Attack on Titan 4x9 Reaction Extended (YT link below)

TBH Eren did say that if there was a way to save Paradis and it’s people even if he needed to sacrifice himself he is willing to do that

Dorney_Sunraint

Sir, this is a Wendy's

benj

I think the discussion about there being "no choice" is definitely a difficult one. While I do sympathize with the notion that great heroism comes with great sacrifice, and it's true that Armin and Eren do have choices they can make which might've been better, I don't think it's that simple either. Armin and Eren are two individuals with the power and influence to affect the direction and survival of their entire people, and that power is not expendable. The choices they make don't just affect them or the enemy, it also affects everyone else. You can make the argument that it's wrong what Eren did, and it certainly is from a moral perspective, but you can also make the argument that doing the opposite would have been much worse. If Armin and Eren laid down their arms and tried to maintain peace, that's them making the choice for all the people in the walls to die. That was the hypocrisy of the old Reiss kings: that they knew what was best for the people and thus made the decision for the whole group, and thought they had the authority to say that the Eldians didn't deserve to live (familiar?). Sure, they might've temporarily "protected" the people of the walls by erecting said walls, but they also did so by making sure their people lived in ignorance and had no freedom or agency, which you can hardly call just. They were completely at the whims of the king and had no ability to determine their own lives outside of the existing power structure. That's why every person who sought "freedom" out of curiosity or questioning was brutally suppressed (Armin's parents, Erwin's dad), and why it became taboo to talk about the world outside the walls. Eren does show a similar arrogance in thinking he knows the best course of action to take for all of humanity, but he has shed the arrogance of thinking that others do not deserve to live. He recognizes the Marleyans as humans just like him, and understands that if he and his people have a right to live, so do they. However, if someone tries to take away that right to live, he won't hesitate to do the same simply because he believes if he doesn't match them, he will lose his own right to live (this is actually sort of the tragic irony of his character, as he becomes exactly what he hated as a child, becoming someone who "doesn't deserve to breathe.") That said, I DO think the characters are making sacrifices here, though not the same sacrifices as before. Armin did sacrifice himself, his dreams, and his ideas and beliefs in the episode "hero" when he faced Bertolt, and that was done to save the other people in the walls. Erwin was the kind of man who (somewhat selfishly out of a desire to learn the truth), would willingly put his people at risk to move forward. Many of his gambles did so and at times ended inconclusively. It happened when he risked the lives of all the citizens in Stohess, and when he risked the lives of everyone in the city used to bait the Rod Reiss titan. One of those went well, one of them didn't, and hundreds of walldians died in that one. Unlike Erwin, Armin was never able to sacrifice other people before himself. He became a "hero" because he made the ultimate sacrifice, putting everyone else before himself as you described in terms of heroics. I view Eren's final metamorphosis as a sort of muddy cross between Erwin and Armin. Unlike Erwin and like Armin, Eren refuses to sacrifice his own people for his cause. And to his credit, sacrificing the lives of enemy civilians could be seen as more sympathetic/logical than sacrificing the lives of friendly ones like Erwin did. But unlike Armin and more like Erwin, Eren is willing to do terrible things for the sake of that protection, making himself the "villain" just as Erwin once did. Eren sacrifices his morality for what he sees as the greater good, which is his own people's survival. For people like Armin, this doesn't sit well because Armin is so idealistic. But something that Eren's character speaks to is the classic conundrum/hypocrisy of heroism: sacrificing the lives of people you care about just to selfishly maintain your own moral code or do what you believe is right. If you want to protect something, you need to be willing to make sacrifices. This is the same conundrum Aang faces when having to confront Ozai. Many people can and do reasonably think Aang is selfish for wanting to favor his own morals over doing what needs to be done, when his decision affects the lives of millions of people. If Aang wasn't able to defeat Ozai without killing him, and still chose not to, Aang effectively chose to let the Earth Kingdom die. But because he is a "savior"/"messiah" kind of character, Aang rises above that and finds a way to both save the world and keep his morals intact. However, he also takes and enormous risk when he does so, both to his own life, and the safety of the world since if he dies while trying to energybend, that's it, the world is done for. Eren's actions, while from a broad persective are morally despicable, from a micro one, he is more of a hero to his people than Erwin because he chose to protect his people over the people of an enemy nation. While Armin's goal is idealistic and morally correct, him favoring sparing the lives of enemy people out of a sense of moral desire also would put his own people (whom he is trying to protect) at extreme risk of being blown away by the Marleyan navy. So that's what I mean when I say that I think Armin and Eren are making sacrifices still. Sure, you can say that they did have a choice, and disagree with that choice, but you can't say they aren't sacrificing anything. Rather than choosing to sacrifice the people of the walls, they instead sacrifice their own souls, their own morals, and their own virtues to uphold what they want to protect. Eren never wanted to become a villain, but he also hated being a "hero" because it meant watching everyone he was trying to protect die for his sake: his friends, the other scouts, etc. All Eren ever wanted was to keep his people safe, and now he is doing that by, as Levi would say, "believing in his own power." Yes it's the arrogant choice, but it's also the one that has worked in the past. Though perhaps in a less noble fashion, Eren willingly adopts the role of a villain because he is willing to do anything to keep his people safe, except expend those said people. Like Erwin, he was willing to become a "villain" in the eyes of some in order to push towards a broader goal. But like Armin, he also refuses to sacrifice those he aims to protect and would rather sacrifice himself (think all the way back to when he saved Armin from a titan's mouth). While I agree with the notion that rising above your enemy to achieve your goals while still doing the right thing takes immense, often unattainable strength, I think it's wrong to say that what Eren does is the "weak" option. I don't think Eren was necessarily too weak to become a morally upholding hero, but that instead he was strong enough to endure becoming the villain when he felt like there was no other option. To sacrifice ones morals and commit terrible acts, that takes an incredible amount of strength and conviction in and of itself. Eren goes and does all of these horrible, incorrigible things so that the rest of his people don't have to, and must live with his actions for the rest of his life, just as Reiner and warriors did. It's interesting to me because, as the story shifts and Eren repeats the mistakes the warriors committed, many people find it easy to label Eren as an unforgivable monster, yet simultaneously begin to treat Reiner with more endearment as he cracks under the weight of the awful things he's done, despite those things being just as awful (if not more) than what Eren does. It makes me wonder why so many people are willing to give the warriors the benefit of the doubt when they are revealed in season 2, yet they don't extend that same courtesy to Eren. Yes, they have all done despicable things, but none of them are inherently despicable people by nature. Just as Goodwin says, even Eren has the capacity for great good despite his issues. Erwin's cause was certainly noble, but he was seen as the "villain" by commoners in the sense that he was one of the main forces essentially thinning their population to nothing due to his risky plans. Eren isn't able to be like that; we've seen since the beginning that he hates watching other people die for his sake. This has all been building up and coming together since the Female Titan arc. Eren is actually quite similar to Levi in regards to disliking death, and Levi is even where Eren gets his "moving forward" ideology from, as he internalized Levi's advice and took it to the extreme. Back then, Eren made a choice to trust in his comrades, and it gets Petra and all them killed. Then at the end of the coup arc, Eren chooses to change his decision and trust in himself and his power, and he succeeds in protecting his friends by generating crystal. This is what informs Eren's entire ideology and motivations going forward. Eren himself says that he isn't like Armin at the end of s3. He knows that he can't become the hero humanity needs, but Armin could because he has that virtue. Eren however is the one with the conviction and the power to change things. Eren says he and Reiner are the same because they are both willing to do unspeakable things to protect what they care about. If they have to become hated by the entire world, so be it. Eren becomes the "evil" he detested certainly, but another way of viewing it is that the "evil" Reiner and the others committed was also a great sacrifice and burden for them. Likewise, Eren is willing to bear the same burden. He becomes the "devil" that paradis needs to survive: a sacrificial lamb who bears all the sins and hatred of the Eldians onto himself so they can keep living, while he faces the threat alone. And that takes INCREDIBLE strength. Maybe not strength of character, but strength of will no doubt, so that's why I disagree with the notion that nothing is being sacrificed. It's just that what's being sacrificed is different. This is why I love how much the idea of perspective matters in this show. We see Eren as a villain for sacrificing his morals and killing enemy civilians, and yet we as viewers align with Erwin as more righteous despite the fact that he was willing to sacrifice the very thing he was supposed to be protecting: the walldians. Eren and the scouts essentially bear the burden of any military, though to an extreme degree: they do all the less-than-ideal deeds, the killing, the suffering, and dying so that the people back home don't have to. It begs the question, what is truly morally right? Shouldn't it make sense that the people of the walls hate someone like Erwin who, though he acts righteously, sacrifices countless friendly lives, and love someone like Eren, who refuses to budge a single inch in letting Marley keep the advantage? This is a tricky question, because this is exactly what happens with tyrants in the real world and throughout history who are worshiped by their people for their ability to unflinchingly wipe out any enemy threat, often at the cost of any semblance of morality and often against foreign peoples who aren't exactly evil. And yet at the same time, it sounds logical to favor your own people over an enemy people who want you gone. And in Eren's case, there really IS a humongous threat about to bear down on them and leave them completely in the dust. They aren't the superpower here, they are a tiny, vulnerable, underdeveloped nation centuries behind in technology, government, and tactics. If you take medieval Europe and place them against Nazi germany, Europe isn't going to have a great time. Eren is definitely a villain for what he chooses to do, but I think the more important question is: is he being a villain for a good reason? Can he seem justified from a certain lens? This is what I think Eren means when he says he had "no choice." The scouts aren't doing these heinous acts just to oppress people, but because they saw no other options that would favor them. That's what makes it so compelling. I think that's sort of something that Goodwin is misunderstanding about the phrasing "no choice." Of COURSE there was always a choice, Eren and Armin and everyone all had choices in the matter, and those choices will be based on differing values. But when Eren or Armin say that they had "no choice," they don't mean it literally. They mean it in the sense that, logically, the choice they took made the most sense at the time, or that the choice was obvious. Eren had "no choice" in the sense that choosing to sacrifice his own people would go against his very nature and what he values, so it was almost predetermined that his choice would be to sacrifice his morals and the Marleyan civilians instead. Eren and his people not surviving or achieving freedom doesn't even register as a potential option in his head, because to him, it's a no-brainer. Getting to live is non-negotiable. There never was a reality where he yields or tries to make peace with Marley: it was always either you leave us alone, or you die. In s3, Armin made the choice to try and reason with Bertolt, which then led to Hange squad getting killed. So when Armin says they had "no choice," that also applies to his values. Armin did make a choice in trying to be reasonable and talk things out, but that choice was rejected. When Bertolt had already made up his mind to kill all the scouts, Armin and the others were forced to fight back and attempt to kill him and Reiner, because again, "dying" is not a choice the scouts (or any logical human being) can reasonably entertain. When you want to live, and someone kills you, there is no choice there. Not for the victim. You had your choice(freedom) taken away from you. On the island, Hange, Mikasa, Armin, Levi, and everyone were looking to take the idealistic route without an idea for what they were getting into: while Eren's genuine concerns of a massive, looming threat coming to annihilate his people were never properly addressed or listened to (this actually reminds me a lot about when Eren was so determined to join the scouts, and everyone else called him crazy or blew him off). With no one like Erwin around, who likely would've heard out his concerns and cooperated with Eren towards a better solution, Eren becomes restless and decides to take matters into his own hands before he fears the worst will happen. From his perspective, the rest of the scouts were sitting on their hands and burying their heads in the sand at the idea of facing Marley without losing their humanity, and he concluded he couldn't rely on them anymore. Eren himself didn't want this either. He, just as Armin does, wishes there was a perfect, ideal solution where they can beat back Marley without becoming villains themselves. But Eren is also too realistic to see that as coming true, and is able to shed that vision to take action. He sheds his humanity to create change. In his time waiting during the time skip, Eren realizes that they can't afford such heroism (at least in his eyes). Armin and Eren both agree in this episode: they had no time. To come up with a solution that was morally okay, they needed time to shift the hearts and minds of the Marleyans, and diplomatically elevate Eldians in the eyes of the world as normal people and not devils. But they didn't have that time: both in the sense that Marley was at their doorstep, and the sense that Zeke, one of their only viable options for defense or a counter attack, was to be dead in three years. Without using Zeke's plan before the time limit (even if it was less than ideal), Eren would've had to sacrifice Historia (turning her into a titan and shortening her life span) and likely also sacrifice many other friends and comrades using a different, more "heroic" solution. Which while it might've been more heroic, it would've also likely led to the deaths of most of the people he wanted to protect. After all, if he couldn't even do that, then what is he fighting for? Eren has always fought for his ideal: the prospering and freedom of humanity within the walls, even since when the threat was the titans and not Marley, and he hasn't gone back on that. Titans or other humans, it doesn't make a difference to him. Eren lived his entire life as a scout watching people die for his sake, when he always wanted it to be the other way around. And when push came to shove and he finally got the power and authority to make that switch, he did. Like Levi always said: you can never know if the decision you make is the right one, or if you won't regret it in the end. You just have to make the decision you think you'll regret the least at the time, and move forward without looking back, because otherwise, the choices you've made will destroy you. Was Levi's decision to let Erwin die the wrong one? Maybe. Who's really to say? But what matters is that the choice was made and now Levi has to run with it. The same thing applies here. Armin is right in that maybe there was another, better path they could've taken, but that's not where they are. What's the truth? What is right? Sitting pacified like the old Reiss kings, who welcomed their deaths simply because of sins of the past and the hatred of the world? Or fighting till your last breath when an enemy hellbent on destroying you won't give in? Neither are an ideal solution, but the latter is an understandable reaction to the former. We like to say Eren is evil because he prioritizes his own small group of people over the lives of every other human on the planet, but isn't that human nature? And is it not evil to say that the rest of humanity around the world should survive solely because they have a numbers advantage, when they are all effectively Nazis who want to eradicate a whole race from the earth? Both sides can be construed as either equally evil or justified, and that's what's scary about it. The scouts were faced with an impossible situation with no good solutions that wouldn't lead to their demise, just as they have been time and time again. The scouts didn't want to kill Reiner and Bertolt, and they could've chosen not to, but because their lives were on the line, they felt forced to commit an act they disagreed with. We already saw after the battle that even Erwin and the scouts have their limits. Nearly all of them died, and Erwin was at the end of his rope for still moving forward when their forces had been so decimated. It wasn't an unreasonable fear to think that humanity would'nt go extinct because of the titans or their enemies first, but because they were sacrificing so much of themselves for the cost of freedom. (Think of what grisha said: "if I'd known this was the cost of freedom, I wouldn't have paid it." Countless leaders before Eren had sacrificed thousands of Eldian lives in the struggle against Marley's oppression and tyranny. and had always paid the price for it while gaining back little. Erwins philosophy and tactics certainly made progress, but how long could such methods be used before the walldians no longer had any bodies left to throw at them? Even by the battle of Shiganshina, you could see Erwin and the scouts forces had been worn thin, a shell of what they used to be. They sacrificed everything to get where they were, but to what end? Erwin's biggest doubt was always whether ot not it would be worth it in the end, whether or not he could justify the level of death he caused for an unknown goal. The walldians can't win a war of attrition against the rest of the world, and Eren knew that. He wasn't going to keep playing that game. In Eren's twisted eyes, this IS the only way to end the ongoing cycle, the only way to keep of the people of the walls from losing everything at every risk they take. The Marleyans made him out to be the ultimate villain of the world, and if that's the way they wanted it, he was willing to play the part. When faced with the dilemma of either annihilate the enemy or be annihilated yourself, Eren made his choice. He became a devil so that humanity could survive, even if it meant losing himself in the process.

Jordan Runner

He just looks like a scruffy hobo most of the time lol

Polygon

I love how Zeke is this revered war chief as a titan but as a human he always seems a bit aloof and confused. He's a really cool character. Also I like your haircut!

Lulu

She said meat, nothing related to Niccolo at all. Same as the manga, had nothing, 0 relation to him. Meat has been one of the recurring things with Sasha along with Potatoes for a decade. It was meat.

cheera

Interesting side note: On Sasha's last breath, she says "meat", which is pronounced "nicc-u" in Japanese. It's meant to be interpreted that way at first, but in this episode, we meet a character that was close to her, "Niccolo", whose name can also be abbreviated as "nicc-u". I think what she says in her last breath is meant to be ambiguous and up for interpretation.

AJ

I for one am NOT with Eren on this. F**k Gabi tho 🤪

Santos Luna Ramirez

I'm not spoiling the ending but those same fans have turned on the author because of it. Disgusting.

ArmdVctr

I 100% agree with your analysis, especially on the writer's intention of leading audiences to take certain sides(mostly Eren's). Once you allign yourself with a side it's so easy to justify any action with sophistry like there is no other choice and the enemy is responsible for everything there is to come. It's made pretty clear all throughout this season that there are no right sides, only endless cycle of hate. Yet interestingly so many people are willing to blindly support and justify the darker "Chad Eren" in the name of self-defense, or how some people immediately hate on Gabi when she's basically a girl version of young Eren born on the other side. Even though it's a little frustrating, at the same time it really just shows the genius of the writer and how good this show is.

CK

As you have mentioned the show is very meta and fully knows/leads the audience down a path to not only pull the rug out from under them but look them in the eyes and make them realize their hypocrisy. Every concern you have for the writing/message that this show perpetuates is intentionally done by the author and gets addressed in some way shape or form down the line. And because of that I believe this is one of the best manga ever written.

Brad

this ‘no choice’ argument is something i’ll never understand. the conclusion of the eren/reiner conversation is both of them admitting they DID have a choice and it’s ultimately selfish. eren does not believe he’s being forced into this by other factors, they only affect his opinion on the situation as a whole. everything he does is with the understanding that at the end of the day, the final straw, is that he is the one doing this and making these choices. isayama paints a very bleak picture but he’s very careful to NEVER rob perpetrators of agency. what gabi did was her choice ultimately, what jean did by throwing the TS was his choice, armin blowing up the port etc all the way back to erwin and some of the more questionable actions. imo it’s been one of the key points in the portrayal of war, there ARE other paths available, whether a character is too molded by their own flaws to believe those paths are truly feasible (and even whether they’re right about that) is another matter. i find it so funny because the poster boy of the ‘there’s no choice’ argument (eren) doesn’t even believe this himself and if he did he’d be a far less compelling character.

armando

I still believe that had a choice what's to say they needed to go to war or use Zeke at all they could of had more time

Admittedly lobster is sort of a hassle to eat so maybe she's on to something haha

Alex G

Great reaction and analysis as always! The way I see Eren- and this is in no way justifying his actions- is a product of the world’s hate. As we’ve seen throughout the show, the majority of the world hates Eldians and the people of Paradis, and Eren is the product of that hate. I feel like it’s a cautionary tale about hate, and the centuries of hate have all culminated in this disaster child who destroys buildings full of civilians. Eren is not really a victim in this case either if we’re looking at it this way, but the consequence.

QuillerKeen

Interestingly, on the topic of choice I think this is one of the biggest factors in whether or not one actually HAS a choice: The knowledge that choices even exist, or similarly knowledge of where certain choices lead and therefore a greater knowledge of the choices themselves. With that in mind, a few things: - It's sort of easier to forgive the young or inexperienced than it is those who make a terrible choice knowingly. - A potential answer to this dilemma is to treat everybody as having responsibility always. While that's not a perfect solution and certainly isn't the full truth, my hope would be that it creates the maximum awareness and allows people to get off whatever railroad tracks they are born on as early as possible so that they can make their own choices rather than be dictated by momentum and their pasts.

Alex G

Haha love you too. Of all the sides in this show, one I didn't anticipate is being allied with Floch as my hair brother.

Alex G

Thanks! I think it's basically impossible to always know what the right course of action is and so I don't blame them for making what they feel is their best choice at any given moment, but there are always choices. And I think that typically the thought that "this is a TERRIBLE choice ethically but the best pragmatically," probably means it's the wrong choice for a whole assortment of reasons. Alternatively, sometimes the best answer is to do nothing and to wait. Or to choose personal harm over doing something that feels like an atrocity. It's impossible to always get it right, but hopefully there is something like a set of guidelines or process of refinement that is aimed at things like doing the least harm long term, or something along those lines.

Alex G

This is a baseless fan theory that was debunked years ago. In the raws for the manga, the kanji for "Niku", meat (肉) appears in Sasha's speech bubble. She wasn't trying to say Niccolo. On top of that, the the Japanese pronunciation for "Niku" and "Niko (ro)" are different and if you speak Japanese it's easy to hear.

Polygon

Definitely and I think that makes it way more realistic, useful, interesting, etc. What you said about seeing parts of yourself in him resonates with me strongly. I think that is one extreme of two very important elements in stories that work well together: One is something like an ideal to aspire to and the other is pitfalls that we all could easily fall into with just the slightest move in the wrong direction.

Alex G

Perhaps they all had a choice, but the situation Eren and the squad are in means they basically have the power to make the choice for the entire population of Paradise. If Eren decides to not fight, they all die. If Armin doesn't go and help Eren, paradise dies. Do either of them really deserve to make the choice to be "good" and let not only themselves but the entirety of paradise die. I mean they could have a vote on the island except if there are any spies, it would spoil the incoming attack.

War2244

Eren shoots the gun then it transitions to sasha. We already know eren is responsible, maybe this was the shows way of showing us that armin holds him responsible for her death too, seeing as it was his memories we were watching.

Jack Cas

Eren truly didn’t have a choice. You will see the truth one day. TATAKAE

Sean Carroll

lol same its great

Brimmy

it seems really weird to have this flashback \after\ Sasha's death i wonder what they were thinking when planning the eps out granted i stopped when Season 2 was announced...prolly before i got to the beast titan chapter? its been years though and i've watched so many people watch the anime....so i don't know if that's how the manga went or not also once again THAT'S NOT HOW U EAT LOBSTER SASHA LMAO

Brimmy

I am 110% behind the Erwin fanboying. I am on that boat. I'm taped to the front, adorned as a glorious boat head ornament, shouting SASAGEYO! with each breath.

Nick Deano

Favorite analysis so far!

keyton bush

I actually don't think values are universal, hence so much turmoil we see to this day. In the Eldian's case, it's a matter of whether they value the survival of their people over the world or vice-versa at this point. Armin's view of diplomacy would be the ideal, but like they acknowledged: they need more time (a luxury they don't have considering the strict timeline before Zeke - their only deterrent aside from Historia - dies). The world declared war on Paradis before any of the atrocities Eren committed, they're far more technologically advanced and populous. I think this shows us how awful war is, rarely is there a right side. I even wonder what Erwin would have done... his decisions were far less morally grey - they were fighting what they believed to be monsters trying to destroy the rest of humanity. It's easier being a hero then, his heart, while heavy, remained pure because his decisions were to risk self and troops to save humanity or risk humanity by preserving self and troops (oversimplification as Erwin was in every way heroic). Eren's choices mainly consist of whether he should risk destroying the rest of humanity to save his people or sacrifice his people for the rest of humanity. Diplomacy can't work due to the views of the world and innate threat Eldians pose, neutrality/inaction isn't an option since they're being targeted, so deterrence seems the most promising choice, showing strength to deter attacks, hence the rumbling and the attack on Marley. I in no way justify civilian casualties, to be clear, but people say there was another way. There were - but I don't see one where the Eldians can survive. What could they have sacrificed to stay on a more righteous path? They're entire people? They needed to take the fleet out, mess up the military structure (killing the top brass), take Zeke and remove the Warhammer titan from the equation just to be on equal grounds.

JDalsing

Great analysis once again! I was reminded of the "teaching emotion" from Edward Albee play, The Zoo Story. The main cast from Erwin's corps show a more reasonable view and seem to understand the weight of their actions because they haven't just learned about it but seen it for themselves on both sides. On the other hand, when Gabi maintained her beliefs because she didn't see it herself, she can represent the other side including the new Paradis corps who haven't faced the same reality. The problem then is that it's only after all this suffering and exposure that people can actually gain a greater perspective of their own actions and the actions of others. Edited to note: it's been a while since I studied American lit so take everything with a grain of salt

Jaime

Has NO ONE mentioned that Sasha might have been trying to say Nicolo at the end of last episode??? Instead of "niku" for meat, it could have been Nicolo's name she was trying to say 🥺🥺🥺. Also really appreciate your understanding of the nuances here. All I could think about when this season was airing was how much I miss my blonde daddio Erwin.

KJ Gaona

I just noticed Alex has the Floch haircut so it's making me angry every time i notice lol. Love you Alex.

Ramon Cintron

Yup, one thing frustrates me a lot is why people after watching this show can still be so blood lust and want everyone go die except eren and his supporters. Choosing a side is easy, we should do better than that.

lilmarsha

Great analysis, Alex! I have a question. Any situation has a number of constraints, be it time or resources or information. For the many choices that we can take, sometimes these can fall outside these constraints. Even analyzing wholly, which choices are the best, takes time. So won’t you say that when characters here say that they only have one choice is because they acknowledge these constraints that these choices pose, and hence are usually limited to the most straightforward path of action?

Paul

I think what myself and many others mean when we say "Eren is sympathetic" or "he's thinking of things more clearly than he used to" is in NO WAY to say that he is justified, or that I'm rooting for him. The biggest pain for me watching this season was watching Eren spiral into the darkness like this, since we've seen brief moments of clarity, where, if this were a different story, could've very well have been his turning point onto the path of light. Examples being when he said "We can do this together, we are free" in the Return to Shiganshina arc, or when he reflected on his faulty worldview in the battle against Rod Reiss' Titan. I think the best villains are those who ARE sympathetic, or relatable, or understandable on some level, since that opens the door for us to more fully explore the meaning of their actions, instead of just writing them off as "pure evil" and not looking any further into their character as a result. That's what I mean when I say Eren is sympathetic. Not that he's justified, or I'm rooting for him to carry out his goal of violence, but that I can see parts of myself in him, and the very real danger of real people in my life falling into the same traps he has. I hope I explained this well enough lol

Steve.

I would argue heroism is the ultimate form of humanity. It's a culmination of the better aspects that make us human, like a distillation of them. I get where you're coming from, but to me heroism is something to strive for. You don't have to fully embody traditional ideas of it either, it can be a good guideline in life at times. Some motivations and actions tied to ideas of heroism are so popular for a reason. Edit: I could see how someone might say it's far from humanity because the ideal embodiment of heroism is someone who isn't flawed at all, but that's not how most people measure heroism anyway. It usually has to do with motivations and individual actions. You can display heroism while still being flawed, that's human. Idk if this makes any sense I might just be talking out of nowhere

Nick

Haha speaking of arcs...

Alex G

Thank you for saying so! I really appreciate that. Like I said or maybe alluded to in the video, what's really important here? Being able to talk about things with great people in a place where I truly can see people have good intentions means more to me than anything in any fictional world ever :D

Alex G

Yea in my rewatch and paying real attention to the things that Reiner and Eren say to each other, I definitely think that Eren has come to the conclusion that the things he is doing/plans to do are evil, but he will do them anyway. But he is justifying his actions to himself, even if he doesn't think that they're just in terms of the conflict at large or international law or whatever (maybe he doesn't think he's doing the right thing, but he's decided that the "wrong thing" is the right thing for him to do). And I think that in this situation, people like Reiner-who-attacked-Trost and Eren-who-attacked-Liberio are just as justified as the other, which is either fully if you subscribe to the "our-situation-left-us-no-choice" mentality or not at all if you think there's a higher code to be followed. But at any rate, self-awareness that one is committing what one believes to be evil does not mean that that person is any better of a person. In some ways I think that, if the knowledge of what you are doing and the ability to either enact or not enact it is critical to the idea of wrongdoing, the fact that people like Eren or Reiner viewed what they were doing as wrong but chose to do so anyway for selfish reasons makes them more, not less, culpable. What Eren pretty much is saying then is 'yeah I'm a bad guy, but I'm fine with that because it's for XYZ reasons.' I think that sucks and I think it's cowardly, especially considering he is the most powerful person alive. But what's most frustrating with Eren is that I don't expect him to have all the answers, or to know the way forward, or to have the strength all alone to make the tough but less harmful decisions. He needs to lean on his friends for the Scouts and come up with answers to these difficult questions together. But instead he's been shutting them out, stringing them along, and taking things upon himself to impose his view of how things should be on everyone else.

a. tree

I only hope when you say there is a better choice you can be more specific or it will make you sound judgy and arrogant and your speech about how you are not better is of no use because Eren gave the same speech and you find him arrogant. By the way it is actually really funny you did exactly the same thing with how Eren debut into this season. And I finally understand your critics and where they come from. You are expecting heroism the whole time. But I am more convinced that generally heroism is the furthest thing from humanity and art by itself. not gonna elaborate, just a thought.

Jiao

That's a really good question. As much as I love Erwin, it's possible that it would play out the same way, since in order to do what he did you need a superhuman level of commitment, and with his purpose basically spent I'm not sure how long he could have endured. But at the maximum level of optimism about his character being able to continue transcending the normal limits, I would say he would fight until the end in a similar way but without crossing certain lines, even if that meant his own end and even if the next step was always unclear moment to moment (as was very much his style: "make the choice you think is best at the moment").

Alex G

When I originally watched I thought he was obliterating the people on the ships. Only after rewatching did I notice that no, he's literally blowing up near them to force them to shore lol. I thought he was straight up murdering soldiers for weeks.

Nick

Indeed you are on the mark. It is easy to get caught up in revenge and nationalism. A part of us had glee at the attack on Marley by the scouts but the creator of the show balances it with the death of a beloved character before they go home on their victory lap.

Gabe A

Well now I feel the need to try making my points more clear. In the previous episodes comment i talked about choice. I never meant to say Eren didn't have a choice, I agree you almost always have a choice. What I was trying to say is, a lot of people and even Alex are talking about justification, can you justify doing horrible things if it is for a greater goal and all that stuff. But I don't think Eren thinks his actions are justified, and i don't think he is thinking that he is the right one. I think it is just about his choice, not that he doesnt have any other choice, he chose to go to these lenghts for his and the people he cares abouts survival. I think that when we're deciding on our actions, the process of weighing out the options and our willingness to choose something is not the same of justifying our action. It is like Alex's quote this video, he said that he wouldn't have been able to do the right thing, despite him being clearly not fond of Eren's actions or even his way of thinking. Someone willing to do something is not equal to them thinking it is the RIGHT thing or them thinking it is justified. You can do terrible things knowing it is terrible. And I just want to say, the reason I am kinda defending Eren in these last comment sections is not because I am an Eren fanboy or I think him repeating the tragedy is justified. I just feel like there is a lot of people here that, because of their distaste from people blindly siding with Eren and the scouts and hate Gabi etc , completely swing to the other side and think that Eren is a villian. Which is in my opinion falling victim to the same trap as the other side.

Mert

The Office style mockumentary, except it's focused on the scouts going about their lives. Their very, very short lives. The dunder mifflin branch in Shiganshina, Paradis. (Scranton Pennsylvania) Edit: Also that's a great detail mentioning what Levi said in season 1.

Nick

Unfortunately lots of people completely missed the points that this season was trying to convey. They took sides and didn't realize that this whole season was written to show that there was no "good" or "bad" sides, just people making tough choices in a cruel world.

Obito

TATAKAAAA

Christopher Fields

I love the subtle moment when Zeke asks about Gabi and Falco and Levi gives him this super-irritated glare. It's super quick, but it was totally a "don't-even-try-to-bullshit-me" look. These are the kids that Zeke almost had killed just a few days earlier in Marley as part of his plan — if Reiner didn't have quick reflexes, Falco would have been squashed by Eren in the basement, and if Gabi had switched seats with Zofia, she would have been the one under that boulder. Zeke doesn't give a hoot what happens to those kids, and Levi knows this — it's so disingenuous of Zeke to pretend like he does that it's actually sickening to Levi. I think it really helps to draw the contrast between these characters who are near-complete opposites in their values. Levi is all about loyalty and supporting his comerades; Zeke let Pieck and Pock be brought to the brink of death protecting him in a fake fight. All the way back in Season One, Levi reminds Erwin that he "hates causing pointless deaths." Zeke, meanwhile, has not only slaughtered innocents and soldiers alike on Paradis (while making a game out of it), but with this latest act, in his own hometown. Zeke doesn't seem to care about excessive loss of life on either side of the sea. Just on a basic level, Levi takes everything seriously, while Zeke treats even the most grave topics with levity. So even when Zeke turns on Marley to supposedly help Paradis, his methods are completely abhorrent to Levi, and every interaction of theirs is increasingly grating because it reinforces the fact that one has a super strong moral code and the other seemingly has none. Long story short, we need a spin-off sitcom starring Levi and Zeke. It would be a hoot to watch.

a. tree

He's also a fan of game of thrones/a song of ice and fire which explains all the deaths too LMAO I mean, to be fair the deaths fuel character development and set the tone in AOT which is better than some shows

Nick

Your commentary on this episode was spot on, can't lie. You've been through a lot of character development I see.

Based on things you've said about being the adult in the room, there's one character I think you'll really appreciate in a few episodes.

Anders Pike

I Just like to say and i know i don't speak for every one but I appreciate this community and yourself Goodwin for the type of community you have fostered and the discussions around this anime series. I personally myself have strong feelings about Marley and how I feel they are responsible for the evilness of this show. Especially when people always forget they are continuing the subjugation of a group of people merely based on their race and as some one who has dealt with racism first hand because of being mexican this really has fueled my anger for marley. But the way you articulate yourself and the way you present your thoughts is why i choose to keep watching your content and support you because you are a hell of a teacher even if you aren't a teacher anymore so please give your self some credit hehe. But for real man great content as always and I love hearing you talk about these things. It also helps drive my own passion for the humanities and philosophy.

John Carrizales

Yo. This man gets it. Such a breath of fresh air in the fandom that has literally been mired in vitriol for the better part of the last 2 years.

Paris Hardy

Great reaction. My only comment is to point out that Armin said it was 'fun' back then, because back then, they weren't killing anyone. He was just helping take Marleyan ships, and maybe give them a bit of a scare. But he's too sweet to feel that way now, even with his little sociopathic streak we've seen occasionally throughout the seasons.

Maia Brodsky

1. I think it's worth noting that Isayama was allegedly a fan of Breaking Bad, a show where the writer purposefully made the main character more and more vile and harder to argue for his goodness. 2. Another thought just occurred to me or maybe I just haven't really dwelled on it, on the concept of freedom in this show -- the mindless titans. How they've been robbed of their freedom. A never-ending nightmare, as Ymir described it. Essentially dead unless they managed to eat one of the 9 main titans. And even then they don't choose to eat them, they eat indiscriminately. Do they want that power? Armin was ready to accept his death, but someone else chose to revive him. Now he lives with the burden of his titan power.

Kotryna

You always talk about Erwin and I ask myself, If Erwin was chosen, what would change?

Gabriel Ribeiro

Knowing the ending of the show and everything before that, it will be very interesting to see how you react to what's coming not even in the later episodes of Part 1, but also Part 2. I'm very excited to see what you think of Eren in Part 2, as the definitive climaxes of the story are there and really take the plot to a whole new level. For manga reference, specifically when chapter 123 and 131 are adapted to animation. Absolutely dying to see the choices made for the final part of the anime and people's reactions to it.

Christian Medeiros

Hahaha I know right I legit said “that’s what she said”

hays collins

God I love this show. The only show that matches the same writing genius Is ATLA

hays collins

"When I touched my stepmom" LOL terrible wording

R'Mani Leavell

I love that "The only way to win is to fight. Fight. Fight!" line at the end, calling back to the first time Eren and Mikasa met and Eren told those words to Mikasa. Those words that inspired her to keep on living when she almost gave up after Eren's supposed death. But you can hear the difference in tone, in voice. "Tatakae" originally being screamed in a crisis situation, now being quietly and stalwartly repeated in the mirror.

Jo

What I mean is: Eren is literally their trump card. But he's a free thinking trump card, not a mindless weapon. The scouts can't control him.

Nick

Ugh I agree so whole heartedly with you. Why do people take sides this season. I was shocked at first but I quickly saw the genius in this season of making it morally grey for everyone. People are like “I hate Eren” or “I hate Gabbie”. It’s like shut up and watch the show and enjoy it for what it is. Amazing writing

hays collins

To be fair, characters like Armin still believe that there are other options to save Eldians. The event in Marley with Eren was tying their hands. Armin, Mikasa, Jean, Connie, etc. You can tell they're still holding onto different ideas and options, whereas Eren did become a rogue agent. So it's not as though they've abandoned those ideas by being convinced by Eren's "there is no choice" justification. It's more like Eren took a huge action and they had to act immediately.

Nick

"It's amazing she's still alive". That's because she had Moblit with her every step. Now she's in real danger I'd say

SirLagginton

Good timing, I just got back from my course.

SirLagginton