :-) And it does give some air time to female viewpoints at least, imho. Edit: here's the link to the article... https://sz.de/1.6060192

Roland Weber

2024-04-14 12:14:01 +0000 UTC

From a moral and human standpoint for sure. From a realpolitik point of view, less clear-cut. Oh, and china isn't quite as dumb as lex 😉

Chomagerider

2024-04-14 11:53:50 +0000 UTC

Lex reminds me of China in regards to the Russia-Ukraine war; claim to be neutral but if you look at what they actually do it is clear they have chosen a side. The wrong side in my view.

Tim Tripp

2024-04-14 11:36:36 +0000 UTC

Immunity! I’ll put the audio version up shorty

Christopher Kavanagh

2024-04-14 10:23:05 +0000 UTC

The Hosts' are showing their bias towards the Catholic establishment. If only they could be more impartial (like Lex).

Quietscheentchen

2024-04-14 09:40:36 +0000 UTC

Hosts, what was the book you read prior to Dominion? Also that callback of the Dr. K thing Chris did to Matt at the end was hilarious

Barrett

2024-04-14 08:26:58 +0000 UTC

we need Epic Rap Battle between Martin Luther and Jordan Peterson

aneladgam_varelse

2024-04-14 07:16:44 +0000 UTC

We definitely wanted to mention that there are some very strong caveats with any parallels drawn!

Guruspod 2

2024-04-14 06:07:23 +0000 UTC

Eek!

Guruspod 2

2024-04-14 06:06:01 +0000 UTC

Lex continues to prove how pathologically naive he is... Maybe also how much he shuts down his critical thinking to legitimate criticism. Probably calls Rogan or Elon when he gets overwhelmed by it all, then writes one of his love fueled cop outs.

Lys

2024-04-14 04:21:02 +0000 UTC

“Just the right type of stupid” - hilariously apt

Jarod S

2024-04-14 04:16:58 +0000 UTC

From now on Peterson is Pretty Nightingale to me.

JP

2024-04-14 03:43:35 +0000 UTC

If Martin Luther encountered Jordan Peterson in a time-warp, I’d bet he’d have redirected this remark of his to the piker Peterson: “Thou can eat all the meat you want but Thou shalt not write a book unless you have listened to the fart of an old sow, to which you should open your mouth wide and say ‘Thanks to you, pretty nightingale, do I hear a text which is for me?’” All but the comment about meat eating from his “Table-Talk,” a very instructive and absorbing text, indeed. I say that and I’m an atheist absolutist.

JP

2024-04-14 03:42:26 +0000 UTC

The whole anti capitalism capitalist business reminds me of one of my current biggest pet peeves. I cannot deal w how many women have bought into the idea that the Barbie movie, a movie approved by Mattel and used by them to launch a new line of plastic dolls, is some sort of feminist masterpiece! It kills me! I'm fully expecting the next step will be a touching drama about the life and times of Philip Morris. And at some point Philip will say how it really hurts his feelings when people say he causes lung cancer when really he's also had loved ones die of cancer and it made him sad! And then they'll launch a new line of woke cigarettes and everyone will herald them for raising awareness about cancer, or some such crap.

Emma

2024-04-14 03:07:26 +0000 UTC

Depends what you mean by "sanctioned". They could be, but then they also could NOT be. The fact that it's even plausible is stunning.

James P.

2024-04-14 01:13:53 +0000 UTC

Clearly Lex is the Kwisatz Haderach, and he knows who he must block on twitter to maximize the amount of love in the world in the far distant future. His Golden Path is to install Trump as president for the next 2000 years so that humanity will finally realize that all we need to do is love each other and thus will manifest the final libertarian utopia.

Jenson

2024-04-14 01:09:56 +0000 UTC

The Mean One and The Nice One 🫠 Are these official DTG sanctioned nicknames? 😂

Anna J

2024-04-14 01:06:28 +0000 UTC

Really enjoyed this week's episode of The Mean one vs. Words, where we were offered a scintillating history lesson on midevil monk, Dr. Martin Luther King. Even The Nice One got the heebie jeebies from a Ayurvedic chauvinist streamer, strongly recommend, folks!

James P.

2024-04-14 01:03:42 +0000 UTC

Excellent Supplementary boys!!🧒

Julie

2024-04-14 00:23:30 +0000 UTC

The host of 'no girls on the internet' discovered she was blocked by Lex. She has never mentioned him on twitter and she had no idea how he even knew about her. Maybe he's just pre-emptively blocking all leftish podcasters in case they might mention him in the future???

Emma

2024-04-14 00:22:06 +0000 UTC

Plausible theory, especially taken to account how Hasan simps for China and their socialism

aneladgam_varelse

2024-04-13 23:53:06 +0000 UTC

In a bout of my dislike for Hasan, I tried to figure out how true the claims about merch being union-made or made in America are. I find it curious that the part-owner of his merch company, is a influencer-merch provider/white label manufactorer, with a factory in China. I could find no mention about who actually produces the merch on the website. My small tinfoilhat conspiracy is that he might be decieving about the place of origin of the merch.

Mert

2024-04-13 23:46:33 +0000 UTC

Sadly, that is not the case. She is a narcissist who has three ex-husbands and three estranged children (one from each marriage). We just hope she is a better therapist with strangers than she is with those close to her.

Linda Sears

2024-04-13 23:24:14 +0000 UTC

Let’s hope she either learned her lesson during training/her own therapy or is using that techniques for good purposes in professional setting

aneladgam_varelse

2024-04-13 22:53:04 +0000 UTC

btw dr K is addiction psychiatrist, so you can find content for Matt

aneladgam_varelse

2024-04-13 22:44:25 +0000 UTC

The Dr. K clip with his wife was quite disturbing. My husband’s ex-wife used a good deal of therapy speak to undermine and manipulate him. She is now a licensed marriage and family therapist. 🥺😢

Linda Sears

2024-04-13 22:42:07 +0000 UTC

I think dr K in his convo with dr K used a shittone of therapy language to manipulate dr Mike into endorsing Ayurveda on stream

aneladgam_varelse

2024-04-13 22:41:59 +0000 UTC

Indeed, the foundation for Luther was his doctrine of grace (or, you might say, God's love), rather than his objections to indulgences. And yes, he was something of a master of scatological invective. He certainly had his flaws but, as you anticipated, I take vigorous exception to the notion that he is like Jordan Peterson! It is certainly interesting to see him as something of a guru, the twitter-pamphlet parallel is apt as well as amusing ("shit-posting"!), and I enjoyed the discussion of orthodoxy and orthopraxy. I'll probably say more later — I am a Lutheran pastor and should not be taking time from my sermon to listen to DTG on Saturday afternoon! Thank you for the apology to Lutherans, by the way :-)

Sonje Finnestad

2024-04-13 22:32:53 +0000 UTC

Hahaha. My wife would have told me to fuck right off if I said that to her in a stream (not that I stream) but let's say rather, in public. And she'd have been on the money. That's why I love her.

Kyle

2024-04-13 22:30:06 +0000 UTC

Supplementary Material 4: Passive Aggressive Therapists, Shit-posting Monks, and Weaponised Naivety

Comments

That was extremely uncomfortable to listen to. It really triggered a feeling in me that I haven’t felt or thought about for a long long time. That dude is dangerous.

40!! jezaz i thought he was just a bairn🤣

Definitely!

And pretending he was being a really healthy communicator by doing that on stream.

That Dr. K creepiness recalled Stefan Molyneux's bizarre 'Real Time Relationships'.

Im worried for Dr Ks wife. That was such classic controlling behaviour. Hate to think what he's like in private.

When you are interviewing someone you shouldn't be representing their views. They are there to represent their own views. The interviewer should be challenging those views to fully explore their guests viewpoint.

Maybe it's your face 😂

my probably tinfoil hat theory is that as a SV guy he's well aware how game and network theories work on the internet. He's algorithmically optimizing. ;-)

public therapy or struggle session?

I shall give that a shot! Thanks for the recommendation :)

Ah nice, I saw that but didn't check it out yet. Yeah, I like similar podcasts like QAA, I think I just haven't gelled w it or grokked the format of it yet.

I do like Chapo, but I get that it's not gonna be to everyone's taste. That said, you're absolutely right that Hell on Earth is worth a month's subscription to their Patreon. Hell of Presidents is also an equally impressive effort from them.

Barbie makes fun of a lot of things, but I haven't noticed disabled persons as a target. They made sure to put a Barbie in a wheelchair right into the middle of the greatest dance scene, dancing in formation with everyone else.

This would make a great fanfic short story!

This ties back to Harris's apparent view that grokking "the illusion of the self" is somehow going to make you a better person and meditation will cure you of culture war brain. The mechanism of how and why this could be the case is always vague to non-existent

I really enjoyed this one.

Love your work

Okay, I don’t live in the academic space and assume the banter is a bit tongue in cheek- keep up the good work

I’m disparaging of associate professors?

Loved the Ideologie spoof- getting a little tired of Chris being disparaging about only being an associate professor- basically a full professor is something who knows nothing about a lot of other stuff- get over it

hm i wonder if that view has anything to do with the fact that dr K is pro arranged marriage and anti-divorce

Why didn't you like it? I didn't see it because a disability advocate I follow suggested it seemed to be making fun of disabled people.

That seems fairly reasonable. Although in the case of Hasan I wonder how much of his disconnect is due to wealth and how much is due to him streaming 24/7.

I never liked Dr K, but that was tough to listen to. Seems like a good candidate for decoding

It astonishes me that anyone thought it was a feminist movie. (I know they did, though!)

Yes, that is what I understood you to be saying. I'm not so sure about the podcast you were discussing though! (To be fair, I haven't listened to the whole thing.)

@Jonathan Crymes Without a doubt.

Reform was part of the zeitgeist. I think that's well-known amongst 'people who know about these things', though popular culture is, as ever, another matter. His statements about the Jews were truly appalling and the (cynical) use the Nazis made of them was even more appalling.

As Matt and Chris mentioned, the printing press really gave Luther a boost.

Dante and Chaucer did write in their native languages, but most people were illiterate pre-printing press, so you are probably right. Their audiences were much smaller.

I guess Dante and Chaucer didn't write for a popular audience at their time, but rather for a small elite.

Sounds like a fascinating work. The Roman Catholic Church did appear to follow the same hierarchical structure of the Roman state, but this may be because hierarchical structures tend to be similar. Nonetheless, early Christian architecture in the west was based on Roman architecture.

While we're discussing the Barbie movie, I have to mention my current pet peeve: "Poor Things" is kind of the opposite of Barbie, in a flip-side-of-the-coin fashion. 😁

I added the link to my post: https://sz.de/1.6060192

Barbie’s origins as sex doll: https://www.andreaschewedesign.com/blog/barbies-origins

I’d like to read

Every time you guys talk about Lex I think of this song: https://youtu.be/KzUKcXxbU4U?si=Yuz27AQplowMXjEG

From a moral and human standpoint for sure. From a realpolitik point of view, less clear-cut. Oh, and china isn't quite as dumb as lex 😉

Lex reminds me of China in regards to the Russia-Ukraine war; claim to be neutral but if you look at what they actually do it is clear they have chosen a side. The wrong side in my view.

Immunity! I’ll put the audio version up shorty

The Hosts' are showing their bias towards the Catholic establishment. If only they could be more impartial (like Lex).

Hosts, what was the book you read prior to Dominion? Also that callback of the Dr. K thing Chris did to Matt at the end was hilarious

we need Epic Rap Battle between Martin Luther and Jordan Peterson

We definitely wanted to mention that there are some very strong caveats with any parallels drawn!

Eek!

Lex continues to prove how pathologically naive he is... Maybe also how much he shuts down his critical thinking to legitimate criticism. Probably calls Rogan or Elon when he gets overwhelmed by it all, then writes one of his love fueled cop outs.

“Just the right type of stupid” - hilariously apt

From now on Peterson is Pretty Nightingale to me.

Depends what you mean by "sanctioned". They could be, but then they also could NOT be. The fact that it's even plausible is stunning.

The Mean One and The Nice One 🫠 Are these official DTG sanctioned nicknames? 😂

Really enjoyed this week's episode of The Mean one vs. Words, where we were offered a scintillating history lesson on midevil monk, Dr. Martin Luther King. Even The Nice One got the heebie jeebies from a Ayurvedic chauvinist streamer, strongly recommend, folks!

Excellent Supplementary boys!!🧒

The host of 'no girls on the internet' discovered she was blocked by Lex. She has never mentioned him on twitter and she had no idea how he even knew about her. Maybe he's just pre-emptively blocking all leftish podcasters in case they might mention him in the future???

Plausible theory, especially taken to account how Hasan simps for China and their socialism

Sadly, that is not the case. She is a narcissist who has three ex-husbands and three estranged children (one from each marriage). We just hope she is a better therapist with strangers than she is with those close to her.

Let’s hope she either learned her lesson during training/her own therapy or is using that techniques for good purposes in professional setting

btw dr K is addiction psychiatrist, so you can find content for Matt

The Dr. K clip with his wife was quite disturbing. My husband’s ex-wife used a good deal of therapy speak to undermine and manipulate him. She is now a licensed marriage and family therapist. 🥺😢

I think dr K in his convo with dr K used a shittone of therapy language to manipulate dr Mike into endorsing Ayurveda on stream

Hahaha. My wife would have told me to fuck right off if I said that to her in a stream (not that I stream) but let's say rather, in public. And she'd have been on the money. That's why I love her.

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