Sam Harris Extended Interview released
Added 2021-10-30 06:25:07 +0000 UTCSo that secret episode we were teasing dropped and it’s the ever unifying figure of Sam Harris.
At some point we probably should do a retrospective on the experience of interviewing Sam for Patreons but it was definitely a distinctive experience.
Will be interested to hear what everyone thinks about the episode. We are anticipating his haters and fans both finding this annoying for different reasons but maybe we will be pleasantly surprised.
Anyhow hope you enjoy and let us know what you thought!
Comments
In this supposed moral and intellectual emergency, Sam Harris is not aware of Tucker on Fox somehow and worried about the pablam of the New York Times?
nolipsorjoints
2021-11-17 04:27:03 +0000 UTCSam can tie modern "woke" ideology to specific documents written in 1948, but he is unable to tie current white nationalist propaganda to historical records of old school white supremacist ideology. If white nationalism is an uknowable political force because he's too busy to look into it, then he can't have a conversation about where he fits in the Venn diagram with white nationalist ideologies. Using Sam's logic, since Anne Coulter writes unkind things about Trump, there cannot be any overlap between her views and Trumpism, or his flavor of tribalism. Sam thinks that Fox and Newsmax are dangerous, but he's never watched them. How does he know? He thinks Rubin is a neutral journalist, but can't comment on the content because he doesn't know much about it. Sam needs to look into a person's soul or hear them say the N-word to determine whether a person is racist, but only needs to look at a retweet to determine whether someone is woke.
languageguy
2021-11-11 01:40:24 +0000 UTCChris - you mentioned in the last episode that there is a recording of you debriefing the Sam Harris interview, where is this please?
Stephane
2021-11-09 09:19:29 +0000 UTCWas able to finish it (through much teeth grinding). This is the most time I have devoted to Sam since 2003 and it was only tolerable due to Chris saying, in the most reasonable way possible, what needed to be said.
Joel H. Dinolt
2021-11-04 23:37:20 +0000 UTCGood episode, love the podcast. Left feeling a little concerned about Chris’s Twitter usage. That ish can be toxic - same with most social media drama. Surely a near impossible balance, but is there a way to stay up to speed with the gurus while avoiding the culture war minutia? Most of it is just distracting fluff anyway..
Blake Lever
2021-11-03 20:17:37 +0000 UTCYears ago Sam stumbled into the culture war and now he sees it everywhere. The problem is that the culture war has been raging for longer than any of us have been alive and once you make it part of your identity it captures more and more of your attention. How long have you been hearing people in a moral panic over political correctness? The overcorrection of the civil rights movement? The capture of academia by the left? Creeping Cultural Marxism? The American Red Scare is over a century old at this point, our panic over the United States going communist has outlived the Soviet Union. I'll grant that it's worth discussing legitimate concerns within the oeuvre of culture war, but what has generations of moral panic achieved? To use one of Sam's favorite terms, culture war has a deranging effect on people who make it part of their identity. The deeper one sinks into culture war the more apocalyptic their predictions become. Before you know it you're writing off entire fields of study as illegitimate and labeling complex institutions as dishonest without putting in the requisite work or having the expertise to back up your claims.
Christopher McLaughlin
2021-11-03 18:50:04 +0000 UTCNot here btw, I mean online... but Sam does have a very devoted fanbase so not surprising!
Christopher Kavanagh
2021-11-03 14:04:51 +0000 UTCAppreciate the criticism! Was usually jabbing with a point but a few times from frustration ;)
Christopher Kavanagh
2021-11-03 14:04:11 +0000 UTCSo did we...
Christopher Kavanagh
2021-11-03 14:03:28 +0000 UTCThanks Tom!
Christopher Kavanagh
2021-11-03 14:03:19 +0000 UTCAppreciate the nice comment! Thanks that is what we were aiming for, whether or not we succeeded.
Christopher Kavanagh
2021-11-03 14:02:58 +0000 UTCMe too... and thanks.
Christopher Kavanagh
2021-11-03 14:02:25 +0000 UTCThanks!
Christopher Kavanagh
2021-11-03 14:02:12 +0000 UTCI don't think Sam will have lost much sleep over interrupting us.
Christopher Kavanagh
2021-11-03 14:02:03 +0000 UTCThanks!
Christopher Kavanagh
2021-11-03 14:01:06 +0000 UTCIt might be nice to revisit in 6 months or so but I doubt Sam will be so inclined.
Christopher Kavanagh
2021-11-03 14:00:50 +0000 UTCI think the key difference here is that I don't think, for the most part, that Sam's answers were addressing the point. On some occasions, yes but on many occasions they felt largely irrelevant.
Christopher Kavanagh
2021-11-03 14:00:23 +0000 UTCHad you listened to the raw it was much worse but in my defence if I did not interrupt towards the end, I don't think we would have got much of a word in edgeways.
Christopher Kavanagh
2021-11-03 13:59:15 +0000 UTCWhether he wants to be or not, he is there! TBH I would have used a different word if I had known it would elicit such a strong response.
Christopher Kavanagh
2021-11-03 13:57:25 +0000 UTCHe does seem to have a surprising lack of curiosity while citing his studies as if they are extremely significant. But small N fMRI studies are generally something you should look on very skeptically.
Christopher Kavanagh
2021-11-03 13:56:07 +0000 UTCI've heard them too. Would have been nice if he had checked if the point was in dispute before relating them...
Christopher Kavanagh
2021-11-03 13:54:48 +0000 UTCYou wouldn't know it from a lot of responses ;)
Christopher Kavanagh
2021-11-03 13:53:52 +0000 UTCBTW, I blame Chris Hitchens cancer on a good bit of the proliferation of this GURU chicanery you’ve showcased. He would have cut these charlatans low while three sheets to the wind and full drunk.
Joshua G Ziegler
2021-11-03 01:05:42 +0000 UTCIt took me a couple of days to finish this podcast. This was an hour longer than it needed to be. Sam doesn’t want to be in a tribe. Chris wants to wrap everyone in a neat little tribal bow. Got it. Can we pour out a little liquor for the Dave Rubin’s, Gad Saad’s, and all the other irrational IDW’s we lost along the way during the past 6 years? Trump has murdered a few careers and we’ll look back at all the intellectual blood that has been spilled in his name. I triple heart the work you do here at Guru’s. Don’t lose sight that Sam is an ally on the good side once all this illiberal nonsense shakes out.
Joshua G Ziegler
2021-11-03 01:02:44 +0000 UTCI thought the first section was excellent! On Realization. Thank you Matt for pointing out the Epistemic problem with verification: In order to see it you have to do it properly and if you dont see it that must mean you aren't doing it properly. Also citing people who think they have experienced it and then change their mind. Sam doesn't claim to be fully enlightened but has enough experience to "know what he knows" I was a Siddha Yoga devotee in the early 80s. The sales pitch was that we all experience flow in moments. "The Self is Allready Realised" but that we need to follow certain practises to become established in that knowledge. Years later I discovered they had an escape clause "There is no such thing as self realization" It is like a lolly that you promise a child to get them a certain distance along the path. They need to leave the path to reach the goal. It would be interesting to know Sam's thoughts on Guru Self Deception.... although the question might put him into defence mode. The second section was exhausting to listen to. I thought that Sam wasn't quite as defensive as he was with Ezra Klein Well done Chris for tackling it.
Kirsten Greed
2021-11-02 21:57:11 +0000 UTCGood episode. I don't know how Sam came away from that thinking he looked good. He seemed like a man terrified to be labeled as tribal, thinking he's perfectly, and coming accross as a conspiracy theorist. I think what bugs me the most about Sam is how he consistently comments as an authority on academia and so many fields when his own stint in academia was hilariously short. He thinks he's a Galileo, but he's an Brett Weinstein.
Anonymous ethicist, not a serial killer at all, just asking questions.
2021-11-02 15:34:01 +0000 UTCYOU GUYS HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT!!! Just kidding, I just wanted your attention because I completely agree with the positive review you read at the end of this episode. I feel the exact same way that your voices are great to have as IDW criticisms for those of us that have been following them for years. You both deserve praise and encouragement. Even better, I’m now a supporter on patreon…keep up the good work! During Covid, I felt I could no longer trust the news sources I had been relying on my entire life. I know Fox was bogus, but somewhere between every story on CNN, NY Times, etc. seemingly ending with ‘because Trump is evil’ and the fact I’m supposed to live in terror of my neighbors…accept for when I wasn’t because of social justice…I lost faith. So up until you guys, the IDW was the only group making any sense to me. Thank you for stepping up into the void. Your voices are so badly needed.
Peter Zavlaris
2021-11-01 17:03:34 +0000 UTCThanks very much for this episode. Hearing Sam Harris being confronted on these issues was very cathartic for me. I'm not a Sam Harris hater by any means but there are parts of his world view that I find very irritating.
Gareth Lee
2021-11-01 13:57:38 +0000 UTCHe hedged a lot on this too, he said something along the lines of, he doesn't know what the chances are, but if someone said 50/50 he could be convinced of it. He can then come back and say that he never said that the chances were actually 50/50, only that he could be convinced that they are 50/50, and people misrepresent him.
MaxPlan
2021-11-01 04:56:31 +0000 UTCI’ve listened to Waking Up, now Making Sense, with Sam Harris for well over 5 years. Sam’s greatest character flaw is his lack of self awareness. How he can attribute everything that happens in his life to luck while maintaining his massive ego is an endless source of hilarity. I have a lot of love for Sam but he isn’t a good listener, he rarely addresses the exact critique being made of him, and he relies on well worn talking points that longtime listeners of his like me have heard dozens and dozens of times. That being said, this podcast was a lot of fun. I’m really looking forward to hearing what Chris and Matt think about Sam’s responses to Chris’s critiques.
Christopher McLaughlin
2021-11-01 04:10:44 +0000 UTCGood episode. Full disclosure, I've never listened to Sam Harris before (nor will I bother seeking him out after listening to this). Whatever approach to questioning/interviewing you take, someone's going to be unhappy. Personally I appreciated Chris's robust approach because it revealed certain rhetorical techniques Harris uses to muddy the water while he's gathering time to think or trying to divert the subject. He reminds me of those squids that release ink when they feel threatened or under attack. Harris has a lot of rhetorical ink to spread in the water when he gets a challenging question. I was aware of the islamophobia before hand, but believing France is about to become 50% muslim in the next decades and result in a civil war, killing millions (50/50 chance) is batshit delusional and quite proximate to "great replacement" conspiracism. Incredibly un-selfaware (ironically, given the meditation & mindfulness stuff) and un-selfcritical. Reminded me of that line from an exasperated Lloyd George that negotiating with Devalera was like "trying to pick up mercury with a fork".
Paul Bowman
2021-10-31 18:39:24 +0000 UTCHas Sam made an attempt (on his podcast) to define ‘wokeness’ or ‘wokeism’ because he spent a lot of time claiming that all the institutions of the ‘left’ are so consumed and influenced by it. I hope he did because I can’t possibly sign up for the Bari Weiss substack.
Tom McCool
2021-10-31 17:12:00 +0000 UTC@Chris : you've done a good job internalizing rapaport's rules. particularly highlighting points of agreement on various topics. Keep up the good work.
Jonathan Cano
2021-10-31 16:05:15 +0000 UTCAs a fan of and subscriber to the Sam Harris podcast I really liked the discussion despite the talking past each other on "tribalism". If you had the agility to simply relabel what Chris called "tribalism" to "" you probably would have saved a lot of wasted energy. As a fan of Sam's I still disagree with him on a lot of things. E.g. I thought Ezra sounded more reasonable than Sam when they argued during his appearance on Sam's podcast. I hope (1) you do another show with Sam Harris, perhaps in 6 months or a year and (2) you do a better job preparing so that the next discussion has less talking past one another. Perhaps the "preparing" can include some email exchanges or each side sending some references for the other to read in preparation.
Jonathan Cano
2021-10-31 15:57:29 +0000 UTCAs a big fan of both I thought it was good intellectual sparring but Chris’ verbal arm jabs got tiresome. “Focusing of wokeness isn’t tribalism but a matter of priorities” was a point from Sam where he didn’t recognize how political prioritization is itself a tribal feature and Chris didn’t recognize this as the point he was trying to seemingly drive at. Instead it went in circles a little too long but was a novel topic to discuss with Sam and he came out very well in the end imo. Cheers guys!
Kyle D
2021-10-31 14:16:26 +0000 UTCMy guess is that Sam thinks you are wrong on those points, or "confused" as he would put it. Personally, I just think his statement was overblown, like when he says he understands Bin Laden better than Trump. He isn't subtle that Sam Harris. Still, don't loose your mind. There are plenty of other things in the world to worry about, just ask Sam :)
Tim Graubaek
2021-10-31 13:35:53 +0000 UTCAgreed but I wouldn't characterize the 1619 project as non-intellectual piece of propaganda for blatantly political purposes. Even if you believe it's not intellectual (I would challenge anyone who says that to actually read it) it still isn't in and of itself propaganda for the Democrat party, or the left for that matter.
Dexter King Williams
2021-10-31 13:12:50 +0000 UTCI'm only half joking. Sam is trolling you. When he said it, I thought that that comment was made to be taken out of context. He obviously thinks that Fox News never was, neither news nor intellectual, and that the New York Times is, or at least was, historically. Hence his pain.
Tim Graubaek
2021-10-31 12:58:59 +0000 UTCI thought this was pretty good. I do think that the last hour and a half on the semantics of tribalism was a bit... long. Anyway, kudos to Sam and DTG for doing this.
Tim Graubaek
2021-10-31 12:16:12 +0000 UTCI'd love to hear this context I'm leaving out.....are u serious?!? This must be a joke post...
Dexter King Williams
2021-10-31 12:15:26 +0000 UTCI'm not sure it's worth loosing your mind over a quote taken out of context.
Tim Graubaek
2021-10-31 12:07:42 +0000 UTCSam is a master of self-presentation and has the same pleasant well-reasoned sounding tone when he is saying something that makes sense as when his points are utterly outrageous and objectionable. Combine this with his apparently well-practiced style of not taking turns in a normal way in a conversation without any modulation of tone (I do wonder how this works out with someone who isn’t as accommodating as Chris was) and I return to wanting to see the issues at play here laid out on the table as uninterrupted text. He does have a *massive* audience - and while I realize getting this lengthy a conversation and remaining calm and challenging is already a huge service, the whole thing seems so on-mission for the DTG that I think another round of analysis would be in order.
Tom Allison
2021-10-31 10:11:40 +0000 UTCI admire anyone who will discuss their views in a thoughtful way with someone who disagrees- and someone who will ask challenging questions in a clear and respectful way. I don’t agree with everything Sam says on any subject, and very much disagree with lots. I don’t agree with all the DTG views either. But I really appreciated both Sam and Chris having this conversations. I can learn and improve my discernment and nuanced understanding by listening to such interactions- which is much appreciated. I look forward to more such conversations.
Christine Jenkins
2021-10-31 09:36:09 +0000 UTCEven 2x doesn’t feel fast enough for Sam
Rob Franks
2021-10-31 09:22:00 +0000 UTCNice work putting that together, It was a really good listen. I wanted Sam to back down even a little from some of his takes but it never really happened. Was a novel experience to hear him face a well structured line of questioning, nice job Chris!
Rob Franks
2021-10-31 09:12:40 +0000 UTCI've followed Sam for years and this was legit the best debate I've ever heard him engage in. Chris really put him on his heels! Angry dog indeed.
Brian Naas
2021-10-31 07:08:10 +0000 UTCI commend you for both keeping your cool during this. I’m not sure either of you ever managed to completely finish a point without him interrupting. I hope he listens back to this and has some realisation that despite him clearly thinking an awful lot of himself he doesn’t actually appear to have developed some basic manners and communication skills.
Laura Reinger
2021-10-31 05:17:40 +0000 UTCI literally lost my mind when he said this ..
Dexter King Williams
2021-10-31 02:59:12 +0000 UTCSam Harris: "the 1619 project is a complete subversion of our intellectual life in a way fox news isnt"
Dexter King Williams
2021-10-31 02:57:59 +0000 UTCLOL. So true!
Emma
2021-10-31 02:34:03 +0000 UTCHave to listen to this in chunks because Sam is just so infuriating. Am halfway through and I really appreciate Chris pressing Sam on the charity issue.
Joel H. Dinolt
2021-10-31 00:56:57 +0000 UTCYeah, definitely lost a good chunk of time to beating a dead horse. Chris would ask a tribalism question, Sam would answer, Chris would rephrase his tribalism question, Sam would rephrase his answer, repeat that loop for an hour. Though it was partly redeemed for me towards the end with the exchange: “So you and I are in the same tribe and agree on most of this stuff but we’ve spent all this time disagreeing?” “Yes, yes…” 😂😩
Kevin Nyberg
2021-10-30 19:50:10 +0000 UTCWhen Sam speaks, I have to increase playback speed to 1.5x to get through him. It was nice to drop back to 1.0x for the outro.
Mike Nelson
2021-10-30 15:36:56 +0000 UTCDo you think there is enough left on the table to warrant any clarification of positions in writing? I’m less plugged into some of the history and details of the issues that were being discussed and I will be listening again, but I got the feeling a lot of groundwork was laid that might be fruitfully built upon in a medium in which each has an uninterrupted chance to explain their positions/concerns. I think this was a valuable encounter, overall.
Tom Allison
2021-10-30 14:55:47 +0000 UTCI thought it was good. I think the whole tribal bias conversation got a little redundant and ultimately not that productive. I see Chris's point, but Sam seemed to also have good explanations. It's amazing how much of Sam's history Chris knows. Lol.
William LEGRAIN
2021-10-30 14:48:17 +0000 UTCYeh, I think the missed opportunity was not to dig into that. Finding an area that Sam seems genuinely conflicted about is really rare!
Thomas Clarke
2021-10-30 13:53:18 +0000 UTCTotally with you. I read Sam for over a decade and just have such a hard time hearing him out in that anti woke stuff
Andrew Gough
2021-10-30 13:48:12 +0000 UTCSam’s rather disturbing on his claim that the institutions (media, academia, incl high school) have been captured by ‘wokeism’. His Bari Weiss like asserting the NYTIMES or CNN etc. are all woke and thereby prejudiced in their news coverage. This sort of broad brush that the corporate ownership is woke is belied everyday by their editorial coverage especially their op ed writers. I feel like i wasted all this time listening to Sam and Chris cross talk, interrupting each other to try and explain themselves. Blecch.
Tom McCool
2021-10-30 13:29:22 +0000 UTCI can't believe I used to like Sam Harris 😕 But Chris did a great job 👏 Matt a little AWOL. Well I haven't made it the whole way to the end. But I guess I have to hand it to Sam that it was brave to come on and try and defend his anti-woke stuff in front of an audience he must know was not going to be sympathetic.
Emma
2021-10-30 12:07:32 +0000 UTCinitial thoughts•••first time i've heard Sam explain why he doesn't criticise Rubin etc.. friendship, loyalty, knowing them . Fair enough and possibly endearing but not in keeping with Spock like logic . Made him a bit more understandable. Still not sure if realises the meta- ness of him using the blind spot analogy ...😐
Brainbiter
2021-10-30 11:54:41 +0000 UTCThis was my guess. Great! Sam is always good when he has someone to interact with (e.g. his episodes with Paul Bloom and Very Bad Wizards)
Jørgen
2021-10-30 08:10:42 +0000 UTChttps://decoding-the-gurus.captivate.fm/episode/sam-harris
Tom Allison
2021-10-30 07:33:20 +0000 UTCIt's here: https://decoding-the-gurus.captivate.fm/episode/sam-harris
Tom Allison
2021-10-30 07:33:07 +0000 UTCwhere is it?
Brainbiter
2021-10-30 07:32:19 +0000 UTCOh you did? Not seeing anything here. Where did you find it? Is it only for higher-tier patreons?
Paul
2021-10-30 07:27:46 +0000 UTCOh and, triple wow: Sam the-man Harris - “a strong advocate for the importance of religion in modern societies” (as Chris puts it) HIMSELF - doing a *response*. Nice get as the journos like to say… Looking forward to a nice long walk.
Tom Allison
2021-10-30 07:23:53 +0000 UTCAwesome.
William LEGRAIN
2021-10-30 07:10:02 +0000 UTCOK, found it on the site… Wow, 3 hours!
Tom Allison
2021-10-30 06:58:44 +0000 UTCWait, where is it? I’m on my phone and I can’t find anything to click…
Tom Allison
2021-10-30 06:57:49 +0000 UTC
