UNCUT - Family (TNG S4E2) | Star Trek Journey 183
Added 2024-08-22 18:33:12 +0000 UTCComments
Let Patrick Stewart cook
penoyer79
2024-10-02 21:24:16 +0000 UTCI knew you guys would love this one. All character stuff and a direct follow up from the last episode. You are viewing that slow move in television from episodic to more serialized. And Ron…this is classic Ron Moore. Mind you, Ron will have a clunker or two (I’m actually only thinking of one at the moment). But he is a solid writer. I liked the kid actor. Kid actors are tricky but TNG has done well in casting overall. I loved Worf’s family. In TOS of course Romulans were China and Klingons were Russians in the “cold war” allegory. So Worf’s family being Russian is a wink to that. Ron was a massive fan of TOS and he loves Klingons.
Crankygrandma
2024-09-02 15:01:00 +0000 UTC"S+"? Just you wait...
Ee'char
2024-08-29 17:49:43 +0000 UTCYeah, I 100% think “gripes and groans” is a good segment but is NOT needed for every episode. It just feels like nitpicking at that point.
Pokeysaurus
2024-08-27 16:34:45 +0000 UTCAbout the schematics of the enterprise you can look up schematics of current naval ships now too.
Jason Biggs
2024-08-27 13:17:44 +0000 UTCThis was my favorite episode of the series. To leave most of the scifi trappings behind and just focus on the characters and what three of them have been through and really dig in was just amazing.
Theodore Workman
2024-08-26 15:37:32 +0000 UTCYou guys have a tough job. Most of your patrons have been watching these episodes for 30+ years. I think we instinctively want to watch you enjoy it for the first time and relive our memories, and it’s admittedly disconcerting when you shrug at Wrath of Khan or give BOBW a B. It’s your honest opinion, colored by you having decades more television experience coming into it. You’re clinically going through something we color with nostalgia and are putting a grade on it. Alternatively, I subscribe to another channel where the host nods his head and loves everything and “great, great, great” even when we knew 30+ years ago it was a crap episode. I’m not getting anything from that either. You do you. Personally, I join and leave and change around communities on a monthly basis due to time and what I’m interested in that month. You’ll see me come and go but be true to you, and I can’t wait for your impressions of Deep Space. The best advice I can offer any content producer is if you like something, say it, and if you don’t like something, say it. Don’t feel you need one of each.
Ryan Fisher
2024-08-25 16:41:10 +0000 UTCAppreciate it Ryan! The segment is being reworked for its purpose to be a bit more clear.
Josh (Target Audience)
2024-08-25 16:09:43 +0000 UTCGood point. I've always presumed this but never thought about it consciously.
Jovet
2024-08-25 10:10:35 +0000 UTCOn the gripes and groans section… Everyone here wants something different. Alex and Josh have to produce what feels right to them. I’m a tough reviewer myself. I just reviewed a book I read a month ago and two complaints stayed with me for a month. Reading my review makes it seem like I hated the book. Some Trek fans don’t want criticism at all. I think covering all of Star Trek in production order is an outstanding goal. I will be honest. Time is a valued commodity for me. Tuning in to hear why BOBW gets a B or complaints about Family isn’t what I’m looking for. I grew up on this show. I love this show. I want to kick back and enjoy it when I have time for a rewatch. This channel tries to be more than that, and others may want that deep analysis. That’s totally valid, and respect for sectioning it off so we can have BOBW. I just don’t need to hear why the episode I’ve loved for years wasn’t as good as I always knew it was. You guys do you. Sincerely. It’s what clearly so many people here want and you’re bending backwards to appease everyone. I dropped another channel cold when one of the hosts so disrespected the content that we loved and his paying audience by having a tantrum in a rewatch. You guys produce quality content. Some of us may leave and come back and not quite gel, but that’s on us, not you.
Ryan Fisher
2024-08-25 05:21:54 +0000 UTCI really cannot understand the criticism from many here. Of course, I can't relate to intimidation by technobabble, either.
Jovet
2024-08-25 01:34:55 +0000 UTCBecause he was and did.
Jovet
2024-08-25 01:32:20 +0000 UTCI don't think they are inventing them...buuuuttttt...if you have to fill up time you will think really hard and maybe give more voice to something than you otherwise would have....
Greg Quinn
2024-08-24 22:54:05 +0000 UTCYeah which seems pretty feasible in 350 some years (it's probably feasible now with AI). And yeah if he had acted super emotional towards Wesley it wouldn't have made sense. This isn't him talking from beyond the grave...it's just him doing something cool that he's expecting to do a lot more of.
Greg Quinn
2024-08-24 22:51:26 +0000 UTCNormal picard would consider the job, traumatized picard that just murdered his comrades as locutus would
Scarpad’s Domain
2024-08-24 21:10:28 +0000 UTCGrief..watch out what you wish for you post 2009 you may get more than you ever could hope for
Scarpad’s Domain
2024-08-24 20:45:58 +0000 UTCI can’t imagine Data even leaving the ship. He had no family on Earth (or anywhere), Lal was likely already disassembled, and as Operations officer he probably kept busy with the 6week refit. Like Spock before him he has no need for recreation, and the last time he left the bridge during a refit the Bynars stole the ship…. (That last one was a joke)
tyranusfan
2024-08-24 14:52:46 +0000 UTCI actually thought the kid was fine and did a decent job. To each his own, though. Glad you guys liked the episode, it is one of my favs
Matt F
2024-08-24 00:43:41 +0000 UTCSorry y'all, but I quit listening at that point.
Dale Williams
2024-08-23 22:31:42 +0000 UTCI agree about the Jack Crusher actor's stiff performance... even though Beverly would have been younger there I also don't really feel she would have picked a pretty boy for herself like that. But I totally disagree on the others... I have seen Samantha Eggar and Jeremy Kemp in other performances ... They are fine actors and I believe they were wonderful here as Robert and his wife. I also liked the kid all right. As Worf's parents, Georgia Brown and Theodore Bikel were primarily stage actors... and let's just say it shows here.
David Wayne Fox
2024-08-23 19:53:34 +0000 UTCS-Tier gentlemen
Josef Nitervol
2024-08-23 17:43:51 +0000 UTCHA HA HA!! Portable replicator.
Vagon Khan
2024-08-23 16:42:06 +0000 UTCWasn’t referring to you; you wrote actual points
Josh (Target Audience)
2024-08-23 16:18:06 +0000 UTCYeah the relationship I had with my brother at the time we both saw this was definitely not the same as it is now, which is why I'll start crying when I see this, and want to text him, just to say Hi.
Firekrys FWO
2024-08-23 15:56:48 +0000 UTC"Yes, we're all individuals!"
Dan Halstead
2024-08-23 15:25:36 +0000 UTCMy only issue with this one is that it needs to be 20 minutes longer to go deeper on all of these stories. Couldn’t disagree more about Robert. Dude absolutely crushed it.
Strife
2024-08-23 15:01:46 +0000 UTCIf I only say you're wrong.. I'm just trying to be funny with my curtness 😎 and I don't want to write an essay. It's a lot easier to debate someone you're actually speaking with as opposed to by texting. But it is what it is. All good
James Bottas
2024-08-23 14:18:26 +0000 UTCI love this episode and I think Picards storyline retrospectively improves Best of Both Worlds and gives you more of an idea about what was actually happening to him as Locutus which isn't necessarily conveyed in those episodes.
Alan F
2024-08-23 14:00:39 +0000 UTC@DG I’m not forgetting it, to the contrary it literally proves the point. The episode doesn’t “need” a gripes and groans section, it’s an excellent episode. Once we started the segment though, we had a great deal to say, because that’s how we enjoy talking about the media we love. We’ve come to learn not everyone enjoys dissecting the show in the way that we do, which is why we are putting it in its own segment, so people who aren’t into that can skip it. Disagreeing with what we are saying is perfectly fine and encouraged. I love discussing with different opinions, but people only saying we are “wrong” or saying we shouldn’t do the segment at all are ironically proving the need for the segment.
Josh (Target Audience)
2024-08-23 13:15:19 +0000 UTCI don’t see any reason to do that
Josh (Target Audience)
2024-08-23 13:06:03 +0000 UTCI like that separation as well. To me there is discussing the episode and then there is critiquing an episode. It also comes across a bit tongue in cheek or "if I have to critique something it's this" kind of thing this way so I like it.
s0rd3z
2024-08-23 12:31:12 +0000 UTCThey didn't fix this until much later when they get rid of the pips and use what appears to be sideways chevrons
D Jammers
2024-08-23 11:15:07 +0000 UTCIt's 47 now, it got adjusted for inflation.
Lincynity
2024-08-23 11:13:04 +0000 UTCFair enough, I’ll take 2 out of 3
Josh (Target Audience)
2024-08-23 11:10:17 +0000 UTCHis absence doesn't need explaining. Just like every other character that skips an episode doesn't need to be explained unless them being there would impact the plot and the writer doesn't want it to. They're just doing other stuff off-screen
Lincynity
2024-08-23 10:47:34 +0000 UTCJosh, I'm with you on Jack Crusher and Worf's parents, but you gotta take the L on that Robert opinion. The actor was great!
kevin coleman
2024-08-23 10:22:00 +0000 UTC*Prior to this episode, he was just Miles O'Brien.
Jovet
2024-08-23 08:27:58 +0000 UTCTo this day I'm still trying to figure out how Sergey identified him as an enlisted man.
Jovet
2024-08-23 08:07:40 +0000 UTCDammit, Goss, why don't you send in your own Big Voice Guy...?
Jovet
2024-08-23 08:04:03 +0000 UTC@Target Audience You could write them down, set them aside concealed, and then bring them back out at the end. And then decide if you want to keep your grade or change it, before you reveal them to us and each other.
Jovet
2024-08-23 08:02:53 +0000 UTCNah, all the guest actors were fine. Even David Tristan Birkin (René).
Jovet
2024-08-23 08:00:37 +0000 UTCWhat was that about Robert and Jean-Luc, and a french kiss on the cheek?
BaNkR17
2024-08-23 07:57:10 +0000 UTC@JD Nevesytrof Seconded. Timothy won the comments.
Jovet
2024-08-23 07:56:28 +0000 UTC@Paul Agreed. What Beverly said matters too: Wesley finally has come to terms with his father's death. How many decades did that take?
Jovet
2024-08-23 07:54:04 +0000 UTCBeen a while since I had seen this one. I was thinking they both DID get drunk, but I guess not.
Jovet
2024-08-23 07:53:08 +0000 UTCI don't mind it. The name of the episode is "Family", after all.
Jovet
2024-08-23 07:49:05 +0000 UTCI don't believe that Alex and Josh should be blasted from orbit for their opinions. As long as their reactions are genuine, they're fine. But, they can still be just flat-out wrong. That is okay—nobody is 100% right or perfect, just as no episode will be, either. One of the reasons for "being wrong" could be many of us have had 30+ to mull over and dissect these stories, and it's brand new to them. Another reason could be that they seem to like to focus on the production itself and not the details of what is actually going on in the story. Sometimes they notice details and sometimes they don't. Again—30 years on may be quite different for them, too.
Jovet
2024-08-23 07:46:53 +0000 UTCYep. He's a brand new dad. Was just trying to record something. Expected to record more and figure out how best to do that as he went along. Sorta like doing a reaction channel... Except he never got the chance to make any more.
Jovet
2024-08-23 07:38:41 +0000 UTC“So, my brother is a human being after all.” — Robert Picard
Jovet
2024-08-23 07:37:41 +0000 UTCThat's also why the rest of the room is empty. The "recorder" only recorded Jack.
Jovet
2024-08-23 07:34:26 +0000 UTCOnly if they're inventing gripes for the sake of having gripes...
Jovet
2024-08-23 07:33:50 +0000 UTCTrue, true. My twin brother and I probably could not be more different.
Jovet
2024-08-23 07:33:16 +0000 UTCOdd isn’t it, even though you know it is going to happen things like that still get you
AzoriusMage
2024-08-23 07:27:44 +0000 UTCMy favorite episode this season and top 10 overall. Picard fight scene is epic and will enrich the character going forward
Keith Capirano
2024-08-23 07:12:29 +0000 UTCI am impressed by how many references you picked up on... maybe you guys are paying attention to the episodes... lol. Great reaction!
Stevtrek
2024-08-23 06:19:34 +0000 UTCThis one always hit harder as I grew up. Relationship with a sibling when you're ten isn't the same as when you're forty, so suddenly the scenes brought the feels outta me.
Firekrys FWO
2024-08-23 05:19:36 +0000 UTCI kinda agree that you guys seem to be trying to full up the gripes section more than you naturally I would....but it doesn't bother me.
Greg Quinn
2024-08-23 04:44:25 +0000 UTCMiniatureizer....
Greg Quinn
2024-08-23 04:42:09 +0000 UTCSo Crushers dad's delivery worked for me because he is a holographic recording. He intentionally isn't looking at Wesley because he was looking at the camera (or whatever) and not Wesley. And I think that's the main reason he looks "wooden".
Greg Quinn
2024-08-23 04:37:46 +0000 UTCThis is much better
Phil Ken Sebben
2024-08-23 04:32:38 +0000 UTC1 thing I'd tweak with that is about helping with his research. Makes it sound like "here's my kid who died, have fun dissecting". Taking Lal's body to Maddox to try and find the exact cause of her death, that works for me.
Timothy Nikiforovs
2024-08-23 04:30:14 +0000 UTCWow, I thought this would be double S with all this emotional-babble lore drop. Alex is OK, but Josh probably has a head injury, maybe take him to the clinic. On to the next episode.
MrDeadstu
2024-08-23 03:55:15 +0000 UTCIt doesn't seem inauthentic to me. I don't think it's so much cliched as it is just how a lot of parents are. I think they're playing it like very earnest parents who don't take their adopted son for granted. I like that they're Russian because every human we meet shouldn't have the same accent.. but maybe the accents don't work for everyone.. I was just very surprised that Josh took them mostly for comic relief, it seemed
James Bottas
2024-08-23 03:18:07 +0000 UTCIt certainly hit me harder this time than the last time I watched this episode (probably around 25 years ago).
Collin Freeman
2024-08-23 03:09:25 +0000 UTCI'd liked the purpose of them being there, and the scene in his quarters was good. But their portrayals, were to cliche and stereotyped for my taste in most of their scenes.
Collin Freeman
2024-08-23 03:08:24 +0000 UTCI agree for the most part. I liked Robert Kemp, and Samantha Eggar was fine, but the rest - meh. And I know Theodore Bikel was a well respected, accomplished actor, but his talent was wasted on this part.
Collin Freeman
2024-08-23 03:04:42 +0000 UTCNot defensive of the episode, I just feel it doesn’t work for the flow of the discussion
Phil Ken Sebben
2024-08-23 03:01:09 +0000 UTCSo: talking about Brent Spiner not being in this episode, of I were a writer I would pitch that Data took a trip to Daystrom and gave Lal’s body to Cmdr Maddox to help his research to explain his absence
Phil Ken Sebben
2024-08-23 03:00:25 +0000 UTCI'm saying it is an old trope, cliche, and a stereotype that didn't need to find its way into a Star Trek episode. A little too obvious and over the top for my taste. In the context of this episode, I find it to be playing to the lowest common denominator - "We want some levity and comedic schtick, so for fun, let's introduce his parents as (fill in stereotype)." Was that really necessary? It might work for other shows, but I think its misplaced and somewhat poor taste for Star Trek. For me, comedy in Star Trek is fine, but like its drama, I expect it be above average. How about the same parents but not played as cliches and stereotypes. I guess I am looking at this 1990 episode through 2024 eyes.
Collin Freeman
2024-08-23 03:00:19 +0000 UTCI agree about the actor playing Jack Crusher, though I think Worf's parents were good and I liked Robert's actor. I can understand your gripe about Worf's storyline, but personally I prefer it this way - it feels more subtle and more realistic to me, with Worf's line "I am glad you are here" doing more than a whole schmaltzy speech would.
Steven Linden
2024-08-23 02:52:46 +0000 UTC“They took everything I was…they used me to kill…I couldn’t stop them. I should have been able to stop them…” Best scene in the episode. I cried. So heartbreaking.
Chris S.
2024-08-23 02:43:51 +0000 UTCFor sure. I actually find it really touching, but also agree with Alex-- it didn't hit as hard...
Nathan Billington
2024-08-23 02:29:45 +0000 UTCAlso, I like that "Gripes and Groans" are separate, personally. I think a lot of people can become defensive over their favorite episodes, only natural. Sometimes, they might want to skip over negativity surrounding the discussion and just hear what you both liked about it, if anything.
Paul
2024-08-23 02:27:15 +0000 UTCThere are episodes I like more than Family in the future, many more, however up to now S4E2, it's my favorite episode of all of Star Trek. S+ is proper. The Picard breaking down is absolutely brutal, picturing yourself in that kind of environment. You're successful, you've met every challenge in your life head on and overcome it. And then come the Borg. The one challenge Picard couldn't overcome, and him coping with the fact that, as his brother says, he is just human being after all.
Paul
2024-08-23 02:13:06 +0000 UTCThey both go hand in hand for me. The fact it's just a guy speaking to his son is perfect, and why it hits me so hard.
Paul
2024-08-23 02:09:36 +0000 UTCFully agreed. Felt like a real human being speaking to his son, not an actor trying to overdo emotions.
Paul
2024-08-23 02:08:07 +0000 UTC"Well, my brother is human after all." - One of my favorite lines of the whole series, which works on so many levels and packs a hell of a punch with where it's placed.
Dan Halstead
2024-08-23 02:04:15 +0000 UTCI agree, I think a natural flow of dialogue is more authentic and just works better. Having it divided into sections just means you feel the need to fill up each section, sometimes more than is warranted.
Dan Halstead
2024-08-23 02:02:20 +0000 UTCNot to mention Josh from A to C
DG
2024-08-23 01:41:21 +0000 UTCMy predominant feeling about the Wesley plotline in this episode is that it is Jack Crusher more than the actor playing him who lacks skills as an on camera performer.
DG
2024-08-23 01:36:38 +0000 UTCI'm usually with the guy's takes on most episodes, but hey, when I'm not, this is my Groan & Gripe section
James Bottas
2024-08-23 01:32:26 +0000 UTCJeremy Kemp was also in a well regarded episode of Space:1999 called Voyager's Return (which coincidently was going to be the pilot title of Star Trek Phase Two, which eventually became TMP) On the rotating SHOUT! Live stream on YouTube his TNG appearance always comes up in the chat.
Mike Rogers
2024-08-23 01:31:16 +0000 UTCReally just an excellent episode of the show, and you're not gonna believe this, but it's not even in the top 6 for season 4. OK, real talk I'd probably say it's my number 3, but that's not necessarily set in stone. There are a couple yet that are more impactful for me. To get the B and C plots out of the way, I'm mixed on the Wesley plot. It's certainly the weakest part of the episode, but it fits the theme. I think considering this is the last time he'll hear his father say something to him he hasn't heard before, I think Wil did a decent job in that scene. As for the guy playing Jack, yeah he does seem like some guy off the street reading a prepared speech into a camera, but then most people's dads are just "some guy off a street", and the character was reading a prepared speech into a camera. Does that mean it was the best choice for the director to make? Maybe not. it was OK though. I don't really have a problem with Worf's subplot though. As someone who had eastern European grandparents around their age in the 90s, they were pretty spot on. Perhaps that's a little anachronistic given the show is set almost 400 years after it aired, but I understand where they're coming from. Worf is no doubt correct that they'll never really understand what his discommendation means to him, and I think that's a crucial part of that story. They deflect with humorous stories about Worf's childhood or geeking out over the Enterprise, but that's because they don't know how to approach the subject with Worf. The scene where Sergey pulls Geordi aside to talk, or in 10 Forward, tells us it's hard for them too. They know they don't understand what Worf is going through, but they want to help, and they don't know how. All they know how to do in the end is let him know that no matter what, he's still their son. Picard's story is the real meat of the episode obviously, and I think Robert is pretty pivotal to that. Obviously Picard spends a ton of this episode with the whole "I'm fine" routine every time someone asks about his experience with the borg. That goes back to Spock saying the crew can't see the captain as anything less than perfect. But he needed to get his guilt and self doubt off his chest, and Robert saw that. Now obviously his rivalry with Picard wasn't manufactured just to make him open up. Those are decades old disagreements, and there's a healthy dose of resentment Robert also had to get off his chest, so arguably they helped each other. But despite feeling Jean Luc abandoned their family's heritage, and probably feeling alone in his own house in his desire to preserve tradition, in the end he puts those feelings aside. He uses their troubled past to push his brother into facing his pain, because he knew that's what he needed, and because he knew he belonged on the Enterprise, even if Robert himself doesn't much approve of his career choice. And then at the end, even though he had shown disapproval of Rene heading down the same path as his brother, telling Marie to "let him dream" shows he's not going to stand in the way of his son's choices. Even if he comes across as an ass for a lot of the episode, in the end Robert chooses the well being of his family over his own wishes. To me that says a lot about his character. So I'm with Alex on this one. S tier.
Timothy Nikiforovs
2024-08-23 01:18:10 +0000 UTCI should note also that it seemed early on that Josh himself was unsure whether this episode's discussion needed a Gripes section, something he seems to have forgotten now. Also, I preferred the channel's format when all the ranking was confined until after the end of the season. In my opinion, such measurements within the actual immediate post-viewing context of the reviews tend to take the emphasis from the subtlety and discussion of the analysis (of which there has always been thankfully plenty on this channel). Now it becomes too much about the grade. On the other hand, maybe 42 really is the meaning of life.
DG
2024-08-23 01:14:19 +0000 UTC"Don't call me sir, I used to WORK for a living" is a very old, very classic joke that enlisted personnel in any military still cherish.
JD Nevesytrof
2024-08-23 01:07:26 +0000 UTCThis comment is more than 3 lines long, didn't read
JD Nevesytrof
2024-08-23 00:58:39 +0000 UTCAgreed, so say we all
Nathan Billington
2024-08-23 00:51:55 +0000 UTCthis show was perfect and there were never any flaws and any discussion of things that could be better is heresy
James Bottas
2024-08-23 00:50:35 +0000 UTCThis 100. They wanted him to know that he had their support, even if they didn't understand the details
Manny Fleurmond
2024-08-23 00:36:01 +0000 UTCYour opinion has been duly noted, but my original take stands. I much prefer the free flowing conversation from before. The segment format makes the discussion feel forced.
Phil Ken Sebben
2024-08-23 00:27:03 +0000 UTCIf you find the way Alex and Josh react and discuss film to be so strange-- soak it in, learn from it. I guarantee it's such a fuller, more satisfying way to go through life, to openly examine and critique and wonder at art, film, music, whatever.
Nathan Billington
2024-08-23 00:18:02 +0000 UTCNot that this really matters, but according to my information, the third season wrapped in late April 1990. Season 4 began filming on July 9, 1990.
Tom Occhipinti
2024-08-23 00:17:09 +0000 UTCLike, if your worldview is so polarized into 'love and agreement = morally good' and 'disagreement and critique and criticism = morally bad'... that's just... such a empty, colorless, sterilized, flavorless way to live life. Me and my friends love film and we pretty much chat about things we like and don't like, just like Alex and Josh. And my buddies disagree with me, and it doesn't mean that they or I are 'wrong' and 'hate' the thing we're discussing-- we're discussing it because we love it. It absolutely floors me that this doesn't make sense to so many of you.
Nathan Billington
2024-08-23 00:13:22 +0000 UTCI don't know if you guys get these kinds of comments on every episode, but JEEZE. I already basically wrote this already in response to someone else, but to belabor the point: Alex and Josh are two dudes who love film, and people who love film love talking all about it, positives and negatives. Talking about things they don't like isn't "undeserved blow back" or make them big bad meanies. Lol. Like... calm down, go make some friends who have different opinions than you and go to some parties and chat about shows or movies you love. I guarantee you that you will never find a circle of people standing around like robots saying "this show was perfect and there were never any flaws and any discussion of things that could be better is heresy," "agreed, so say we all."
Nathan Billington
2024-08-23 00:08:54 +0000 UTCSorry Phil, I just think comments like that is just... such a bad take. Alex and Josh are two guys who love film and love talking about it. They're not doing things just 'for the sake of a new segment.' Like... have you ever just chatted about a show you love at a party with a bunch of people? Everyone talks about things they wish were different or would do differently. That's part of the love of the medium. It would be so freaking weird to imagine that group of people standing around like robots going "this episode was perfect and I have no thoughts to the contrary," "agreed, say we all." The more I love a movie or TV, the more thoughts I have, and the more criticisms I have... because I love it. And that's what these guys are doing. They're chatting about a show they genuinely love.
Nathan Billington
2024-08-22 23:55:10 +0000 UTCAs Josh's sockpuppet account I'm afraid you're not allowed ;)
JD Nevesytrof
2024-08-22 23:50:19 +0000 UTCWait, I could be talking mad shit in a Discord? brb.
Dor
2024-08-22 23:44:08 +0000 UTCJust checked their resumes and they do both look reasonably accomplished. Their performances here are pretty questionable, but to be fair the material they were working with was not amazing.
Dor
2024-08-22 23:42:32 +0000 UTCI refuse to believe that Picard fit all his clothes into that tiny overnight bag!
Vagon Khan
2024-08-22 23:40:28 +0000 UTCJust show them all the shit I gave you a few weeks ago on a BSG episode then, hah.
Dor
2024-08-22 23:39:40 +0000 UTCThat’s fair, we give warning in the video that the segment won’t be everyone’s cup of tea.
Josh (Target Audience)
2024-08-22 23:28:28 +0000 UTCMay Blessed Saint Ernie look kindly down upon you then...from the STAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRS
JD Nevesytrof
2024-08-22 23:27:16 +0000 UTCIt will be in every episode, but feel free to only watch it for the ones you do not like
Josh (Target Audience)
2024-08-22 23:26:08 +0000 UTCYeah, Sins didn't get nowhere near this kind of blowback.
JD Nevesytrof
2024-08-22 23:20:03 +0000 UTCThe costume department probably had a tupperware container with a bunch of random rank insignia and just pinned on whatever they grabbed first "Is that the right rank for his character?" "The fuck should I know dude, nobody tells me anything"
Timothy Nikiforovs
2024-08-22 23:13:48 +0000 UTCThere's three of them, they're called the comments section, the patron chat and the Discord ;)
JD Nevesytrof
2024-08-22 23:12:28 +0000 UTCI agree with this.
JD Nevesytrof
2024-08-22 23:12:08 +0000 UTCComment of the week
JD Nevesytrof
2024-08-22 23:11:23 +0000 UTCTed Bikel and Georgia Brown are better actors than the series deserves.
JD Nevesytrof
2024-08-22 23:11:04 +0000 UTCNo no no! I thought he was gone, it's a gesture of relief and welcome, not slander!
JGoss
2024-08-22 23:10:59 +0000 UTCFully agree, I think Jack gave a perfectly fine performance. He was nervous and stiff because this is his first go at this, and also because he was using one of those really old Kodak Holosnap 3600s where you have to keep super still and stare straight ahead or it won't pick you up the whole time.
JD Nevesytrof
2024-08-22 23:10:32 +0000 UTCDammit Goss I will not hear your Ernie slanderson.
JD Nevesytrof
2024-08-22 23:07:44 +0000 UTCI dropped my keys in a bucket of red paint
Phil Ken Sebben
2024-08-22 23:07:34 +0000 UTCThat Jack Crusher was a handsome square-jawed young man, for certain. Twenty-three skiddoo!
JD Nevesytrof
2024-08-22 23:07:12 +0000 UTCWould have to be in Australia/Southern Hemisphere, considering the episode takes place in early January. Then again that means the vineyard should be covered in snow, so either global warming did it's thing, or they have weather control tech in the 24th century.
Timothy Nikiforovs
2024-08-22 23:07:11 +0000 UTCIt's like when my friends called Shakespeare "groovy."
Michael Metrick
2024-08-22 23:06:02 +0000 UTCYou sayin' we won't have old doting Jewish moms and dads in the future, Collin? WHAT ARE YOU ACTUALLY SAYING COLLIN
JD Nevesytrof
2024-08-22 23:05:54 +0000 UTCLike maybe C and below
Timothy Nikiforovs
2024-08-22 23:04:58 +0000 UTCThis is one of the smallest technical problems I've ever seen in TNG though.
JD Nevesytrof
2024-08-22 23:04:50 +0000 UTCI can handle nitpicking but tearing Alex’s newly anointed favorite episode a new one for the sake of a new segment is not great content. I’m not feeling GnG so far.
Phil Ken Sebben
2024-08-22 23:04:15 +0000 UTCCaptain Solo, you'll be pleased to know I just helped the cow give birth!
JD Nevesytrof
2024-08-22 23:04:05 +0000 UTCThat’s called the comments section
Josh (Target Audience)
2024-08-22 23:04:03 +0000 UTCYou can tell this subplot had cuts, and it did. The plot itself feels like an afterthought, and just isn't as compelling as Picard and Worf.
JGoss
2024-08-22 23:04:00 +0000 UTCMaybe save “gripes and groans” for episodes that really deserve it and fold in any minor criticisms into the overall review.
Column Meanie
2024-08-22 22:56:37 +0000 UTCI consider these episodes as a trilogy. Picard doesn't come to terms with his, well rape until this episode. But hey guys, how about a gripes and groans segment on you? 🤣🤣🤣
Michael Metrick
2024-08-22 22:54:40 +0000 UTCAlways felt this episode could’ve done without the Wesley subplot. I do like the content but I feel like it should’ve been saved for a future episode where they can put a little more emphasis on it. Remove the Wesley subplot and you have 3 more scenes to give to Worf and his parents or Picard and his family.
Column Meanie
2024-08-22 22:54:23 +0000 UTCI place it 3rd, behind 1 around the middle, and 1 near the end.
Timothy Nikiforovs
2024-08-22 22:50:08 +0000 UTCS+ This is my second favorite episode of the season.
Just another Red Shirt
2024-08-22 22:47:39 +0000 UTCSecond that
Timothy Nikiforovs
2024-08-22 22:44:49 +0000 UTCSorry guys, but I'm not really feeling the Gripes section. I understand wanting to split off complaints to a separate section, but this felt to me like criticism for the sake of content rather than an organic discussion about what didn't work.
JGoss
2024-08-22 22:25:15 +0000 UTCAs I mentioned in the takes, when you posted that you were watching this episode, I literally just finished watching an episode of Columbo from the late '70s with Worf's father as the main guest star and Robért's wife as HIS wife. Hilariously I recognized him right away, but I had to look her up to realize why she was so familiar. And then a VERY young Jamie Lee Curtis showed up and knocked me for a loop. The last episode I watched, Kim Cattrall was in, and if not for her name in the credits, I wouldn't have recognized her, but she threw me for a loop because I was expect a child and she was in her 20s?!?! And that was after Enterprise-C Captain Rachel Garrett's actor made an appearance. Watching that show is WILD for this reason alone. Another fun one was reoccuring guest star Jack Cassidy, who I thought always did a good job, but also looked strangely familiar, only to find out his (illegitemate) grand-daughter is Katie Cassidy from Arrow, and suddenly I realized why the man's cheekbones always stood out to me.
Nolan
2024-08-22 22:18:39 +0000 UTCI watched this rerun as a kid, and Picard’s storyline at first was the one I didn’t get into. Though was surprised and moved by the fight. Had a crush on Wesley and was happy with his performance. And I think the scene was about Wesley, so I think that’s why they just wanted a plain performance from the Dad. Thought it was better towards the end of the speech. BUT I loved the Wolf storyline. I didn’t see the episodes in order, and when I first saw this episode, I only thought of Wolf as getting hit all the time and being the butt of jokes. So this made me like Wolf a bit. And the campiness of the acting was just something you kinda gloss over at the time.
Sainjl
2024-08-22 22:09:53 +0000 UTC1:08:35 Josh, consider that the Enterprise wasn't *supposed* or planned to go to Earth anytime soon. Worf telling his parents by correspondence is perfectly appropriate.
Jovet
2024-08-22 22:03:09 +0000 UTCYou are old. Seems many of us are. i had to look them up...
CraziFuzzy
2024-08-22 21:59:32 +0000 UTC1:05:10 Couldn't disagree more. I think your expectations are pretty out of whack, Josh.
Jovet
2024-08-22 21:59:08 +0000 UTCI think Worf doesn't feel as broken as you might think he should because he knows that his discommendation was not a result of his own failing, but the failing of the Klingon government. It 'sucks', but he doesn't have a deep down desire to dwell on it. His outburst of 'must suffer it alone' is honestly how he feels he SHOULD behave as that was part of his agreement to keep the empire 'functioning.'
CraziFuzzy
2024-08-22 21:58:46 +0000 UTC1:03:10 Worf seems to have a chip on his shoulder that his parents *can't* understand him.
Jovet
2024-08-22 21:56:01 +0000 UTCA lot of shows will make a character get drunk to say something very emotional that the character normally wouldn’t say. A way to make it seem more real, as Picard wouldn’t break down like that sober.
Joe Concepts
2024-08-22 21:52:08 +0000 UTCAt 1:07:11, discussing the acting/directing choices of Wesley's dad, a great way to summarize what I think you're saying is this: At the end of the day, you (the director) are telling a story, and making a point. Is the point that you're trying to sell what an awkward video recording from an actual dad to their newborn would be, or are you selling the emotional journey of Wesley's arc?
Nathan Billington
2024-08-22 21:50:32 +0000 UTCI never saw the point of Picard considering the other job anything that we were supposed to worry about. It was just used to show us how much he has really been traumatized.
Joe Concepts
2024-08-22 21:50:30 +0000 UTCI also gave this an A. A+ really. The kid, and I feel like there is too many endings in a way which kind of holds it back. 3 different sub plots and if they cut just one to give the others more time it would maybe put it over the top. The Jack Crusher critique I get, that scene for personal reasons still gets me. But he is a pretty vanilla Chad NPC.
s0rd3z
2024-08-22 21:50:19 +0000 UTCHa, yes any of those terms sort of annoy me, too, fellow old timer.
Joe Concepts
2024-08-22 21:48:36 +0000 UTCPicard breaking down hit hard
AzoriusMage
2024-08-22 21:44:53 +0000 UTC52:12 Right before Picard broke down after their roll in the mud, Picard called him Robert (English pronunciation) not Robert (French pronunciation). Pretty sure that's a flub on Stewart. Whoops. But obviously they let it go and didn't re-shoot it just for that.
Jovet
2024-08-22 21:44:18 +0000 UTCI agree. I'm fine with criticism of all kinds but giving negative criticism it's own special section gives it additional weight. I've never minded the nit-picking, even if I don't agree but this feels like "here's the part where we're trying to provoke the Trek fans and if you don't like it, don't watch." I'm not sure that's an ideal message to send to viewers if you want them to stick around.
Lincynity
2024-08-22 21:42:19 +0000 UTCI don't believe that "S+" is a thing.
Jovet
2024-08-22 21:36:58 +0000 UTCThis one has always been in my top ten list, bear in mind I don't rank my top ten in order. It always hits me in the gut. Great reaction and analysis. I knew you guys would love it.
Monty Crawford
2024-08-22 21:34:49 +0000 UTC35:04 I guess in the future they still didn't figure out the difference between jealousy and envy...
Jovet
2024-08-22 21:26:20 +0000 UTCClearly it's progressive confusion.. I get more and more confused the longer an interaction goes lol. Seriously though. This episode didn't deserve a Gripes section, in my humble opinion. Just wish it found that chink in your armour you clearly had on ;)
James Bottas
2024-08-22 21:21:36 +0000 UTCNow I can recommend The Enemy Below with a great performance by Worf's stepdad, given your deep abiding love of submarine films.
Alan Thompson
2024-08-22 21:17:14 +0000 UTCI was going off of you saying you were confused! Hahah
Josh (Target Audience)
2024-08-22 21:16:57 +0000 UTCTo me, how Worf dealt with them is 100% Worf and his glowing look at the end spoke far more than any lines Dorny could deliver world have
JD Nevesytrof
2024-08-22 21:12:24 +0000 UTCI mean, surely what you fill the Gripes section with has some bearing on your rankings. An episode that goes all out for emotional writing and performances, which you knock both the writing and performances in and say it did not make you emotional which was it's entire goal.... is an A? It's art so no one's opinion is wrong. What I'm trying to say is I have my doubts that you'd have given it an A if you had the discussion first
James Bottas
2024-08-22 21:12:11 +0000 UTCNothing positive or negative we said was out of obligation to fill out the video, we don’t do that. We just talk until we are done.
Josh (Target Audience)
2024-08-22 21:09:17 +0000 UTCDor, you gotta stop agreeing with me; people are going to think your my burner account
Josh (Target Audience)
2024-08-22 21:08:12 +0000 UTCThanks to the recent fan mail haul, now you guys also have "all the specs and diagrams at home"
Timothy Nikiforovs
2024-08-22 21:07:59 +0000 UTCI'm not confused bro. You're confused ;)
James Bottas
2024-08-22 21:06:35 +0000 UTCI think it does more harm than good. People are going to listen regardless out of curiosity and I think switching it to sort of an adversarial type of divided review instead of an overall viewpoint will simply lead to more people turned off of the criticism. I'm actually seeing it happen right now
JD Nevesytrof
2024-08-22 20:58:17 +0000 UTCRegarding Worf's parents: While they do give some moments of lightness and levity, they aren't there for Worf to come to terms with or reluctantly accept. They're in the episode for the purpose of reaching out to Worf and making sure that he knows that he is not alone even though he is going through something that makes him think he should be alone. We don't need to hear anything from Worf, we already know where his head's at. Worf needed to be reminded he's got loved ones
James Bottas
2024-08-22 20:58:14 +0000 UTCYour response is why we made the new format. You’re confused because you’re focusing only on the negative things we said in the section where we say the negative things.
Josh (Target Audience)
2024-08-22 20:57:09 +0000 UTCOur initial opinion is the point of the grade. Context and time obviously changes everything. That’s why we will tier list it again at the end of the season and series
Josh (Target Audience)
2024-08-22 20:55:44 +0000 UTCI suspect that is not the reason they are doing it. They are probably doing it because they are going to criticize elements of the show and sequestering it in one section at the end allows people who only want to hear good things about Star Trek to opt out of getting their feelings hurt by turning it off. It is sort of sad that they have to do this but I understand the impulse. Regardless, I don't think inventing criticism to fill out a segment is the issue here.
Dor
2024-08-22 20:54:46 +0000 UTCYeah I was neither here nor there about Gripes and Groans after E1 but now I'm against it. I don't think there needs to be a specific all negative segment that needs to be filled out, if there's something you don't like, just fold it into the overall review so it's not an obligation to find something.
JD Nevesytrof
2024-08-22 20:51:13 +0000 UTCCould not disagree more. The monologue delivery wasn't just understated - it was totally wooden. I agree that he doesn't have to play it WAY UP in some exaggerated fashion, but this is just an actor standing there reading a queue card. Most acting styles teach the actor to start with "What does the character WANT?" What does Jack Crusher want in this scene? He wants his son-in-future to understand him and, knowing he will likely be absent through much of his childhood, to feel his father's overwhelming love and sense of bonding when looking at his newborn son. Do we get ANY of that from the actor? A smile? A laugh? Any variation in pitch or tone? I have watched hundreds of actors perform thousands of monologues in casting and I have no idea how this dude made it. Some blame goes on the director too, for letting him just stare straight ahead. Film a video like this, of this length, for a loved one and then tell me if you just STARED UNBLINKING AHEAD the whole time. No way! People look up or down when they are searching for words. He could have glanced over his shoulder briefly at his sleeping son (or to the side, or just SOMEWHERE - pick a point in the room). We may not see his surroundings but he is somewhere when he is recording this video - we could have gotten some sense of that. Literally anything. Give me anything.
Dor
2024-08-22 20:45:00 +0000 UTCBy the time Josh is done talking, Alex's reranked his tier from S+ to E ;)
JD Nevesytrof
2024-08-22 20:43:03 +0000 UTCI think his rank insignia constantly changes
Andreas Schmitt
2024-08-22 20:38:50 +0000 UTCI believe so
Josh (Target Audience)
2024-08-22 20:38:09 +0000 UTCWhich I must admit I'm a bit confused about because the gripes section was kinda the dominate part of the discussion. Just as a suggestion, I think giving your tier rankings is going to work better after the discussion. You guys have both changed your own and each other's mind about episodes by discussing, multiple times. In this case there was almost no aspect of the episode you didn't knock points off of from either writing or acting.. by the end the S+ and A seemed a bit of a head scratcher to me
James Bottas
2024-08-22 20:36:54 +0000 UTCWe gave it an S+ and an A
Josh (Target Audience)
2024-08-22 20:23:11 +0000 UTCTotally agree re: the guest actors here, they are the fly in the ointment of an otherwise glorious episode. Jeremy Kemp, who plays Robert Picard, is actually a pretty good actor who just can't hang with Patrick Stewart (who can?), but the rest - Rene, Louis, Jack Crusher, Worf's parents... yikes. All yikes.
Dor
2024-08-22 20:19:44 +0000 UTCBoy how I have to disagree with Josh here about Jack Crusher. I absolutely love the realism of how the scene is presented. Wesley primarily would have old memories and imaged ideas of what is father would be like. Memories tend not to be super realistic, and get heightened. And of course imaged aspect of your parents life would likely be distorted versions of who they actually were. By presented a realistic portrayal made, for me, it significantly more impactful. This is literally Wesley's only time seeing his father not clouded by time and the perceptions from his memories as a child. For the first time ever, he gets to see him as he truly was. Doing the sequence with in a more typical Hollywood style utterly betrays the heart of the scene. The only real heighten dramatic acting should be from Wil Wheaton in that scene. As he is the one with the heightened emotional response.
Mark Wood
2024-08-22 20:18:59 +0000 UTCFormat note: I think it would be better if you leave your letter grade until after the discussion. Rarely does a fresh instant take represent your final grade, and sometimes processing time is needed. You both had BOBW1 pegged as an A until you thought about it.
JGoss
2024-08-22 20:17:56 +0000 UTCI can’t agree with all of your gripes but I understand where you’re coming from as a modern viewer. My question is, do you think you two would’ve liked TNG had ya’ll watched it as kids (like many of us did)?
Lwaxana’s Poolboy
2024-08-22 20:14:49 +0000 UTCI blocked this episode from memory because of issues Troi would love to bother me about, but re-watched it because you guys did. My belated take is that Picard only goes on vacation if he can punch a mother fucker in the face.
Juan Tutrífor
2024-08-22 20:12:35 +0000 UTCTechnically Shades of Gray, if you're not counting stock footage
JGoss
2024-08-22 20:12:30 +0000 UTCOh shoot, I thought Ernie Anderson was done with these promos in season 3, guess not!
JGoss
2024-08-22 20:09:04 +0000 UTCman I guess I'm old because hearing things like "Chad" or "Rizz" just makes me roll my eyes lol
Derek Orr
2024-08-22 20:06:45 +0000 UTCA good troupe of actors and writers don't need the crutch of 'plot'. But as a courtesy they'll generally toss us one as a treat.
#MaxwellDidNothingWrong
2024-08-22 20:02:48 +0000 UTC1 of my few nitpicks is Worf's parents fall into an ethnic trope of being old, doting, Jewish mom and dad leaning into comedy. Also, agree with Josh about the Jack Crusher actor.
Collin Freeman
2024-08-22 20:01:51 +0000 UTCThis episode is amazing. Your takes afterwards... oooof lol. Absolute massacre. I want to go off right now, but my food will get cold
James Bottas
2024-08-22 20:00:35 +0000 UTCEverything in the episode is really good, but the Robert/Jean-luc plotline alone solidifies this as my favorite episode in the series so far. It makes me tear up when we realize that Jean-luc, despite how much he and his brother hate each other, really just needed to feel safe being protected by his big brother.
Deep Red
2024-08-22 19:59:05 +0000 UTCMan, this episode is so damn good.
Ca$hWednesday
2024-08-22 19:57:32 +0000 UTCA (very) longstanding gripe/ nitpick you missed is O'brien having the Rank Insignia of Lieutenant, but in the episode his rank is finally stated as being Chief Petty Officer.
James Knight
2024-08-22 19:55:36 +0000 UTCI feel like there only other experiences with episodic Tv was the most extreme form of reset each week, nothing ever carries over etc. But I guess for me this is more normal typical Tv style that is a balance of Episodic vs season long arcs....DS9 ends up more down the middle but this 2/3rd episodic style is perfect classic Star Trek
Derek Orr
2024-08-22 19:51:04 +0000 UTCYou guys are overdosing on the continuity nods
JGoss
2024-08-22 19:46:17 +0000 UTCWow. This episode hit me a lot more this time around.
Collin Freeman
2024-08-22 19:42:55 +0000 UTCIf you don't say "HOLY SHIT, HE HAS A FULL NAME, AND WE ARE OFFICIALLY ACKNOWLEDGING IT" at the moment, then it's missed. I don't make the rules here. 😅
JGoss
2024-08-22 19:38:42 +0000 UTCSuch an amazing episode, and also helps land the weight of the Best of Both Worlds 2-parter. It's a bold move too, to start the season itself with this totally "personal" episode that has no tacked on sci-fi plot, it's just a pure emotional drama episode. Naturally, Gene Roddenberry objected to it and said it wasn't necessary. I love Roddenberry, but it's hilarious how in retrospect everything he fought against was what made TNG and the franchise stronger and better. Season 4 really marks a transition into the Michael Pillar era where the emphasis is much more on each episode being hung on one of our major characters with more of an emotional core. TNG was already cooking in Season 3, but it truly comes into its own now. I can't wait for the reactions to come! Keep up the great work, guys. Love seeing you get emotionally invested, and there's SO many adventures to come.
ScotchBeard78
2024-08-22 19:37:41 +0000 UTClol fair
Josh (Target Audience)
2024-08-22 19:35:23 +0000 UTCWe didn’t miss it, we mention it in the Patron Takes for episode 1 (filmed after watching this)
Josh (Target Audience)
2024-08-22 19:35:13 +0000 UTCYou guys missed that your main boy O'Brien finally got his full name revealed: Miles Edward O'Brien. Prior to this episode, he was just O'Brien. He's come a long way from being "Conn" in Encounter at Farpoint
JGoss
2024-08-22 19:31:10 +0000 UTCEveryone had a tan probably from real life summer vacations prior to Season 4 beginning.
Tom Occhipinti
2024-08-22 19:30:57 +0000 UTCI'm 100% with Alex on this one. Easily in my top 5 episodes of TNG ever
Jeffrey
2024-08-22 19:27:01 +0000 UTCNICE! Josh asked for tier predictions in the live chat I NAILED the fact that Alex would go S+ (Said A+ for Josh - about to hear the commentary we'll see if he was borderline :D) S+ for me as well, Alex!
Matt Newmark
2024-08-22 19:26:49 +0000 UTCJosh wearing a hat: you may have noticed my arm is red
Phil Ken Sebben
2024-08-22 19:15:02 +0000 UTCBy far my favorite episode
Matthew Beek
2024-08-22 18:57:20 +0000 UTCSo excited for this one <3
lee
2024-08-22 18:44:11 +0000 UTCFirst episode to not have a single bridge scene.
Matt Newmark
2024-08-22 18:42:30 +0000 UTCYou guys are spoiling us with these early releases. Daily reactions from now on? 😉😉
Evan Guthrie
2024-08-22 18:41:57 +0000 UTCBUC-EES!
JD Nevesytrof
2024-08-22 18:37:14 +0000 UTCJosh’s mic is off at first but gets turned on a couple minutes in
Josh (Target Audience)
2024-08-22 18:34:49 +0000 UTCWhaaaa I must have missed something but awesome!
SinocTheHodgeheg
2024-08-22 18:34:15 +0000 UTC
