Sam Harris: Debating the Lab Leak, Gaza, the Self and Extremism
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Comments
I’m shocked and horrified to hear the strident manner you continuously interrupted Sam! He could barely put a thought together and suddenly there goes Chris, rudely interrupting, again. And it wasn’t even to steelman Sam’s deep and sophisticated thoughts. The interruptions were self indulgent quips against a man explaining the very substance of nature. Okay okay I’m joking. Sam is insufferable
Par
2024-07-12 06:18:50 +0000 UTCThank you for the response Chris. Not much heavy lifting. That's a much better way to put it ;) Thanks :))
Peter Moon
2024-03-27 08:56:57 +0000 UTCI don't think the comparison holds. Sam expressed that *he thinks* ethnic cleansing, in the sense of forced migration, could be a viable strategy for the Gaza conflict but that no one was prepared to seriously consider it. I noted how extreme that statement was at the time and we talked in general about how his presentation of the conflict is skewed and fails to acknowledge the extremists on the Israeli side and the valid criticisms raised against the military campaign. But Sam holding those views is not the same as claiming a vaccine is a bioweapon. You cannot disprove that Sam thinks forced migration is reasonable... because he does. And you do not need to tell most reasonable people listening that is an extreme claim because it is obvious unless you already agree with Sam's take. In general, Sam is someone who likes to make extreme statements when it comes to politics. Last time he also unbidden talked about the Jewish people's role in enabling their persecution in the Holocaust, this time he talked about ethnic cleansing and the fall of London to stealth Islamists. He likes to say extreme things and argue that people reacting against them are not taking note of the caveats and logic he is applying. But again, I do not think you need to bring someone on to make that clear to people. The feedback we received from the episode clearly highlighted that people recognised the difference in our perspectives and the extremity of Sam's statements... his fans did not, but they are not going to be swayed in any case by some follow-up interview. Can I imagine that Sam, the person who suggested a pre-emptive nuclear strike against Islamists might be necessary and morally good, would argue for the utilitarian value of a forced migration of Palestinians? Yes. It is still surprising how directly he endorsed ethnic cleansing, but it is not particularly out of character. In any case, I'll have a conversation with Eiynah about the episode soon enough and I'm sure she will raise similar points so you might find that cathartic!
Christopher Kavanagh
2024-03-18 06:07:09 +0000 UTCTo put it another way, if Harris had instead claimed that vaccines were a bioweapon that killed more people than COVID, would you have been satisfied with your level of pushback? That's not a more insane or dangerous claim than endorsing ethnic cleansing in an active conflict. I know for vaccines you have a body of good work you could point people to for more information, but you don't have anything comparable for Gaza. It would certainly be a waste of time to bring in an expert to rebut every insane Weinstein claim, but there is a very clear trend of people you have covered embracing extremist positions in this conflict (generally encouraging the massacre of Palestinians along with a large dose of antisemitism), much like there was around lab-leak and the vaccine. I think it would be a mistake to not do at least a little more around the most extreme thing any guest has ever said on your podcast. Could you imagine when you first covered Sam Harris that he would say something like that to your face? There has been a shift in your subjects and it's going to keep coming up. I think you'd do well to tackle it directly.
David Moore
2024-03-18 05:53:31 +0000 UTCThere are important differences with the Huberman scenario. First, we have covered Sam critically many times, most recently in a 3-hour+ episode. So anyone in our audience who has listened to our content on Sam will know we do not agree with him on many things and that we do find him polemical and overly certain of his positions. So to hear him stake out polemical strident positions on Israel, should not be surprising. Second, I do not think it is accurate to say we offered little pushback, especially on the topic of Israel-Gaza. Sam spoke a lot but when we did manage to respond, we made our disagreements rather clear. Such an exchange is why Sam ended up endorsing ethnic cleansing as a viable solution. So in a comparable scenario, where Huberman had put out critical content on an anti-vaxxer, then had them on to respond & pushed back but the anti-vaxxer monologued and made some extreme claims, which Huberman disagreed with> I actually would not 'rip into him'. As far as Sam and the philosopher go respectfully I think you might have missed the point a little there. It was an example of Sam experiencing what he often dishes out. I do not think many reasonable people would take it as arguing that saying ethnic cleansing in Gaza is legitimate is a minor faux pas. Finally, counter to your point, we have commented on the conflict in Gaza/Palestine to the extent that we feel is warranted given our expertise and focus. The gurus say a lot of stuff and if we had to constantly bring on experts to balance their pronouncements we would be doing interviews every week. Destiny is an edge lord debate-bro, his argument in that section was focused on technical definitions of genocide, just like with Chomsky and Srebrenica. He was doing the same thing with apartheid and Jim Crow. He argued that dropping the nuclear bombs on Japan is typically not considered a 'genocide' even though it indisputably killed hundreds of thousands of innocent people and that the same thing could apply in Gaza. I think this is a stupid point because I think by almost all definitions that would be considered a genocidal act... but I think he is essentially making the same point as Chomsky. I also do not think that Destiny's comments in a Lex Fridman podcast debate will have ANY bearing on Israel's military actions.
Christopher Kavanagh
2024-03-18 03:27:26 +0000 UTCIf Huberman had an antivaxxer on and offered that level of pushback regarding vaccines, Chris would correctly rip into him. At the moment the longest discussion of Israel-Palestine on your podcast is a right-wing extremist promoting ethnic cleansing. I don't think you need to be experts on this, but given the number of gurus you've covered pouring out rabid anti-Semitism (Elon Musk) / Islamophobia (Sam Harris, Gad Saad) / light holocaust denial (Murray, Kisin) in this conflict, you can bring on a reasonable expert to discuss. The way you've currently handled it treats promoting ethnic cleansing as an awkward indiscretion. One week, you have Harris and that happens, a few weeks later we're all laughing about him having to put up with a long-winded philosopher. You aren't shy about skewering Hasan's terrible opinions, and presumably you're going to cover Destiny in the streamer season. Destiny recently stated in his "debate" against Finkelstein on Lex Fridman's podcast that "If Israel were to literally nuke the Gaza strip and kill 2 million people, I don't know if that would qualify as genocide." At a certain point avoiding the issue while so many of the people you cover are focused on it, starts becoming like Huberman and vaccines, except far darker as these people are inciting genocide.
David Moore
2024-03-16 21:17:22 +0000 UTCYes, Sam's thought experiments do not do the heavy lifting he seems to think they do. I also think he does not pay much attention to any academic research, as far as I can tell!
Christopher Kavanagh
2024-03-12 05:05:29 +0000 UTCHi Decoders, I would like to get your opinion about Harris' "thought experiment", the one with the magic wand, and peoples' real intentions, and what they would reveal.. This struck me as infantile. In my line of work we say "good intentions are not enough". Outcomes and impact is what matters. Does it matter that cocaine users in Amsterdam don't intend to contribute to violence in e.g. Colombia ? Or if they'd have a magic wand, that the Dutch would turn Colombia into South Korea ? If i'd have a magic wand, I would eliminate all the worlds animal suffering, while I regularly eat meat. My wife also thinks that my intentions don't really matter. But how I act..... Help out please ! Matt brought up a similar point, about Cambodia, but Harris wasn't interested. Another point is the polling-data that Harris keeps using. Does he know about psychometrics, reliability & validity of questions, and bias, especially regarding topics where virtue signalling is likely ? Also, I just finished listening to the latest Harris podcast, with Rory Stewart, on Islam. We could say it's courageous of Harris to broadcast that interview. My takeaway is that he self-imploded. The bias became so evident. He had so little to say. What is Harris actually an expert in?
Peter Moon
2024-03-01 09:23:27 +0000 UTCI don’t agree. Sam’s presentation of his views was rather obviously partisan and polemical and I think anyone listening can tell we do not agree with his claims, particularly around how reasonable an ethnic cleansing policy would be. I believe I even respond to Sam saying it’s not extreme by saying ‘But it is Sam’. There is no indication by us that Sam’s views on the conflict are moderate or endorsed by us. So there is no need to bring on an expert to rebut his analysis because it’s clearly just a polemical opinion. I also think very few people in our audience are going to have been dramatically swayed by Sam’s rhetoric, unless they already agreed with him. The feedback we’ve received on the episode demonstrates this.
Christopher Kavanagh
2024-02-28 00:48:32 +0000 UTCI took a few days after listening to this to collect my thoughts, but I think it was unreasonable to give Harris a platform to present such extreme bigotry with minimal push back. On the issue of Israel's invasion of Gaza Harris, is a right-wing extremist. You added an introduction mentioning you disagree with the claim that "London has fallen to jihadists," which is good because that is an insane take, but Harris also claimed that ethnically cleansing Gaza was a reasonable position if only Palestinians and other Arabs would agree to it. I don't think Harris is self aware enough to know, but he is literally recreating the anti-Jewish propaganda of the Nazis who also claimed that they were defending European civilization from the Judeo-Bolsheviks, that ethnically cleansing Europe was a preferred and humane solution if only the Allied powers would agree to take in expelled Jews, etc. It was two years into WWII that the Nazi program of ethnic cleansing developed under war conditions into extermination camps. Harris's claim that ethnic cleansing and genocide are completely different things puts him far closer than he'd like to admit to bog-standard holocaust deniers. It's no coincidence that Douglas Murray went viral after October 7, backed by several gurus like Konstantin Kisin, for his claim that Hamas were worse than the Nazis because the Nazis felt shame over the holocaust and tried to hide what they were doing. This was Nazi apologetics that denied the extremely public pogroms, mass shootings and brutality conducted particularly by the Waffen-SS. It's in this mess of neo-Nazi shit that Harris finds his cothinkers on Gaza. I know you've generally avoided Israel's invasion of Hamas, since you aren't experts and feel on such a serious topic it's best to not swing in with uninformed opinions. But now that you've brought it in with Harris I think you should also bring on an actual expert. I have no idea if he'd be up for it, but I'd recommend Elad Nehorai, who in addition to being an expert on antisemitism has specifically commented on how figures you've covered like Elon Musk have promoted the most extreme antisemitic conspiracy theories while praising Israel.
David Moore
2024-02-27 19:19:01 +0000 UTCIs Alabama a theocracy, given that their Supreme Court invoked the christian bible in their ruling that frozen embryos were "extrauterine children"?
Michael
2024-02-25 00:12:23 +0000 UTCI am little late to the part but good god that first part was painful. Just death by endless analogies that don't make his point any clearer. I love he easily he called all anthropologists delusional on the subject without any hint of irony. Also, I wish they would have had the chance to bring up Ayaan Hirsi Ali's recent "conversion" to Christianity. I don't understand how you can continue to lionize her after such a intellectually dishonest move
Saad Ahmed
2024-02-24 18:21:42 +0000 UTCI know I am way behind on this but I finally got a chance to listen to the interview. The first part was painful. It was death by unnecessary analogies. Also at the very end, I wish they would have had brough up Ayaan Hirsi Ali's recent "conversion" to Christianity. I don't know how you can continue to lionize her after such a dishonest move.
Saad Ahmed
2024-02-24 18:07:14 +0000 UTCErik Hoel too. I admired him so much after his interview with Sam I subscribed to his newsletter
Jamison Shipley
2024-02-24 15:35:37 +0000 UTCI guess it doesn't exactly fit with significance quest theory, considering people like Terence McSweeney and Sands had already established profiles prior to striking.
Brian Gough
2024-02-24 12:03:13 +0000 UTCYes but many more are far more willing to apply extra charitableness towards Harris and give him a pass on his support for racial profiling, torture, promotion and embrace of race-IQ science and numerous bigoted, extreme comments just because he opposes Trump, “gave in his IDW card” and speaks in a calm manner. After all, his lack of support of Trump is not based on policy grounds but optics.
SHOUNAK SARKAR
2024-02-23 07:06:12 +0000 UTCI didn't mind that too much!
Christopher Kavanagh
2024-02-22 05:17:45 +0000 UTCThe parallels with the conflict in Northern Ireland aren't exactly a neat fit, and there are unique differences, but I spat out my proverbial tea when Harris said — "The troubles would have been much more troublesome […] if you added a fanatical commitment to martyrdom" Yes, imagine if the IRA committed to starving themselves to death in an act of protest thus beatifying themselves on gable walls all over NI and beyond. @Chris, how did you let this one go!? : )
Brian Gough
2024-02-20 21:29:46 +0000 UTCOh I don’t think so. Actually if you wanted to reach Sam’s devoted fans you’d be better being polite because that’s something they fixate on. If you interrupted and spoke over Sam it would just be taken as evidence that he was right. As it stands I think sensible folk will respond sensibly and the others will respond as they always will.
Christopher Kavanagh
2024-02-20 15:27:31 +0000 UTCChris and Matt, your pushback won’t make any difference to the trajectory of these gurus. However, challenging a bit more might persuade some of the devoted guru fans to reconsider their firm convictions. Of course you don’t have to be impolite or rude but you also don’t let the other person ramble on and filetbuster. I think you did a fabulous job and struck the right balance with Kisin, Chris. But with Harris you two were a bit too deferential. To be fair, Matt did try to interject a few times but he’s too nice lol (which is great btw, just not when dealing with an arrogant douche like Harris). He just completely ignored it and kept going on his monologue.
SHOUNAK SARKAR
2024-02-20 14:16:17 +0000 UTCEzra was a guest on Sam's show. This is the key difference.
Christopher Kavanagh
2024-02-20 03:47:00 +0000 UTCThis makes me want to go back and listen to Sam’s debate with Ezra Klein from a few years ago. Ezra really knew how to deal with Sam’s windbaggery and didn’t allow him to talk over him.
Cynthia Savit
2024-02-20 03:20:04 +0000 UTCYeah. I like noting the temperment contrast between figures like Sam and, say, Milton Friedman. MF had strong views and advocated hard for them but stayed amiable, had a narrower focus, and was grounded in empirics. Was an academic long before being an activist. Wasn't just a pundit!
Alex H
2024-02-19 14:52:34 +0000 UTCMichael Huemer's piece on Israel-Palestine be of might interest to those who listened to this episode. FWIW I share the broad consensus here that Sam was not very thoughtful or convincing in this DtG interview. https://fakenous.substack.com/p/the-arab-israeli-conflict
Alex H
2024-02-19 14:42:13 +0000 UTCThe talk aboiut the self doesn't interest me but Sam's point about the ultimate goal of the two sides in the Israel/Palestine conflict is one that Hitchens made. The ultimate goal of the Palestinians is to eliminate israel. If you look at what kids are taught in school in Palestine it is perpetuating the extremism. I agree with Sam that it is not possible to reach a compromise under those conditions.
Mike M
2024-02-19 14:37:02 +0000 UTCLinda, thank you for sharing the example of the women of Iran. Those of us in Western democracies concerned about the erosion of secularism and human rights should remind ourselves of the courage of those whose lives are in danger and who have a much harder road ahead - and who stand up for their values anyway.
Artemis Green
2024-02-19 10:05:09 +0000 UTCAs fans of you all, that was a tough watch. Chris holds himself and others to a high standard that few are likely to meet, Sam appears to be less and less willing to concede on any points. Matt was handsome and has a lovely accent.
Scott Rowe
2024-02-19 08:28:49 +0000 UTCIf you think our pushback is going to make ANY difference on the trajectory of any of the people you've mentioned or their audiences, I think you are too idealistic.
Christopher Kavanagh
2024-02-19 03:32:31 +0000 UTCPretty cool, maybe pull back the focus a touch on the video subjects.
Scott Rowe
2024-02-18 12:14:25 +0000 UTCRest in Power to Micheal Brooks.
Floatgoat.
2024-02-18 05:24:40 +0000 UTCThat makes sense to me. When you are being the hosts, you feel that pressure to be hospitable. I think y’all did the best you could do in that situation. And, ultimately, we all can listen to what Sam said or didn’t say and make our judgements accordingly.
Linda Sears
2024-02-18 00:04:24 +0000 UTCI get your frustration, Michael, and often feel like we’re fighting a losing battle, especially since I’ve recently experienced (as in two weeks ago) several of my colleagues get axed at my college for spurious reasons. Yet I take heart that there are people in much, much worse places who are still trying. The young people of Iran, for example, who desperately want to have their rights respected and peacefully protest in creative ways give me courage to keep going.
Linda Sears
2024-02-17 23:54:11 +0000 UTCYeah, I know. I was just fucking with you. Not about to have a conversation that I don’t think would be in good faith. Wish you all the best though.
Floatgoat.
2024-02-17 22:44:21 +0000 UTCHe actually didn’t. We pushed back on Chris as much as we liked and he was pretty good with turn taking. Which points specifically do you think we did not address properly with Chris?
Christopher Kavanagh
2024-02-17 22:34:48 +0000 UTCI just don’t think that’s an accurate characterisation. I don’t think I’ve ever described myself as a ‘semi-fan’? I do, however, think some people are far too invested in Sam as a uniquely important evil. Amongst the gurus, he isn’t in the worst tier. That’s not a huge endorsement.
Christopher Kavanagh
2024-02-17 22:33:03 +0000 UTCRory and John were guests on Sam’s show… this is the difference you are looking for.
Christopher Kavanagh
2024-02-17 22:29:22 +0000 UTCI see. You think genocide is an appropriate response to killing innocent civilians. Arresting and torturing doctors, starving children to death & executing bound prisoners, mass looting & destruction & the rest. I frankly think that's an even more morally monstrous position than Harris's. That being said, Israel has broken most of the past ceasefires in spectacularly horrifying spectacles. Or this one, in 2018 when more left-wing Palestinians in Gaza staged peaceful protests along their side of the border, Israel put snipers on the hilltop outside. The snipers held contests as to who could more accurately hit the knees of the protesters. Around 230 were killed, 30,000 injured, some crippled for life, shot by the IDF for sport. In any case, if violating a ceasefire is reason to murder civilians, why doesn't the same logic apply to both sides?
Kat
2024-02-17 21:47:51 +0000 UTCI asked you first.
Michael
2024-02-17 21:12:28 +0000 UTCThe GOP has a supermajority in Texas. Abbott, Patrick, and Paxton are dishonest criminals. Democrats will never flip Texas. It is gerrymandered out the wazoo, public education is non-existent, anti-abortion laws deter potential liberal Texans from moving here, and if by some miracle Dems managed to break the supermajority, the GOP just wouldn’t allow it BECAUSE this is a theocracy not a democracy.
Michael
2024-02-17 21:10:51 +0000 UTCIf you’ve never heard it called God’s Own Party, you don’t follow American politics. You’d be laughed off Bill Maher for that comment.
Michael
2024-02-17 21:04:25 +0000 UTCI’m saying Jews are hypersensitive to pogroms and the rest of the world turning a blind eye. I’m not Jewish and I’m revolted by the indifference to Oct 7. There’s anti-semitic posters all day over UT Austin. There are 120 Muslims for every Jew on the planet. Extreme bias is by definition one-sided. I’m saying there was a cease fire and the Palestinians broke it in a spectacularly horrifying spectacle. They broke it, they bought it. They were fully aware of what Netanyahu’s response would be and they wanted it, to turn world opinion against the Jews. If it was up to me, people who showed support for the Oct 7 attacks would be fired from a cannon, directly into a brick wall 10 ft away, and I would give away tickets to watch. Look, I’m not a fan of Netanyahu. He’s a lying scumbag and a narcissist and he sounds like Gene Simmons. However, if you believe the Israelis were the instigators here, to me that is some questionable morality.
Michael
2024-02-17 20:55:19 +0000 UTCI certainly think introspective and meta-cognition practices can increase a sense of well being and even help some people manage certain issues. I'm delighted that meditation has proven so effective for you, and your practise has been so helpful.
Ymirsdreams
2024-02-17 20:49:32 +0000 UTCTrue Will, Self with a capital S, Holy guardian angel, and God are all the same. Whether it is God or a homunculus the path to get there is the same, through quieting of the mind. You’re listening for spiritual guidance - what difference does it make if you call it God or Holy Guardian Angel? I did not know the Sufis believe that everything one thinks or feels is fundamentally their own choice. But I believe that is true and that’s primarily why I meditate, to learn self control. I know that when my mind wanders to an obsessive resentment that I can stop doing that simply by dropping it. It will return, but I don’t take the bait. I learned that through sitting still even when I felt like getting up. It’s the same thing. I am making a choice to not indulge my craving. Sam has his standard meditation pitch and I’ve heard it enough. I didnt pay close attention to the debate and was eager that they move on. This is mystical shit and open to interpretation. I see more similarities than differences in these various traditions. Ultimately, meditation is about honing the mind, making it more receptive to information. For me, meditation is how one learns to experience the world in high resolution. I used to get mad at people, for whatever reason, and I’d think, “they did this to me. They made me feel this way.” No. One cannot control another’s feelings. If I have a conflict with someone, real or imagined, I am a willing participant. I can walk away without feeling like a coward. I can shamelessly plead for forgiveness, even if I believe I’ve done nothing wrong. That’s what Sam was getting at, I believe. Political conflicts very often arise out of misunderstanding and miscommunication. You watch your friend killed by your enemy. Now you want revenge. Maybe you take it out on the killer, maybe his brethren. But that is absolutely not going to bring your friend back. You will not got satisfaction from revenge and you have escalated the situation and can expect a reprisal. All because you let your emotions hijack your reasoning. Meditation addresses that problem.
Michael
2024-02-17 20:29:59 +0000 UTCHe gave lots of time to Rory Stewart and John Gray. Think he just doesn’t respect Matt and Chris and they were too deferential
Brainbiter
2024-02-17 19:35:35 +0000 UTCAnother Texan here (and I work in conservative Collin County). I was born in Texas, and I agree that things have gotten worse. I fear for any child bearing age woman who does not want to have a child. But we still have people we can vote for and support who are sane and care about our rights. To be honest, I am quite worried about Trump becoming president as well. The best we can do is vote and get others to join us, for example, getting Ted Cruz out of the senate is a positive goal to have.
Linda Sears
2024-02-17 19:00:10 +0000 UTCIf we want to prevent future pandemics, then it is very important that we know what caused Covid19. If it was a lab leak, then that needs to be investigated, and serious changes should be made. If it wasn’t, then we need to figure out what happened in those wet markets and try to pressure China to make changes as well. If the lab leak is turning into a conspiracy theory, then that is very concerning because it misleads people, adds to anti institutional narratives, and takes efforts away from what we should be focusing on. Either way, being correct about the most likely origins of Covid19 is essential for the health and safety of all of us.
Linda Sears
2024-02-17 18:51:58 +0000 UTCI think the right to reply format is difficult. Chris Williamson had free rein and little pushback as did Sam. Need more pushback if you plan to keep the format. Sam Harris’ Israel views are demented .
Brainbiter
2024-02-17 18:27:09 +0000 UTCI think your characterisation of Sam's take on meditation is very fair. What I was, very badly, trying to highlight is that Sam's (and Western mindfulness) a specific framing and priming of what is 'experienced' in mediation (impermanence). Crowley was mixed up with this interpretation, but for Crowley meditation was a means to assist in the tapping of the 'True Will', and develop mental staying power through 'one point' meditation. Crowley was interested in self knowledge, and that does overlap with modern 'mindfulness' styles, but Crowley very explicitly felt he was doing something more spiritually significant than seeing his emotions were temporary. If one undertakes Sufi meditation, for example, you are 'supposed' to learn that all the things one thinks and feels are fundamentally your own choice. If one undertakes Christian monastic meditation one is 'supposed' to learn that one's more ethical instincts and loving emotions do not come from oneself but come from 'outside' (God). Almost all traditions have meditative practises, and what one is intended to experience changes from tradition to tradition. It's a minor point, but Sam has asserted that his meditative insights are the grounding for his political opinions, and seems to imply that they would serve to help solve political conflicts. Like I wrote above he may be right, but it's a very specific take which he conflates with 'the truth', or 'being observably true', whereas the 'push back' would be that this 'observable truth' is actually a result of the framing he has undertaken meditation within.
Ymirsdreams
2024-02-17 18:26:59 +0000 UTCAnother sign of the DTG curse… Brand off on Rogan leaving the ‘left’ , Harris demented on details, Murray - say no more. Weinstein (s) . Carlson praising Putin week of Navalny death . It’s getting worse and not that funny anymore. Think harder pushback needed tbh
Brainbiter
2024-02-17 18:22:08 +0000 UTCSo are you claiming Sam's Jewishness makes him incapable of being a moral monster? Or Jews aren't capable of being moral monsters? As to extreme liberal bias, why is that bad? Regarding Hamas being elected & the right to self-determination, I'm not sure what your point is. Do you agree or disagree with Palestinians having the right to self-determination? Perhaps you could elaborate?
Kat
2024-02-17 17:17:07 +0000 UTCHow so?
Floatgoat.
2024-02-17 13:10:27 +0000 UTCThis is splitting hairs. I first learned how to meditate from an Aleister Crowley book. Later, I took a 10-day vipassana course. Much later, I began using Waking Up. If anything, Sam’s approach is the most generalized and the least strict. What I heard him saying was that if you meditate regularly you will recognize how emotional states are fleeting. If you perceive an insult, you may pause before reacting to it in a manner that creates a bad situation. That is not philosophy, that is cognitive fitness.
Michael
2024-02-17 12:42:47 +0000 UTCI was an experienced meditator long before I’d heard of Sam Harris. I didn’t find his argument constraining are limited. There’s a lot to be said about meditation that he didn’t address, but I found none of what he said objectionable. Meditation is like any exercise, first you learn a general pattern and then make it your own. Debating about its nuances with inexperienced meditators is a profound waste of time and energy.
Michael
2024-02-17 12:30:12 +0000 UTCYes, and I have neither the time or inclination to assess both sides of the lab leak theory. What caused it makes absolutely no difference to me and the debate sounded like a pissing contest.
Michael
2024-02-17 12:22:35 +0000 UTCYes, I heard it and Ezra Klein came off like an idiot.
Michael
2024-02-17 12:16:02 +0000 UTCFor someone that claims self awareness Sam Harris is unable to be aware of the fact that he never lets anyone finish a point and frequently shows his arrogance on many subjects that he seems not really to know a lot about. I find a lot of his sentences could be cut down by removing nonsensical word salads and I think he is morally bankrupt when it comes to the Palestine people. I appreciate how well you both did with the interview but fucking hell that was a hard listen for me.
Laura Reinger
2024-02-17 10:54:40 +0000 UTCEach to their own tastes mate, all good. I wasn’t having a go at you or anything like that. Was merely referencing your past comments that you are a semi-fan of his meditation stuff and your assertion that some people have a way more critical opinion of him than they should. Rest assured, i also am not coming from a hard-left progressive perspective. Just that he gets characterised as a moderate or even left wing (lol) when his rhetoric is far more extreme than many moderates I listen to. To be fair, Matt has also described Harris as “harmless” and scored him low on the ego score, when he’s anything but harmless and possesses a garangutan ego.
SHOUNAK SARKAR
2024-02-17 09:44:04 +0000 UTCI do?
Christopher Kavanagh
2024-02-17 09:05:26 +0000 UTCI heard that GOP stands for "Grand Old Party". But never mind, you can interpret it any way you want.
Roland Weber
2024-02-17 08:54:31 +0000 UTCApologies -- that last bit is a touch garbled: The type of meditation Sam advocates is a minority style in Buddhist culture as a whole. Sam seems to imply that the style he practises was the 'type' the Buddha (and other enlightened individuals) practised. This is a very specific take. Within Buddhism the 'type' of meditation the Buddha was practising at *the moment* of his 'awakening' is a hotly debated topic, still, leading to many rifts in the traditions. It might have been mindfulness, or 'stone body' (just refuse to move -- it doesn't matter what your mind does), or contemplative (he was thinking about meditation itself according to scripture), or breathing (scripture describes him sitting 'in the way he did', which might be the lotus, or it might imply certain yogic locks, or it might imply any number of things). Or he might have been a god, and would have awakened anyway and simply realised his true nature. It's a lovely idea that there is 'one truth' to spiritual traditions, and it would be a beautiful world were that true. The problem is, no one can get a majority agreement on what that might be. (But that doesn't mean Sam is 'wrong', just that it's a minority view atm.)
Ymirsdreams
2024-02-17 08:52:02 +0000 UTCLol 😂
SHOUNAK SARKAR
2024-02-17 08:49:01 +0000 UTCLol yep. Harris is the quintessential “hysterical and bigoted man speaking calmly”. Michael Brooks is way further to the left of me, but man oh man he described Harris to a T. That calm, supposedly rational voice hides a stunning lack of intellectual rigour, susceptibility to far-right talking points and an amazing hesitation to do any sort of research.
SHOUNAK SARKAR
2024-02-17 08:48:03 +0000 UTCYour concerns regarding extremism are totally justified, and it is a genuine issue. In this case I think the question is more along the lines of the implied claims Sam has made regarding how to address the phenomena and it's root causes. Regarding 'de-radicalisation' there are many successful projects which involve out reach practised all over the word. These projects tend to emphasise *more* education regarding the various religions rather than attempting to 'secularise' the radicalised subject -- as most radicalisation depends on one particular interpretation of a given set of texts. Sam also seems to imply that mindfulness is a key step or could play a key role in 'de-radicalisation'. Apologies for what might seem 'trite' examples (I honestly don't mean to strawman Sam), but it's not the case that most religious traditions do not have meditative / introspective practises. Judaism has Kabballah and most synagogues lead meditation sessions; Islam has Sufism and prayer and many modes of meditation intended to 'undermine' the 'self' and identify with Allah; Hinduism has many, many traditions; Christianity has thoughtful prayer practises and mystical traditions, etc. Sam's take on meditation is a highly specific one, focusing on just one type of mediation that isn't particularly widely practised in Buddhist communities. This doesn't mean it's *not* the 'secret sauce', but Sam's suggestion that it *is* is a highly personal claim on his part (at the moment). It has helped him, but that doesn't mean it has objective or extra-contextual validity.
Ymirsdreams
2024-02-17 08:39:17 +0000 UTCGOP stands for “God’s Own Party” and the GOP have a supermajority in Texas. That’s a theocracy. Making women carry to term when it may kill them is law derived from religious dogma and anti scientific. That is theocratic.
Michael
2024-02-17 08:20:00 +0000 UTCNot saying this didn’t happen, but The Intercept has a bad reputation for extreme liberal bias. Calling Sam a moral monster is over the top. He’s Jewish. Look, Hamas were elected. If you want to separate Hamas from Gaza, then you are saying Gaza has no right to self-determination. https://www.allsides.com/news-source/intercept
Michael
2024-02-17 08:15:43 +0000 UTCThe audio was bad enough but Harris’ smug arrogant expression to go with his bigotry is even more painful to watch on video format lol. No matter though, Im sure the DTG subreddit will be full of his fanboys defending every extreme comment and stating that DTG’s counterpoints were made in “bad faith” and “woke”, even though Chris and Matt bent over backwards to be fair to him in a way they wouldn’t for other gurus. After all, Chris you do consider yourself a semi-fan of him. But Im sorry to say that I find Harris to be a despicable cretin. Maybe because im non-white, his fawning embrace of Douglas Murray and western supremacist rhetoric caries a lot more valence. Some of his fans are reasonable but there are a lot more who have basically replaced religion and god with worshipping their atheist intellectual messiah.
SHOUNAK SARKAR
2024-02-17 08:14:59 +0000 UTCTexas is a theocracy. Austin is ultra liberal. I think you are confusing muslim and christian theocracies. Abortion being rolled back is one thing, abortion being denied even if that kills the mother is something else entirely. It is ghoulish. Vote for moderate candidates? That’s his solution? That’s like Sam Kinison telling starving Ethiopians to move where the food is, or telling fat people to stop eating. Is it true? Yes. Does it work? HELL NO. American politicians appeal to extremists, because that’s where the votes are. Freakonomics did an episode on this called “America’s Hidden Duopoly”. Frank Luntz is a Republican pollster who has made millions figuring out how to manipulate people by running focus groups that quantify the emotional content of words and phrases. He is pro-vax. He decided to use his powers for good, gathering GOP anti-vaxxers and bringing out high profile Republicans like Colin Powell to try and convince them to take it. Luntz could not get through to these people. He begged and pleaded. My take away is, most people would rather die than admit they were mistaken. “Again, if you actually care…” That is SO condescending and pompous and likely why Sam was short of patience. A zealot is a zealot regardless of faith. The difference between islamic and christian extremists is christians generally have a higher standard of living and more to lose by acting out in public. The minority I am referring to are the Evangelicals. There are not a lot of them. Fun fact: Southern Baptists broke away from the standard Baptists over the issue of slavery. The standard Baptists said, “you can’t own people. It is an offense to God.” I believe people whose faith says homosexuals and Jews will burn in Hell, or should be murdered, or who believe Blacks and women are less than dogs, should be marginalized and prohibited from voting. I have no way of verifying who has or hasn’t “done their research” or judging the validity of that research. Again, if this research provided anything useful, we would be seeing less extremism, not more. Research produced a COVID vaccine, and once it appeared, we saw less death from covid. Are you saying, if I only listened to Rory Stewart my extremist nightmares would disappear? Eh, Cassandra?
Michael
2024-02-17 07:58:19 +0000 UTCHey Lucy -- re meditation: The type Sam is specifically referring to is a form that is popular in Europe and North America (there are *many* types of 'meditation'). Sam is talking about a form usually known as 'mindfulness' meditation. This is usually practised by sitting, usually with eyes closed, allowing one's mind to either just 'do it's thing' (wander, sing songs, think about dinner, etc) and/or to attempt to focus on a very simple, usually dull task, such as counting breaths or repeating a phrase. Various claims have been made about the benefits and purposes of meditative practises. Below are the two most commonly made in the 'West', and which Sam is most concerned with. Within the 'meditation community' one of the most common claims is that mindfulness meditation will allow one to realise that one's thoughts tend to follow a set pattern, that certain stimuli tend to lead to predicable results. For example, a song might remind you of an event, which reminds you of a person, that reminds you of a bad relationship, that puts you in a bad mood, that makes you irritable... and knowing this allows you to 'stop the spiral' and exercise a level of 'meta-cognition'. Sam's claim goes a little further into Buddhist metaphysics. Sam's claim (and a very particular type of Western interpretation of Buddhist ideas) is that if one watches one's thoughts eventually one realises that the 'thinker' isn't a fixed entity. That there are patterns (as described above), but that this is all they are: there is no grand scheme behind it. In effect, what is experienced subjectively as 'the me' is really compounded habits over time. The idea is realising this allows one to gain a sense that all humans have a 'base line', that this 'base line' is actually one of total selflessness, and that all conflict internally and externally arises from the attachment to the 'habit which is ourself'. Sam's claim is that he has practised long enough that he has had this insight and it now colours how he addresses every political and personal issue in his life, and that were (enough?) others to have the same experiences and adopt the same metaphysics, they would abandoned 'selfish' thinking and things like extremism would be much rarer and not gain political backing in the manner of ISL, etc.
Ymirsdreams
2024-02-17 07:21:39 +0000 UTCI have the sense that this wasn't particularly pleasant to go through, so I hope you both (Chris and Matt) did something enjoyable afterwards and don't let him suck the fun out of the project. I do think allowing Sam to clarify his views and why he holds them was helpful (although I didn't find them compelling). His doubling down on everything made it very clear that you weren't strawman-ing or misrepresenting him in the past.
Ymirsdreams
2024-02-17 07:03:26 +0000 UTCWow, you're giving me another chance to say Sam is a moral monster? You shouldn't. This week's news from Gaza, I guess you haven't been reading it: The Israelis had Nasser hospital surrounded and ordered everyone to evacuate. To get the message through, they arrested a young man, beat him etc., and ordered him to go into the hospital and tell everyone to leave or be killed. They also ordered him to return to the Israeli soldiers, or they'd kill everyone in the hospital. He did so, gave hospital staff & all the warning to leave, and returned as ordered. Thereupon they executed him with 3 bullets. That's kind of typical of what the Israeli soldiers have been doing. https://theintercept.com/2024/02/14/gaza-nasser-hospital-evacuation-israel-prisoner/ Nah, you don't want last week's news either. I'm trying to figure out how these are comparable to car crashes. Really.
Kat
2024-02-17 06:50:52 +0000 UTCI'm more sympathetic to Sam's viewpoint than most in these comment threads, but I was just disappointed with his lack of good manners, really. I get that he's exasperated, but it's really not a good look to talk over and across Matt and Chris to the extent that he did, and then ramble for such a disproportionate time of the conversation - even if it's his Right to Reply. (Incidentally, I think the exasperation in itself shows a lack of intellectual humility, especially given both how well-considered and good-faith the criticisms of Matt and Chris are. It just didn't feel he was engaging with M&C at all, only the simplified caricature of a leftist critic that, in fairness, he must meet everywhere all the time.)
Dries T.
2024-02-17 06:43:22 +0000 UTCYeah, I live in San Antonio, Texas, while I am a leftie and think our governor is a lunatic, we absolutely don’t live in a theocracy. Though they would probably love that. However, I would definitely say they are trying to blur the lines more and more between church and state.
Floatgoat.
2024-02-17 06:34:32 +0000 UTCI felt that you guys (Matt & Chris) engaged in a lot of "whataboutism" and "good people on both sidesism" . I think Sam went through a lot of Zoolander-style "I feel like I'm taking crazy pills" when the other side doesn't seem to understand his points - for instance on the asymmetry of actions in the Gaza situation :D I have to give match point Harris on this one.
Jori Grym
2024-02-17 06:29:23 +0000 UTCI did and it was the beginning of the end of me taking Sam seriously.
Tim Tripp
2024-02-17 05:40:43 +0000 UTCI don't think you've lived in a theocracy if you think Austin Texas is a theocracy. Abortion access being rolled back is terrible but it's not quite the same thing as theocratic rule. Rory Stewart's advice for Americans? Probably vote for moderate candidates if you want moderate politicians. How do you negotiate with extremists? Again, if you actually care about this there are a bunch of relevant resources you could consult... it doesn't sound like you are interested though. I'm not even sure what small minority you are referring to, you seem to be windmilling between reference to Islamist extremists and evangelical nationalists. Getting whipped into a frenzy in a comment thread isn't doing anything. If you want to find out about research on counter-extremism or negotiating with religious extremists, then don't go to Sam because he has done very little research on either topic.
Christopher Kavanagh
2024-02-17 04:48:57 +0000 UTC“Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” - PKD
Michael
2024-02-17 04:02:41 +0000 UTCI never have meditated, and just the thought of doing it sounds horrible!
Lucy
2024-02-17 03:23:22 +0000 UTCI didn’t follow all that. What were they talking about? Something about being introspective and realizing that feelings don’t last very long? Was that it?
Lucy
2024-02-17 03:22:37 +0000 UTCThere is a reasonable chance that an extremist may be the next president of the US. We are all terrified over here. Whatever these sensible people are saying apparently nobody is listening, because things here are going from bad to worse at a quick pace. I have lived in Austin, Texas for the past 11 years. It is effectively a theocracy. People are suffering and dying here, right now, because of religious extremism. What is Rory Stewart’s advice for them? I am curious - how do you negotiate with someone who has eyes for the rewards of the next life? I am not concerned about Sam’s feelings, but I empathize with him. This is a question nobody wants to address directly and it’s exasperating. These people are a small minority in the US and they wield tremendous power and it is terrifying because nobody will address the elephant in the room for fear of sounding “problematic”.
Michael
2024-02-17 02:50:44 +0000 UTCAre you meditating regularly?
Michael
2024-02-17 02:44:43 +0000 UTCHow’s so what? Did you listen to that conversation?
Floatgoat.
2024-02-17 02:22:19 +0000 UTCI don't think Sam's point was that it is racist to talk about natural origin. He was just saying that it was unexpected that the lab leak theory was the one labeled as racist given that Chinese people eating weird animals is a well worn trope in American culture.
Trees
2024-02-17 02:07:52 +0000 UTCNone of what you say follows. Someone saying something mean about someone on a podcast would have zero relevance to their expertise. It sounds like you are more concerned about Sam's feelings than you are finding relevant research on extremism.
Christopher Kavanagh
2024-02-17 02:02:15 +0000 UTCCare to explain his take on how subjective insights during mediation lead to objective claims about consciousness? None of that came together for me.
Trees
2024-02-17 02:01:40 +0000 UTCFor me Sam came off great. He made complete good sense and I’ve listened to this a couple of times. It really astonishes me that people are criticizing him.
Lucy
2024-02-17 00:32:44 +0000 UTCSam Harris is long winded, my god. 15 minutes of lab leak talk and there was barely time for any push back. Wished you had gone harder on him.
Charlie Friedberg
2024-02-17 00:00:30 +0000 UTCIf he doesn’t have the sense to realize that publicly airing a resentment w/o first addressing it privately with the offending party is an escalation, how can he be an expert on extremist conflict resolution? This is his vanity project.
Michael
2024-02-17 00:00:18 +0000 UTCAn argument is not invalidated just because one side says the claims of the other side are false, or even if both sides make that claim. Each claim needs to assessed on its merits.
Ant Marsh
2024-02-16 23:57:12 +0000 UTCNow Im really confused. I thought Sam Harris was pro lab leak and DTG was anti lab leak. Now you are agreeing w/ Sam?
Michael
2024-02-16 23:49:19 +0000 UTCEh,zoonosis i think you meant . But yes its a simple proposition , if you had to place a bet , your money would go on zoonotic spill over based on what is known at this time .
Colin Fardey
2024-02-16 23:39:01 +0000 UTCRory Stewart, who subsequently went on another podcast and mischaracterized his conversation with Sam and threw him under a bus? He’s a fop.
Michael
2024-02-16 23:28:24 +0000 UTCThere are plenty of sensible people addressing extremism and how to counter it. If you want one recent figure who covered it with Sam, see Rory Stewart or read any of the relevant literature on counter extremism.
Christopher Kavanagh
2024-02-16 23:12:33 +0000 UTCThis isn’t right. The evidence very strongly favours natural origin. There is nothing racist about acknowledging where the scientific evidence lies. Wet markets existing has little to do with most Chinese people.
Christopher Kavanagh
2024-02-16 23:11:11 +0000 UTCI am wondering - what do people believe is to be done about intractable religious fanatics? Here in the USA, I can tell you they are a real problem. It doesn’t matter what God, either. Religious people have been actively making me miserable my entire life, through beatings, shaming, humiliation, etc. What is to be done? Anybody? What is to be done with people who throw homosexuals off buildings and force 12 year olds impregnated by their fathers to carry to term? Anyone have an answer? Sam didn’t come off so great, but maybe his patience had worn thin.
Michael
2024-02-16 23:02:23 +0000 UTCHow so?
Michael
2024-02-16 22:53:55 +0000 UTCI’ve heard both sides of the argument and neither makes sense, since both sides make statements they assert to be true that the other claims is false. Sam is right though - the wet market theory is easily the more racist.
Michael
2024-02-16 22:53:21 +0000 UTCAs you're asking for QC comments... whatever the LUT or adjustment made to Chris' shot I think is probably doing more harm than good. Not that there would be time for this kind of change but the the 3-way view popping in and out to mask cuts doesn't feel great (this might just be my taste), and perhaps focus-switching between speaker and reactions as needed/wanted would feel smoother.
Brendan Smith
2024-02-16 22:45:00 +0000 UTCI wish you had spent more time on the lab leak. I say this as somone who likes Sam , but his position makes no sense . We have the consensus among the relevant experts , viroligists and epidemiologists. On the other hand we have "i dont quite tust virologists based on a book i read " and an intelligence agency has evidence that "we cant see". How can that equate to "its 50 /50 in my eyes " ?
Colin Fardey
2024-02-16 22:41:08 +0000 UTCI don’t know how self aware he is. He had a disagreement with Ezra Klein awhile back and he read that situation all wrong. Their discussion is worth a listen.
Floatgoat.
2024-02-16 22:31:10 +0000 UTCWatching Sam's facial reactions makes his rhetoric worse. It's not a good look.
Jake Lawrence
2024-02-16 22:23:48 +0000 UTC
