FULL DISCUSSION - Star Trek TNG S2E9 - The Measure of a Man
Added 2024-02-15 16:45:33 +0000 UTC
Comments
I just don't know why they had to make it about pronouns. I was just trying to enjoy this completely non-woke show and BOOM out of nowhere, f***in' pronouns! They have to ruin everything with their d***hit ideology! ***SARCASM*** In all seriousness, yeah, you guys get it. Yep. TNG is an entertaining show for most people, but overthinkers... yeah, kinda our jam.
Burrito Vampire
2024-03-03 23:22:46 +0000 UTC"The part where Riker becomes the prosecuting attorney is still ridiculous. Forcing someone to become a lawyer? Isn't that a form of slavery TOO!?!" It's his *duty*. In some ways the military (at least the US military) is like slavery, or maybe more like indentured servitude, because while you can volunteer for it (unless there is a draft) you also have a period of time in which you are legally bound to serve, under risk of prosecution. Starfleet seems different, more like a regular career, in that you can pretty much resign when you want but you lose your rank and may not be eligible for re-enlistment. This is because Starfleet facilitates exploration as its primary goal, not military intervention/conquest. "What if Riker had won? Imagine that." That would have been awful, for Data, and Riker, and of course the audience. "The Enterprise does not have a lawyer-type officer? Such officers were very common during the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan." JAGs are used a lot in wars to advise military commanders on whether something they want to do is legal or not (within the rules of war; there is a broader question on the legality of wars like Iraq in the first place, which was based on fabricated evidence). They also try soldiers who may have been involved in illegal activities. These are not the sorts of concerns you get from a peaceful exploration mission, and even if there were any which arose, they can be recalled to Starfleet HQ for legal processing. "They didn't want to pay for a prosecuting attorney character actor or extra officers or jury members. They just wanted to give Riker something to do." More likely the latter, as it also makes for better drama. "When Star Trek: the Next Generation started one of my friends seemed to think that the idea of an android being the second officer of the ship was a ridiculous idea. I kind of thought that way too, but I just went all with it as the show had not even aired yet." Had he never read much sci-fi? Truly conscious AI is pretty commonplace in it, and with Data, he earned that rank just like any biological officer "As computers function simply by processing binary 1s and 0s, it seems to me that Data should not have been allowed to have sole command of the Enterprise -- under normal circumstances." Data is clearly qualitatively different than a 21st century computer, with a very advanced neural network. "(He had a special brain? Then shouldn't almost all space travel then be left to androids?)" People have made that argument before: just create a bunch of Soong androids like Data and staff entire ships with them. This totally misses the point of space travel as people wanting to explore and learn, not just information collection. "Placing Data as such an infallible character with few flaws transformed him into more of a Kathleen Kennedy-type Mary Sue character." Every officer on the Enterprise, the Federation's flag ship, are the best in their fields. It would make sense that a highly-competent android would serve on that ship as well. He's isn't flawless, but about as flawed as the rest of the main cast. I find it hilarious you reference Kathleen Kennedy as if she invented the Mary Sue trope or personally makes character design decisions on all of Disney's properties. If anything, Wesley Crusher as originally devised was a Mary Sue (or Gary Stu, as the male version is called), as he was a boy genius and basically Roddenberry's self-insert. The writers subverted that pretty quickly though. Re. the George Glider quote, remember this show takes place 350 years in the future, and we here in 2024 have only had electronic computing for about 8 decades, the first neural networks were only devised like 3-4 decades ago, and look how far we've advanced. While there might be upper limits which are far more modest than what we see in sci-fi, its part of sci-fi to speculate about what can be. Pedantically confining sci-fi to what we currently know seems to miss the point of the genre entirely
Vina
2024-03-03 15:34:30 +0000 UTCThe part where Riker becomes the prosecuting attorney is still ridiculous. Forcing someone to become a lawyer? Isn't that a form of slavery TOO!?! What if Riker had won? Imagine that. The Enterprise does not have a lawyer-type officer? Such officers were very common during the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Why was there no jury or set of judges in this episode like in Kirk's Court Martial episode or the Menagerie where three officers of commander and/or captain rank were required. They didn't want to pay for a prosecuting attorney character actor or extra officers or jury members. They just wanted to give Riker something to do. Parts of the episodes were a good or great idea, but it did not seem to be executed well. When Star Trek: the Next Generation started one of my friends seemed to think that the idea of an android being the second officer of the ship was a ridiculous idea. I kind of thought that way too, but I just went all with it as the show had not even aired yet. As computers function simply by processing binary 1s and 0s, it seems to me that Data should not have been allowed to have sole command of the Enterprise -- under normal circumstances. (He had a special brain? Then shouldn't almost all space travel then be left to androids?) Placing Data as such an infallible character with few flaws transformed him into more of a Kathleen Kennedy-type Mary Sue character. Furthermore, the amount of energy required for a computer to complete many of the same functions as a human is extraordinary. George Gilder has written about this saying, "...the human mind ... takes a zettabyte of data, 10 to the 21st power, a number beyond imagination, to map the connections on the human brain. ...the entire connectome of the nematode worm, (one knows) less about it than he did when he started. 'And even after mapping a worm's brain, we still don't understand it!' ...When I read about the human brain being a zettabyte, I was really excited, it was an epiphany: Mapping the whole global internet takes about a zettabyte. EACH INDIVIDUAL HUMAN BRAIN IS ABOUT AS COMPLEXLY-CONNECTED AS THE (ENTIRE) GLOBAL INTERNET."
Chtphr Rrr
2024-03-02 22:34:00 +0000 UTCFirst memorable scene for Riker's poker game, one of my favorite recurring bits. Geordi & Worf are terrible at poker, iirc, but you'd think Troi would roll the table every week. Nah, apparently, Riker is that good.
Juan Tutrífor
2024-02-25 23:22:50 +0000 UTCFunny enough, this episode was shown in my college science fiction writing class. Loved getting to write a paper based on one of my favorite TNG episodes.
And the rest!
2024-02-18 23:18:21 +0000 UTCWhat was interesting about Maddox is that he really isn't a bad guy. He was driven and single-minded about Data, but you could see his face changing as Picard was arguing Data's case. Picard even convinced him. He didn't sulk at the end and even looked happy.
KatWithAttitude
2024-02-18 14:51:30 +0000 UTCI loved those nitpicker guides!
John M.
2024-02-18 11:49:11 +0000 UTCThanks for reading my take. I do enjoy the episode, but it would have worked better for me if the premise were in the context of Data's admittance to Starfleet (something we did not see).
Evan Guthrie
2024-02-18 00:42:12 +0000 UTCYes, I think they were talking over it.
Anthony Bernacchi
2024-02-17 15:32:09 +0000 UTCTo argue the third criteria, they could use the fact that when computer was asked to create a Holodeck program to defeat Data, it had to create a consciousness. Definitely one of my favorite episodes and enjoyed watching your reaction and discussion.
Atieh B
2024-02-17 02:41:00 +0000 UTCI think the way the trial burden of proof played, was based on her initial finding. She initially ruled that based on I believe they were called " The Acts of Cumberland" That Data was considered property. So, the hearing was about proving that existing law didn't apply to Data, because he wasn't the same as, say the Enterprise computer. To me, the biggest problem with the whole argument, is that Data was not created by, or for ,Starfleet. He was only in Starfleet of his own chosing. The only argument otherwise would be that Starfleet claimed him as salvage from a wiped out colony.
Nathan Cline
2024-02-17 01:49:55 +0000 UTCI could be wrong but I think they missed the wrapping paper scene after he unwraps the gift with Pulaski next to him.
Smear Campaign
2024-02-16 23:08:31 +0000 UTCthank you :)
Captain Proton
2024-02-16 22:57:29 +0000 UTCWell the uncanny valley is a real thing, so I can see that
StonyD
2024-02-16 21:16:40 +0000 UTCWell, we're talking about the bridge crew who couldn't hear possessed Data whistling two feet away in Schizoid Man LOL....but you make a fair point.
StonyD
2024-02-16 21:14:04 +0000 UTCOh yeah absolutely! it can totally come across that way. That's why the scene afterwards is pretty important when Picard calls up all the regulations for the transfer of officers.
DataDroid
2024-02-16 19:38:53 +0000 UTCThe slavery stuff was of course extra powerful because it was presented as something that did not occur to Picard, because that nasty stuff is ancient history to earth and the Federation. And the person who walks him towards the slavery aspect, had just in real life, like 3 years before this episode aired, won all sorts of awards for the movie the Colour Purple, which has obvious slavery roots and racism throughout. Basically its really easy to forget now, but the significance of a major star like her joining Star Trek the tv show as a recurring character was absolutely off the charts.
Derek Orr
2024-02-16 19:26:02 +0000 UTCLater Lore on the bridge says it in front of everyone and he’s like “If I can’t trust the bridge crew who can I trust?” Practically everyone is there because Crusher is like “Didn’t you swear me to secrecy?”
Philbot
2024-02-16 19:25:40 +0000 UTCright but random individual officers don't get to raise their hand and say hey wait a minute..that person who graduated the academy and has a command position on the flagship...I say he is not a sentient being with rights, lets have a hearing !
Derek Orr
2024-02-16 19:14:32 +0000 UTCI've always imagined there was a cut scene where they turn Data back on....he realizes what happened and immediately draws a phaser and stuns Maddox and says well there, I turned him off too:)
Derek Orr
2024-02-16 19:13:09 +0000 UTCTrue, but even before that....Starfleet found him....and accepted him into the academy...promoted him..made him 3rd in command the freaking flagship Enterprise. Starfleet doesn't graduate and give officer status to inanimate objects.
Derek Orr
2024-02-16 19:11:36 +0000 UTCyup its a very weird hang up with have, likely tied to religion and old superstitions about souls and stuff. We can't yet seem to admit that our brains are just meat computers
Derek Orr
2024-02-16 19:08:08 +0000 UTCI think you'll find many of us "nerds" and "geeks" are that way because we are "on the spectrum." I don't believe Data has any emotions. Compare Lore and Data. Lore has emotions, Data does not. However, Data's history of interaction with human beings "programs him" to relate to humans and their emotions in ways that those humans can relate to, and I believe that this behavior can mimic having emotions himself. And I believe this is a natural emergence of his character being well-written! So, don't anyone be fooled.
Jovet
2024-02-16 18:35:27 +0000 UTCWhy would the admiral participate? He's not part of the Enterprise command. When there is no JAG staff, this is how it was in the USN back when this episode was written. Snodgrass consulted Navy JAG officers.
Darin Wagner
2024-02-16 18:35:06 +0000 UTCI've also thought about this over the years: the scene with Data and Picard, where Picard is urging Data to think about it for the good of Starfleet or whatever. Data talks about bionic eyes, and Picard pipes right down and just says "That will be all." A human might interpret that negatively, like, "Did I say something wrong? Why did he kick me out?"
Jovet
2024-02-16 18:29:58 +0000 UTCAnd there are bigger tearjerkers than that coming. I'm still so excited for Alex and Josh!!
Jovet
2024-02-16 18:28:09 +0000 UTCI know exactly what you mean. He came across almostly yawnfully selfish.
Jovet
2024-02-16 18:27:09 +0000 UTCThe emotion I feel in response to people "afraid of AI" is pretty unique to me. It's like a form of desperate frustration. It's hard to explain. The easiest thing for people who have no clue about it is that everything trendy these days is hyped to sell something, usually web article or video clicks. The "AI" fad is no different. I almost hate to foreshadow but... It... will... pass.
Jovet
2024-02-16 18:23:34 +0000 UTCThe restaurant thing is sort of a spoiler, but I do think a society without money would have restaurants -- people would still want to eat out.
Anthony Bernacchi
2024-02-16 16:51:19 +0000 UTCAnd McCoy has the fantastic line, "I'd never thought I'd say this to a patient, but you owe me something." Which means the Federation has universal healthcare.
Anthony Bernacchi
2024-02-16 16:48:54 +0000 UTCA further complicating factor is the working assumption that the Universal Translator is always in operation for the audience to translate 24th-century English ("Federation Standard") into 20th/21st-century English. So 24th-century idioms are presumably replaced by 20th-century equivalents, and many subtleties may get lost in translation. (Spock mentions flypaper in "The Corbomite Maneuver," and Phil Farrand, the author of the "Nitpicker's Guide" books from the 1990s, complained that one of his children already didn't know what flypaper was at that time. I think flypaper has made something of a comeback since then, but the word in "Corbomite" could well be a replacement for a different word that Spock "really" said.)
Anthony Bernacchi
2024-02-16 16:43:31 +0000 UTCIt's a hobby. ;-)
Sam Langanke
2024-02-16 15:20:50 +0000 UTCIn what scene? I thought Crusher said she would keep it quiet because Data said "If you had an off switch, would you advertise it to the world?" (or words to that effect). I could have sworn she agreed to keep it a secret between them.
StonyD
2024-02-16 15:16:46 +0000 UTCAlthough I find it a bit too convinient. They are on an starbase where many ships dock and many captains would be avalable. We even see many members of different crews. And what happend to the admiral?
Sam Langanke
2024-02-16 15:15:17 +0000 UTC@Tony Bain The hype train and the fearmongering train are in a tug 'o war!
Jovet
2024-02-16 10:48:09 +0000 UTC@Ian Westcott Season 6 story seems to say otherwise. We'll have to wait until the guys get there...
Jovet
2024-02-16 10:45:40 +0000 UTCMy head canon is similar to yours, Nolan. Memory Alpha has an entry on money that includes a list of times when references to money were "figures of speech," but there are times when it REALLY stretches credulity. One them made me laugh out loud, actually, but it's from movie No. 6 so I can't mention it here.
John M.
2024-02-16 09:49:49 +0000 UTCI think the reason people always hate on synths is because they’re not biological. There could be some strange alien species that is one eyed, one horned, flying, purple people pleasers but as long as they are living biological life forms they will be more excepted than an android.
Philbot
2024-02-16 07:38:12 +0000 UTCThe burden of proof always lies with the prosecution in every trial ever. Starfleet and the crew were treating data like a regular officer until Maddox challenged Data's position within starfleet.
kevin coleman
2024-02-16 06:35:38 +0000 UTCI thought that became common knowledge after DataLore.
Philbot
2024-02-16 05:52:01 +0000 UTCRight. Autistic people aren't emotionless, not at all. But many have no inherent intuition of understanding human emotions - in others or even themselves. They feel emotions but couldn't tell you what exactly it is they're feeling. Or recognizing what emotions another person is displaying. It's a slow process of learning for many, like it is for Data to learn and understand the range of human emotions and what they mean.
DataDroid
2024-02-16 05:44:05 +0000 UTCThere seems to be times when they use money and times when they don't. No spoiling so I'll just stick to things already shown...in Encounter At Farpoint Beverly is looking at some cloth and buys it with her federation credits. A easy explanation might be they don't really need money for most anything (like food) and replicated objects. But it might still be useful for things that can't be replicated, and for interacting with other societies that do use money.
Greg Quinn
2024-02-16 04:33:06 +0000 UTCFor that matter you can turn off a human with a choke hold or some medication. And in Star Trek world you can turn them off with a Vulcan neck pinch.
Greg Quinn
2024-02-16 03:35:25 +0000 UTCDo NOT get me started on how Joseph Sisko runs a restaurant in New Orleans.
Richard Finch
2024-02-16 02:21:07 +0000 UTCThe "no money, ever" thing seems a bit more of a Season 1 thing. When TNG was at its utopianest.
Ian Westcott
2024-02-16 02:08:06 +0000 UTCThat's still a matter of debate.
Monty Crawford
2024-02-16 02:00:52 +0000 UTCOr a lot of episodes are good BECAUSE O'Brien is in them? ;p
StonyD
2024-02-16 00:35:46 +0000 UTCIf you notice the screen icon blinking, and the location...his smile is realizing he has a real argument because he just discovered the secret "off switch" that only Dr Crusher knew about (flashback to the S1 ep Lore where he had to confide in Crusher who kept it a secret under patient/doctor confidentiality). Then he immediately deflates when he realizes what his argument will do, and what he has to do.
StonyD
2024-02-16 00:27:47 +0000 UTCSentience is subjective, too. Where is the philosophical line between programmed sentience and sentience derived from the structure of neurons in the human brain? Can a positronic brain inherently provide the same kinds of structures?
Jovet
2024-02-16 00:19:49 +0000 UTCI wondered if they would react to that, and they didn't. *shrug*
Jovet
2024-02-16 00:17:05 +0000 UTCI don't believe this episode has or says anything about Artificial Intelligence, at least as it exists today or when it was produced. There are quite a few things today that ignorant people label "AI" which are not, and what is "AI" is not free will or free thought, but a many-faceted programmed filter. It's like being in awe of or afraid of the toaster because it "knows" when to pop up your toast.
Jovet
2024-02-16 00:14:51 +0000 UTCI've always taken refences to money such as "You Buying?" to be a tongue in cheek reference to outdated concepts. Not many people nowadays are putting carts before horses, for example, yet we understand what it means. "You buying?" could just be a quick aphorism to determine the mood/type of social event they're planning. It might very well be Louvois asking if they were going to bang afterwards cause it's a date. Regarding Poker, given the scientific nature and exploration type personalities future humans of this era of Trek seem to have, I take it as more about the experience of betting, bluffing and beating opponents in a theoretical sense to be the driving motivator, rather than monitary risk. It's about who's better, not who won more. They're betting their reputations. Any other references to what someting costs, might just be an analysis of the value of resources put into something. Things can have a cost beyond money. just cause that's all corporations and billionaires care about doesn't mean it's the only thing worth value. lets not as a society fall into THAT line of thinking.
Nolan
2024-02-16 00:08:12 +0000 UTCIt's easy to be logical (e.g. just resign Starfleet) when one isn't emotionally encumbered.
Jovet
2024-02-16 00:05:36 +0000 UTCI love Data. I hate I AI.
Nolan
2024-02-15 23:57:55 +0000 UTCAbsolutely, and I'm sorry if it came across as though I think watching your friends lose their rights is the _only_ thing the episode is about, because I definitely wouldn't want to argue that. It's also very much about standing up for people who are being denied recognition as people (and many other things.)
badvertised
2024-02-15 23:51:05 +0000 UTCRiker vs. Picard, round 2! Picard surrendered to Riker's Klingon ship in the previous episode, but in a court battle, even Riker can't withstand a full-force Picard speech.
Jeff Cornell
2024-02-15 23:12:56 +0000 UTCI think the main value of the slavery aspect of things is that that's what essentially flipped the burden of proof about Data's sentience. Of Maddox's three criteria for sentience, the only one that can't actually be proven is consciousness, since consciousness is inherently subjective. As long as the hearing was just about Data, it seemed reasonable to suppose that an artificial brain couldn't be conscious like ours are. But the slavery side of things raised the stakes so high that the risk of being wrong about that became intolerable.
Jeff Cornell
2024-02-15 23:09:23 +0000 UTCHe wasn't actually confused about the uniforms. That was just his segue into the video sponsor ad for some suit company. "Why wear these weird outfits to court when you could be wearing one of these fine suits".
Jeff Cornell
2024-02-15 22:59:22 +0000 UTC"Who's Buying" is a figure of speech. Its like watching movies with rich people offering to buy another a drink while in the house from their personal bar. LoL Earth and the majority of, if not all of the planets in The Federation dont use money or currency. However there are definitly other cultures and planets outside The Federation that do use some form of physical currency.
Toysruskiddd
2024-02-15 22:52:25 +0000 UTCYou two missed another name drop and this one came from TOS. Bruce maddox is from the Daystrom Institute which is named after Doctor Richard Daystrom from the episode The Ultimate Computer where his creation (The M5) took over the ship.
Toysruskiddd
2024-02-15 22:41:07 +0000 UTCIt seems like O'Brien is in a lot of the good episodes
harrypothead42024
2024-02-15 22:22:36 +0000 UTCI always took Riker looking at Data’s schematics he could see his heart his “soul”.
Philbot
2024-02-15 21:27:45 +0000 UTCLove your name!
GreenCauldron08
2024-02-15 21:25:50 +0000 UTCCouldn’t Maddox have represented himself? For the same reasons Riker was chosen.
Philbot
2024-02-15 21:25:16 +0000 UTCI don’t think any humans need money, there’s some kind of credit system for other races like Crusher buying fabric. Starfleet will probably actually give out “Currency” to officers for dealing with other races like Disney bucks. Because it’s worthless to humans but can be used in interactions with Ferengi or other peoples.
Philbot
2024-02-15 21:22:09 +0000 UTCweird that anyone would be confused by that. It's a starfleet tribunal about starfleet regulations.
Derek Orr
2024-02-15 20:41:16 +0000 UTCGreat discussion and very good points! Josh, I share your opinion on the court system 100%.
Captain Proton
2024-02-15 20:23:05 +0000 UTCThat's why I think, too, the point isn't necessarily does Data have emotions. Even when he himself says he doesn't, there are hints that he does. You could argue, maybe he does, but he just doesn't express emotions the same way most people do. No one would suggest people on the spectrum (or any other types of conditions) are emotionless, just that the expressing and processing of them may be outwardly different.
Joe Concepts
2024-02-15 20:04:03 +0000 UTC🙂🤣
Numinous2019
2024-02-15 19:58:08 +0000 UTCTo that point, I will state that there are DELETED SCENES from TOS that are being shown on YouTube as well, including Kirk's nephew, recovered and visiting the bridge at the end of "Operation: Annihilate!" and a longer scene in the briefing room when Khan has taken the bridge crew hostage, and McCoy stands up against him..........
Rhett Coates
2024-02-15 19:55:06 +0000 UTCTo TA's comments regarding if there were any times the automatic doors didn't open in time and someone crashed into them (said during the watching of the episode), check out Star Trek BLOOPER reels, many of which are on YouTube. TOS, TNG, and many others...... just be certain you don't watch bloopers from anywhere past this point of TNG Season Two. Shatner has, I think, the most door-crashes, in 'Trek history.
Rhett Coates
2024-02-15 19:52:30 +0000 UTCGood to see the Regula 1 station model again
SinocTheHodgeheg
2024-02-15 19:32:02 +0000 UTCThanks for confirming. I had always thought that was a little too contrived.
Collin Freeman
2024-02-15 19:22:28 +0000 UTCGotta admit, I'm surprised at how this episode continues to be interpreted as debating whether AI has rights when it seems like the power of the episode is that it's about how people can watch their friends lose their rights. Guinan's conversation with Picard is moving precisely because she's having to find a way to break the news to Picard that while he's been asking whether Data is alive, he's lost sight of the crime being perpetrated in front of him of his friend being turned into property.
badvertised
2024-02-15 19:22:24 +0000 UTCThat thing about the Captain being the defense and the XO being the prosecution is real. That was based on Navy JAG regs.
Darin Wagner
2024-02-15 19:11:00 +0000 UTCYeah, Maddox makes Pulaski look like Polyanna when it comes to the subject of Data's sentience.
Darin Wagner
2024-02-15 19:07:14 +0000 UTCI agree it doesn't make much sense in a world with replicators, but it's referenced all the time and people always say, "There is no money!" when the franchise is "definitive" in both directions.
John M.
2024-02-15 19:04:49 +0000 UTCCity on the Edge of Forever vs Measure of a Man. Tough choice, but I would have to go with City. As a entire series, I think TNG is the best overall as a Star Trek series from beginning to end. But there are about a dozen TOS episodes that are classics, both for sci-fi and TV in general, that no other series can touch, City being 1 of those.
Collin Freeman
2024-02-15 19:03:43 +0000 UTCJust noting the one minor fault for it. But he is going by more civilian courts rather than military
CM Waters
2024-02-15 19:02:27 +0000 UTCThe Measure of a Man is exactly that, it's timeless. The themes and discussion within are, as of [current year], still entirely relevant. It's also a fucking great episode of television.
Mara
2024-02-15 18:58:06 +0000 UTCOMG! It's been stuck in my craw for a while now, but the name "Amanda McBroom" rang a bell so deep within me I couldn't figure out where it was for ages. Well, I just figured it out. She wrote the song THE ROSE (for the movie of the same name). Bette Midler's performance of that song popularized it.
Jovet
2024-02-15 18:54:20 +0000 UTCI'm on the Autism spectrum. While I personally have no problems with emotions I see many parallels in Data. Missing social cues, the tendency to overshare, taking things too literally and thus missing the intended meaning behind it are just some instances I can relate. There actually was a doctor, Dr. Sacks, who spoke to Brent Spiner and let him know that he learned that autistic people can relate to Data very well and he even said that Data was the 'poster boy' for people on the spectrum. He mentioned one patient who said that Data was the only one he could relate to.
DataDroid
2024-02-15 18:50:12 +0000 UTCI don't think I agree with that, but that's ... intriguing.
Jovet
2024-02-15 18:50:05 +0000 UTCI can understand other cultures still using money, but it's clear that human culture (and the Federation in general) has no need for the stuff.
Jovet
2024-02-15 18:49:03 +0000 UTCI think I agree
Jovet
2024-02-15 18:47:15 +0000 UTCFantastic discussion guys. I enjoyed every second of that 55 minutes.
Ca$hWednesday
2024-02-15 18:35:24 +0000 UTCThe question of how is Data NOT human gets more complex when you consider that there are many folks on the Autism spectrum whose lived experience with "emotions" can be very similar to Data's.
Julie Carter
2024-02-15 18:31:59 +0000 UTCBest not to think about the money thing too hard. There are a couple of very prominent mentions of no money in the movies (including 4, which youve seen) but also a crapton of references to money dating back to the old show right up into the most recent seasons of NuTrek. I've read reasonable explanations of how it works (basically federation citizens don't require money, there's no scarcity, but you can earn money for luxury such as vacations if you so choose.) But don't think it's ever been explained on screen.
John M.
2024-02-15 18:26:10 +0000 UTCTARS from InterStellar would change your mind about sentient box-like machines
C_Drew
2024-02-15 18:19:25 +0000 UTCYa, there is a data episode that really did make me shed tears.
Monty Crawford
2024-02-15 18:18:11 +0000 UTC28:55 Yes, this is a thinking man's show. At least, ideally.
Jovet
2024-02-15 18:17:57 +0000 UTCGreat discussion. One of you, I think it was Josh, said something to the effect that Data doesn’t understand jokes or social cues but still on other occasions comes across as so advanced. I think his advancement is especially notable when a normal human emotional reaction would be a negative one. For example the end scene with Riker, who probably felt like Data should be mad at him. But Data is able to assess human behavior logically and that is what he puts out for the others to hear and make them reflect on their own behavior and seeing it through an unemotional lens sometimes is better but often what humans can’t do. And that’s when the difference in him in a positive way comes out the strongest.
DataDroid
2024-02-15 18:00:23 +0000 UTC……..okay?
Ragnarok
2024-02-15 17:59:20 +0000 UTCHe did get confused about why they were wearing their uniforms though.
CM Waters
2024-02-15 17:57:37 +0000 UTC8:20 It was just a hearing, not any kind of full trial. No need for a jury.
Jovet
2024-02-15 17:57:31 +0000 UTC0:33 "I cried" CALLED IT! LOL! (Actually not for this one, but, there's much heavier stuff coming...)
Jovet
2024-02-15 17:49:48 +0000 UTCInteresting that you thought Brian Brophy was over acting a little. I always thought Amanda McBroom was over acting a little.
Collin Freeman
2024-02-15 17:37:54 +0000 UTCGrowing up with the trope of android/robot characters in scifi I always thought "of course Data is sentient" and found it hard to think about how anyone could see he wasn't. Now that we have AI technology emerging and we understand the basics of how it works I can understand how people would be skeptical.
Doug
2024-02-15 17:31:50 +0000 UTCThis episode has actually been used in high school and college classes to discuss exactly what you talked about. It was written by a former lawyer, so that helped it, I'm sure.
Collin Freeman
2024-02-15 17:29:49 +0000 UTCThis is in my top 3 Star Trek episodes of TNG. So well done.
Collin Freeman
2024-02-15 17:28:24 +0000 UTCPersonally I consider this the first truly great episode of TNG. Which isn't to say there weren't other good episodes before it, but if I'm trying to give my friends a list of episodes to watch to get a feel for the best of the series, this is generally the first episode on my list.
Joshua Hartman
2024-02-15 17:21:57 +0000 UTCThe fact we got a tear near the end there made ME tear up even more! 🥹 But hey, I'm an emotional mess. So glad you guys loved this one!
Lady Beyond The Wall
2024-02-15 17:15:31 +0000 UTCI’d REALLY suggest the LegalEagle YouTube video reacting to the law and court aspects of this episode. It’s awesome.
Ragnarok
2024-02-15 16:54:15 +0000 UTCThis is definitely one of my favorite episodes. One of the standouts of season 2.
Michael Schwarz
2024-02-15 16:52:01 +0000 UTC
