Episode 214: Rewriting Cambridge Analytica (P2) feat Anthony Mansuy

Yeah, I agree with you. I am skeptical of any narrative about near mystical powers to control whether it's the CIA or freaking Steve Bannon. So, in that sense it was worthwhile that QAA is countering that narrative, a narrative I never bought or resonated with. (The CA thing made my eyes glaze over when it was in the news, I was just like "oh they made Facebook quizzes and now they can target ads to people? What's the scandal here? Why is this presented as some techno-superpower when it sounds like just marketing?") Though I do think the episode dismissed even notions of non-mystical levels of persuasion by the right (which is aided and amplified by new tech) which I thought was a bit misguided.

Daniel Greene

Werid to me that there would be francophobic supporters of this podcast.

Sneakaboard

I tend to agree that human animal is basically stupid, and that education in the sense of teaching people how to learn and think really just mitigates this reality rather than negating it. In part I believe this becauee I am 'very smart' according to most of the people in my life and am ostensibly educated from institutions of higher learning and I'm a dumb ass that believes all kinds of stupid shit. I believe we can hold the ideas that 'people are stupid' AND the idea that we shoukd structure society such that reactionary groups pushing psycho political projects do not have the mechanisms, authority or material incentive to manipulate us stupid dummies on a massive scale.

Sneakaboard

You are absolutely right that right wing actors (including and especially the state) proactively propogandize, and that new information technologies have facilitated this and changed how theu deliver their message, I do think it is worth challenging the narrative that tech geniuses have unlocked dark secrets of social engineering on a massive scale and not just expanded their market channels in a politixal economic environment which structurally reproduces right wing propoganda. I find myself making the same point about 'cointelpro' and 'psyops' in my lefty circles where people imagine that the CIA unlocked the secrets of mind control and have essentially magical power to shape social forces when really they just tortured and drugged a lot of people. We can acknowledge the reality and danger of these projecta without imputing to them an almost mystical level of power. (Not saying YOU are doing this, person i'm responding too, just feel compelled to articulate the point.)

Sneakaboard

I am going to have to relisten to both episodes because I can't even say I really resonated with the Cambridge Analytic narrative to begin with, so a lot of this went over my head. Like all the technology "scandals" of our day: Hillary's Emails, Hunter's Laptop, and Twitter Files I hear them (and its never even a coherent narrative) and my eyes glaze over. I guess the narrative of social media being weaponized with data/marketing knowhow, seems true though even if the specific wizardry of CA's personality test data was overblown. As the world goes to hell, it seems like we are in a crisis of right-wing populism which is seemingly attracting people often through social media. I do believe the right is good at "marketing" with disinformation/outrage/fake news on social media just like they succeeded with AM radio and cable news. I'll grant you a lot of the attraction to these rightwing/conspiracy narratives is because of the failures/collapse of the liberal world order, but the right is still DOING something and has agency. If there wasn't something going on, conspiracies and hate becoming rampant online and with real violent offline consequences, I probably wouldn't be listening to your wonderful podcast. I just felt like you almost dismissed the danger of disinformation at the end, "it's just economic anxiety guys", which seemed an odd conclusion for a podcast about the dangers of disinformation.

Daniel Greene

Irina, the problem is that a lot of minorities and non Christians vote for Trump. It's a serious problem. And we can definitely blame liberals for not delivering, including on what they actually promise.

Riley Bloomer-Ludwig

Ok. Did they literally say exactly that? And is it not true, by the way? Clinton's folks might have had some idea that medicare for all, just for a start, was incredibly popular, no ? And if the goal was actually making millions of people's lives better, Clinton herself might have accepted that she just wasn't that popular, and that there was no divine law obligating her to be the candidate, up to and including by rigging the primaries to a large extent. Finally, them having said that has no bearing on the conclusions we can draw from the rigorous research and analysis, in my humble opinion. Here's hoping 2023 will be a better year anyway. Have a good one.

Riley Bloomer-Ludwig

DAYUM some hard hitting reporting that will surely have ramifications... I hope this gets you guys some notoriety. Brilliant!

Chris

"Speaking of, I guess I'm supposed to know who this French guy is. You're platforming him like I'm supposed to know who he is, or something. No solid reasons given why I should trust him, so I don't." Like the opening three minutes of both parts were exactly that, explaining the context for having Anthony on as a guest writer. Tiffany there is little to no substance to the criticism and it's super vague. Criticism is a useful tool, but with the vagueness and outright sillyness at pointsof Bretts comment, in its current form is not really useful - hence why I commented they should do better.

DukeNukem64x

They are kinda representative of people everywhere....it's just that in California they do it better 😉

C’mon

Ok I confess, I fell for the Cambridge analytica mind fuck idea, because it really WAS hard to understand how people believed a criminal reality TV idiot should be president. People in NY knew his character, actually it was everywhere if anyone cared to look. So forget Facebook....it always seemed to me that it was the Apprentice version of Trump that people bought into. "Reality TV" was its own Pill. Anyhoo, great info on all of it....it feels good to be de-pilled about Bannon being a super genius 😂

C’mon

I am not saying that only the bad people voted for Trump and the virtuous folks stayed home. I am saying that there are many many interesting things about this story and to have them say at the end “Hillary ran the most disastrous campaign in the history of the world.” makes me feel like they should have saved their time on a two part episode with all that research because they are just going to reduce it down to that.

Stephanie

Lol - get a life dude

Anders Moe

The problem is what many of the Trumpists consider "a life worth living" is one where minorities don't get to live it and non Christians as well. We see what they think society should be based on the reps they elect and we cant blame liberals for not delivering...

Irina Krier

Currently "centrism" is accomplishing the strangling of Cuba, a path back to war on the Korean peninsula, the continued atomization and impoverishment of the American working class, which breeds more ground for despair and fascism. What has Biden done to stop the privatization of American schools for example ?

Riley Bloomer-Ludwig

Stephanie, I'm not being polemical here and I respect your opinion, but honestly they didn't say "it's Hilary's fault", and I am personally convinced for a host of reasons I believe are pretty rational that Hilary Clinton (somebody who helped destroy the nation of Libya among other things, so no sympathy for her from me here) has a lot of responsability in making sure there was no vaguely left populist / social-democratic candidacy that could have made more people vote and attracted a lot of deindustrialized regions back to a Democratic Party that has been facilitating the delocalization of American industry for decades. If I am to understand correctly, your opinion is that Trump was elected because bad and mean people voted, as opposed to the good and virtuous and intelligent people who voted for the good and virtuous Hilary Clinton ? I'm sure that's a simplification but you haven't given much to go on.

Riley Bloomer-Ludwig

Actually Antoine is a journalist and he has interviews that disprove the Canadian loser's claims about his motives. Because he did journalism. And published a piece in a news magazine. Nice try though. Try listening through ?

Riley Bloomer-Ludwig

Brett, calm down buddy, take a breath. It's just dipshits from california doing what they do. #onlypodcastipayfor

Ronnie Maynard

it's cool you pay $5/month to tell them you wish the show was something else and my $5 allows me to point that out to you

D Gordon

I'm paraphrasing with the "not that serious" but the commenter who wrote the long comment is asking them to do better. He has valid criticism and it's a problem with these longform "informative" podcasts. I haven't been able to get through these two episodes, I think mainly because I've been waiting for the gotcha moment that never seems to come. But saying "you should ask them to do better" when someone is pointing out how he feels they should do better while invalidating that criticism is wild.

Tiffany Craig

I was unaware of them giving a "it's not that serious" response to valid criticism, then again I don't that often follow the threads. I would say, in direct response to some of what Brett said is that it's a limitation of the medium of podcasts and video how much the hosts can hold your hand. I haven't really looked into this episode to really judge, but most of what Brett says is lacking in specifics - if you have some qualms about the coverage, you can seek out the information and let us/them know, since this isn't really constructive criticism, it is "this sounds/feels wrong, but I am too lazy to do the work to interrogate that feeling and come to a useful conclusion". But yeah, I think we can all agree that with a platform does come some level of responsibility when making factual claims about the world we live in, and it is good to hold our entertainers to account when they are in that arena, as is QAA. Anyways, to reiterate, love the hosts, and I am not commenting on this two parter episode in particular so I am not saying there was any kind of failing on part of the crew in this instance, nor am I implying there are other factual errors or misrepresentations or that they don't take their work on the podcast seriously. If you want QAA to do better, then you should aspire to do better since in its current form, your comment doesn't really do much, Brett.

DukeNukem64x

People can and should criticize the media they consume. I'm frustrated with podcasts like this one and BtB that want the credibility - like we're supposed to trust in what they say - but don't want the responsibility of journalism. I dropped BtB because I feel like Evans is doing what they're doing here where it's for ~entertainment~ yeah ok but if they don't have any credibility with their audience, it's just some guys saying some things. The crux of both of these podcasts is we're supposed to trust the hosts have done research but if you challenge them on it they reply with a "it's not that serious" response... but what you're talking about kind of is? IDK.

Tiffany Craig

I think you should get into professional wrestling cuz you got a fuckin problem and the cause is giving way too much of a shit about this stuff!

calvin kilby

This is why they aren’t claiming to be journalists and are doing an entertainment podcast. If you’re displeased maybe stop paying for the patreon, you’re paying $5 to get yourself so worked up you feel the need to write a diatribe about it and that doesn’t seem like a fun time

You know you don't have to give this podcast your money if you no longer like what they do right? Furthermore nothing that you said was even remotely valid. They had the journalist who reported on the topic they were discussing and the narrative they laid out was fairly straightforward. You're acting like a petulant child because a podcast you pay $5 a month for isn't doing pulitzer prize winning journalism.

Logan Ausherman

This is why you guys should try and do traditional journalism... It's because you never get around to any actual journalism. This is just a story about a guy who might be a liar, but there's no way to tell. You simply introduced a woman whom you claim is credible, and parrot her claim. You haven't even given us a reason to distrust the liar, because you haven't proven he's lying. "Dude said a thing, we found someone else who says differently, you don't get any context, believe us". You do what the right does and simply rattle off a few negative things about a person, and that's why they drink adrenochrome. It's hard to be a real journalist, so maybe leave it to them. Speaking of, I guess I'm supposed to know who this French guy is. You're platforming him like I'm supposed to know who he is, or something. No solid reasons given why I should trust him, so I don't. The worst part is that I agree with you, and still think you're shit at proving anything. This is just a bad movie script that's just, "and this happened, and then this happens, and then this other thing happens...". That's fine, but don't expect me to care if you're not putting a narrative together. I'm not putting any more work into a piece of media than the creator. You don't tell me why I should trust this journalist, so I don't. You don't tell me why Wylie's claims don't hold up versus his detractors, so I assume he's right as a default position because he's the protagonist. Journalism is like translation - it's not enough to simply regurgitate machine translation. A good translator has to put the translation into a context the target audience culture will understand. A good journalist has to lay out facts in a way that lets the audience have context and understanding... Neither of which you ever provide. It's like Liv's episode that was just dry regurgitation of esoteric political theory that assumed I was willing to do homework to listen to a comedy podcast. Stick to what you do well and stop trying to be what you're not. We don't even get a Jake Story as a reward for sitting through this stupidity. Granted, the one from the last time Julian tried to play journalist is one of the worst he's done, it's still better than the episode it's attached to... And that episode was leaps and bounds better than this one.

Brett Harris

I LOVE ANTHONY

Will

Great episodes! And great job by Anthony gathering all this. The interviews with Wylie were so good but also quite painful to listen to… and that outro clip… oof.

Phoebe

“Girl, you’ve read some 3rd wave shit” I’m going to hurl myself into The Abyss

Shivvy

@Erin Kelleher And what do you think the root causes are that I'm overlooking? Honest question, by the way. I'm well aware that attributing a problem to a lack of intelligence (or any other trait) doesn't solve said problem. But I don't know WHAT the solution is to harmful decisions being made by people who are simply unable or unwilling to think critically or observe results over a longer period of time than a fucking tiktok video.

David Fellner

I feel like "stupid" people is missing the key issue that there's a lot of "smart" people that fall for this stuff. In fact the reason why they are probably more vulnerable to this is because they feel like they're immune. See: the stereotype of the stem guy's falling victim to conspiracy theories, especially ones outside of their own domain of knowledge.

z

I don’t think there is any reason to feel dumb. The info you had at the time reinforced his story. Now you have the bigger picture. We can’t get everything right all the time. Sometimes are first takes are wrong. It’s totally fine to feel differently the more information you gather.

Stephanie

"stupid people" is an extremely shallow analysis that allows one to ignore any root causes that are too complicated or inconvenient by blaming everything on individuals. the logical conclusion of that isn't any greater insight about the society around us or how to fix it, it's just, "I'm glad I'm smarter than all those stupid people". It's a total dead end

dumbest girl alive

I would even agree with them on the argument that it’s fascinating how quickly and easily the idea that Steven Bannon and a tech company brainwashed so many people Trump got elected took hold among Dems. But when it gets to the part where we bring up Hillary and how it’s her fault I can’t help but roll my eyes.

Stephanie

When something seems sus (and anything associated with Bannon is sus), there will be an overwhelming urge to believe the worst possible iteration of whatever that thing is and when you have so-called insiders coming out telling you that's exactly what happened, it can be hard to resist.

Brad Plumb

I think there are two different arguments here. One is about the benefits of democrats embracing a more overtly socialist agenda and the other is about the electoral chances of such a thing. I think such an agenda could do concrete things to make life better for Trump supporters. But at the same time, I don't think Trump voters will ever vote for such a thing. In some ways, I think framing the argument as "you could have won if you...." is doing the left a disservice. Biden proved last election that centrism *can* win. But the bigger question is can centrism accomplish anything? The problems in America right now have gone beyond the capability of electoral politics to fix them. A more fundamental approach is needed. And in that sense, Julian is right. "Steve Bannon is evil" is not that fundamental approach.

Brad Plumb

i feel so dumb for believing the stuff he wrote in his book 🙈

What's the problem with pointing out the fact that the vast majority of people will be willing to believe or invent horseshit if they don't see any possibility of a life worth living either for them or for any kids they might have ? Sounds like a pretty basic historical fact, that unfortunately more-or-less bourgeois college educated "Democratic" liberals in the United States are very attached to denying, as Chapo Traphouse very often rightly points out. I think if the left was able to convincingly formulate and propagate a political program with some chance of being realized that didn't basically come down to "if you're not a visible minority, you're guilty of something, and if you are, all your subjective opinions are so beautiful and great", as the world hurdles towards apocalypse, then yes, people would be less interested in losing their mind in Q-Anon conspiracy shit, or willing themselves into loving mean-spirited losers like Trump and Co.

Riley Bloomer-Ludwig

No you are completely right, US society in particular is designed to ensure people stay incurious, small-minded and malleable. Basic critical thinking is not encouraged, people are not taught media literacy or lead to engage with anything that isn't explicitly brain melting trash. The US has the largest propaganda machine in history, but its also true that it has the most ignorant and dis empowered population of the empire.

Sneakaboard

I agree. There's still a MASSIVE unaddressed sexism and racism problem in this country, and Trump won by tapping into that. Really really love this show but I'm not on board with what's starting to sound like "both-sides-ism" and sympathizing with Trump supporters, perhaps in a misguided attempt to win them over? As a former rightwinger, I assure you that's not the right strategy. They'll just think you agree with them and therefore that they're right, and they'll dig in their heels even deeper.

Ask Me Later

I would argue it’s ignorance rather than stupidity. A generation of adults who lived most of their lives without the internet feel like it’s all a magic trick. They have very little knowledge of how social media works. Combine that with huge swaths of folks who have had a lack of access to not only the internet but also media literacy education and here we are! Maybe I am a fool for thinking that more access to education would improve our circumstances but I am a librarian and the ideal keeps me going on rough Monday mornings.

Stephanie

Same. I can usually just ignore the Chappo stuff Julian veers towards every now and again, especially because I don’t always disagree with his take, but this was impossible to ignore and threatened to take something away from the whole point which is everything about the relationship between big tech and its users is incredibly messed up. No they can’t make you vote for Trump because you took a Facebook quiz and now they send you brainwashing ads… but the whole end of the episode seemed off for a group that has seen first hand and analyzed many many instances of how misinformation is dangerous. The problem with all this is not that “Libs” got freaked out by Cambridge and Steve Bannon’s claims. The problem is Facebook made as much money as they could and because they could you can tie a thread directly from them to all sorts of awful things. It’s like we had to forget all their previous reporting and work so Julian could take a shot a “Libs.” We get it. And it’s fine to have that opinion, but make sure there aren’t any mental gymnastics done to turn a story about a skeezy lying tech entrepreneur(s) into a cautionary “Look How Dumb The Libs Are!” tale. So many more interesting things going on here, that didn’t get brought up.

Stephanie

To the question of, "why the fuck do people fall for these conspiracy theories?" I still think, even taking all this other gaslighting and marketing fuckery into account, the answer is simply because people are stupid. I know it sounds trite, but some things become trite simply because they are factually accurate and observable all over the world. The market research, the datamining, the ads targeted at mentally vulnerable people, these are all just catalysts that amplify the root cause: stupidity. These things would never work if a large chunk of the average people weren't so insanely idiotic, so butt-fuckingly stupid, as to believe in things like QAnon in the first place. Facebook/Twitter marketing just gives direction to people's lack of intellect, which would otherwise be "squandered" on harmless things like booze, cable television, and mobile games. In other words, any success these algorithms have is a symptom, not the cause.

David Fellner

Kinda disappointment by the ~economic anxiety~ turn towards the end tbh

Nikko Pomata

So basically a lot of the scandal was massive lib copium to deal with the fact that a lot of people fucking hated Hillary.

Matt