Gunslinger

Ok, just wanted to see if attacking normally was meant to be allowed. Mounted weapons being usable unmounted by high str characters means its almost definitely gonna happen at some point. Ammo Costs should probably include for multiple. Just to make things easier when restocking. Standard ammo costs are pretty neglible, gun ammo costs are a more accountable thing.

Ash

Not only have I run the number on this class from a few different angles, but I've also playtested it quite a bit -- it's balanced and one of the most fun classes I've written. The gatling gun and the light cannon do have the option to attack normally or use their special modes of attack. (It's important to note that these two guns /aren't/ strictly balanced for normal combat -- they should be special case weapons included in a fight.) Ammunition costs are for singles, yes. I thought of including boxes of 50 or 100 bullets, but the totals came up so easily that I figured most players could handle the multiplication.

Mage Hand Press

A few things seem quite powerful in the core class, but will trust that the numbers work out. But.. so gatling guns and light cannon as is are able to attack as normal as well? Their special features aren't really listed as the only way to attack with them. As an action you can, or as an attack you can target. If intended elsewise, should be When you make an attack (LC), or you cannot attack normally, but may use an action to... (GG) ammunition costs are for singles only?

Ash

Maybe I have overlooked something, but with the Speed Loader ability, the gunslinger can reload any time? Say he is using a 6 shot revolver, and fans the hammer in the first round (so two attacks from the attack action, and 3 more attacks at a disadvantage as a bonus.) then in the second round, he has a single shot left, which using the attack action he fires, He still has an attack from extra attack, and wants to fan the hammer again. So he can reload without using an action? What about while fanning the hammer? can he fire one of the bonus shots from fan the hammer, reload, then continue the fan? seems weird, but maybe it doesn't matter.

onslo jones

Incapacitated does remove reactions. I'm pretty sure I intended that to be 'bonus actions'. The idea is basically a turn-skip. I'm much more comfortable with a hard disadvantage on Fan the Hammer. That feature is overpowered to the max if you can mitigate the disadvantage -- I can't believe I didn't implement it already.

Mage Hand Press

I think your idea of removing ability modifiers is a great idea, because it fits in- line with the risky aspect of the class. One thing I have to question is, doesn't incapacitated already stop reactions? I feel that the second option doesn't affect Fan the Hammer, as much as it does dual wielding. The chances of rolling double crits is quite low, making it's impact on Fan the Hammer quite low. That being said, (this is just a thought) but instead of making it a hard disadvantage (a completely new mechanic) on Fan the Hammer, making gut shot only work on attack actions could help make it feel better. Because of the proposed changes, players can't abuse the incapacitate mechanic, but are still rewarded for gaining advantage over an enemy. The damage won't be insane or consistant thanks to the lack of ability modifiers, but it'll have crazy damage spikes as expected of the class. Let me know what you think.

Dragun

Thanks for the feedback! We've been playtesting this class, but we haven't had as many combat encounters as I'd like with it (and we've been under 11th level exclusively.) That being said, I have noticed a fairly high damage spike when I switched from Sharpshooter to Pistolero, so I think that's where I need to focus my efforts. I think making Fan the Hammer a hard disadvantage (regardless of other advantages) is a very good idea. I think I'll also remove adding your ability score to damage when dual-wielding or using Fan the Hammer, even if you would be allowed to add it otherwise. I stand by making it save-less, but I'll also go ahead a make Gut Shot only apply to creatures that are Large size and smaller. Two other options for changes (let me know what you think of them: I could reduce Gut Shot to only incapacitating the target (IE, allowing such a target to still move and take reactions?) I could limit Gut Shot only to attacks you make with the Attack action on your turn (IE, no reaction shots, no Fan the Hammer, and no Dual-Wielding Gut Shots.)

Mage Hand Press

So we finally wrapped up the session, and the review from the group is a bit on the negative side, even after the changes being reverted. They feel that the damage is on the high side; along with the save-less incapacitate. They feel that the Fan the Hammer needs a resource behind it, or "hard disadvantage" (always disadvantage, despite future advantages). They understand that it needs that amount of shots to compare to dual wielding, but they feel that if that's the case that you should weaken dual-wielding. They also feel that the Gut Shot mechanic is on the strong side, as you can stop even large creatures and can actually happen commonly. I don't how it's possible to balance it, but they feel that the class is a lot stronger than Champion or Battlemaster fighter, comparatively. The enemy types were a bit on the extreme sides, either enemies had a low AC (as said earlier) or the final enemy, which was a Tarrasque. We actually managed to beat it, mainly because I could shoot and fan the hammer, landing at least one crit (without advantage) every other round. So yeah, that's the feedback from the group. I look forward to hearing your response.

Dragun

Alright, after a depressing amount of math on the subject, it appears that my initial number of Fan the Hammer shots were closer to the mark (at least over more of the levels.) There's a lot of weird stuff going on with bounded accuracy and the square of success ratios, but it looks like the lowered shot amount was more reasonable for expected damage. Change reverted

Mage Hand Press

Well I'm attacking with a +11 (5 dex+4 prof+2 magic gun), for this current encounter we were fighting creatures with large health pools, but 15-15 AC. Because of that I was hitting most of my shots, so I can't really comment on regular foes. We don't usually fight creatures with this low AC. Personally I have a preference for the lowered amount of shots, because I don't know where the seventh shot comes from (2 attacks from action, 5 attacks from Fan the Hammer). However I'll tell you lot what happens in future encounters.

Dragun

Ah, that'll get off quite a bit of damage. Does the increased number of attacks using Fan the Hammer feel too powerful? I'm beginning to suspect that many tables routinely roll with a 75% or greater chance to hit, which probably makes this feature feel overpowered.

Mage Hand Press

That is how it states how magical bows and the such work in the Errata. That damage was with Fan the Hammer, I rolled alright (mostly over ten on d20s) and the enemies ac was low, around 15 I think.

Dragun

I believe so -- a magical bow imbues its ammunition with magical properties, does it not? Also, that damage seems very unlikely with only two attacks. Did you also get a crit? I did some math in the comment below this one, if you'd like to know how I judge the damage output (it's swingy, but on average, pretty fair.)

Mage Hand Press

This comes online at 11th level, and basically places the damage in line with a fighter with three attacks. (My damage calculations ignore critical damage increases for this feature, since the expected damage from a critical is intended to make the gunslinger very dangerous.) A fighter gets (approximately) 1d10 + Strength (5) damage on a successful hit. For each hit, this is an expected damage of about 10.5. A gunslinger gets (at maximum) 2d10, which has an expected damage of 11 (with a higher ceiling and a lower floor, which is reasonable to compensate for the unpredictability of your damage.) At level 11, a gunslinger is dealing 32 (4d10 + 10), whereas a fighter is dealing 31.5 (3d10 + 15). /Exactly/ where I want it to be. You can get higher damages, both from critical hits, and good d10 rolls (though you might also choose to use a weapon with lesser damage.) The spikes in damage should make a gunslinger dangerous, but unpredictable. You might deal an amazing hit against a goblin, or you might roll 1s and 2s against the boss.\

Mage Hand Press

Hey, I'm currently play testing the Gunslinger in a campaign. The character is level 12, and because of that (and the high-magic setting) she starts off with a +2 Revolver. After a nasty round of damage (105) my dm questioned one of the factors of the attack. Does a magical firearm with non-magical ammo deal magical damage? I know how this mechanic works with bows and such, just wanted clarification that it works the same.

Dragun

To be fair, from the other factors he's talking about, I think he's referring to the level 11 Mankiller feature.

Dragun

I'm not sure if you misread the firearm section, but you very specifically do NOT add your stat bonus to damage with firearms for that exact reason.

Jaron Mortimer

While I'm really on board with the class, I must say, giving the Gunslinger their ability modifier to damage seems like it would really throw their damage through the roof, especially given they already have an increased critical range on top of superiority dice. Was there any specific instance math or playtesting to back that decision? I'm still running numbers around on my end, but overall, it just seems really powerful of an option to have 2d8+5 with an 18-20 critical range flying around, with an additional d10 to boot.

JaQKnife

(In case any of you are wondering how I got to this change, Fan the Hammer with three attacks actually matches up closely to the expected damage of two-weapon fighting at a 50% change of hitting the target. Then, as you get more attacks with Fan the Hammer, or as the chance of hitting the target becomes more certain, the expected damage begins to lean in the direction of Fan the Hammer.)

Mage Hand Press

On Skin of Your Teeth: it's potentially higher than shield, sure, but unlike shield, the actual number is random, and it doesn't protect you from magic missiles. As for why we did this, the idea is that you dodge something (by the skin of your teeth, in fact) rather than redirecting it to take less damage. On Alchemist gun prof: It's the same reason the wizard doesn't get one. Giving an alchemist a gun is kinda pointless, since the class is built specifically around bombs and you'd likely never use a gun. The proficiencies in the table don't *have* to be set in stone. If you're DMing, you can give your players whatever you want. Personally, in a gun-heavy setting, I'd give everyone prof with at least one gun.

Hey all! Experimental change to Fan the Hammer: three shots as a bonus action instead of one. This has the potential to be pretty powerful, since it means you're making 4 attacks on your turn at a very low level, but it's compensated by lots of disadvantage. Do some playtesting, and let me know if it feels on par with two-weapon fighting (using light revolvers) or much more powerful.

Mage Hand Press

Yup! Good idea, and I've made that change in the class

Mage Hand Press

If you choose a shotgun as your two-handed non-heavy firearm, do you get 30 shells instead of bullets?

Braden Read

Hm -- I really don't want those fighting styles to stack. I guess I'll have to name-drop the Archery fighting style to say it doesn't stack.

Mage Hand Press

Two very good points. I'll take a look at the skills, and add a die expenditure into Dodge Roll (it's intended to have one -- right now, it's an accidental omission.)

Mage Hand Press

Looking more into it, I'm surprised sleight of hand isn't a Gunslinger skill. I figured with their fast hands, it would be a good skill for them. Any particular reason for this? Also, I feel like I'm missing something with Dodge Roll. I thought Deeds used Risk dice, but this one doesn't.

Dragun

Problem I've noticed: Taking one level of fighter for archery fighting style, and one level of gunslinger and getting a flat +4 to all ranged attacks with a rifle is kinda strong. At level 2 that's a +7 to hit, assuming a 16 DEX. By 17th level that's +15 to hit without a magical weapon.

John Hoffman

I would certainly love to see that, and contribute in any way possible

Dathan

We've had a bit of a discussion on this and it looks like, instead of trying to squeeze another item into Weird West, the Knuckle and I might be writing some RWBY-themed content in the future. Exciting!

The Nails of Vecna

And, since our misfire rules are /very/ simple, I've included them in the post above.

Mage Hand Press

This doesn't need misfire by default. It's balanced as is, and we didn't feel misfires were that fun. The misfire rules are coming in the Weird West next month, but they're optional -- only if you want them in your campaign.

Mage Hand Press

i used the critical role version of the gunslinger for a while. I liked this one but, no misfire?

Medieval Ram

the ones i use allow adding the ability score, but they do less damage with the pistols doing 1d10 and the rifle doing 1d12. plus they have a missfire chance. ill probably play around with stuff a bit, but for the most part it should be balanced. either way, i love the class and will definitely be allowing it in my campaigns for people who want a full gunslinger rather than a subclass.

Jackie syver

Thanks for the fast response. I can see where you're getting from on both subjects, good thing I asked. I was so worried about the potential damage from Fan the Hammer, but I guess the damage won't pile up if you miss half the shots haha. Still though, even that concept feeds into the classes gambling-gunslinger style. I have to say, despite any minor tweaks you feel is necessary, you nailed the theme of this class perfectly.

Dragun

Well, it's basically a cestus that extends to the elbow, and can fire from the hand and elbow. The primary use is using the recoil from elbow shots to deliver faster, more powerful punches, while the shots from the hand can be used to push the arm back for a convincing feint, while still shooting the target. Basically Yang's weapon from RWBY, but toned down because if the blasts could actually be used to propel the user upwards, it'd be a bit ridiculous and a lot more complicated as a magic item.

Dathan

It's mostly because crits are totally unpredictable. It's nice when you score one, but we didn't feel like another layer of uncertainty was needed on top of that. Fan the Hammer is actually very weak in practice -- I've been thinking about increasing the number of shots to compensate. That passive disadvantage on Fan the Hammer shots is a just a risky gamble.

Mage Hand Press

Thanks for your thoughts! We know the critical shot thing gets very powerful by 18th level, but this is something we were okay with for two reasons: 1) it's a pillar of the class, something the design rests upon, and which separates this class from other classes, and 2) you can't functionally control when it happens, so you're mostly guessing at when it goes off. This unpredictability makes it far less practical than a rogue's sneak attack, for example. Gunsmithing kits and lassos are going to be in Weird West next month -- my bad on inclusion here. I'll have to edit those out, since it'll be hard to find space for them in the firearm section below. Camouflage: That's a really good point; I forgot about the ranger when I wrote this! (Boy, it's eerie how similar those came out.) 7th level should be more of a throwaway ability for the gunslinger archetypes, since it's the same level that Evasion comes online, so I'll be looking at potential nerfs for this. We're going to put optional misfire rules in the Weird West book. As it stands, we're very happy with the way these play, so the optional rules shouldn't really come in the standard package. Proficiencies for our own classes might need closer attention: I could see us making an entire gun-alchemist in the future to have fun with this.

Mage Hand Press

This class looks amazing. You lot managed to fit in so many different gun and western concepts. I have to say though, the Gut Shot and Fan the Hammer look like really strong features, especially when used together. I'm not the best at balancing, so there may factors I'm forgetting. Was there a reason for no prevention methods for Gut Shot, such as a save? I don't think it's that bad because it's only on crits, but doesn't that mean that you could do this for a free lock-down on a boss character?

Dragun

Our firearms are /very/ similar to those presented in the DMG (just with a few more options.) The key difference is the removal of the ability score modifier to damage -- that's the thing that keeps damage in check. If you mix and match this with other systems, keep that in mind.

Mage Hand Press

Expand upon the idea of 'shotgun gauntlets' for me. There might be room in the magic items

Mage Hand Press

Ah well, I'll find another way to get my shotgun gauntlets. But an anti-gun monk does sound great. How's that saying go, "Always bring your fists to a gun fight?"

Dathan

Yep, gun magic, new subclasses, etc. will be in the main Weird West package. As the digit responsible for the monastic tradition, though, I feel I should advise you no to get your hopes up for a 'gun monk': it's really more of an *anti* gun monk...

The Nails of Vecna

I was really looking forward to this having gun magic and the related such, and maybe some sort of gun monk. About 3 minutes ago, I realized that stuff will probably be part of the Weird West. I've never been more impatient for the first of the month

Dathan

i like this class. it could probably work in my campaign with a few changes on my end, along with the other gunslingers ive found. i will probably open this up as an option for future players who want to play a gunslinger, along with matt mercers and sterling vermins. the reason i would have to change some things with this is because i already use matt mercers gun rules are the standard of my campaigns since the beginning and everyone like them so at this point its easier to modify other gunslingers than to convert everything to another system. and to be honest, all that really changes is some of the weapons, most class features will stay exactly the same. so on that front, thank you for making this the way you did making it easy to convert to my system. i like this class and it would work well for someone who wants a full gunslinger class rather than just a fighter archetype. like all the gunslingers ive found, this one still manages to fill a niche of its own, making it a good addition.

Jackie syver

First Impressions Overall: I noticed that it's modeled after the Battlemaster. That's cool, and honestly works better than trying to adapt the admittedly finicky Grit system. You have half as many deeds as maneuvers, but you have all deeds available at all times. That gives a lot of options all-at-once, but most of the other features are passives so that should be fine. Plus, if you were to limit deeds like Battlemaster, that would honestly feel wrong. I also see that it's a critical hit class and I think that is neat. A lot of features are built around landing and capitalizing on crits. A 9th level Gunslinger is on par with a 15th level Champion regarding the crit range, while a 18th level Gunslinger surpasses them. While I'm ok with a class getting features faster than an archetype, by 18th level, you're able to land a crit 1/5 of the time with weapons that deal 2~3 damage dice. I'm honestly unsure how to feel about that, even with a crit-focused class. Proficiencies: What is a gunsmithing kit? What is a lasso? The document does not explain either. Mankiller: All firearms? Even heavy ones, which Gunslingers aren't proficient with? Gunslinger's Creeds. Marksman. Camouflage: This is the Ranger's Hide in Plain sight, except it can stack with that for a whopping +20 to Stealth or a +10 to your Stealth and -10 to opposing Perception checks, depending on the Ranger edition. Woah. You get it earlier than Hide in Plain Sight as well. Deeds. Skin of your Teeth: This is the shield spell except it starts off with potentially higher numbers and goes up from there. I'm curious why you chose an AC boost instead of damage reduction like parry? Other thoughts. -I find it funny that the Alchemist, whose MO is blowing things up, does not get a gun prof. -You mentioned that optional misfire rules may or may not be available. I guess you decided against them. I've honestly been excited for this since you posted the firearm rules and this does not disappoint. This iteration of the Gunslinger is like a Battlemaster/Champion hybrid that's hyper-focused on ALL THE PEW PEW. I have another Gunslinger class I'm fond of and I'll happily let players pick which one they like. Looking forward to further developments and the public release!

Nate Lieu

Warden: as barbarian Warmage: as warlock Witch, Shugenja, and Alchemist: as wizard Craftsman: as fighter

Mage Hand Press

What firearms are your homebrewed classes proficient in?

John Hoffman