Middle East: Odenathus - Ghosts of the Desert - Extra History

This is what I love about EH. I love hearing about history in general, but my schooling on it was pretty general, and honestly more of it focused on American and Western European history within the last few hundred years. Work and a hectic life kept me from pursuing my education further than I'd have liked. You guys bring unknown history to the unknowing mass, and make it relatable and understandable while making us want more because it's so interesting. Thank you for this little slice of history :)

The Cayute

Cant believe i never knew this guy. Thanks for teaching us good history lessons. Ya'll way better than any teacher out there.

Edward Kim

Love these history mini-episodes :D looking forward for more of them.

Arturo Gutierrez

I honestly don't know. Did the church suppress scientific lines of inquiry? Of course. But I think it's folly to automatically assume scientific progress would have been unabated if only for Christian Dogma. I covered the History of Medicine in school - one reason I'm looking forward to the Broad Street Pump - and one of the approved medical texts in Europe before the Renaissance was the writings of Galen, a Greco-Roman surgeon who came to prominence during the reign of Marcus Aurelius. Among other things, he advanced knowledge of anatomy through dissecting animals, such as demonstrating that nerves control muscle action, but his work is obviously flawed if you assume the anatomy of a pig is the same as a human's. He was limited by the taboo about dissecting human bodies, the same taboo that was still around in the Middle Ages. Indeed when writings of his were rediscovered calling for human dissection this laid the seeds for Vesalius and William Harvey to do it. Christianity failing to take root does not preclude taboos developing that hinder advancement. My detailed knowledge of Islam is limited, but I do know that they were influenced by Christianity. Jesus is a Prophet in the Quran, and his mother Mary is considered a paradigm of virtue. So again the faith may look quite different to how we know it. But the reasons it was able to spread so effectively are more earthly than you might think: In the decade before the Muslin Conquests, the Byzantine and Sassanid Empires fought their final devastating war, lasting 25 years and seeing the Sassanids nearly achieve their dream of taking all the old Achemanid lands, but Heraclius was able to push them back and restore the empire. If any victory can be considered Pyrrhic however, it was this one. Both empires were militarily exhausted, and unable to do much when this new force swept out of Arabia. It's to Heraclius' credit he was able to protect Anatolia from being overrun, because the Persians were completely conquered. To return to the point, Rome and Ctesiphon had been warring well before Christianity's ascendance, so I don't see its impact changing this. I'm also not 100% on the ratio of actual suppression to fortunes of the times. Sure, there was active suppression of pagan or heretical ideas, but you also have other factors, such as the decline in trade, even within the empire before it destabilised, so exchange of ideas was harder. Also as proto-feudalism took form after Diocletian's economic reforms, literacy decreased, so the post-imperial populus may not have realised what was being lost in old ruins. And I should note that the narrative of scientific loss is mainly a western one that discounts that Constantinople kept on trucking with stuff like this. The Heliocentrism debate is a juicy affair indeed, but dig a little deeper and, like the Crusades, it's more wrapped up in politics than scripture. Copernicus was the first real advocate, and he got little more than some criticism by hard liners, and the fact that nobody had the equipment needed to detect the Solar Parallax needed to prove it. Galileo's ordeal takes place in the backdrop of the reaction against the reformation, and in addition to Heliocentrism he had also been trying to reinterpret the bible, a challenge to Papal Authority. I'm not sure how to wrap this up, but to say that I'm pretty sure mankind would have found a way to interfere with the pursuit of knowledge without having to rely on the Gospels.

RMS Oceanic

Interesting points, Oceanic. But it's also worth pondering what would have happened after the fall of Rome if it didn't adopt Christianity. How would Islam have faired, assuming it would still exist? Would the knowledge of ancient philosophers would have still been lost or horded in monasteries? Would there have been such resistance to heliocentricism and other scientific research without the Catholic Church?

Jason Youngberg

Yeah Ostia was amazing. It was really cool being able to see the mosaics for the traders and store fronts. I'm really glad I took some time to go there

GrayMorality

Did you go to Ostia while you were there? I salute you. Most people don't realize it's there and they miss out on, in my opinion, one of the BEST experiences you can have in (or technically just outside) Rome.

Extra History

I do miss having 3 Dans!

Extra History

This was really interesting. I really love all the intricacies of the history of Rome (the city itself was probably the coolest place I ever visited). I would love to see some more of these shorter episodes on other events and people of Rome like the tragedy of Pompeii or even just the rise and fall of Ostia

GrayMorality

i like video and we need 1 more Dan

shadowolf

It's in Norway again! Silly Norway, always stealing our Lies! ::shakes fist::

Extra History

*Generally* the one shots won't have Lies episodes, but uh... keep an eye on your YouTube subscriptions/Patreon feed the next couple of days. ::whistles innocently::

Extra History

You sweetheart. ;)

Extra History

Good, because there's going to be more like this after the next series! ;D

Extra History

Those are very good words!

Extra History

Nah, I'm just an amateur enthusiast who drunk up every word Mike Duncan had to say on Rome.

RMS Oceanic

RMS, I'm enjoying your mini lectures on the Third Century Crisis! It is something you've studied formally, or perhaps a favorite period to research on your own? Anyway, Michael, the fall of the Roman Empire is a really interesting subject to talk about, and if you ever look closely at it you'll find out what a mess it is, historically. Like RMS points out, what's traditionally given as the date that the Roman Empire "fell" usually refers to the Western half of it - the Eastern Roman Empire continued for centuries. And even if you only look at the Western Empire's fall, it doesn't actually get easier, because so many of the states that cropped up in Europe sought to legitimize themselves by claiming a connection to Rome. Heck, remember the Turkish sultan Kilij Arslan that was bothering Alexios Comnenos in the First Crusade series? He called his empire the Sultanate of *Rum.* So that phenomenon isn't limited to the west, either. I once had a classics professor who enjoyed asking students to write an essay on when the Roman Empire fell, because he knew he'd get a different answer from pretty much everyone. His favorite argument, which he made for us in class as an example, was that Rome *never* fell, they just transferred the power of their institutions into the Church, which survives to this day and had a very direct hand in controlling Europe up until very recently.

Extra History

Hmm, Theodosius makes Christianity the Empire's Official Religion in 390, and a mere 1063 years later Constantinople is overrun! Even looking at the traditional fall of Rome, you give one factor of many too much credit. Christianity didn't cause the incessant inflation that undermined the Roman Middle Class and therefore tax base. It didn't encourage noble estates to pay as little taxes and offer as few conscripts as possible. It certainly didn't introduce the Antonine and Cyprian plagues which caused long term population and economic decline. No Missionary encouraged the Huns to displace the traditional inhabitants of Germania and force them into the Empire. The Gospels had no advice on how to handle these migrations, so Adrianople can't be laid at their feet. To be fair, attempting to assert Christianity had no role would be dishonest, but I think the Christian/Pagan tensions or Nicean/Arian tensions are overstated as a cause.

RMS Oceanic

Can't help but notice that Rome didn't last long after the adoption of Christianity. Coincidence? I think not.

Michael Jebbett

Fantastic little episode--I love this idea of filling in a gap with a mini-sode like this. :3

Amy Reynolds

Maybe we need Lies episodes for the one shots, too ;)

Stephen

Interesting! You know, I did wonder about that a moment - considering the troops were massacred, you wouldn't really expect the Persians to hang back and wait to capture the Roman emperor until later. There he is, with no army, so... get him.

Extra History

Odds are that yes, he's talking about the original king of kings - i.e. the Persians - which would be a fascinating series!

Extra History

That'ssss where the lies episode went

Jeff DigitalAirAire

King of kings, just like the newest hardcore history episode, haha. Haven't gotten to it yet, but he's probably talking about the Persians too

Jeff DigitalAirAire

EH was originally set up so that each series was to be four parts long, plus the lies video. With many of the series ending up at five or six parts, they re-oriented to assume six part series, plus lies. Since Admiral Yi is only five parts, they decided to do a bonus episode for a topic too short for a full series. I dunno about future bonus series, but for Odenathus there wasn't a vote.

RMS Oceanic

I love you very much

Martin Ockovsky

Im confused I joined Patreon in part to vote for the upcoming - was there something I missed?

Excellent episode. Just succinct enough to explain Odenathus' rule without having to explain the Crisis of the Third Century's combination of political instability and external threat. One nitpick though, more of an interesting fact really: You say Valerian was captured in a treacherous parley after the Battle of Edessa, and the Latin Record will back you up on this. However in the chaos of the Crisis, there are often two accounts of every event, and the truth is probably a third. Persian records have Valerian just captured during or just after the battle. We obviously will never know for sure, but it's interesting to think the Romans couldn't bear the shame of a captured emperor and had to justify it through Sassanid duplicity. This could also be projection, especially after the Emperor Caracalla's duplicity when dealing with the Parthians 45 years earlier.

RMS Oceanic

Yeah, it has nothing to do with the holiday - there was actually supposed to be a Lies episode this week for the Admiral Yi series, but James had to travel this week and so the episodes swapped places.

Extra History

An interesting choice for a non-intentional Halloween episode. But a good one none the less.

Zachary Taylor

That's part of the reason we wanted to talk about him. :( I think James still has more to say on the subject.

Extra History

Darnit I always miss something! Can we pretend like the historical errors are easter eggs and I leave them in there for you to find on purpose? D:

Extra History

I have not known of Odenathus at all and this episode shows his significance to European history. It's a pity to see Palmyra destroyed by the damn ISIS this year :(

Halil Köklü

The video shows the year of his death as 277 instead of 267.

Jorge