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QAnon Anonymous
QAnon Anonymous

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Wild Faith feat. Talia Lavin (E303)

The election of Donald Trump means that the Christian right expects to have even more political influence than they did before. That might be bad news for those of us who don’t believe worldly events are merely the byproducts of a transcendent spiritual battle of good vs. evil.

To better understand the philosophy and goals of American theocrats, Travis and Jake spoke to Talia Lavin, author of Wild Faith: How the Christian Right Is Taking Over America. We explore her research into how rightwing evangelical Christians have worked to become a powerful constituency over past five decades, the modern-day prophets and apostles who drive the movement, the Christian Patriarchy movement which justifies the subjugation of women and the abuse of children, and why extremist Christians so easily became online conspiracy theorists.

It's challenging subject matter which is made more palatable by Talia’s deep knowledge and Jake making an overextended metaphor about eating moldy bagels. 

Talia Lavin on Bluesky

https://bsky.app/profile/swordsjew.bsky.social

Wild Faith: How The Christian Right Is Taking Over America by Talia Lavin

https://bookshop.org/p/books/wild-faith-how-the-christian-right-is-taking-over-america-talia-lavin/21057649

Thanks for subscribing to QAA on patreon.

Editing by Corey Klotz. Theme by Nick Sena. Additional music by Pontus Berghe, Nick Sena, Jake Rockatansky. Theme Vocals by THEY/LIVE (https://instagram.com/theyylivve / https://sptfy.com/QrDm). Cover Art by Pedro Correa: (https://pedrocorrea.com)

https://qaapodcast.com

QAA was known as the QAnon Anonymous podcast.

Wild Faith feat. Talia Lavin (E303) Wild Faith feat. Talia Lavin (E303)

Comments

Love Talia! Can’t wait to listen to her book

Ruki Kurukulasuriya

The European Wars of Religion have actually served me well in this case, as I'm culturally Catholic, so I get a lot of mileage out of squinting downwards, and muttering about Protestant shenanigans, and how adherence to sola fide is an excuse to get out of community accountability and service via Good Works. (It's downward squinting not out of a moral positioning, but a geographic one, as I am Canadian, and from Eastern Ontario, not Southern, and therefore the whole Lower 48 are in a jortsward direction.)

Madeline Hunter

I just found finished my hard copy. Wow. So so good. Deeply alarming, even for someone like me who thought i knew a good deal about Xian nationalism, but incredible and eye opening work by Talia.

Daniel Reed Miller

Thanks for reminding me of that line! Fabulous!

Siân

Whoa, that’s crazy! I’m in New Zealand so I’m going to ask around to see if that happened/happens here…

Siân

Sorry, I’m new here 🤦🏽‍♀️ It’s called The Dawn of Everything: A New History of Humanity by David Graeber and David Wengrow

Siân

https://books.google.co.nz/books/about/The_Dawn_of_Everything.html?id=X8gZEAAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=kp_read_button&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&gboemv=1&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false

Siân

Do either of you know about this book or David Graeber? He’s one of my all time favourite authors and it’s so sad that he passed away as I think an anarchist anthropologist is just what we need right now

Siân

I listened to the audiobook and I loved it!

Siân

Talia was amazing!!! Please bring her back soon 🥰 I immediately bought her audiobook after listening to this episode and I concur with Jake; she’s fantastic at narrating her audiobook. One of my favourite things in the world is to listen to non-fiction authors that can narrate their own works well, so in my mind Talia Lavin is now part of an esteemed crew including Jon Ronson, Johan Hari, and Bill Bryson. Please let me know of others that should be included in this crew 🥰

Siân

Talia is such a fantastic interview. She uses words so beautifully, and she’s also razor sharp at her craft. Superb work!

JBol

I think the fact that the lib media hates trump and looks to call out his shitty policies in a way they never do with a dem president would have potentially affected the way the media presented escalating genocide. Not because they give a fuck but because they have more reason to. I also think regular every day libs would be more likely to condemn the slaughter if they didn’t feel the need to run cover for their favorite politician. Obviously this isn’t real solidarity by any means but with more ground pressure from regular libs there might have even been some lower level dem politicians that would be willing to do literally fucking anything. They’re all cynical and shitty and disgusting, but I genuinely believe the environment would have been way different if it had been the trump admin doing the atrocities

Willie

To Jake's point that "if it's demons, it's not you," that's one of the things that made me so furious when I still id'd as an atheist, and now as a convert to the Episcopal church makes me more sad than mad; that the Christianity many people subscribe to is one in which evil is this externalized force in the world, and as such we don't have to be accountable for the bad things we do to other people and to the planet. Never having been evangelical or fundamentalist myself, I just don't know how people can read more or less the same bible that I read and come to such a vastly different conclusion. "It's all movies" probably has something to do with it. In some ways I feel like this taking demons and possession and a battle between good and evil extremely literally is a way for fundamentalists to channel liking the products of popular culture without having to admit that they actually secretly enjoy horror movies and heavy metal, etc.

E Lyons

I’m catching up on episodes again… they just keep getting better! ….,QAA keeps inviting the most articulate and fascinating speakers. This was fascinating and eye opening, thank you 😎

C’mon

This analysis is just recycling the last year years. Less bad gaza policy? They already ahead gebun an annexation and genocide with biden Trump will complete it. Same as biden if he won.

Taz

*The Left* has to unite, and then Joe Biden supporters are welcome to join us on the left when they wise up.

No Relation to Henry

I think one of the most disturbing things in the episode was the image of Jake having to eat grocery store bagels out of a plastic sleeve.

David D.

"THEY'RE EATING THE CATS!" Sorry, the Devil made me do it.

bigphoton

What makes you think it would be presented any differently? Destruction of Palestine is exactly what democrats want too.

buttface

Unrelated subject but could you make a follow-up update on Romana Didulo if there's any?

Evan Nelson

Beating your kids doesn't make them a better person. It just makes them better liars.

Jose Luis Rios

I see libs on here talking about destroying the Republicans. But it seems to me democrats are the ones trying the hardest. To save the Republicans party from trump.

Jose Luis Rios

If you unite with the people doing genocide you're just as evil as they are. Try having some moral conviction for once.

buttface

Karen the dems were in charge for the last 4 years so why aren't we already saved? Also excuse me but executing gay people? Give me a fucking break. How about all the children the US government has ACTUALLY executed in Gaza via the Israeli military. I will NEVER vote democrat and no amount of fake concern trolling from the brunch crowd is going to change that - but nice try.

buttface

The comments here make me understand why we are in this pickle. The Left has to unite.

Karen Cox

Save the world by destroying Trump and the Republican Party? Defeat the people who want to repeal the 19th Amendment and execute gays? Why is this hard for you?

Karen Cox

Team up with resistance libs to do what exactly?

buttface

It's a joke toad. I've been to pentecostal services and seeing people babble like babies was horrifying. Speaking in tongues is what it is and it's scary.

Ruth Kiszka

It’s not that deep man I just didn’t want to listen to him rant on the day I posted this

Andrew Lenahan

Im from northern europe. To me its simply impossible to fathom how any adult can honestly belive in religion. I get the "social club/ yoga" aspect of it where its something to do and a way to i guess fill your life with something. Same as playing dnd with freinds or attending swimming lessons or something. But how is it possible to belive is wild to me. You would have to work so damned hard to ignore a vast amount of logic and reason to even begin to belive. And i honestly have a hard time respecting anyone like that. A beliver is closer to like honestly beliving in the tooth fairy as well. Than they are to being a rational person, able to think critically and make sound descisions.

Toadwine

Anecdotally, liberals are a lot more radical when it’s trump doing the kids in cages and genocide. When dems do it the masses and the media ignore or sanitize it. I think every day about how the mass slaughter of Palestinians under a trump admin would be presented by the media and received by libs

Willie

Jesus is coming sounds more like Jesus is cumming. I'm a Christian and this shit nauseated me.

John Brandkamp

Nah this book literally quotes him and there is a mode to episodes like this he is of course capable of. I think it's really disrespectful to say what you're saying.

Sebastian Pickett

This is a great ep. Also, "Reusable Jesus Thruster" is very euphonic

skrrt vonnegut

Can't believe Jake didn't say May the grilled cheese bless you smh

James Cook

Grew up Christian Nationalist & still in therapy to get rid of the brainwashing that we’re all in a magical spirit war between “good & evil.” It’s all BS. Grateful I was able to escape. Really wish this horrid American subculture weren’t taking over the GOP because insane people shouldn’t be running the government or courts, but here we are. Hold onto your butts because it’s gonna be a bumpy 4/40 years.

Natasha Ernst

great show, talia lavin is always great on shows, i need to ask about a possible problem with my billing, i sent a message in the other part of the site, can you let me know

brian burke

"Dried out stick" is probably the most diplomatic way to describe the auto q guy's last sexual encounter with another sentient being.

Brian Sheppard

Only demons from hell would give a grilled cheese that isn't cut diagonally though.

Brian Sheppard

💯

Justin Riley

Ordered her book. Sounds like it hits the nail on the head.

Douglas De Young

I love the way she tells a story. “A Christian loves a Jew like a hungry person loves a chicken wing”.

Sam Wells

My thoughts exactly. I immediately thought of something Chris wade said in the election postmortem chapo episode, about how lib pundits looking for an explanation talk about how they don’t have a “story” to tell voters. What those pundits (and the guest) are actually saying is that they have no ideology, or if they do it is one that identifies no enemies. You should have an ideology, and if you do it should be the correct one, with the correct enemies: Marxism!

Percy Plump

The civil rights/abortion thing is something Matt Sitman of Know Your Enemy has talked about as a former evangelical/conservative activist. People in the movement have a deep conviction that their fight to eradicate abortion is as righteous as King's March on Washington.

Subodh Kafle

Do you think this type of thinking is pathological? As a child I had major delusions and compulsions. Some of this came out through religious behavior and then as a teen it was mostly through religious behavior and belief. I constantly searched for signs and symbols, but that was because I had untreated underlying mental illness. Do you think these people have sort of pathology or are simply fulfilling like normal needs for making meaning?

Chloe Showalter

My ears perked at sandwich talk more than anything else on this episode. Im desensitized to rightwing bullshit but me love a good sammy!

Eric Fernau

When my wife was pregnant, we got all of this literature from our ob-gyn and pediatrician that said things like "A newborn can NOT be manipulative!" and "Feeding a baby when they cry is NOT spoiling them!". At the time I just thought the stress of being a new parent made you act irrationally (and, yes, it sure did), but now I wonder if it was an attempt to counteract some abusive behavior from evangelical parenting

Bonnot

But central planning is utilised and the goal of the so-called state capitalist reforms exist to provide for the needs of the population. China, largely considered to be "state capitalist" has elevated millions and millions of people out of poverty. In order to do that, they needed to accumulate the resources. It's not that complicated.

Xandra

I don't think you're reading Marx if you think that. While the goal of communism is to achieve a stateless society, there's a method to that. Socialism will only be achieved through capitalism. What people call "state capitalism" is the building of capital towards socialism. Communism countries pretty much all developed out of feudalism, in the real world. The ones that became real rivals to capitalism, anyway. The problem with this is that they didn't have the capital and accumulated resources to maintain a socialist trajectory. Therefore, they needed reforms which idiots refer to as state capitalism.

Xandra

Whenever I feel like arguing with evangelicals, I love using terms like “satanic”, “demonic”, or “evil” to describe capitalism or conservatism. It completely catches them off guard because most of them have never conceived of leftism in a Christian context. They’re also biblically illiterate so I’ll always throw out a verse or two. I’m still working out my relationship to Christianity but I refuse to cede faith to the right.

M J

Talia's point about being raised in authoritarian homes where dads beat their kids has an ironic component. All of these people talk about going back to the Fifties, but all of the TV shows from that time feature a dad who, when their kids messed up, came home and...talked to them. Ward Cleaver never beat The Beaver. Well, not the kid.

Hugh Kearney

It's not the lefts fault. Biden and kamala thought they could ignore their voters they had a year to stop israels insanity. They chose not to. If kamala had won antony butcher of gaza blinken kirby and the rest of the genocidaires would have mocked the supporters for equal rights . Kirby. and company will go down in history as the men who sacrificed america to support white colonization.

Ruth Kiszka

I noticed this after 2020: insanity makes for a better podcast. This episodes guest summed up how utterly creepy right wing evangelical support for israels descent into madness is. Thank you guest

Ruth Kiszka

Even Marx opposed the idea of a state towards the end of his life, after seeing what happened with the Paris communes.

hhhhhm

Lenin wanted state capitalism, and that's what he created, via using the unions to co-opt and subordinate the worker controlled factory committees. He helped put the supply chains and structure in place that has led to the especially shitty version of capitalism they have in Russia now. "State socialism" is an oxymoron.

hhhhhm

The problem with the counterzeal for suppossed cacophony disappears if you just embrace Marxism-Leninism as the science through which we will overthrow both the conservative and liberal wing and institute the dictatorship of the proletariat. Clear principles.

Julian Gricksch

Oh, there's cells of them in Europe as well. At least in my country. If your country offers religious tax exemption, you probably have them too.

Pål Christian Andersen

Second to last? Still iffy. We're gonna do it folks! He's gonna eat the moldy one!

Harrison Sanchez

This episode is a grilled cheese for my soul. Thanks for sharing ❤️‍🩹

Lisa Bentz

My favorite thing to tell these people when I interact with them is that I'll pray for them, it really short circuits their brain

Jordan Y Clementi

The bagel has gotten real moldy folks!

tuesdee eldred

That’s a factor outside of this cohort, certainly. But the Saddamn Hussein numbers were very enlightening to hear, to say the least

Shivvy

Yes! I have had many arguments with associates about this exact topic, I.e. the importance of recognizing oral traditions as a valid form of history in need of greater exploration and reverence that is given to other forms of historical transference. That being said, the time period I was specifically talking about is a bit earlier than 10,000 years ago and specifically from an archeological pov.

Beep Boop Beep

I thought it was at first then I thought how good it was! See also Covid infections. "I've had Covid 1-2 times now, might as well refrain from doing anything to avoid further Covid infections" - a lot worse comes from further infections. A lot can happen from one infection

hhhhhm

Yeah also as a non-American, I am always slack jawed at these eps. But I learn so much

Jess C

"Apocalypse humpers". That's not in the book!

Robin Cantin

Ah! I was listening to her book when the episode landed in my phone :) Great to hear her on the show.

Robin Cantin

The Republican message didn't "win" the election. The Democrats' vacuous non-message lost. Yeah, same outcome, but different reason, and that matters.

Austin

Those who don't believe things can get any worse just lack sufficient imagination. Am seconding, or thirding the bluesky recommendation, it's a lot calmer there and am reckon swapping addiction might at least reduce the existential panic our crew sound like they're caught in a Sisyphean struggle with, easing symptoms of overexposure to the swamp lagoon shitpit of shameless opportunist cunts 👩‍🔬

Overzealous Euthanasiast

It was so painful tho 😂

KTF

These past two weeks have been the first time I’ve heard the word “QAnon” outside this podcast. I heard it twice in the McElroy podcasts I listen to. It felt so jarring hearing people I consider to be mainstream and normal say that word

Chloe Showalter

I like Jake's mouldy bagel metaphor. Also applies to the heirachies - some people already experiencing the "worse"

hhhhhm

I didn't realise that "Judeo Christianity" as a shoehorned term is rooted in the history of 'israel', so really new and a way to slyly do Islamophobia. Might not be remembering quite right but it was on a recent Al Jazeera documentary

hhhhhm

Isn't part of the reason for the Oct 7 attack/uprising because the Texan red heifers were at the age they could be burned alive as part of that "purification" ritual and that signs were the intent was to go ahead with it? Which is obviously absolutely insane, any aspect of that ritual.

hhhhhm

Never fails to baffle how people don't bring up more often the apocalyptic death cult major part of evangelism in regards to sending all Jewish ppl to israel to kick off the 2nd coming of Christ - involving use of pure red cows bred n transported from Texas - that supposedly "sends to hell" anyone who doesn't convert starting with dangled-as-metaphysical-bait Jewish communities there. It's a most unhinged underexposed yet vital elastic thread pulling back the cognitive dissonance of ongoing horrific war crimes and the supposed moral arbiters of faith excusing and ignoring everything they can as they remain the largest source of Zionist lobbying still. Is a core issue (or intended design?) with ideology prioritising a hypothetical afterlife over the everyday human struggle: tangible daily suffering means nothing unless you bend the knee and oppress all beneath the alleged hierarchy an alleged god has blessed upon you. (Wealthy white US Mormons share a lot of overlap here too, it should be noted) America would rather tear itself apart than let go of their stated "favourite unsinkable aircraft carrier" - for long-term foreign policy aimed squarely at resource/capital control/extraction in the middle east not only refuses to change, it has made absolutely clear for decades as loud as it can that voters will not be allowed a democratic say on those matters and will be aggressively dealt with if they dare try, if not placated by mistruthes while policy continues under the radar. --------------------------------------------------- Ooh, talking of Christian political fascist takeovers, have you peeps got any plans to cover the recentish revelations about the international lobbying group/Vatican side-project 'Opus Dei' pushing extremist reactionary politics around the world for half a century with members already including supreme court judges, their wives, Leanord Leo and many other politicians? - Yes, the literal real cult from the Davince Code but with less albino ninja monks and more successful authoritarian lobbying and human trafficking instead. All cause some financial reporter was looking into some Spanish bank closure in 2017 -------------- https://slate.com/life/2024/10/what-is-opus-dei-catholic-church-meaning.html - (if you covered it already and I'm being a silly titty biscuit, much apologies, please ignore ramblings lol!)

Overzealous Euthanasiast

⬆️

hhhhhm

This is such a quality conversation. Thanks for getting this episode for us!

hhhhhm

Terrific episode, somber. But great

Josep C.

When are we getting "We're so cooked" merch?

Josh Cleveland

Can we also not toss around schizophrenia as a way to discredit what people are posting on X? As someone who works with people who have been labeled thus I think y'all should be aware of how that can hurt. So-called "sane" people can be just as delusional, if not more.

ROU Sentient Lichen

One of the best interviews to date. Big yes.

kaitlin butler

You know that DeLoreans didn't time travel off the showroom floor, right? I mean they went forward in time, but just at the normal rate.

Brad

Not a day goes by that I don't thank God I'm an atheist. Great episode, thanks!

bigphoton

My mom was a big Dr. Dobson fan and my dad loved Rush. No wonder I’m so fucked up. Freak show

Cory Waring

St. Liv of Agar

ROU Sentient Lichen

There are oral traditions, such as Indigenous cultures, which go back much further though. For instance, there is an Aboriginal Australian story that remembers when an island was connected to the mainland, a situation that likely existed 10,000 years ago. Thus, oral traditions can be a source that goes further back than written sources. https://theconversation.com/ancient-aboriginal-stories-preserve-history-of-a-rise-in-sea-level-36010#:~:text=The%20question%20is%20whether%20the,more%20than%209%2C000%20years%20old.

ROU Sentient Lichen

Anxiety is not faulty genetics, it's more that our late-capitalist hellscape reinforces fight-or-flight processes in our nervous system. Since the threats are diffuse throughout our world today, and we are built for mobilizing efforts to evade short-term threats, it makes sense why this mismatch leads to anxiety.

ROU Sentient Lichen

We really need a crusader kings 3 episode. Trumps defense secretary hagseth has the games motto tattooed on his body: deus vult. There are players who can't stomach the thought of conquering italy with a horde of zoroastrian Uzbeks.

Ruth Kiszka

There’s a time and place for Julian but I also appreciate when it’s just the other two boys because I feel like the episodes are way more concise

Andrew Lenahan

Christian nationalists are awful wow

Ruth Kiszka

As a European where religion is so irrelevant by now ... these episodes are so wild!

lady8jane

One of the best guests you’ve ever had. As a non-American, it can be hard for me to get a handle in the uniquely American forms of extreme Christianity. I didn’t know what to make of Tucker Carlson’s hateful fantasies about beating children when I first heard that clip, so thank you Talia for putting this into context.

Andrew Billings

I just wanted to throw in here that it wasn’t until at least the late Neolithic/early copper age that we have proof of a concept of “higher power”. Before that there is no written sources and so we are unable to with accuracy tell what pre/proto historical societies believed/thought. They of course were spiritual as seen through items found in graves, the placement of bodies and imagery etched/painted/drawn in various forms of rock art.

Beep Boop Beep

This was such an American episode it evem ended on "Let's eat our feelings"

Irina Krier

Also required viewing on this topic if you can access BBC content… Storyville: Praying For Armageddon. https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m001z96s

Jamie Mooney

Early comment for Jake: glad you walked that back, you’re obvs top 50 Trump impersonators

Shivvy

By… divine or devilish coincidence? The copy of Wild Faith i ordered showed up on my doorstep at almost exactly the same time as this ep dropped. Can’t wait to dive in. Devil’s Army, Hoo-Ahh!!

Daniel Reed Miller

That was an excellent opening preamble

David Lunney

"I can't believe you've done this"

'Mech Bae

As someone born and raised in Utah, a place where the most insane worldviews are standard fare, women are Stepford Wives and they monetize abducting and abusing children in wilderness camps, I *thought* I got away from this shit. What I didn't know when I left is that it's not just a Mormon thing. But I think it's worse now, in more subtle, systemic ways -- little ways that people might not notice until it's too late. Like slowly changing the colour of an object until it is an entirely new colour and you're like, 'didn't that used to be yellow?' It's probably a weak example, but I often answer these surveys for consumer panels and other types of studies. Recently, I noticed that all the options for religious affiliation are Christian denominations. Like, ALOTTA them, some I've never even heard of. The only other option is "None of the Above." I might be crazy paranoid, or it might be a sign of the times because Muslims and Jews at the very least used to get a check box. Mostly, I wish there were actionable opportunities to effect positive change for those of us who are not satisfied with screaming into the socialmediaverse. I have a lot to give, but I don't really know where to put it. I'm pretty sure I'm not alone.

Justine Riekena

As a UU seminarian, I think about this a lot. How we cannot cede the idea of faith to one of the worst examples of faith ever conceived.

Jurney Metatron

Yay Lovin the Lavin. Better to bake with Jake than with my sh*tty mother in law! Cant talk got my podcast on! ☺️. Rather a Travis view than a view of endless wicker furniture and cabbage patch ephemera from the tortured childhood of my partner.

Kal

Also love Talia Lavin as a guest. I will eagerly slurp up more Tania. Absolutely fascinating 😊

Jess C

You don’t understand the ㅠㅠ is me crying at her absence

Alex Anderson

L I E S

Phertility

Jake I am such a stan, I am more Traviscally oriented to the world but the more time goes on, the more the Jake pill wins me over. This is a feast for my eardrums ❤️

Jess C

Julian Feeld eez nuts

Cory Waring

liv agar ㅠㅠ

Alex Anderson

Talia Lavin!

Brendan Luster


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