Target Audience / PATRON TAKES - Star Trek TNG

I think for me, what bugs me the most is why they would give up sex in the first place. As we all know there’s more to sex then just reproduction I mean contraception does exist. There’s also the possibility of engineering the clones to be either sterile or barren. There’s also the possibility of requiring all the men to get vasectomies, or the women to get your tubes tied after all, they did mention the clones use punitive laws. Obviously, there are some moral and ethical considerations I’m just looking at it from a more pragmatic, practical approach combined with my natural reaction of why on earth, would you give that up?

Leighton Cressman

2024-03-17 13:34:39 +0000 UTC

Nothing says how much of a mixed bag Season 2 is like this episode. Feels like it's a TOS episode, predict you guys will love O'Brien and Riker in this.

thereisnoothershoe

2024-03-15 14:01:47 +0000 UTC

I love the "Oh, no!" from O'Brien as he beams up a transporter pad full of Irish stereotypes. As if his character had read the script in advance and knew what we were all in for.

Timothy Hennon

2024-03-15 02:24:46 +0000 UTC

I don't think the clones being opposed to sexual reproduction at first is stupid at all. They've spent so many generations considering sexual reproduction as super taboo. That ends up very ingrained into people's psyche, especially over so many generations. Of COURSE they'd initially be like "eww, I really don't want to." To THEM it'd be like aliens coming to Earth and being like "okay, you guys have to do this super taboo thing your entire civilization has thought is gross and a huge no-no for centuries or you're all going to die 🤷🏻‍♀️" People would be incredibly hesitant. Even if it would save their lives.

Lady Beyond The Wall

2024-03-14 14:40:26 +0000 UTC

No lie, I saw someone on another Patreon comment section for this episode complaining about how she even told Picard that he was fasting and how it made her a bad doctor, lol. Like she should have told Picard NOTHING. But this particular person was keeping a literal running tally, for every single episode, of every single thing Pulaski did and said that was horrible or offensive in their opinion. It was bordering on hating her TOO much that it was.. weird. Even when she was barely in an episode they'd have 5 or 6 things numbered out for why they hated her. :|

Lady Beyond The Wall

2024-03-14 14:10:13 +0000 UTC

I'm VERY glad someone mentioned this. Then he covers with an improvised line like the professional he is.

JD Nevesytrof

2024-03-13 22:49:04 +0000 UTC

Man, I hate this episode first you got the Irish stereotypes as SF debris, put it, but then the worst part is Riker and Pulaski straight up commit murder yes I know that the clones assaulting them and taking their DNA was definitely wrong and they shouldn’t have done that but to then go and commit murder on those clones who are innocent is just so morally wrong. Also, the clones being opposed to sexual reproduction, at least at first is also stupid since that would probably help at least so much with the genetic issues plus it’s a lot more fun. Oh and of course we end this episode on everyone has to be polygamous. Man what a stupid episode I would also suggest watching SF debris review of this episode. He has some good insights to.

Leighton Cressman

2024-03-13 15:43:36 +0000 UTC

Especially later in the universe it is implied doing so is murder. I won't say more than that to avoid spoilers.

Eric Wilson

2024-03-12 20:45:28 +0000 UTC

But they don’t give it the usual Star Trek moral issue treatment. It could have been good, and had the same results, but it did not. Add that to the racist Irish stuff and it’s a mess of an episode

Crankygrandma

2024-03-12 20:03:28 +0000 UTC

kind of cringe, and I'm not even Irish

Tim b

2024-03-12 19:28:09 +0000 UTC

LOL. Oh Star Trek. We can't stay mad at you

James Bottas

2024-03-12 17:33:14 +0000 UTC

the way we start on this episode is great. very silly and light hearted for a society that has lost its home.. and that Riker charm .. but then clones, kidnapping, mind wipe, and finally polygamy the whole 9 yards.

Lt Dan I scream

2024-03-12 17:11:58 +0000 UTC

This is the weird episode of TNG where it’s not a great episode, but for some reason I never skip it on rewatches on season 2. It’s also feels like 2 half episodes as the first half is lighthearted and the second half is stark and deals with the metaphysics of cloning.

Eric Bundy

2024-03-12 16:49:16 +0000 UTC

If their minds are indeed not functional, then of course it's not murder. But I'm not sure how you grow an adult human body without growing the brain at the same rate - they might not have any acquired knowledge; their minds might be "blank slates" so to speak, but they'd still be human beings, with feelings and thoughts. But in any case, the bigger problem is that Riker doesn't even stop to ask this question.

Steven Linden

2024-03-12 15:44:28 +0000 UTC

So, about those bad season two episodes... Wow, this episode has not aged well at all! As I recall it wasn't that well regarded back when it first aired either.

Nick Sauer

2024-03-12 14:52:58 +0000 UTC

I, along with many others, have always wondered about that.

Rhett Coates

2024-03-12 13:46:43 +0000 UTC

This year they should be able to get through seasons 2, 3, and 4 of TNG.

Jovet

2024-03-12 13:26:42 +0000 UTC

I think it was a nice touch that the women got 3 husbands, instead of the more commonly seen man with 3 wives situation.

Andrea R

2024-03-12 11:31:11 +0000 UTC

What we learned about Klingons in this episode- They do NOT faint, they do NOT give into illness, Klingon measles are no joke, they have a surprisingly beautiful tea ceremony, they prefer to die with others, they write love poetry, Klingon women have traits similar to Brenna Odell, Chech'tluth is not for lightweights.

Andrea R

2024-03-12 11:30:27 +0000 UTC

Loved her as well

Andrea R

2024-03-12 11:24:39 +0000 UTC

Very true

Andrea R

2024-03-12 11:23:21 +0000 UTC

100%

Andrea R

2024-03-12 11:19:55 +0000 UTC

It WAS a huge deal at the time. And this felt very sci-fi fantasy when I first watched it. Lots of what if questions in this episode.

Andrea R

2024-03-12 11:18:46 +0000 UTC

I'm always going easy on Star Trek too. Lol

Andrea R

2024-03-12 11:17:25 +0000 UTC

They aren't saying all Irish are like that, in my opinion. I honestly think its not even about the Irish at all. IMO, it's more of a social thought experiment. What would happen if you took a group of people and split them into two isolated groups. One group, people from an extremely "anachronistic" rich and full of life society with Irish roots that work hard but enjoy simple pleasures from life. The other, technology focused with a distain for carnal pleasures. Then you isolate both societies for 300 years. What might that look like? How could each society learn from each other? Picard encourages them to embrace each other's strengths and to leave "bigotry" at the door. I honestly never got a racist vibe from this episode. Maybe a bit of stereotyping but not worth getting upset about in my opinion. Especially if you give their intentions the benefit of the doubt.

Andrea R

2024-03-12 11:15:27 +0000 UTC

"Madam, have you ever considered working in security?" One of my favorite lines from Worf up to that point.

Monty Crawford

2024-03-12 11:15:24 +0000 UTC

Jovet, my point is this episode is lazy writing. Instead of doing something clever with the tropes, the tropes are just dredged up (stock elements). This was a prime time show in a very well known franchise. There's a responsibility to the paying audience to aim higher.

Numinous2019

2024-03-12 10:31:38 +0000 UTC

I love this info. I feel like even when Star Trek misses the mark or something doesn't Age well for some, the original intention is always well meaning.

Andrea R

2024-03-12 09:56:34 +0000 UTC

This is one of those episodes in which I laugh and bow to the absurdity as Picard did. :)

Andrea R

2024-03-12 09:47:18 +0000 UTC

Good trek would have explored the moral ramifications of all this, or at least considered grey areas, even if the end was the same. But nope. Just a quick zap. A great issue for trek to examine, but not handled well here (nor was anything else in this episode)

Crankygrandma

2024-03-12 09:16:41 +0000 UTC

Well, I’ve done more than my fair share of drinking Irish whiskey, and standing in the fire so that’s not an invalid question, Mr. wharf!

Thicketdweller

2024-03-12 08:07:21 +0000 UTC

And I say: So? What difference does it make? It's easy for many to make the leap of "oh, this must represent all Irish people, everywhere" but it does not. It's a mistake to be that intellectually lazy. You want to blame this kind of storytelling for that kind of vapidness, but you ought to blame the daft who employ that kind of thinking in the first place. In other words, stereotypes exist for a reason, but you had better be sure you actually understand the stereotype being perpetuated. Frankly, life is too short to worry about people who are "taken in" in the way you describe. A parallel example: I live in the middle of the USA, and there are people about (on the "sophisticated" coasts) who believe or find plausible that we still use covered wagons here. Covered wagons (for those that know what they are) largely disappeared by the year 1900. Is it really necessary for me to get upset about what some illdiots on the coasts think they know? Of course not. Perhaps.... perhaps I just abhor mediocre victimhood.

Jovet

2024-03-12 06:52:41 +0000 UTC

I want to laff at this. I really do!

Jovet

2024-03-12 06:34:16 +0000 UTC

I know the writer meant to a convey a pro-choice type message, but it’s sort of a TNG cop out. This isn’t how cloning works (full grown Riker and Pulaski)! It made for a more dramatic scene, but a more accurate scene would be Riker blasting a couple of embryos..but there’s no way in hell that would have made it on late 80s television. Or today for that matter.

Glenn Johnson Barnes

2024-03-12 06:23:53 +0000 UTC

Oh boy. This one is pretty bad, what with the "drunken Irish layabouts" stereotyping and all. What's worse is the forced resolution that OUR CREW endorses. "Eh, y'all should just bang." A low point in the season IMO.

Paul O'Neal

2024-03-12 05:25:32 +0000 UTC

It is possible that emigrants play up certain traits in order to re-enforce their 'identity' both with their own fellow emigrants and with the citizens of their 'adopted' country. There are, of course, many who do fall into recognisable national types too. But think of negative UK stereotypes. I'll spare you the examples. The use of the term 'Ex-pats' is telling though. The problem we face is that modern communications technology hasn't broadened our knowledge and understanding. Instead it has largely provided info silos and echo chambers to provide comfort from the complexities and uncertainties of our world ( and allowed easier manipulation of emotions). We are regressing into very old patterns.

Numinous2019

2024-03-12 04:10:10 +0000 UTC

That guess about the title relating to DNA does you credit. That's smart thinking.

Numinous2019

2024-03-12 03:39:43 +0000 UTC

Jovet, the problem is when an entire colony is represented by stock character types. If I were to say that (and forgive me in advance) all French males are arrogant chauvanists, or all Scottish people are gloomy & tight-fisted, etc. It is the falling back on the Maureen O'Hara and Barry Fitzgerald screen types here that is the issue. No subtlety or variation employed. In the 1990's, my next door neighbours' son went on a student exchange programme to France. The father of the French family he stayed with refused to believe there were any computers in Ireland. Now that is the result of this kind of propagation of stereotypes. IBM, Apple, Intel, Dell, Gateway, Digital, Compaq, etc. all had their European headquarters in Ireland at that time.

Numinous2019

2024-03-12 03:33:45 +0000 UTC

She's one of my most-favorite TNG characters! She's amazing!!

Jovet

2024-03-12 02:59:32 +0000 UTC

No, it was not. I suspect you're confusing triplet brothers Floyd Weaver, Troy Weaver, and Lloyd Weaver for Murphy.

Jovet

2024-03-12 02:58:56 +0000 UTC

Although this episode is somewhat maligned today, it has been one of my very favorite episodes since I saw it back when it first aired. It also has one of the most cold/badass lines Pulaski has ever spoken.

Darin Wagner

2024-03-12 01:41:17 +0000 UTC

Not as bad as the space hippies I guess

Evan Guthrie

2024-03-12 01:28:19 +0000 UTC

I've always enjoyed this one, despite the crazy Irish stuff. The idea of cloning against your will is an interesting question, and Pulaski really works with this story.

tyranusfan

2024-03-12 01:00:06 +0000 UTC

Oh it’s the Irish immigrants episode. Oh boy buckle up boys. This one is still a bit of heat from most Irish people (I mean real Irish not Irish Americans)

Jason Biggs

2024-03-12 00:46:42 +0000 UTC

I'm starting to think that Riker could rizz a potted plant if he really wanted to.

Archangel42

2024-03-12 00:33:44 +0000 UTC

I don't know that they'll manage it this year, but they're certainly closer than they've ever been 🍀

Avaria

2024-03-12 00:15:18 +0000 UTC

Never noticed that before! How interesting. No wonder Troi could have all of those episodes off work.

Smear Campaign

2024-03-12 00:08:54 +0000 UTC

There's another Irish reference in Season 3 that I think will land, very appropriately, this year.

Ian Westcott

2024-03-12 00:03:17 +0000 UTC

They were so cheery, have to admit..

Ian Westcott

2024-03-12 00:02:18 +0000 UTC

Let's see if Pulaski covering for Worf and Klingon tea ceremony scene finally warms them up to her character.

JGoss

2024-03-12 00:01:52 +0000 UTC

I like to think this was formative for Tarantino. :-D

Ian Westcott

2024-03-12 00:01:51 +0000 UTC

He looked better like that than I would have given Colm credit for. Thank goodness he didn't shave his legs -- he looks better with the "wild, natural" look.

Ian Westcott

2024-03-12 00:00:28 +0000 UTC

This episode is far more blatantly racist, because the Irish stereotypes are there at the script level. Nothing in Code of Honour's script says the characters are black. It was the episode's director who took it there.

Regan

2024-03-12 00:00:26 +0000 UTC

The story goes that the director of Code of Honor made the choice to cast all Ligonians in that episode as African. The script itself only specified Lutan's guards as appearing African. I don't know if this was scapegoating on the director. Did the director choose all the costumes and drums too? Whatever happened, he was ultimately fired during the episode's production, and it was completed by someone else uncredited.

JGoss

2024-03-11 23:55:01 +0000 UTC

Pulaski gets my highest marks this time: she not only [dutifully] keeps patient secrets (while - comically - crossing her fingers when reporting to Picard about Worf's condition) but also shows remarkable courage and a genuine fascination for alien cultures - witness her partaking in the Klingon Tea Ritual. (That's one of my favorite TNG moments.) This story shows Dr. Pulaski's strengths on full display, particularly her profound respect for doctor-patient confidentiality, as well as respectful love for people encountered by the Enterprise-D. That lady is full of pleasant surprises!

Rhett Coates

2024-03-11 23:48:14 +0000 UTC

"Up the Long Ladder" quickly turns into a delightful and complicated story with many levels: Comedy, Intrigue, Conspiracy and more, all rolled into a 40-minute romp. The somewhat spooky part has a unique resolution, leaving viewers shaking their heads in agreement with Picard's statement to Pulaski: "I must be of my mind!"

Rhett Coates

2024-03-11 23:48:09 +0000 UTC

That's not a spoiler. If you'd mentioned Pulaski's depraved one night stand with O'Brien, THAT would have been a spoiler. Not sure I'll ever get the image of Miles in fishnet stockings and a black lace teddy out of my head.

Regan

2024-03-11 23:46:57 +0000 UTC

About Brenna Odell. .... What a powerhouse of a woman! That lady is wickedly strong-willed and stern when it comes to dealing with any issue, and quick on her feet in decision-making. Imagine her as Worf's assistant Security Chief on board - she would be absolutely formidable!

Rhett Coates

2024-03-11 23:46:28 +0000 UTC

Was that EDDIE MURPHY as one of the clone sets on that planet? I've read rumored reports that it was, and also that it wasn't. (He is a Star Trek fan and was almost cast as the whale biologist in ST: IV The Voyage Home, but as we know, that didn't happen.)

Rhett Coates

2024-03-11 23:45:23 +0000 UTC

I'm sure this will come up again when the time is right.

JGoss

2024-03-11 23:44:01 +0000 UTC

After the Bringloidi guests left the Enterprise, how many eggs do you think were found that the little girl's chicken laid in the corridors...?

Rhett Coates

2024-03-11 23:43:18 +0000 UTC

Geordi just casually mentions that he has 'polygraph vision' in this episode. No biggie.

JGoss

2024-03-11 23:34:17 +0000 UTC

The REAL worth of this episode is not the episode itself, but the conversations that it sparks afterwards about the hypotheticals presented - cloning, killing of clones, propagation of a species without sex, medically-prescribed polygamy, and even the purposeful sharing of a near-death experience as a form of intimacy. You gotta admit, NO ONE does a better job at spurning conversations about hypotheticals as well as Star Trek! This is why I love it so much!

Gweneviere

2024-03-11 23:22:20 +0000 UTC

I always assumed the "ladder" being referenced was DNA, because nothing else made sense. But you are so right! From Wikipedia: The title "Up the Long Ladder" is taken from an Irish anti-Protestant rhyme: "Up the long ladder, Down the short rope. To hell with King Billy! Three cheers for the Pope!" So, it's a reference to wishing their then-leader dead. And that pertains to this episode HOW, exactly?

Gweneviere

2024-03-11 23:12:25 +0000 UTC

But as far as we know, their minds are not yet functional, and they are just pure tissue at this point. At least, that's how the show appears to portray them. Compared to fetuses, who have functioning minds and experiences before birth, the extermination of these "adult" bodies actually seems more humane and socially acceptable to me.

Gweneviere

2024-03-11 23:05:17 +0000 UTC

Call-um Meany has stated in an interview that most Irish characters in film and TV aren't actually performed by Irish actors, and that he's proudly one of the few. He explains that this is why his Irish accent doesn't sound "sing-songy" like what most people think and Irish accent is. He blames Hollywood for perpetrating the fake, over-the-top "Irish" accent and cites this episode as an example (the actors who play the "Irish" colonists and have speaking parts are actually British).

Gweneviere

2024-03-11 22:50:00 +0000 UTC

Call-um Meany has stated in an interview that most Irish characters in film and TV aren't actually performed by Irish actors, and that he's proudly one of the few. He explains that this is why his Irish accent doesn't sound "sing-songy" like what most people think and Irish accent is. He blames Hollywood for perpetrating the fake, over-the-top "Irish" accent and cites this episode as an example (the actors who play the "Irish" colonists and have speaking parts are actually British).

Gweneviere

2024-03-11 22:49:33 +0000 UTC

The European Hegemony mentioned early in the episode was the writer's prediction of what basically became the European Union that exists today.

Gweneviere

2024-03-11 22:49:18 +0000 UTC

So absurd. The lines "Send in the clones" and "some clone lied to me", I also find eye-rollingly hilarious.

Ryan Caulfield

2024-03-11 22:18:45 +0000 UTC

That's what I keep telling people.

Jovet

2024-03-11 22:12:54 +0000 UTC

💯

Ryan Caulfield

2024-03-11 21:59:22 +0000 UTC

So, Riker figures out an alien SOS, negotiates a planet-wide evacuation, has a romance with a woman he just met, gets abducted and assaulted against his will, and casually murders a clone of himself and Dr. Pulaski. You know, just a normal, regular day. At least we dodged the bullet of two Pulaskis. (JK, the tea scene is the best scene in the episode.)

Ryan Caulfield

2024-03-11 21:54:44 +0000 UTC

Exactly the sort of question ST is meant to explore. I’d like to say something else about equivalence much later in ST but spoilers!

Smear Campaign

2024-03-11 21:53:13 +0000 UTC

A significant moral question that gets completely glossed over

JGoss

2024-03-11 21:41:57 +0000 UTC

The clones are humans. What right do they have to murder them anymore than the right to murder your identical twin?

Smear Campaign

2024-03-11 21:12:22 +0000 UTC

I think the Irish are used to it. Now, if you excuse me, I’m gonna go have a bowl of Lucky Charms.

Just another Red Shirt

2024-03-11 21:11:16 +0000 UTC

Picard 'breaking' and laughing at the absurdity was an unexpected highlight. He's slowly coming out of his shell.

JGoss

2024-03-11 21:11:14 +0000 UTC

The goofy Irish crap is just as “racist” as code of honor. It is funny that the cast don’t unanimously condemn this episode. That being said, I love the scenes with Pulaski and Worf.

Just another Red Shirt

2024-03-11 21:10:31 +0000 UTC

Clones? ..... Clones? ..... CLONES.

JGoss

2024-03-11 21:09:51 +0000 UTC

Solid scene, which builds on both characters.

JGoss

2024-03-11 21:08:40 +0000 UTC

This episode is a tonal roller coaster. You wouldn't expect goofy Irish stereotype gags followed by being abducted for your DNA and then killing unborn clones of yourselves to be in one episode, but there you are!

JGoss

2024-03-11 21:06:53 +0000 UTC

I can only imagine Irish people watching this cringe as badly at these accents as I do with Scotty's accent in TOS. At least Scotty was a great character!

Elizabeth N

2024-03-11 21:05:40 +0000 UTC

This one makes me roll my eyes like I'm a 14-year-old

harrypothead42024

2024-03-11 21:02:44 +0000 UTC

Honestly, I've lived in the UK my whole life, and although the Irish elements are a wee bit stereotypical, it's not so far removed from the truth. Stereotypes are only so because they have truth in them, and I've met many an Irish man who fits the cliché seen here. Besides, the feet washing is also rather funny. The deeper story of this episode though, the whole clone thing and the crews objections are pretty good and well handled. I think the reason they give are all very sound and make for a great discussion.

Andy Frankham-Allen

2024-03-11 21:02:35 +0000 UTC

For me it's...not one of their best. Your buddy Colm Meaney hates it because of the Irish stereotypes. The clone jokes get old pretty quickly. On the other hand, Worf and Pulaski have some nice bonding moments. My ranking for this one is “At Least It's Only 45ish Minutes”.

KatWithAttitude

2024-03-11 20:57:41 +0000 UTC

How? How did you manage to have the single most offensively stereotypical Irish episode of TNG land so that its access dates will bracket St Patrick's Day? Well done, lads, I suppose.

Avaria

2024-03-11 20:53:23 +0000 UTC

I love this one. I don't care what anyone else says. It is fun and hits a topic that was a huge deal at the time, cloning

Prof Moff

2024-03-11 20:52:06 +0000 UTC

“Lucky Charms! They’re magically delicious!.” I loathed this episode. It had potential to address some moral issues in that Star Trek way, but nope. Occasional heavy handed lines taking the place of thoughtfulness or cleverness. Caricatures instead of characters. It felt lazy all the way through. This coulda been good but felt slapped together. Swing and a very big miss. Ugh.

Crankygrandma

2024-03-11 20:50:55 +0000 UTC

This is probably me being too easy on TNG again but I like this episode. Depictions of Irish people going cross eyed drinking booze aside, it has some fun siliness, great scenes with Worf and Pulaski, and even a bit of body horror in the kidnapping/cloning scenes

James Bottas

2024-03-11 20:42:11 +0000 UTC

One of those "so bad it's good" episodes for me.

Greg Quinn

2024-03-11 20:34:44 +0000 UTC

Ah, TNG's other racist episode! I'm pretty sure Pulaski's math about 3 wives and 3 husband's actually makes the second or third generation basically all first cousins and super defeats the purpose. But, as someone with significant Irish ancestry myself, I gotta admit our stereotypes are fun at least.

Alexander McKechnie

2024-03-11 20:33:52 +0000 UTC

There is a Tarantino joke in there somewhere.

Greg Quinn

2024-03-11 20:33:23 +0000 UTC

After the last episode I was wrong…. It got worse colm meaney probably thought they were taking the piss with this script… and that feet scene

Warpiggaming

2024-03-11 20:30:35 +0000 UTC

Yikes. Along with the last episode, I'm tempted to skip this one too but I will watch because through you guys I always see something of value.

David Wayne Fox

2024-03-11 19:59:41 +0000 UTC

I would like to see her and Worf have a relationship (no spoilers)

tyranusfan

2024-03-11 19:45:03 +0000 UTC

I can't see any reason it wouldn't be. Melinda Snodgrass, the writer, seemed to think it was a pro-choice statement, but this isn't a fetus we're talking about; it's an adult human.

Steven Linden

2024-03-11 19:44:45 +0000 UTC

It's not a pizza till you pull it out of the oven! No, it's a pizza the minute you knead the dough!

Nolan

2024-03-11 19:43:47 +0000 UTC

Is it murder?

Jovet

2024-03-11 19:39:47 +0000 UTC

People get up in arms about this episode, and I'm forced to ask them: "What, people like this didn't exist? This is an exaggeration??" And the real answer is "Yes they do exist," and "No it is not an exaggeration." We'd all be lucky to have a Brenna Odell in our lives. And that is NOT what "racist" means.

Jovet

2024-03-11 19:36:31 +0000 UTC

Man between this and Attack of the Clones, I dunno which one makes me want vent myself out to space more. The Clone Wars it ain't.

Nolan

2024-03-11 19:29:58 +0000 UTC

Just an overall fun episode. But my real comment is: HAVE FUN WITH STAR TREK V, YAY!!

Andreas Schmitt

2024-03-11 19:29:10 +0000 UTC

Irish man Colm Meaney getting the script for this episode: "What the £#€% is this $#!+?"

Nolan

2024-03-11 19:28:23 +0000 UTC

I used that line in my younger days once. it worked!!

Monty Crawford

2024-03-11 19:24:18 +0000 UTC

From Memory Alpha: The episode title, "Up The Long Ladder," derives from an expression, "Up the long ladder and down the short rope," a reference to the gallows in an Irish rhyme popularized in Tommy Makem's song, "Are You Ready for a War?" Writer Snodgrass remarked, "It was intended to be a commentary about immigration ... I wanted it to be something that says ‘sometimes those outsiders you think are so smelly and wrong-colored can bring enormous benefits to your society because they bring life and energy.’ That's what I was going for." Snodgrass's boss at the time, Maury Hurley, was "a major Irishman" and loved the idea of an Irish-themed people with lots of energy.

Jovet

2024-03-11 19:20:21 +0000 UTC

I actually like this episode a lot, despite it's flaws. I think the Irish lady, Brenna, Phan Farred with Riker mainly to put some fresh blood into their DNA pool. (Women will do that, consciously and unconsciously).

Monty Crawford

2024-03-11 19:19:05 +0000 UTC

Éirinn go Brách!

Jovet

2024-03-11 19:12:41 +0000 UTC

Me too. It doesn't take itself very seriously.

Jovet

2024-03-11 19:11:00 +0000 UTC

Riker's Beard strikes again in this episode!

Terrell Harkness

2024-03-11 19:10:44 +0000 UTC

Not Riker getting lucky?

Jovet

2024-03-11 19:09:36 +0000 UTC

At least this episode features Brenna Odell!

Jovet

2024-03-11 19:08:23 +0000 UTC

It feels like humanity threw spaghetti at the wall, but the wall is space and spaghetti is human colony ships! LOL. We find random NASA spacecraft out there in The Royale. And I know it is for the story telling, so I accept it, but wow, we sure did just throw a lot humans out into space with a hope and a dream. But I think this episode does a good job of focusing on something that is overlooked based on that thought: We sent out human colony ships that probably could not have housed very many people. With the requirements for replacement rates to keep the population growing, I feel like there would have been a lot of these colonies looking for ways to survive with their population limits. If we used the Battlestar Galactica number of 50K for viable genetic pool, a lot of these colonies seem to be doomed to a lot of "questionable" relationship (i.e. brother/cousin/father) Haha

Terrell Harkness

2024-03-11 19:07:53 +0000 UTC

It is worth researching exactly where this episode's title is taken from. It is another example of just how misconceived this episode is. I'm serious, who ever provided the title of this episodes needed a dressing down from any responsible adult connected with making the show.

Numinous2019

2024-03-11 19:06:05 +0000 UTC

The look of pride Picard has when Riker immediately guesses "SOS?" is very refreshing.

Jovet

2024-03-11 19:05:57 +0000 UTC

Sorry, "funny." Although they were clearly sincere in trying to MAKE them humorous for the episode. Those damn music cues.

JD Nevesytrof

2024-03-11 19:05:49 +0000 UTC

Not just Irish... Space Irish.

Ian Westcott

2024-03-11 19:04:58 +0000 UTC

Nah.

Jovet

2024-03-11 19:04:45 +0000 UTC

Another episode where I like Pulaski! She's finally developing well. The Tea Ceremony is great. But overall, this episode is memorable for ... Space Irish. Yes, the space irish. This feels like a half-baked TOS episode, but for TNG, ugh.

Ian Westcott

2024-03-11 19:04:38 +0000 UTC

How do you feel about Riker essentially murdering his clone? What sort of precedent does that set for the human rights of clones, so soon (relatively) after Measure of a Man establishing rights for androids?

Evan Guthrie

2024-03-11 19:03:46 +0000 UTC

'Code Of Honor' played into some of the elements of racist pulp SF of the 1920's / 1930's. Especially the kidnapping of the young white female by the tribal leader.......the director may not have realised the implications of his casting choices, but the show's producers clearly couldn't condone even unintentional call-backs to that kind of pulp writing.

Numinous2019

2024-03-11 19:01:07 +0000 UTC

If memory serves the original title of the episode was “Send in the clones”

Jon1701

2024-03-11 18:59:53 +0000 UTC

I liked this one alot...Worf with measles, the Klingon Tea Ceremony and the Irish Colony. Riker gets another Girl and the Actress who plays Brenna Odell (Rosalyn Landor) is gorgeous. She is my Fav part of this one! You guys should get a kick out of this one. That's it! 🖖😀

Duane Chancey

2024-03-11 18:57:43 +0000 UTC

It’s the Irish Episode!! ☘️ 🇮🇪

Jon1701

2024-03-11 18:57:35 +0000 UTC

Wasn't that the (original Captain)/Kirk-era in a nutshell? Humanity is free to leave the planet, and so hordes of "colonies" head out to create worlds of their own. Most of early-years Trek is about tracking all of those colonies and seeing which ones survived. Hell they even launched Middle Eastern terrorists like Khan into space. Although, I guess we have to believe these ancient Irish stereotypes somehow existed in the 22nd century and stuck around in the exact same state for the next two hundred years until TNG brought them on board.

StonyD

2024-03-11 18:54:22 +0000 UTC

a mix of stereo types and a ridiculous scenario, combined with serious commentary on real issues - in some ways this is pure star trek, even if it isn't the best episode (IMO) - i do want to give Pulaski a chance every time i see her, but only kinda sorta do i like her, this episode shows a good side of her tho and of course Ryke and his mischevious smile ...

jan

2024-03-11 18:51:52 +0000 UTC

Riker.. outdoing Kirk

TalynStarburst

2024-03-11 18:50:33 +0000 UTC

Your phone auto-corrected and accidentally stuck the word "funny" in there. Oops!

StonyD

2024-03-11 18:50:11 +0000 UTC

If you thought we left comical Irish stereotypes behind with Riley and Finegan in TOS, think again! Woo boy, now this is a bad episode, one of my least favorite of the whole series. One moment that particularly bothers me is when Riker and Pulaski straight up murder their clones without batting an eye! I will grant that it had one good line: "Haven't you ever seen a woman before?" "I THOUGHT I had!"

Steven Linden

2024-03-11 18:48:07 +0000 UTC

It should tell you something that the noted Irish crewman, CHAD O'Brien, didn't have anything to do with this episode outside of work the transporter. "Mr O'Brien, can you translate for us?" "No sir, I'm afraid they're far too racist for me simple brogue ACCHHHH!" (that's the rumored script they cut)

StonyD

2024-03-11 18:47:46 +0000 UTC

I do like that Riker got Pulaski's consent before murdering her clone

SinocTheHodgeheg

2024-03-11 18:45:59 +0000 UTC

I like this one

Rich Cirivilleri

2024-03-11 18:45:24 +0000 UTC

O' It be guilty fer sertin'!

Steven Johnson

2024-03-11 18:45:17 +0000 UTC

For like 96% of the episodes, I can look at the title and remember everything that happens, for about 3% of episodes I might need to read a synopsis line. Like with the previous episode "Samaritan Snare? What was that? Oh, the Pakleds, now I remember it, yes." With this episode.....i legit do not remember anything at all. I know I've seen it because I vaguely remember Worf attempting to poison Pulaski, but she came prepared (so close). But I don't remember that as a part of this episode, i just remember that it happened. Everything about the A-plot has escaped me. I think that means this episode isn't that good.

Elway Simpson

2024-03-11 18:45:02 +0000 UTC

But DID Picard ever find all of their Lucky Charms?

StonyD

2024-03-11 18:44:30 +0000 UTC

Up the lung laddah? Mo' like Up yer lung 'ahs! Aye, we be makin' Irish jokes fo deyyyysss! It's only mildly racist.

Steven Johnson

2024-03-11 18:44:17 +0000 UTC

Noones said it yet, so allow me.. Ahem.. THE RIIIIIZZZZZ!!!

Incredible Jon

2024-03-11 18:42:55 +0000 UTC

Always enjoyed this episode, it's got great humour, a bit more klingon lore but in all honesty you could transplant this story into TOS and not bat an eyelid.

Incredible Jon

2024-03-11 18:41:58 +0000 UTC

The only good scene in this episode is Worf and Pulaski drinking the tea.

Phillip Grischa

2024-03-11 18:41:44 +0000 UTC

IRELAND! Oh and clones… yeah that’s all

Gregory

2024-03-11 18:41:39 +0000 UTC

A hoot of an episode, kind of harkens back to TOS. The solution with the females having to take on several lovers for the survival of the race made me chuckle because I had to think it was good old Gene Roddenberry that came up with that.

Mike Rogers

2024-03-11 18:40:49 +0000 UTC

Sweet Jesus, Mary & Joseph. It's 'The Quiet Man' tropes mixed in with (what I think is meant to be) a Northern Ireland parallel. The other 'colony' could be the Protestant Community (i.e. birth control = cloning & lack of DNA variation = population decline). We Irish just rolled our eyes when this was broadcast. It's lazy, hackneyed 'Oirish' stereotypes. Once described as "a colossal mess", this episode rates with the most embarrassing of ST as a whole.

Numinous2019

2024-03-11 18:38:33 +0000 UTC

Melinda Snodgrass going from measure of a man to this? Guess they all can't be bangers

SinocTheHodgeheg

2024-03-11 18:33:58 +0000 UTC

If only we got Colm in Star Trek V. The best of both!

Steven Johnson

2024-03-11 18:32:05 +0000 UTC

I feel like introducing the Irish to Klingon fire wine is just setting them up for failure in their new colony.

Jess Thomas

2024-03-11 18:27:54 +0000 UTC

If you watch in release order, Star Trek V should be next. I enjoy that more than this episode. At least this episode features O’Brien.

Paul Rymer

2024-03-11 18:24:20 +0000 UTC

Honestly, I think this episode is far more blatantly prejudiced than "Code of Honor." Every one of those people are the most stereotypical Irish people you've ever seen.

Joe Concepts

2024-03-11 18:23:58 +0000 UTC

I call this episode a guilty pleasure. It does make me ask this question and I'd like to know your thoughts: In the future, if we have "cheap" spacecraft to take us to the stars, do we just fling ships out into the far reaches and hope for the best?

Terrell Harkness

2024-03-11 18:22:36 +0000 UTC

Alex, your boy Colm Meaney, proud Irishman, said he hated this episode for obvious reasons.

Joe Concepts

2024-03-11 18:22:31 +0000 UTC

"Tree oehsbands per persahn ya say? Oi'll take deese tree Eddie Moehrphy's den."

snthd

2024-03-11 18:21:22 +0000 UTC

This one is almost as reviled as Code of Honor. And for good reason too.

Dion James Pitman

2024-03-11 18:20:39 +0000 UTC

"Racist" O'Brien should feel right at home with this one.

THE LORE!!!

2024-03-11 18:19:04 +0000 UTC

We may be exploring the stars and expanding the possibilities of our own existence, but no matter what, the "funny" drunk Irish stereotype is still alive and well.

JD Nevesytrof

2024-03-11 18:16:08 +0000 UTC

PATRON TAKES - Star Trek TNG - Season 2 Episode 18

Comments

Nothing says how much of a mixed bag Season 2 is like this episode. Feels like it's a TOS episode, predict you guys will love O'Brien and Riker in this.

I love the "Oh, no!" from O'Brien as he beams up a transporter pad full of Irish stereotypes. As if his character had read the script in advance and knew what we were all in for.

I'm VERY glad someone mentioned this. Then he covers with an improvised line like the professional he is.

Especially later in the universe it is implied doing so is murder. I won't say more than that to avoid spoilers.

But they don’t give it the usual Star Trek moral issue treatment. It could have been good, and had the same results, but it did not. Add that to the racist Irish stuff and it’s a mess of an episode

kind of cringe, and I'm not even Irish

LOL. Oh Star Trek. We can't stay mad at you

the way we start on this episode is great. very silly and light hearted for a society that has lost its home.. and that Riker charm .. but then clones, kidnapping, mind wipe, and finally polygamy the whole 9 yards.

This is the weird episode of TNG where it’s not a great episode, but for some reason I never skip it on rewatches on season 2. It’s also feels like 2 half episodes as the first half is lighthearted and the second half is stark and deals with the metaphysics of cloning.

So, about those bad season two episodes... Wow, this episode has not aged well at all! As I recall it wasn't that well regarded back when it first aired either.

I, along with many others, have always wondered about that.

This year they should be able to get through seasons 2, 3, and 4 of TNG.

I think it was a nice touch that the women got 3 husbands, instead of the more commonly seen man with 3 wives situation.

Loved her as well

Very true

100%

It WAS a huge deal at the time. And this felt very sci-fi fantasy when I first watched it. Lots of what if questions in this episode.

I'm always going easy on Star Trek too. Lol

"Madam, have you ever considered working in security?" One of my favorite lines from Worf up to that point.

Jovet, my point is this episode is lazy writing. Instead of doing something clever with the tropes, the tropes are just dredged up (stock elements). This was a prime time show in a very well known franchise. There's a responsibility to the paying audience to aim higher.

I love this info. I feel like even when Star Trek misses the mark or something doesn't Age well for some, the original intention is always well meaning.

This is one of those episodes in which I laugh and bow to the absurdity as Picard did. :)

Good trek would have explored the moral ramifications of all this, or at least considered grey areas, even if the end was the same. But nope. Just a quick zap. A great issue for trek to examine, but not handled well here (nor was anything else in this episode)

Well, I’ve done more than my fair share of drinking Irish whiskey, and standing in the fire so that’s not an invalid question, Mr. wharf!

I *want* to laff at this. I really do!

Oh boy. This one is pretty bad, what with the "drunken Irish layabouts" stereotyping and all. What's worse is the forced resolution that OUR CREW endorses. "Eh, y'all should just bang." A low point in the season IMO.

That guess about the title relating to DNA does you credit. That's smart thinking.

She's one of my most-favorite TNG characters! She's amazing!!

No, it was not. I suspect you're confusing triplet brothers Floyd Weaver, Troy Weaver, and Lloyd Weaver for Murphy.

Although this episode is somewhat maligned today, it has been one of my very favorite episodes since I saw it back when it first aired. It also has one of the most cold/badass lines Pulaski has ever spoken.

Not as bad as the space hippies I guess

I've always enjoyed this one, despite the crazy Irish stuff. The idea of cloning against your will is an interesting question, and Pulaski really works with this story.

Oh it’s the Irish immigrants episode. Oh boy buckle up boys. This one is still a bit of heat from most Irish people (I mean real Irish not Irish Americans)

I'm starting to think that Riker could rizz a potted plant if he really wanted to.

I don't know that they'll manage it this year, but they're certainly closer than they've ever been 🍀

Never noticed that before! How interesting. No wonder Troi could have all of those episodes off work.

There's another Irish reference in Season 3 that I think will land, very appropriately, this year.

They were so cheery, have to admit..

Let's see if Pulaski covering for Worf and Klingon tea ceremony scene finally warms them up to her character.

I like to think this was formative for Tarantino. :-D

He looked better like that than I would have given Colm credit for. Thank goodness he didn't shave his legs -- he looks better with the "wild, natural" look.

This episode is far more blatantly racist, because the Irish stereotypes are there at the script level. Nothing in Code of Honour's script says the characters are black. It was the episode's director who took it there.

That's not a spoiler. If you'd mentioned Pulaski's depraved one night stand with O'Brien, THAT would have been a spoiler. Not sure I'll ever get the image of Miles in fishnet stockings and a black lace teddy out of my head.

About Brenna Odell. .... What a powerhouse of a woman! That lady is wickedly strong-willed and stern when it comes to dealing with any issue, and quick on her feet in decision-making. Imagine her as Worf's assistant Security Chief on board - she would be absolutely formidable!

Was that EDDIE MURPHY as one of the clone sets on that planet? I've read rumored reports that it was, and also that it wasn't. (He is a Star Trek fan and was almost cast as the whale biologist in ST: IV The Voyage Home, but as we know, that didn't happen.)

I'm sure this will come up again when the time is right.

After the Bringloidi guests left the Enterprise, how many eggs do you think were found that the little girl's chicken laid in the corridors...?

Geordi just casually mentions that he has 'polygraph vision' in this episode. No biggie.

The European Hegemony mentioned early in the episode was the writer's prediction of what basically became the European Union that exists today.

So absurd. The lines "Send in the clones" and "some clone lied to me", I also find eye-rollingly hilarious.

That's what I keep telling people.

💯

Exactly the sort of question ST is meant to explore. I’d like to say something else about equivalence much later in ST but spoilers!

A significant moral question that gets completely glossed over

The clones are humans. What right do they have to murder them anymore than the right to murder your identical twin?

I think the Irish are used to it. Now, if you excuse me, I’m gonna go have a bowl of Lucky Charms.

Picard 'breaking' and laughing at the absurdity was an unexpected highlight. He's slowly coming out of his shell.

The goofy Irish crap is just as “racist” as code of honor. It is funny that the cast don’t unanimously condemn this episode. That being said, I love the scenes with Pulaski and Worf.

Clones? ..... Clones? ..... CLONES.

Solid scene, which builds on both characters.

This episode is a tonal roller coaster. You wouldn't expect goofy Irish stereotype gags followed by being abducted for your DNA and then killing unborn clones of yourselves to be in one episode, but there you are!

I can only imagine Irish people watching this cringe as badly at these accents as I do with Scotty's accent in TOS. At least Scotty was a great character!

This one makes me roll my eyes like I'm a 14-year-old

For me it's...not one of their best. Your buddy Colm Meaney hates it because of the Irish stereotypes. The clone jokes get old pretty quickly. On the other hand, Worf and Pulaski have some nice bonding moments. My ranking for this one is “At Least It's Only 45ish Minutes”.

How? How did you manage to have the single most offensively stereotypical Irish episode of TNG land so that its access dates will bracket St Patrick's Day? Well done, lads, I suppose.

I love this one. I don't care what anyone else says. It is fun and hits a topic that was a huge deal at the time, cloning

This is probably me being too easy on TNG again but I like this episode. Depictions of Irish people going cross eyed drinking booze aside, it has some fun siliness, great scenes with Worf and Pulaski, and even a bit of body horror in the kidnapping/cloning scenes

One of those "so bad it's good" episodes for me.

There is a Tarantino joke in there somewhere.

After the last episode I was wrong…. It got worse colm meaney probably thought they were taking the piss with this script… and that feet scene

Yikes. Along with the last episode, I'm tempted to skip this one too but I will watch because through you guys I always see something of value.

I would like to see her and Worf have a relationship (no spoilers)

I can't see any reason it wouldn't be. Melinda Snodgrass, the writer, seemed to think it was a pro-choice statement, but this isn't a fetus we're talking about; it's an adult human.

It's not a pizza till you pull it out of the oven! No, it's a pizza the minute you knead the dough!

Is it murder?

Man between this and Attack of the Clones, I dunno which one makes me want vent myself out to space more. The Clone Wars it ain't.

Just an overall fun episode. But my real comment is: HAVE FUN WITH STAR TREK V, YAY!!

Irish man Colm Meaney getting the script for this episode: "What the £#€% is this $#!+?"

I want to laff at this. I really do!