FULL DISCUSSION - Star Trek TNG S3E14 - A Matter of Perspective
Added 2024-06-09 13:49:39 +0000 UTC
Comments
Since you guys love courtroom stories may i suggest "my cousin vinny" for your july movie reaction. I will put it on the wheel if you guys havent seen it yet.
Keith Capirano
2024-06-23 08:26:50 +0000 UTCData's openly trashing, in his Data like way, Picard's painting at the start of this episode is still one of my favorite scenes of all of TNG. This episode left it's impact in the real world. "A Matter of Perspective" and it can be noted also "The Measure of a Man" are part of the University of Miami School of Law Library as law-related films1
Comrade Wireless Caller
2024-06-18 03:03:36 +0000 UTCHad to chuckle a bit at the part where you guys mention the opening painting scene “had nothing to do with the rest of the episode.” The same painting scene where three different artists had three wildly different interpretations of painting the same nude model subject… and the rest of the episode exploring three different witness account interpretations of a potential murder scene 🤭
Matt Everkoul
2024-06-12 11:50:33 +0000 UTCHonestly did not expect you to receive this episode so well. Not that it's bad, but it's just not one of those episodes that gets talked about. But I always love the fresh perspectives you bring.
Evan Guthrie
2024-06-12 02:23:25 +0000 UTCI actually rewatched this on my own while waiting for you guys to watch it, and I have to say that even before hearing your input, it was better than I had given it credit for in my memory. But I guess that was just... my perspective. *rim shot*. I remembered the gist of the ending, but not the details, and I confess being impatient for my wife to return to the room so we could finish it and see what actually happened. So obviously I like it more at 42 years of age than I did at 15, 20, or 30. Here is what I would have said before: the Rashomon plot device was a pretty stock episode format at the time, which didn't help. It was one of those types of episodes, like body swapping, that every long running show had to do at least once. Plus the whole "he said/she said" of it is the kind of melodrama that bores me to tears, and the "forehead of the week" design was IMO on the lame side here. While I would still say all of those things, I also now see how the tightness of the writing in THIS Rashomon plot did elevate the format, along with the performances of our great cast and our familiarity with the characters. And probably when I was younger, the weight of the assault accusation didn't register with me the way it does now. That said, this still isn't in the top six. Sorry, boys.
Steve Boshear
2024-06-11 19:17:08 +0000 UTCMost Patrons would probably argue that the streak of banger episodes ("Banger after banger after banger") actually begins with Q Who and see it as the fun little pallette cleanser before the main entre.
Jeffrey P
2024-06-11 17:32:24 +0000 UTCin theory innocent until proven guilty. Certainly can feel that's not always the case.
Timothy Nikiforovs
2024-06-11 12:08:44 +0000 UTCTroy seems to only good at her job when the writers need her to be.
startrekiborg
2024-06-10 20:43:52 +0000 UTCTo the point where Picard is lying to himself about his perspective and Data's factual review is unwelcome. Just like the wife.
Andreas Schmitt
2024-06-10 18:24:54 +0000 UTCWarp Reactor is also pretty honest. He's a clear fan but will also say if he doesnt enjoy an episode. Rooting for a collab hehe
Andreas Schmitt
2024-06-10 18:23:14 +0000 UTCI know it mostly from Dark Souls item tiers. so I assumed it was Japanese or just in general gaming culture ;)
Andreas Schmitt
2024-06-10 18:18:57 +0000 UTCIn other words crews werent use to all the subtle staging stuff for so many very similar but different versions in the sane scene. To get it in time and under budget. Theres a whole story about the staff thinking about emmys at this point, and moving episodes around to game the way emmys were won
paultardspambot .
2024-06-10 17:37:07 +0000 UTCmurder and presumably the credibility of his accusers shot, they never really explore whatn "really" happened in those quarters. But instead, we get the cut version of that with two technically well done scenes... that were just too far apart to really be due solely to remembering thingw differently.
paultardspambot .
2024-06-10 17:29:02 +0000 UTCApparently the TNG producers and writers loved the script but hated how "technically complex" it was to shoot, and many of them see this as the worst episode of the third season as technical limitations and the role of the wife who was supposed to play as femme fatale. We could possibly believe the Riker we know might have flirted with a married woman. The sneering, would be rapist Riker is just a cartoon character versus a riker we have known.. So in the oriignal, the two narratives, it didnt just answer the core mystery, you would start to get a sense of the "truth" of what happened. But it was directed very poorly as the assortment of directors were necessary to deal with the technical aspects of the script... but ultiately failed. In other words, what you are seeing, the good practical effects, are the cost of the episode diverging from the original script where we get a sort of "neutral view": of what happened that night. While Riker has been proven not guilty of urder
paultardspambot .
2024-06-10 17:26:47 +0000 UTCYeah I had thought about the phaser and that is a ploy hole. Never thought of the fact that there should be essentially hotel records but you're right.
Greg Quinn
2024-06-10 17:14:43 +0000 UTCThis is one of the eps I remember most from the initial airing. Love the different performances. I always think of this ep when I watch Pulp Fiction, Honey Bunny's line is slightly different each time.
Miah1138
2024-06-10 16:41:51 +0000 UTCI was shocked when I read the patreon takes and saw that so many people disliked this episode. This one has always been on my personal TNG favorites list. All the episodes on that list for me are memerable, unique, TNG in a microcosm, and something I always enjoyed re-watching as a rerun. They also are almost all regarded by the rest of the community as being middle tier, but I always enjoy them more than the big 10 that everyone has to have on their top 10 list by default, even though those 10 are no doubt objectively better. For that reason, I didn't expect you guys to like it as much as you did, but I'm glad you did. It means I'm not alone in really liking this episode, and your view and discussion helped me to appreciate it even more.
BN13
2024-06-10 09:21:35 +0000 UTCOh shit......
JGoss
2024-06-10 05:35:46 +0000 UTCIt looks like you missed the second of three facepalm meme origins from this season. The Riker facepalm. The third one is coming up soon.
JGoss
2024-06-10 05:35:05 +0000 UTCIt continues to surprise me which episodes you like and don't like. To me this is a forgettable episode. Not the worst by any measure...but just a mediocre episode I probably wouldn't bother rewatching otherwise. Honestly shocked at your enthusiasm for this one...
Aaron Wells
2024-06-10 05:31:27 +0000 UTCThese deep discussions are what set you apart from the others who just watch and react. I enjoyed your discussion and I'm glad that Star Trek is giving you joy and enriching your lives. ❤️ I love every courtroom episode. This one reminds me of how fortunate we are to live in a place where we are innocent until proven guilty. Thank you for the great discussion. 😃
T’Pynyn of Vulcan
2024-06-10 04:13:59 +0000 UTCReally appreciate your discussion of the unreliability of memory. This isn't one of my favorite episodes, but I do really like the gimmick of the multiple versions of the story, and the point it makes about the faultiness of eyewitness testimony. And yes, you guys should absolutely watch Rashomon - although honestly, I think there's adiscussion to be had about people missing the point of that movie. Which would in itself be an interesting discussion to have here!
Steven Linden
2024-06-10 03:22:21 +0000 UTCCame here to say this!
Steven Linden
2024-06-10 03:17:15 +0000 UTCThis is why I love watching these with you guys. I always thought this was an “ok” episode. But the way you guys took it step-by-step, and WHY it was good, changed my mind believe it or not! I guess my previous feel is because I know whats coming ahead, but still you guys changed my mind, and I rate it higher than I used to. Well done!
Chris S.
2024-06-10 01:55:29 +0000 UTCYou didn't change my mind on this episode. I find it a better than average episode, with big errors in regards to some details. If Riker had arranged for quarters on the planet, there would be records of it. If he'd fired a phaser, Chief O'Brian would have seen it when he beamed aboard and the transporter log would have shown it. Still, as I said, I think it is a better than average episode.
Jeffrey
2024-06-10 01:32:49 +0000 UTCI enjoyed your reaction to this ep much more than the ep itself but I knew you would be all about it, I know how much court episodes are your jam. I think you are going to love the next one .. I am really interested to see if I am right. did the talk make me like it more, prob not. but I think as I rewatch these and see your reactions I get a cool perspective. also some of these that were meh to me when I was 19 are much better now in my 40s
Lt Dan I scream
2024-06-10 01:11:01 +0000 UTCEnjoy this time fellas! Enjoying peak television with a friend. Good times! Also, this episode for me marks a creative burst for the series, reflected in the opening scene with that score. As an artist, you have these moments where you have a relaxed inner peace that allows your creativity to just flow. You can tell this is a time when the staff was in a good place and wanted to tell a story or two or twenty. This is one of my re-watch favorites. I enjoy this kind of story but also the time-travel/super being/alien species type episodes. A good holodeck episode now and then is great as well.
Chris Mickelson
2024-06-10 00:52:38 +0000 UTCI like this ep too but I think their reactions is because unlike us old farts they haven’t seen this gimmick used on so many shows including the aforementioned Odd Couple. I mean it was good but defector was better. It’s all a matter of opinion. Well until they get to nutrek .
Scarpad’s Domain
2024-06-10 00:32:41 +0000 UTCMy taste is so counter to the prevailing wisdom, I got bored with Defector and turned it off after about 25 minutes. My top list will not mirror anyone else's for sure
Ken R
2024-06-09 23:49:39 +0000 UTCI liked it as well! There are a lot of episodes that get like 6. something on IMDb, that I like, especially from DS9 and VOY as well. Different strokes, I guess.
Captain Proton
2024-06-09 23:02:15 +0000 UTCYep, my favorite episode isn't necessarily the best one they made, either!
Jovet
2024-06-09 22:28:10 +0000 UTCurbandictionary exists.
Jovet
2024-06-09 22:27:38 +0000 UTCIn all my years I'd never realized this myself. Duuuuh! Neat indeed!
Jovet
2024-06-09 22:24:16 +0000 UTCYuuuuuuup!
Jovet
2024-06-09 22:23:44 +0000 UTCExcellent info!
Jovet
2024-06-09 22:17:33 +0000 UTCThe art scene at the beginning actually does have a thematic purpose. All of the artists are looking at the same source, but all of them have completely different interpretations. In the same way, each of us has our own "artistic" interpretation of reality through our own memory.
BN13
2024-06-09 22:12:31 +0000 UTCI think Josh would LOVE it.
Andrea R
2024-06-09 22:06:10 +0000 UTCAnd if I can suggest something, just react to Roshomon and don't bother with a poll if you really are into the idea. It probably has a 100% on rotten tomatoes.
Ken R
2024-06-09 21:59:59 +0000 UTCHeard of it but haven’t seen it!
Josh (Target Audience)
2024-06-09 21:56:20 +0000 UTCHahahahah
Josh (Target Audience)
2024-06-09 21:56:05 +0000 UTCThe best TV use of this story mechanic was The Odd Couple going through three different versions of a party that prompted a divorce. "A Night To Dismember" Its on Paramount I think.
Ken R
2024-06-09 21:53:44 +0000 UTCVantage point 2008- Dennis Quaid, Matthew Fox, Forest Whitaker, William Hurt and Sigourney Weaver
Andrea R
2024-06-09 21:51:40 +0000 UTCAs I said in my takes, I think this is an average TNG episode/. But it is also one of my favorites. There are technically better episodes of TNG, but ones like these are the ones I think of when I think of the series.
Nolan
2024-06-09 21:43:22 +0000 UTCI'm glad you read my take. As an older guy, I was guessing what 'mid' meant.
Matthew Riley
2024-06-09 21:42:32 +0000 UTCThere is an English dub of the film as well. I bought it a few weeks ago and watched it. I opted for the Dub, because I assumed that's how most mainstream western audiences first saw it, perhaps even those who were inspired to write this episode, but also because I was so tired from work, I didn't think I could manage subtitles just then. Will rewatch with subs eventually.
Nolan
2024-06-09 21:38:45 +0000 UTCJosh and Alex, have either of you seen Vantage Point? Great cast and basically a whole movie of this episode.
Andrea R
2024-06-09 21:35:31 +0000 UTCI agree with you guys on this one. When I do a "best of" re-watch of the series, I always watch this one. There's a good episode of Gilligan's Island where they are each remembering an incident with a Japanese soldier on the island that plays out very similarly to this that I also liked a lot.
Stevtrek
2024-06-09 20:33:01 +0000 UTCGo watch "Rashomon." Josh will love it.
Aramis Calcutt
2024-06-09 20:29:50 +0000 UTCWas that the vampire episode of X-files?
Just another Red Shirt
2024-06-09 19:30:35 +0000 UTCI used to know word for word Data’s art critique and used it in art class. Regardless of the painting
Phil Ken Sebben
2024-06-09 19:20:07 +0000 UTCThis was actually our background for many episodes of Season 1 making its return!
Josh (Target Audience)
2024-06-09 19:17:05 +0000 UTCA cool detail I really like in this episode is in Riker's deposition he gets caught with Mrs. Apgar and says "This is all a terrible mistake." Then in Mrs. Apgar's testimony Riker tells Dr. Apgar that if he reports on this incident it would be a "terrible mistake." You pointed out that they had been drinking and in the adrenaline of the situation you can really believe how she could have remembered things that way. Also the Data/Picard scene Alex mentioned that sets up how the holodeck was able to convert Kreiger waves because the program was created using original schematics. Just really great story writing.
Trouty McTroutTrout
2024-06-09 19:03:01 +0000 UTCYes I realized this later on, pretty neat!
Josh (Target Audience)
2024-06-09 18:39:50 +0000 UTCYou guys mentioned how the painting scene at the beginning doesn't tie in. It completely ties in as Picard and there other two painters are all looking at the same model and interpreting their own artistic take on the subject based upon their own perspectives.
Vagon Khan
2024-06-09 18:34:53 +0000 UTC16:11 One of my favorite X-Files episodes is along this same line.
Jovet
2024-06-09 18:05:10 +0000 UTC12:19 The timestamps Picard gives are the number of seconds into the simulation, I'm pretty sure. I've never gone back to see if they actually line up, though.
Jovet
2024-06-09 18:00:47 +0000 UTC8:52 What was happening on the holodeck was irrelevant, as long as the station program was running. The angle of the energy from the surface hitting the holodeck-recreated generator is what caused the seemingly-random energy. The idea IS scientifically plausible and consistent, even though it doesn't have to be. That doesn't mean there can't be some questions about it, but it's buyable to me.
Jovet
2024-06-09 17:56:36 +0000 UTC@James Goss Nah. He's just learned how to manage and be around emotional beings.
Jovet
2024-06-09 17:52:43 +0000 UTC6:40 It can help if you just sit back and take the episode in, and don't overthink it while you're watching it.
Jovet
2024-06-09 17:51:49 +0000 UTC2:10 Alex looking at Josh with a "you're getting kinda animated/crazy there, calm down" look. LOL!
Jovet
2024-06-09 17:46:45 +0000 UTC1:20 Yeah, that's unfortunate.
Jovet
2024-06-09 17:45:47 +0000 UTCThat would have been so good.
Collin Freeman
2024-06-09 17:43:54 +0000 UTCYeah, I feel like that gets missed because it’s so subtle. But showing people painting the same model from slightly different angles and with slightly different interpretations is perfect! :)
Benjamin Azure
2024-06-09 17:42:02 +0000 UTCI agree with you on how good this episode is. But on a side note, that holodeck background is fire. That is the best background yet. I love how the episode sticks to its theme throughout and the characters' perspectives make sense. Manua doesn't want to look bad, so she makes Riker the romantic initiator. Also, Tayna (the assistant) repeats what Apgar told her. So of course Apgar is going to tell her that he beat up Riker and Riker threatened him. That way, if any suspicion was thrown his way, he'd have a self-defense argument. There is a lot to pick apart in this script on repeat viewings. Also love how the first scene shows the different "perspectives" of each artist while painting the same subject. Subtle, but fits the theme.
Justin B
2024-06-09 17:41:50 +0000 UTCI'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed that XD
GreenCauldron08
2024-06-09 17:39:57 +0000 UTCAnd I LOVE The Royale
JGoss
2024-06-09 17:37:24 +0000 UTCWhen I think of what Ron Jones brought to these early seasons, it's that opening music when people are painting. Sadly if this was a later season episode, all you would hear is the ship's hum. But here, it's engaging and brings you in.
JGoss
2024-06-09 17:36:21 +0000 UTCFurther proof Data has emotions, on some level.
JGoss
2024-06-09 17:28:37 +0000 UTCThere's a deleted scene where Picard tosses paint on his painting at the end of the scene. I wish they had kept it
JGoss
2024-06-09 17:27:45 +0000 UTCYou read a take of mine for the first time. So of course I respond. Yes, I see this episode differently now. And quite the same way as Alex. Like him I have also taken a few acting classes and appreciate the scene variations with almost the same lines. I think this episode is not as high regarded by most of the fans because it is outshined by the next one. You'll understand when you see it.
Sam Langanke
2024-06-09 17:13:41 +0000 UTCJust like with the previous episode, I imagine that this one hits very differently the first time through it than the fifth time. But it works the opposite way here. The surprise, cheeky humor of "Deja Q" makes it infinitely rewatchable. But with "A Matter of Perspective", each time you see it, you're not just watching the story play out once, you're rewatching it three more times. And with only minor variations. It does get old. But I vaguely remember being really impressed on the first go-round, 30 years (omg) ago.
Dan Halstead
2024-06-09 17:13:35 +0000 UTCA good episode, well directed, well staged. I like how the opening neatly ties into the theme of the main plot. It kind of leaves a bad taste in my mouth, tho. I give it 7/10.
Roland_D
2024-06-09 17:10:19 +0000 UTCI still give this episode a C-, but respect your opinions and glad you both enjoyed it. I agree with you about Cliff Bole - he is the GOAT for TNG. I will say that if you think this is in your top 3 of the season, we are all going to find things interesting by the end of the season.
Collin Freeman
2024-06-09 16:49:40 +0000 UTCI think it's safe to say now, without spoiling, that where the first two seasons were mostly black and white in terms of strong and weak episodes, three onwards is more individual and personal based upon what one enjoys/ wants to see in episodes. A quick glance over the IMDB scores which I've never looked at until now, I agree with >75% of them but there are cases where my enjoyment does not tally with the score (E24 prime example, and I bet I'm in the minority XD ).
James Knight
2024-06-09 16:12:23 +0000 UTCYou guys still continue to surprise me. I'll chalk this one up to everyone having "bad" episodes they love and think are great. I still can't say I understand what you guys see in the episode after watching the discussion but I do appreciate the honesty and genuine reactions. It's what sets you guys apart from most other react channels in my opinion.
Spencer Loften
2024-06-09 16:02:19 +0000 UTCI should have known it was a trap as soon as I heard doctor Ackbar's name.
Dmitriy.0
2024-06-09 15:51:34 +0000 UTCYeah, I'm not sure you guys would enjoy Rashomon so much. Just a feeling. But then again, you do continue to surprise me with your reactions. As for this week's reactions, sure, why not. You do you. That's why I enjoy watching.
Eric Brinkmann
2024-06-09 15:41:10 +0000 UTCRashomon is one of the greatest films of all time. Certainly watch and react.
Turtleboy
2024-06-09 15:36:13 +0000 UTCSo somewhat ironically, I think my memory of this episode was leading me to think it was worse than it is. But more than that, one of the things I live about your reaction videos is they A) feel genuine, and B) that genuine reaction gives me a realtime insight to what you are really reacting to. And its often not the thing that would have been catching my attention on first watch. The upshot is that regardless of my own past opinions of episodes, I have been able to enjoy the episodes you have loved either more, or in different ways than I had before. I'm excited to see how things go from here!
Julie Carter
2024-06-09 15:30:57 +0000 UTCIf you have it, Rashomon is on Max right now. I haven't seen it but I might check it out myself. I assume there are English subtitles since it is a Japanese film. If you want an episode with a great hook. the next one might just do it for you.
KatWithAttitude
2024-06-09 15:29:04 +0000 UTCThe shot of Riker passing behind himself was enhanced greatly by the camera pan which followed his movement. This would be impossibly difficult without motion control, which they only used for model shots. The original scene and the green screened Riker were shot using a much wider format of film in a locked position (something like Cinemascope). Later, after they composited the shot, they were able to zoom in to their normal square ratio and do a "pan and scan' from one side of the image to another. This gives the illusion of a moving camera shot. Really clever, used several times in the series. Whenever you see movement in a composited image (a landscape matte painting with foreground actors, for example), they achieved the shot this way,
Gavin Scott
2024-06-09 15:08:26 +0000 UTCGoogle “tier list explanation”
Josh (Target Audience)
2024-06-09 15:03:29 +0000 UTCSpeaking of "Rashomon"-style shows, there was a tv series in 2002 called "Boomtown" which was set in Los Angeles and showed a criminal investigation each week from the different perspectives of cops, detectives, lawyers, reporters, victims, witnesses, and criminals. It was brilliant but only lasted 24 episodes, probably because it was a little too challenging for the average viewer. I just found the episodes streaming on Youtube.
Jeff
2024-06-09 14:56:43 +0000 UTCIs there an explanation somewhere of what these lettered tiers stand for?
Regan
2024-06-09 14:22:16 +0000 UTCThis is one of the bangers. Several more to come. There may be a couple that are meh, but have some great ones on the way.
JP RFL
2024-06-09 14:18:46 +0000 UTCPicard's reaction to Data's reaction is equally priceless.
TomEmilioDavies
2024-06-09 14:16:20 +0000 UTCData's reaction to Picard's painting is priceless.
Regan
2024-06-09 14:12:40 +0000 UTC#MeToo #BelieveAllHolograms
Steven Johnson
2024-06-09 14:05:33 +0000 UTCNext time on STARRRRR TREKTHENEXTGENERATION! I can't help but love them. They're bad, but they were also part of childhood.
Steven Johnson
2024-06-09 14:05:13 +0000 UTCSooooo glad we didn't get those crappy episode trailers down here in Australia. That guy's voice grates on my nerves!
Regan
2024-06-09 13:54:03 +0000 UTC
