Otto von Bismarck - VI: Germany! - Extra History
Added 2017-11-17 18:00:00 +0000 UTCIs it possible to win too much? Maybe if you're Bismarck and you defeat the French so soundly there's no one left to surrender to you.
Comments
I like it
Tom Campbell
2017-12-05 16:56:19 +0000 UTCI think a series of the later days of Bismark and how he didn't get along with Friedrich III at all and his dismissal once Wilhelm II came into power. Could be a one shot at some point: Bismark's downfall.
Jonathan Luoto
2017-11-20 22:08:50 +0000 UTCIt's very debatable either can be credited to Bismarck in whole or in part. Bismarck's welfare schemes fell far below what socialists and Social Democrats were proposing and later enacted and extended. And surely the fact that Bismarck did it to steal the thunder from radicals means that he cannot lay any claim of originality on that front. Bismarck's motives for doing either was entirely anti-democratic and short-sighted, and it qualifies very much as throwing a bone to someone for not being autocratic all the time, or to praise a conservative for doing un-conservative things which they formerly opposed. Why give a medal for being the first conservative to cross the aisle? The united German state that Bismarck envisioned is not the German state that exists today, and it wasn't even the German state that existed until the 90s with the Second Unification. The fact that for most of the 20th Century, German was divided, partitioned, and had its territories subtracted, much of which can be seen as consequences of Bismarck's actions, makes one doubt how much of this can be ascribed to Bismarck and not to other factors. The current borders of the Oder-Neisse line was decided by Stalin for instance. And Germany would have become a powerhouse without Bismarck. The factors that led to that happening had nothing to do with him or his policies (such as Germany's large population). And even Germany's military victories, as this video proves, it was Moltke the Elder who planned the entire Franco-Prussian War, and without him, what would Bismarck have achieved, he would likely have lost to France, but he gambled well and he was lucky. Bismarck is a fascinating character but not an admirable one in any real respect. And his legacy and actual influence and impact is too burdened with propaganda, proverbs, and showmanship to get any real sense of that.
Sudarshan Ramani
2017-11-20 18:31:23 +0000 UTCPlus, Bismarck's legacy has pretty much survived in the existence of a united German state as the powerhouse of Europe and, weirdly, the progressive welfare state.
Joshua Rosenblum
2017-11-19 16:54:21 +0000 UTCJudging people by the longevity of his legacy is what we do for all leaders. Why give Bismarck a pass? The Germany that exists today would have no place or use for him. It's a Germany which is militarily defanged and subjugated by NATO, one where Prussian territories are permanently given to Poland, Czechosloavakia and other regions, where Prussia's name is mud. German Democracy always saw Bismarck as its enemy, as Max Weber articulated. He legitimized authoritarianism and if, as Ian Kershaw says, no Hitler no Holocaust...then we have to say that no Bismarck, no Hitler. World War I was not inevitable, in neither the form, scale, and dimension it happened...but to say that if Bismarck had stuck around things would be better/different is giving him way too much credit and utterly misreading his actions and the geopolitical situation of the 1880s-1910s. I haven't read Bulow's memoirs (I gather an ancestor to the guy from Reversal of Fortune) but I have read actual German historians who have done archival work since the '60s. At least in translation. The more important question to ask is if Bismarck was so smart, then why didn't he think of a way to unite Germany that didn't involve militarism, that didn't involve angering and destabilizing Europe, that didn't involve a foreign policy that was seen in its own time as being subversive, and devious, and not helpful to build peace.
Sudarshan Ramani
2017-11-18 22:45:02 +0000 UTCI think it's wrong to judge Bismarck by the longevity of his legacy, no one can know how the future would turn out. WW1 was not inevitable, and if it hadn't happened, I think we would be living in a world that is much more like Bismarck's design. If you want to have a smart man's perspective on how it all went to shit, I recommend the Memoirs of Prince von Bülow, which is a surprisingly entertaining read.
RTT12
2017-11-18 20:55:17 +0000 UTCI think the finale is good, I feel the series is overall too pro-Bismarck, but the finale does mention Imperial Germany extorting reparations from France which is generally not mentioned anywhere else. And I think you are correct about Bismarck not being able to concieve of anyone other than himself. He was an autocrat, a 19th Century Putin, who had no time for consensus and democracy. And ultimately Bismarck is an example of propaganda masking reality. Because almost nothing of what he did lasted. Alsace-Lorraine went back to France and remained with the French after the end of both World Wars, and it was German territory and German populations settled in Central and Eastern Europe who lost their land and were scattered and displaced back to Germany. The gentlemen who flew on the balloon is Leon Gambetta one of the founders of the French Third Republic. But I guess that's for Lies...to go into detail and footnote. The Franco-Prussian War and its aftermath is pretty tense and interesting and is worthy of an episode in its own right but that's for the voters to decide I am sure.
Sudarshan Ramani
2017-11-18 19:22:28 +0000 UTCBismarck's whole concept of good relations with Tsarist Russia was undermined by himself when he slow-dragged loans to Russia to help its industrialisation. Prussians feared an industrialised and developed Russia because it would exceed it in output and make any war against it unwinnable on paper. And that was why Imperial German planners started world war I to begin with, they wanted to do it before they had fully industrialized. Thanks to Bismarck alienating France, and being passive aggressive with Tsarist Russia, a French-Russian alliance took effect, more or less encircling Imperial Germany. So Bismarck is himself primarily responsible for World War I breaking out.
Sudarshan Ramani
2017-11-18 19:13:46 +0000 UTCThe French had every right to want revenge. Basically Imperial Germany built a wall and made France pay for it. And it's not surprising that the current POTUS's ancestor was born in Imperial Germany... An entire territory taken away by force, against the will of the people living there by a belligerent warmongering gang of proto-fascists. And I call them gang because Imperialist Germany was very much a mafia racket disguised as a geopolitical power. It extorted reparations from France that hampered its economy, took territory for them, and then when World War 1 ended they destroyed and tampered their archives and paid willing marks among Anglo-American historians about how everyone was jealous of Imperial Germany and that they were doing no wrong and so on. And I call them proto-fascists because that's who they were and ultimately became. World War I was provoked and started by Imperial Germany as its own historians (Fritz Fischer, Hans-Ulrich Wehler, Hans Mommsen) and others assert. The whole discussion of French revanchism is a red herring at best, and Prusisan apologia at worst.
Sudarshan Ramani
2017-11-18 19:10:41 +0000 UTCYou really don't need to be great at all to have that problem, it's just that the rest of the world isn't having much of a problem with your passing in that case...
Porcupine
2017-11-18 18:46:43 +0000 UTCGREAT! =) Also, didn't Bismack say something to Kaiser about "World ending in Balkans"?
Jaka Torkar
2017-11-18 13:47:15 +0000 UTCAwesome!
Kathyrne
2017-11-18 12:22:58 +0000 UTCYeah, we updated the armor. I... hope I got it right this time. Eesh. But at least it's not the lorica segmentata this time around, so if we're wrong again, we're being wrong in the direction of PROGRESS!
Extra History
2017-11-18 11:58:42 +0000 UTCToo much winning!
Extra History
2017-11-18 11:57:51 +0000 UTCAwww, thank you! This warmed my little heart. :) Thanks for joining us here on Patreon!
Extra History
2017-11-18 11:57:41 +0000 UTCOh yeah, we'd love to do it! We're not going to put it up for a vote immediately (these things need time to breathe) but if it goes up and you folks vote for it, we're game.
Extra History
2017-11-18 11:57:26 +0000 UTCI suppose it's easy to get so wrapped up in all the projects you have going that you forget the biggest long-term project of training a replacement...
Extra History
2017-11-18 11:56:04 +0000 UTCGuess not. :( Maybe if we come back to this war from the French perspective, we can talk about it!
Extra History
2017-11-18 11:50:06 +0000 UTCGranted, he also put up the dominoes.
Extra History
2017-11-18 11:48:37 +0000 UTCHaha, well, we'd love to follow this up with another series on the second half of Bismarck's life, but we'll see! It'd have to get voted on first.
Extra History
2017-11-18 11:48:29 +0000 UTCDidn't exactly work out for our boy Wilhelm though, did it? :\
Extra History
2017-11-18 11:48:04 +0000 UTCOh the tangled web we weave!
Extra History
2017-11-18 11:47:22 +0000 UTCI think that'd be a great idea series and if it gets voted in we'd be happy to do it!
Extra History
2017-11-18 11:47:07 +0000 UTCWatch this space. If you like shirts, there will soooooon be a shirt with those words. ;)
Extra History
2017-11-18 11:46:45 +0000 UTCYIPPEEEE ~ MORE ROMANS!!! Well Byzantines actually but you may want to look up Byzantine Armour and Equipment as I noticed your Bean Soldiers in the Justinian Series were a tad inaccurate.
Martin Verran
2017-11-18 11:40:11 +0000 UTCNext on the schedule is Khosrau Anushirawan, Shah of Iran and Rival of Justinian!
Extra History
2017-11-18 11:27:19 +0000 UTCFor you, should be ready every Friday at 10am Pacific!
Extra History
2017-11-18 11:26:23 +0000 UTCActually there is a Painting by Albert Bettannier Called La Tache Noire which is of a group of Schoolchildren being Taught about the "Lost Lands" of Alsace-Lorraine by a Teacher who is Pointing at the Provinces with his Stick and they are indeed coloured Black. And here it is. <a href="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/00/1887_Bettanier_Der_Schwarze_Fleck_anagoria.JPG" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/00/1887_Bettanier_Der_Schwarze_Fleck_anagoria.JPG</a>
Martin Verran
2017-11-18 09:52:03 +0000 UTCBismark was Charlie Sheen before there was a Charlie Sheen.
Michael Jebbett
2017-11-18 06:54:11 +0000 UTCI love this series I love you guys. Thank you all so much for all you do; it’s all just fantastic. I’m so glad I became a patron!
Chris Adams
2017-11-18 01:49:09 +0000 UTCAny chance of a second series covering the rest of Bismarck’s career like with Justinian?
Ryan Ulick
2017-11-18 01:26:30 +0000 UTCIt seems to be the singular flaw of great people to be unable to envision a world without them. Something that hearkens back to the series on Suleiman and the question of autocratic power.
Darren Loo
2017-11-18 01:15:04 +0000 UTCno mention of the Paris Commune? :(
Herkles
2017-11-17 23:24:12 +0000 UTCIt's sad. He was the only one who saw the dominoes in place, but was far too late to stop the downfall.
Levi Whitney
2017-11-17 22:55:27 +0000 UTCIf you check French maps from this period, they taught school children these were the lost lands. They were also colored black to really drive the point home.
Sean Sarff
2017-11-17 21:14:35 +0000 UTCA story for another time? Well I guess two years ago does count as another time.
Sean Sarff
2017-11-17 21:10:58 +0000 UTCEasy: he didn't want a strong Chancellor. Prinz Wilhelm and Bismarck were actually allies during the short reign of Friedrich III (son of Wilhelm I, father of Wilhelm II), a liberal, anglophile monarch whose reign was just a few months. Friedrich didn't like Bismark and had plans to dismiss him but never got the chance. Wilhelm II wanted clear leadership from the throne and a strong chancellor made that impossible. And as soon as he was Kaiser he really didn't need Bismark anymore, and started to undermine him until he was strong enough in his position to just dismiss him.
Jonathan Luoto
2017-11-17 20:35:28 +0000 UTCQuestion for Lies: What specifically lead Kaiser Wilhelm II to dismiss Bismarck?
Bryan (MightyAxeMan)
2017-11-17 20:26:16 +0000 UTCIIRC, Bismarck originally didn´´´´´ t want to get Alsace and Lorraine from France since it would make France want that land back. Moltke wanted that help defend Germany against France since the main French fortresses were in there. Also, Bismarck wanted that Germany would maintain good relations with Russia and Austria meaning that France would not be able to gain allies against Germany in continental Europe. Germany under William II thought that alliance with Russia wasn´ t necessary and decided not to continue alliance with Russia because William II and Nicholas II were cousins and that would be enough.
Petri Luosto
2017-11-17 19:14:27 +0000 UTCSpeaking of WW1, you may wanna make an episode (set) about the the whole "Balkan Troubles". After all, while the Seminal Tragedy episode pointed out 3 factors: Germany's Existance, Incompetant Leaders and Collapse of Empires; you failed to mention the nationalistic Balkan uprising, leading to Balkan War and other European powers sticking their noses in things that didn't concern them. That needs to be addressed, because Serbian hatred for Austro-Hungary came from more than "Prince visiting on a Special day".
Jaka Torkar
2017-11-17 18:34:40 +0000 UTCNicely done, y'all. I very much enjoyed every episode (and was very much looking forward to them). And I will not soon forget... "Bismark had a plan... Bismark ALWAYS had a plan..."
Kathyrne
2017-11-17 18:13:40 +0000 UTCAnd thus Bismarck has unwittingly set the Stage for the First World War. Although Bismarck ~ as discussed in the Previous Episode ~ had wanted to Impose Moderate Terms on the French so that they wouldn't be left hating Germany, the French turned out to be very bad losers and were left seething with Fury at their Humiliating Defeat at the Hands of a Country that was practically Brand-new. A new Political Ideology ~ "Revanchism," Literally, "Revenge-ism" would become Popular in France among Nationalists, Characterised by a deep Hatred of Germany and the Desire for another War against Germany in Order to Reclaim Alsace-Lorraine. Paintings Emphasising the Defeat came into high Demand, such as those by Alphonse de Neuville. Anyway, let's see who's next on the Schedule. Fingers Crossed it'll be Genghis Khan...
Martin Verran
2017-11-17 18:05:17 +0000 UTCPerfect timing, I was just about to check here for it. lol
Christopher Smith
2017-11-17 18:00:58 +0000 UTC
