Huberman & Attia Episode (Slightly early release)
Added 2023-11-09 03:24:40 +0000 UTCHey everyone,
Sorry this one took so long.
Matt and I had deadlines and all the usual academic guff that gets in the way.
The episode will come out on the main feed later today but since it is ready in audio format now. I thought you might appreciate it a few hours early.
Any audio issues let me know and I'll try and fix before we release on the main feed.
Comments
Deer hunting with a bow. While I’m grounding to the earth. Next to a stream for the ions. 🙄 Optimizing guys, don’t knock it.
Liz Tily
2024-09-03 19:06:10 +0000 UTCThis was an interesting interview Huberman did with Science Vs https://open.spotify.com/episode/5z4LVpvEA7ytOe9mWhur0l
Matt
2023-11-23 16:13:46 +0000 UTCClear that Brett has miscast himself as the young woman and that what he’s actually doing is clearing the way for a new hyperspace bypass
Robert Roots
2023-11-20 09:35:08 +0000 UTCNice analogy, Paul. Huberman really does want to believe. From my perspective, being overly concerned about my body’s weight was a way to control the one aspect of reality I could, to some extent, control. Unfortunately, when I treated my body like a thing to be disciplined, it also became a way to punish myself for not being what I wanted to be due to low self-esteem. It seems like Attia and Huberman have mostly healthy senses of self-esteem. I’m a more worried about some of their followers who could be vulnerable to go down a path similar to the one I went down. I also think putting so much attention on youthfulness as a value can be problematic since we all inevitably age. I wanted to hug Matt when he said “No one wants to see us naked.” Thank you, Matt.
Linda Sears
2023-11-14 13:36:58 +0000 UTCVery enjoyable. I have to say they reminded me of the Mulder and Scully of the bro-science wellness world. Huberman's "I want to believe" finds its foil in Attia's more orthodox scepticism. But like Scully, his avowed scepticism is in the end supportive, towards a common project. Attia's orthorexia sounded a little alarming. Like you say, its not anyone's place to psychologise people's obsessions, whether body-building, extreme piercing, base-jumping or extreme S&M (between consenting adults). That said, anorexics would also argue that their's is just a lifestyle choice and they should be left to get on with it, so, hum... It does seem a little like a male gendered cousin - brorexia, maybe?
Paul Bowman
2023-11-13 18:02:29 +0000 UTCRight you are!
Christopher Kavanagh
2023-11-13 09:41:13 +0000 UTCThis is an excellent comment and very good to see. It's also helpful to have the additional context provided so thanks for that!
Christopher Kavanagh
2023-11-13 00:33:40 +0000 UTCGreat episode, once again. As a regular listener of the Huberman podcast and Peter Attia's podcast, I was eagerly awaiting you guys to cover this journal club. I am the first to admit that I probably fall into the mould of the typical 'optimizer': I watch what I eat, I am a fitness enthusiast, etc., though I am not at the Attia/Huberman extreme of ingesting 100 supplements per day. I am well aware of the absurdity of health optimization and I've heard Attia and Huberman (and Tim Ferris) being able to take a step back and not take themselves TOO seriously in their quest to live 'optiomally' to 150 years old. Matt made a good point: it is kind of like a hobby for people like me, and I am sure there are deeply rooted reasons for the crowd of optimizers to purse this quest, like an unconscious way to deal with existential questions, fear of death, etc. I find it quite disappointing to see that an 'academic' like Huberman, who claims that "science" is at the heart of his show, manages to wildly misinterpret research papers. It is frustrating for people like me who aren't specialists in the fields he covers, and who don't have time to delve into the research he cites to back up his claims, that he misrepresents the truth. I am sure that he does not do this willingly, and I know that he doesn't do this the majority of the time, but still, it is both sad to see that and great that you guys debunk some of the BS he puts out there. He is a very good communicator though, which is probably part of the reason for his popularity. About the 'flexing' Attia and Huberman did during one part of the episode: having listened to many episodes of Attia's podcast, he is (probably unconciously) the worst culprit of this - he often throws around medical acronyms or complex physiological mechanisms where he seems assume that the lay public (like me) will understand. I do think he knows his stuff quite deeply, and he probably doesn't do this counciously, but still it can be annoying at times. Anyway, always a pleasure listening to you guys! Great work.
Martin Pelchat
2023-11-12 14:58:45 +0000 UTCYes, it is a little bit like two guys puttering around in a shop making things. Maybe this gives them an excuse to hang out.
Linda Sears
2023-11-11 00:19:23 +0000 UTCThe attention economy is not separate from either the real economy or the academic economy
Paul Bowman
2023-11-10 22:32:14 +0000 UTCAh, I see. Yeah, and I did find it a bit weird when Huberman was putting in so many caveats that he wasn't talking about a particular vaccine. It was verging on Brett Weinstein's air-quoted vaccines.
brianshmrian
2023-11-10 22:30:43 +0000 UTCIt is true!
Christopher Kavanagh
2023-11-10 22:20:08 +0000 UTCHe could be but Huberman has been rather reticent to address vaccines... at all. Yet when discussing the potential for replacing pharmacological effects, vaccines come up very quickly. As Matt says... I wonder why he went there instead of say supplements.
Christopher Kavanagh
2023-11-10 21:46:47 +0000 UTCThe addition of the occasional extra syllable is a feature of Hiberno-English. E.g. the English "film" becomes fillum. There's actually a clever linguistic explanation for this, but I've forgotten what it is. Apart from the basics, that Hiberno-English speakers inherit the ghost of the Irish language which is reflected in grammar, phraseology and phonics, beyond mere accent
Paul Bowman
2023-11-10 20:44:43 +0000 UTCI don't want to be a Huberman apologist, but wasn't he suggesting that belief in a vaccine _dosage_ might affect immune response? He wasn't saying that you could visualize an antigen in order to create antibodies. The dose has to be greater than 0.
brianshmrian
2023-11-10 18:35:41 +0000 UTCIn the clips when you hear Brett Weinstein talking, he's still coughing a LOT. Maybe he should have gotten that vaccine!
Jennifer Nelson
2023-11-10 18:33:07 +0000 UTCYes, and demarking those lines and standards is what keeps the system of science in balance. Maybe the problem isn't just the eagerness but the lack of regulation in the alternative health market. Or, more fundamentally, people's desperate need for remedies and self-improvement.
Christoph
2023-11-10 12:31:24 +0000 UTCLove the podcast, but I felt that this one was less "Decoding the Gurus" and more "Embodying Reviewer 2". :D
Robert Andrews
2023-11-10 06:05:45 +0000 UTCSo I am not a medicine or science person, but I was recently talking to someone who is both about some research he'd done that showed a strong placebo effect around a particular procedure (totally unrelated to ADHD to be clear). He told me that virtually every medical study picks up some kind of placebo effect - the only question is how big it is. And told me to be *very* sceptical of anyone who dismissed a medical treatment solely on the basis of placebo.
Artemis Green
2023-11-10 06:01:38 +0000 UTCAnd an added syllable! Longetivity, not longevity.
Randy
2023-11-10 04:19:32 +0000 UTCYou sweet Southern child! You just need to be Northern Irish and you'll encounter the sentiment soon enough at some bar!
Christopher Kavanagh
2023-11-10 04:06:40 +0000 UTCStanford seems very happy with the attention he provides. I imagine they are extremely indulgent because of the attention and (possibly) some extra funding but mainly he provides lots of PR for the university and in turn uses his university credentials to promote his show. Academics are critical but are also just as prone to being starstruck so I imagine that he has relatively popular with others grumbling about his self-promotion/lack of research, etc.
Christopher Kavanagh
2023-11-10 04:05:43 +0000 UTCI think you have a point about different approaches but I also think there are basic standards. There is not good evidence for lots of things that Huberman claims and his approach to papers reflects an eagerness that ignores the quality of the evidence supplied. Huberman as far as I can see is doing very little actual science these days but a lot of promoting supplements and claims made on weak evidence.
Christopher Kavanagh
2023-11-10 04:02:30 +0000 UTCThese biohackers are like hypochondriacs using their powers for risky but possible good.
Evan
2023-11-09 22:58:02 +0000 UTCMore pronunciation fun this time from Chris with longevity with a hard g 😛
YellowDreams
2023-11-09 22:26:24 +0000 UTC“You have to play with the play dough that’s available, not your dream play dough.”
gyrthwyrm
2023-11-09 18:47:02 +0000 UTCReally great listen, thanks guys. I'm interested in any insight you can offer on the issues someone like Huberman might experience at an academic institution given the popularity of his podcast (as well as the type of audience he attracts). Do you think his colleagues take him less seriously because of it? As you say, he seems to go to great lengths to not comment on covid vaccines. If he did start giving anti-vaccine type advice, how much of an impact (if any) would that have on his academic work and his professional relationships?
Jim Murray
2023-11-09 17:50:31 +0000 UTCThis made me think about the relationship between different values and motivations and approaches to science. Hooverman seems to be high on technically exploitable causalities (for biohacking). Others get nerdy on methodological correctness, the impractical complexity of the world or epistemological questions. Prioritizing usefulness seems the most obviously problematic approach, but it's probably about finding a good balance. Focusing too heavily on any one of the aspects will lead to shortcomings. So, maybe people like the biohackers are not just cooky hobbyists but provide a necessary tension to the scientific endeavor - however grating that might be to those differently inclined ;)
Christoph
2023-11-09 16:30:07 +0000 UTCThinking of fitness optimization as these guy's hobby definitely helped me understand them. Some people memorize all the stats from the NFL, some people build model trains, and some people spend all their mental energy thinking about which supplements and fitness routines to adopt. I doubt they'd admit this, but I bet they enjoy the process of tinkering with their health just as much, if not more than, the positive health outcomes themselves.
Ben Godek
2023-11-09 15:34:29 +0000 UTCEven if the findings of the paper were real, does it have profound medical implications? You reduce a kid's ADHD medicine dose while telling them it's still the same. Their body responds as if the dose was unchanged. Is the paper/Huberman asserting that negative side effects will be weaker while positive effects stay the same? I can't see how this would matter unless you're in a country where medication has to be rationed.
Subodh Kafle
2023-11-09 14:45:18 +0000 UTCThank you. I’ll be late to listening since a new stack of papers just came in. This will be my reward after I’m done.
Linda Sears
2023-11-09 13:10:17 +0000 UTCFor real, am I listening to someone say they did '18 months of intensive work with a psychiatrist' so that they could have 'the most profound dream ever' at a conference in Aspen?? Re: Matt saying 'Australians don't have revelations like that', regrettably I must beg to differ. But the ones who do all live in Byron or Bondi so fortunately the rest of us don't have to hear about their dreams.
Artemis Green
2023-11-09 12:53:17 +0000 UTCRE the intro . The coversation about the relationship between North and South was interesting . I can honestly say , I have never heard of anyone down here holding a negative opinion about people from the North . Worst I heard would have been a comment about the accents maybe.
Colin Fardey
2023-11-09 12:25:46 +0000 UTCWhat's more torturous: Vogon poetry or Brett Weinstein's 'logic'?
Artemis Green
2023-11-09 12:21:19 +0000 UTCHalfway through. This Matt Foreman fellow seems like he's got things figured out!
Lee Kebum
2023-11-09 12:19:20 +0000 UTCFair point. I stopped following him a couple of years ago and I have not kept up with his evolution. I guess it's good that he's modelling more healthy behaviours. Although minor point, I actually think fasting in moderation is fine. It was just the way he did it was totally OTT! I'm glad he's not doing that anymore. Maybe my criticisms are irrelevant now. Which is good
Emma
2023-11-09 11:24:44 +0000 UTCI always thought the intro music sounded like the HHGttG, glad to know its intentional as its a great theme.
billw2011
2023-11-09 11:18:31 +0000 UTCStole this for the promotional tweet.
Christopher Kavanagh
2023-11-09 10:50:03 +0000 UTCYeah I hear what you are saying but counterpoint: he does seem to have moderated his advice and now does not recommend fasting. Similarly, he did recommend vaccines. I think he’s a history of being zealous but currently seems to be in a moderating phase, which is… hopeful?
Christopher Kavanagh
2023-11-09 10:49:31 +0000 UTCOh I should add, the whole berbarine metformin thing is not just about longevity. Some people use them for weight loss. Which may have been why Peter was first using it?
Emma
2023-11-09 10:35:32 +0000 UTCI think a missing piece of the puzzle, when speculating on why Attia was so ready to self experiment with metformin etc. Is that Peter has said that when he was younger he used to struggle with his weight. My theory on him is he is a smart guy obvs but I think he has orthorexia. And I think this messes with his thinking when it comes to his own body. And yes he had chops at reading science papers. But I worry in a lot of ways he's just a male Gwyneth Paltrow. In that he has disordered behaviour around food and exercise and he's influencing his followers to adopt similar disordered behaviours.
Emma
2023-11-09 10:33:43 +0000 UTCI will add this to my podcast listening protocol.
Ymirsdreams
2023-11-09 09:37:43 +0000 UTCReally looking forward to his one. Thanks lads.
LaserRange
2023-11-09 08:47:34 +0000 UTCAgreed. He's not in that league, just a little too giddy with questionable findings.
Anjan Sarkar
2023-11-09 08:16:58 +0000 UTCWithout listening to the episode I'd guess he'll be fairly mid. I just don't think he comes close to the Weinsteins, Rogan, Jordan Hall, etc.
Subodh Kafle
2023-11-09 08:15:18 +0000 UTCExcited to see what the Gurumeter has to say. Hubey might make it spin .....
Anjan Sarkar
2023-11-09 06:31:11 +0000 UTCOoo excited for this one.
Joanna Rusher
2023-11-09 05:42:43 +0000 UTCI do appreciate it, thank you! 🙏
HustleTron9000
2023-11-09 03:29:47 +0000 UTCThank you!
Lillie
2023-11-09 03:28:09 +0000 UTC
