FULL DISCUSSION - Star Trek TNG S3E9 - The Vengeance Factor
Added 2024-05-17 01:42:22 +0000 UTCFollow-up discussion on episode 8 at the end also
Comments
The reason Columbo works so well is that it goes all the way in making the murderer the central character, telling the story mostly from his/her point of view. If Alex and Josh were to sample it sometime, maybe it should be one of the episodes where Shatner or Nimoy is the guest star.
James H
2024-05-24 16:59:44 +0000 UTCHe didn't say he was a clan member. He said he claimed the man's possessions because there were no members of his clan present.
Artribution
2024-05-23 21:14:09 +0000 UTCOne "error"? After the old guy is klled, another guy comes and says "I am of his clan I claim his possesions" and the leader says granted. She was trying to kill the last of that clan so I thought he would be next. I suppose he was just lying, but it's a funny choice, as it sets up what looks like an obvious plot point he will be killed next which never comes to fruition, and the misdirect cold have added ambiguity, like, well if she was actually killing their clan why hasnt she gone after this guy, maybe Riker defneds her on that point, then we find out the guy was lying. As it is, its just weird, he claims to be a cla member and is never brought up again. Pretty sure she was i earshot, so he must have been lying. But why do that if it wasn't going to lead to anything?
paultardspambot .
2024-05-21 04:14:37 +0000 UTChuh. I liked it. Loved Picard's mediating style, how he's the ultimate mediator but when he says shut up they listen, though the planetary leader versus the hard nosed rebels who have to talk tough in front of each other but really want to come home was nicely done. I don't know, I found it enjoyable enough. Not one of the all time greats are anything, but I'm surprised how down they are on it.
paultardspambot .
2024-05-21 04:10:59 +0000 UTCThe repetition aspect is not the point of my statement. I was talking about having nostalgia goggles for things you watched at a younger age. The repetition part is just a fact I threw in about myself watching VHS as a kid, it wasn’t that relevant to my point.
Josh (Target Audience)
2024-05-19 20:01:25 +0000 UTCWhen the plot involves the Enterprise hosting negotiations, escorting negotiators, involvement with warring factions, etc., the writing is often by-the-numbers. It’s almost like in lieu of a compelling plot the writers revisit this familiar theme. Vengeance Factor is near the bottom of season 3.
Roland_D
2024-05-19 17:14:11 +0000 UTCIt's only a spoiler because you know what I'm talking about.
startrekiborg
2024-05-19 16:04:27 +0000 UTCBut will you still respect me in the morning...?
Jovet
2024-05-19 05:28:55 +0000 UTCYes, that is a spoiler. It might be a good idea to remove it.
Anthony Bernacchi
2024-05-19 01:40:30 +0000 UTCRight, same thing with Romeo and Juliet. First thing they do is tell you that they end up dead. Also, what about every vampire story? The audience goes in knowing that Dracula is a vampire, etc. The tension is in watching the characters slowly realize what we already know.
Aramis Calcutt
2024-05-19 00:33:32 +0000 UTCQuite possibly
tyranusfan
2024-05-18 20:25:06 +0000 UTCSeemed more like one of those scripts that need a few more polish steps but the writer had already handed in the final draft and nobody had time to rewrite it more.
Andreas Schmitt
2024-05-18 20:14:35 +0000 UTCTo my mind, this is the weakest episode for quite a while. I'd wager you'll thoroughly enjoy at least 6 out of the next 8, with at least 2 of them making your top 5 for the season.
Timothy Hennon
2024-05-18 16:02:42 +0000 UTCThank you
Sam Langanke
2024-05-18 10:20:39 +0000 UTCThe price is okay on a surface level, but the pacing sucks (for the same reason Loud as a Whisper's pacing sucks) and the guest actor was a little too sleazy when he should have come across as charming. I think it's an episode that would have worked much better if the guest actor had approached it a different way.
Ian Westcott
2024-05-18 04:55:08 +0000 UTC@Target Audience What you said is that, in essence, people can learn to love things by repeated exposure. I repeat things because I like them already.
Jovet
2024-05-18 02:53:39 +0000 UTC@Derek Orr Yeah. She definitely didn't have to die. That was, really, overly melodramatic. A poor attempt at shock.
Jovet
2024-05-18 02:51:26 +0000 UTCYa but all riker (or anyone) had to do was physically block or tackle her or tell the target to leave the room or something 🤷♂️
Derek Orr
2024-05-18 02:16:52 +0000 UTCI wonder if the scene with Yuta killing the old man was inserted...one of those producer things "but, but, the audience might not get it if we don't spell it out!" moments.
tyranusfan
2024-05-18 00:25:56 +0000 UTCSpock proceeds to rant about how useless a gesture saying "thank you" is
Timothy Nikiforovs
2024-05-17 19:35:38 +0000 UTCI absolutely agree with you guys on this one. D tier for sure. Top 5 worst of the season for me. That said, there are worse episodes, and even though The Price is probably an objectively better episode, I still enjoy watching this one more than The Price just because The Price feels weird and uncomfortable for many reasons. This one is just standard filler. It's not terrible, but it's definitely below average TNG, and ultimately it's just forgettable. This is the first of three forgettable season three episodes in my opinion, but I think you guys will find this one the least enjoyable of those three.
BN13
2024-05-17 18:40:25 +0000 UTCI think season 5 is the best one. All are good seasons from 3 on.
Miah1138
2024-05-17 18:12:03 +0000 UTCWell, now we're getting into some sci-fi conundrum. I either never knew that about Vulcan blood or forgot, but on Earth, copper-derived compounds like that produce blue blood. Not green. The Acamarian blood was clearly red. I just looked at the episode transcript, and apparently the Acamarian blood is supposed to be an iron-copper composite, which is what makes it unique. I hadn't picked up on that line of dialog clearly before, it seems.
Jovet
2024-05-17 17:57:16 +0000 UTCDid you go on dates with people when you were a child Jovet? The point was about loving things when you’re younger, not about repetition.
Josh (Target Audience)
2024-05-17 17:12:07 +0000 UTCI would never call Season 3 “the Golden Age”. Season 3 is when the show turned a corner and started out on the proper path. I will say, you guys found a lot more positive to say about this episode than I ever could. This may not be the worst of the season but it absolutely is the weakest.
StealthMomo
2024-05-17 17:02:07 +0000 UTCErnie Anderson was the GOAT. One of my favorites as a kid was the ABC broadcast of the extended Superman II. Ernie narrated the opening promo.
JGoss
2024-05-17 16:39:45 +0000 UTC15.....16.....17.....
JGoss
2024-05-17 16:38:18 +0000 UTCThey're not the only species to have copper-based blood. Vulcans (and presumably Romulans) have that. Vulcans are given subtle makeup to give their skin a green tinge. Presumably the Acamarians should have had green blood and similar skin accents.
JGoss
2024-05-17 16:36:26 +0000 UTCShe essentially died the moment she was changed. She exists only to fulfill her mission. While there is still some of the old her there, it's suppressed. It's like how Kyle Reese described the Terminator: "It can't be reasoned with, it can't be bargained with...it doesn't feel pity of remorse or fear...and it absolutely will not stop. Ever. Until you are dead."
JGoss
2024-05-17 16:32:27 +0000 UTCYeah that statement made me roll my eyes. I, personally, don't go out with ugly people over and over until I find them beautiful. Maybe they do?
Jovet
2024-05-17 15:08:35 +0000 UTCThe goalposts keep on moving
Jovet
2024-05-17 15:05:33 +0000 UTCGrumpy Spock! “You might at least say thank you” - Scotty
Josh (Target Audience)
2024-05-17 14:20:28 +0000 UTCMy condolences for your friend
Josh (Target Audience)
2024-05-17 14:18:08 +0000 UTCSeason 3 gets really good from episode 10 onwards, after that there are very few weak episodes, but many really good ones. But Seasons 4, 5 an 6 are better overall than season 3.
Liquid82
2024-05-17 14:15:28 +0000 UTCThe strangest thing for me personally is that the Gatherers looked like my teenage friends and me in 1989. Do I have to mention we had an Iron Maiden fanclub? :-) One of them - who almost looked exactly like Chorgan - was my Star Trek buddy with whom I always watched the episodes because he had (already) a VCR. I also borrowed his Star Trek novels which he collected. Sadly he died last year much too young.
Sam Langanke
2024-05-17 14:07:06 +0000 UTCI also think "That Which Survives" is very much underrated, although it's flawed by bizarrely poor characterization of Spock in the Enterprise scenes. On the other hand, my favorite part of the episode is Scotty's incredible courage: he tells Spock that going into the Jeffries tube is basically a suicide mission, then almost immediately thereafter volunteers to do it himself once he realizes it's the ship's only chance. That sequence is so suspenseful that I really thought Scotty might die when I first saw it as a kid.
Anthony Bernacchi
2024-05-17 13:34:28 +0000 UTCWe try to find the good we promise
Josh (Target Audience)
2024-05-17 12:28:04 +0000 UTCGiven how luke warm you were on it, you had a LOT of positive things to day about it here :D
Andreas Schmitt
2024-05-17 12:27:42 +0000 UTCThe earliest version of photoshop was 1987. But didn't become somewhat common till the 90s.
Greg Quinn
2024-05-17 08:29:13 +0000 UTCJust to confirm, I watched it many times when I was younger (mid- to late-teens) because it was a favourite. It didn't become a fave because I watched it a lot. I like your take on it, and you raise some very valid plot points, but they don't detract from my enjoyment of it (way too late for it to NOT be a favourite now). :)
Andy Frankham-Allen
2024-05-17 08:28:08 +0000 UTCI'm glad you do these longer discussions because I like having a deeper understanding of why you disliked the episode other than just rolling your eyes during the episode without much discussion for context. I did enjoy this episode overall, but I will admit to all of the problems you mentioned. Thanks again!
wildhunt1973
2024-05-17 05:49:22 +0000 UTCI think you're way too harsh on this episode. You yourselves brought up a lot of great scenes and dialogue and you didn't even address Worf skill with a phaser in a live battle. At any rate this one is in the books and you never have to watch it again!
Trouty McTroutTrout
2024-05-17 05:37:54 +0000 UTCReally liked this one. Yuta's final attack might have been filmed even more tragically. On the personal side, had she survived, I have always had the idea Yuta and Riker might have developed a real and lasting relationship .https://youtu.be/Qhz48AHQjHs?si=XsaJMYok9zoN6K-G
Mark Chrisco
2024-05-17 05:32:50 +0000 UTC14:10 I've always presumed that Yuta CAN'T abandon her mission. Part of the changes done to her to imbibe her with that killer virus, slow her aging down, make her resilient to phasers (on stun), surely included mental programming to compel her to complete her journey to eliminate the enemy Lornak.
Jovet
2024-05-17 05:23:22 +0000 UTC7:20 I disagree. The early reveal doesn't bother me one bit. I just don't like the hokey ending.
Jovet
2024-05-17 05:13:34 +0000 UTC6:45 They definitely were not human. Their blood uses copper (somehow) for oxygen transport versus iron which 99.9% of the species on Earth that have blood use.
Jovet
2024-05-17 05:12:24 +0000 UTCThis one is a clunker, no way around it. I enjoyed the actors who played the sovereign and the clan leader, but that’s it. Trek struggles when we are ahead of the characters.
Column Meanie
2024-05-17 05:11:38 +0000 UTCI've been slowly going through Columbo, and while I like a number of the episodes I've seen (the first two would be great examples for the guys) I do think in addition to the format being not to their tastes, the 90-minute TV movie runtimes would aldo be an issue.
Nolan
2024-05-17 05:09:28 +0000 UTC3:12 There were NOT dead bodies down there. The two people they found had been stunned multiple times. Dr. Crusher later stated that they will recover. How the blood came to be there is never explained. It's just a plot device to segue into introducing the Acamarians. I have always assumed one of the Gatherers was casually injured trying to ransack the place. Pretty easy to get gored by a sharp scrap metal if you're not paying attention to what you're doing.
Jovet
2024-05-17 04:57:36 +0000 UTCFRASIER reactions next! 🤟🏼🔥
Benjamin Azure
2024-05-17 04:30:07 +0000 UTCSeason 4 is the gold standard for me. It doesn’t necessarily have the highs of 3 or even 5, but it also doesn’t have the lows of 3 and especially 5. Parts of 6 and 7 are still excellent (mostly 6) but there are way too many clunkers mixed in the bunch. JMO..Of course like Bob Justman said “I love them all, even Spock’s Brain.” 😃
Glenn Johnson Barnes
2024-05-17 04:17:18 +0000 UTCThank you for a very intelligent TNG conversation. Good job. 🖖
T’Pynyn of Vulcan
2024-05-17 04:10:37 +0000 UTCI don't know anyone who called TNG season 3 "The Golden Age". Season 3 is when it STARTED in the right direction.
startrekiborg
2024-05-17 03:25:54 +0000 UTCIn most Greek stories, they tell you the entire tale from the outset when asking the muse for help.
wildhunt1973
2024-05-17 03:25:49 +0000 UTCThere’s a long tradition of mystery stories in which the mystery is known by the viewer or reader. And the fun is in watching the heroes figure it out. For example, every single episode of “Columbo” starts with a scene showing exactly who the murderer is (it’s always the celebrity guest star) and showing exactly how the murder was committed. The fun isn’t in the viewer not knowing the answer but rather in watching how Columbo figures it out. I personally love this kind of story. Now, it isn’t always done well. And this episode might be an example of one that wasn’t done well, but it seems like you guys just aren’t into the very concept of it. I gotta say, it seems like an unnecessary limitation that rules out an entire category of stories. I’d suggest trying out some Columbo episodes and seeing whether it might not be something you can learn to like. Or maybe not. Not everything is for everybody, but it seems unfortunate to just rule out an entire subgenre of mystery stories. Maybe try getting into the mindset of not demanding that all story turns are surprises. After all, some of the best stories—Shakespeare, the Iliad, the Odyssey, Dickens, Jane Austen. Pretty much anyone who picks up these stories are going to know exactly what the sequence of events are, but that shouldn’t be an absolute bar to appreciation. Another example is Alfred Hitchcock. One of his main techniques of suspense was based on the audience knowing what was going to happen but in the rising tension of watching the characters being oblivious as the deadly moment gets closer and closer. Also take a look at the sad career of M. Night Shyamalan, who had one huge hit with an unexpected twist ending and has spent the rest of his career writing subpar scripts because he thinks everything has to have a surprise ending. But overall, I agree, this wasn’t one of the show’s best episodes.
Aramis Calcutt
2024-05-17 03:08:14 +0000 UTC"And then you have sex" Yeah. Yeah... I remember what water tasted like. Years in the desert. Hold me.
Steven Johnson
2024-05-17 02:38:33 +0000 UTCI can't wait till u see episode 15 lol
Jason Mitchell
2024-05-17 02:35:36 +0000 UTCThe Blu-ray version has a minor error that was fixed on streaming. When the Enterprise is orbiting Acamar, the planet suddenly stops spinning 🤣
JGoss
2024-05-17 02:30:12 +0000 UTCCut out the scene of Yuta killing and exposition dump, merge the two Gatherer dudes into one character - that would make it a good episode
JGoss
2024-05-17 02:21:40 +0000 UTCI think your takes are aligned with the audience. This was a weaker episode and not representative of "season 3". It's a speed bump for sure, and it's all a smooth ride from here.
JGoss
2024-05-17 02:18:58 +0000 UTCThe guy is great and can announce anything. There is a long news clip of him on YT watching him work and interviewing him.
Ken R
2024-05-17 02:17:01 +0000 UTCYes, I liked the War of the World series, too. It ended too soon.
Collin Freeman
2024-05-17 02:15:41 +0000 UTCMy headcanon is this was his last recording for that day and he was tired
Josh (Target Audience)
2024-05-17 02:14:30 +0000 UTCI like the way he changed up how he said " the NEXT generation "
Ken R
2024-05-17 02:13:47 +0000 UTCLove hearing Friday the 13th: The Series get a shout. That and the War of the Worlds series really pushed how grim you could make a Saturday afternoon during the early TNG era. It wouldn’t be uncommon to see those two back to back at 4 and 5, followed by the much sunnier (at times) Enterprise crew at 6. But man, there were no happy endings on those shows, hope you check out Friday sometime for fun. It’s a vibe!
Dan Proctor
2024-05-17 02:08:17 +0000 UTCIf our anthology series in the fall garners enough interest it would definitely make the season 2 list
Josh (Target Audience)
2024-05-17 02:07:04 +0000 UTCI liked Friday the 13th the series back in its day. Haven't seen it since. Might be worth a look.
Collin Freeman
2024-05-17 01:56:09 +0000 UTCI'm with you Josh. This one is a pass. Probably the bottom of the season 3 episodes for me.
Collin Freeman
2024-05-17 01:45:09 +0000 UTC
