Target Audience / PATRON TAKES - Star Trek TNG

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Jovet

2024-02-29 02:10:24 +0000 UTC

sorry - cat stepped on the keyboard and hit send too soon - one of the best episodes of anything ever! at least for me - i'm super excited i just joined LOVE your work - and you are finally seeing Ryker get some good scenes - "There it sits!"

jan

2024-02-24 19:09:16 +0000 UTC

i see several commenters agree with me - +one

jan

2024-02-24 19:07:13 +0000 UTC

I get your point, hence my "On TV? Sure" comment. The rest of my comment though is more just that I don't think it's particularly fair to generalize an entire country's court system as "theatrical and a play to the gallery", nor the rest of the world's court systems as being "solemn and analytical". That's all.

Lady Beyond The Wall

2024-02-16 01:08:49 +0000 UTC

We’re talking about a landmark case that changes the definition of life, not a short changed baby sitter on Judge Judy.

Smear Campaign

2024-02-15 15:06:14 +0000 UTC

On TV? Sure. Some filmed, very public court cases? Yes sometimes. But the VAST majority of US court cases? They're just "solemn and analytical".

Lady Beyond The Wall

2024-02-15 15:00:31 +0000 UTC

"Naval Construction Contract" has been embraced by at least one tabletop game (FASA, I think) but yeah, it's in no way canonical. "Naval Construction Contract" also doesn't make any sense and sounds more like old Soviet nomenclature. Starfleet is based on the US Navy moreso than the US Coast Guard (which is itself based on the Navy) in terms of verbiage and culture. A ship's hull symbol, like "SSN" and "CVN," typically identifies the type of vessel it is. I did a video about this on my channel (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c34vtzNGdmY).

Darin Wagner

2024-02-15 13:20:31 +0000 UTC

🙄

Jovet

2024-02-15 12:21:55 +0000 UTC

@Rhett Coates Not buying that one. Pun intended. "Credits" would still be money. I suspect we will have to wait a while to have a proper, non-spoilery discussion about this.

Jovet

2024-02-15 12:17:20 +0000 UTC

Nah. The "credits" often referred to (from TOS straight through the entirety of the 'Trek franchise) are used to "pay" for items "bought" wherever Starfleet personnel (read: Federation residents) go. It's apparently some form of futuristic, pre-paid barter system, although I'm not certain what merits it's based upon within the Star Trek universe.

Rhett Coates

2024-02-15 09:52:46 +0000 UTC

It's definitely ONE of the episodes we have been waiting for TA to get to. There are many more, and there is another (no spoilers) one which I, for one, am almost holding my breath for them to see...........

Rhett Coates

2024-02-15 09:40:45 +0000 UTC

I suspect Josh and Alex will have strong, negative (jaw-dropping) reaction to her remark about him being a toaster. Sure, it's a blunt way to get the attention of Picard and Riker, but it's far worse, in context, than - say - someone like Dr. Pulaski has EVER said on screen. That remark did in fact shock me, the first time I saw this episode. It obviously got the attention of the two it was intended for...............

Rhett Coates

2024-02-15 09:37:47 +0000 UTC

TA: that extended cut was so good, it was shown in movie theaters in limited release. It was .... magnificent, especially on a Big Screen, and got APPLAUSE at the end of the story as the credits began to roll.

Rhett Coates

2024-02-15 09:27:58 +0000 UTC

When I see anyone mentioning how a 'Trek episode relates to naval-related reality, I am reminded of a passage in one of the two "Making of Star Trek" books published in the late 60's / early 70's (I can't remember which one) where G Roddenberry was quoted saying something about the Enterprise's naval construction contract, and while it's not yet in 'Trek canon, that's what he thought of the letters painted on the ship's hull meant. I believe they based a lot of Starfleet's background, however loosely or accurately, on the USA's Coast Guard, somewhat of a "space navy" as it were.

Rhett Coates

2024-02-15 09:13:50 +0000 UTC

Objection your honours! It’s a thought-provoking courtroom drama, but exposes TNG’s American roots. US courts are theatrical and play to the gallery, whereas courts elsewhere are solemn and analytical. There’s magnificent writing cowering beneath this tawdry tribunal.

Smear Campaign

2024-02-14 20:49:22 +0000 UTC

When she filmed the scenes for her funeral and it was Data’s turn, Denise ad-libbed “oh and Data… it DID happen” after the bit we saw on screen. She thought no one noticed as nothing was said but unfortunately they removed it during editing.

Smear Campaign

2024-02-14 20:38:11 +0000 UTC

Lol yea I just realized this. Which means they watched it a day before the anniversary. They shoulda waited a day! Although, then we'd have to wait longer for the reaction...

Michael Mannisto

2024-02-14 20:16:46 +0000 UTC

I'm reminded of Pink Floyd..."And then you find 10 years have got behind you.." It just does not seem like it was 35 years ago.

Monty Crawford

2024-02-14 17:48:22 +0000 UTC

I brought this up myself. Could be, could be not. I figured if they did they kept it a secret. (I know, it's only a fictional show)

Monty Crawford

2024-02-14 17:44:43 +0000 UTC

That depends. If her vibrator was broken ...

Sam Langanke

2024-02-14 12:23:20 +0000 UTC

I mean hey each to their own head canon xD

DataDroid

2024-02-14 10:46:51 +0000 UTC

Hey, you never know, it could've never happened several more times before she died. 🤣

Nolan

2024-02-14 10:11:40 +0000 UTC

Since after the incident Tasha said to him "This never happened" I think it's highly unlikely they got back to it. It was a one-off because of both their intoxication

DataDroid

2024-02-14 05:55:09 +0000 UTC

Probably not. But my head cannon 8-ball says, Most likely. Lol

Shatner's Cigarette

2024-02-14 01:11:09 +0000 UTC

"The Measure of a Man" aired for the first time 35 years ago today — February 13, 1989.

Shatner's Cigarette

2024-02-14 01:08:07 +0000 UTC

I disagree because of both Stange New Worlds and Lower Decks (the first two episodes aren't the best judgment for the latter)

CM Waters

2024-02-13 23:24:39 +0000 UTC

Nah

Jovet

2024-02-13 22:07:29 +0000 UTC

When Picard presses Data for the reason he keeps a portrait of Tasha, Data answers " we were intimate". This raises the question, did Tasha have sex with Data other than their one encounter during her pseudo intoxication in The Naked Now?

Bradley Shafer

2024-02-13 21:02:04 +0000 UTC

A awesome episode coming off the heals of another. This will be a great Data episode that will answer a lot of questions and this will also feature Riker in a similar adversarial role that we saw in the previous episode with the Klingons. A solid Season 2 show for sure.

Mullinsky

2024-02-13 14:55:00 +0000 UTC

Jovet, thanks for explaining to me (on an earlier episode's Patreon takes) about the deciding line on what is a spoiler. That helped me to realise I had been careless beforehand.

Numinous2019

2024-02-13 10:18:39 +0000 UTC

This one is definitely in my top 10, despite its flaws. As I wrote in another comment here, this one has flaws but its spirit is elite level. It would be very hard for me to recommend changes to it at the risk of upsetting its balance. This is some of the best of TNG.

Jovet

2024-02-13 06:33:43 +0000 UTC

@Ca$hWednesday I agree. Definitely "his first time." Also consider that a regular human may have been disappointed or hurt by Tasha's "it never happened" comment, but Data cannot have those emotions. Lucky for him.

Jovet

2024-02-13 06:30:17 +0000 UTC

This is why I really enjoy these reactions. It's a great revisit of a treasured series for me, and the two men here have intriguing and sometimes unpredictable perspectives. They actually put effort and thought into what they say instead of just saying two sentences and "see you next video pls subscribe!" Edit: Wow! a 55 minute reaction video! :-O

Jovet

2024-02-13 06:27:50 +0000 UTC

Enterprise is grass. Everything after that is inedible.

Jovet

2024-02-13 06:16:40 +0000 UTC

Did they have any sort of relationship beyond that one time? Not sure. I always looked at it as that one experience was quite literally the most intimate human experience he had up to that point, and the whole point was that it meant something to him and it had a positive affect on him / his life journey. "You always remember your first". ...Or maybe they did continue to have a relationship after that and it was just between them two. Either way, I'm cool with it.

Ca$hWednesday

2024-02-13 04:45:40 +0000 UTC

I cannot see them "hating" it per se. But I can see where it might not strike them in the same way we view it. Odds are I'm wrong, though, and it will be a hit.

StonyD

2024-02-13 03:39:39 +0000 UTC

Yup. My biggest gripe with the episode

Evan Guthrie

2024-02-13 03:07:30 +0000 UTC

O’Brian

startrekiborg

2024-02-13 02:39:57 +0000 UTC

I agree. This subject would have already been settled before Starfleet would have aloud him to put on a uniform, let alone command others or take the con.

startrekiborg

2024-02-13 02:33:37 +0000 UTC

Congratulations!! You got your wish. During the discussion on The Schizoid Man you said you had wished they would have explored Data’s humanity. Well, little did you know, you were just a couple of days away from exactly that. This episode is on most series’ 10 best list. Not mine, but each to his own. I’ll be happy to tell you my top 4 when we get to them, but that’ll take a couple of years before we hit the first. FIREBALL RULES!!!*

startrekiborg

2024-02-13 02:26:11 +0000 UTC

I predict an appearance from Fireball…and often. 😃

startrekiborg

2024-02-13 02:19:25 +0000 UTC

Spoilers. I know you didn't state when that episode you named is coming, but this foreknowledge can impact their reaction to it when they get there. Edit: Thanks for editing your comment!

Jovet

2024-02-13 01:19:03 +0000 UTC

I do not see anything to speculate about. And yes, it is an answer... they were essentially drunk, things happened... Tasha said to him, more or less, let's keep our relationship professional. Is there evidence or even hints in any story that she reconsidered that position? No.

Jovet

2024-02-13 01:17:16 +0000 UTC

If you don’t like this one, I’m revoking my Patreon membership! JK, but seriously, this has to be one of the best episodes of any show, not just Trek, but all shows. Still to this day it’s making people think. We might even have our own version of a case like this in the not too distant future. Knowing what you know now about ChatGPT and the like, do you think the right decision was made in this episode?

Brian Moore

2024-02-13 01:07:53 +0000 UTC

That's actually hilarious. I was wondering that too! Sometimes their opinions are just.. not what most fans would think they'd end up being, which I find fascinating. I DID wonder in the back of my mind if for some reason they just end up hating this one. 😂 No real reason why, but I definitely thought of the possibility.

Lady Beyond The Wall

2024-02-13 00:50:08 +0000 UTC

And we'll still get another great courtroom episode in season 4!

Moonlander

2024-02-13 00:36:31 +0000 UTC

That’s hardly an answer. That’s the morning after. There’s a whole length of time between that moment and her death for someone to speculate about.

ScarlettMi

2024-02-13 00:28:34 +0000 UTC

The first truly great episode of Star Trek: TNG. There are definitely good episodes of S1 & S2, but this one is something special.

ScarlettMi

2024-02-13 00:26:54 +0000 UTC

I think there's a longer version of the episode on the blu ray ... like an hour, 12 minutes?

Don Smalley

2024-02-12 23:48:05 +0000 UTC

All I can say, is this along with Q who is one of the best episodes of the season.

Leighton Cressman

2024-02-12 23:45:29 +0000 UTC

Perhaps....but maybe she thought about it after that...I'm sure Data was...ah...never mind.

Monty Crawford

2024-02-12 22:47:20 +0000 UTC

"It never happened." – Tasha Yar to Data, the morning after. There's your answer.

Jovet

2024-02-12 21:50:39 +0000 UTC

Which should have played out upon Data's application to Starfleet.

Jovet

2024-02-12 21:49:06 +0000 UTC

The "You buying?" question actually brings up more complications. I thought we got rid of money!?

Jovet

2024-02-12 21:41:45 +0000 UTC

I've always figured that, since admirals weren't subject to regular appearance, the costumer(s) kept experimenting in the hunt for "that look." That look that the production staff could point to and say, "Yes! That's what the flag officers should look like!"

Jovet

2024-02-12 21:38:24 +0000 UTC

@Monty Crawford Correct, I agree. The reversion to fisticuffs every other story in TOS never struck me as depicting an evolved, intellectual humanity, either. Gene wasn't perfect (vision-wise or person-wise) but he still was no slouch. I mean, this story still got made, after all.

Jovet

2024-02-12 21:05:24 +0000 UTC

You revealed exactly which episode and your opinion of it. That's well into spoiler territory, and could influence their reaction to it when it comes. The best policy is to pretend it's 1988 for Josh and Alex, and future happenings are not known because they haven't aired yet. There is a huge difference between me writing "There are better episodes to come yet!" and "The episode S8E03 is widely considered amazeballs." Do you see what I mean?

Jovet

2024-02-12 20:57:25 +0000 UTC

I have at least one episode in mind for bawling, but we'll just have to see when we get there. There are multiple episodes I'd qualify as sad/moving stories. Maybe I'm just a big ol' softie.

Jovet

2024-02-12 20:52:55 +0000 UTC

Best episode out the of season one and season two run. The peak of S2. I will be shocked if this is not in either of your top five TNG list when you’re done with the series.

Shatner's Cigarette

2024-02-12 20:23:57 +0000 UTC

A very good observation, but I disagree with the nuance. The antagonist’s point of the episode is to call into question data’s official status in Starfleet as a being who is alive or a machine that is property - which is done brilliantly in what is considered one of the all-time great episodes of any Star Trek.

Shatner's Cigarette

2024-02-12 20:19:20 +0000 UTC

I think we all know what will make them ball, but that's yet to come. And, NO spoilers, TA.

Rhett Coates

2024-02-12 19:37:04 +0000 UTC

As much as I respected Mr Roddenberry....his ideas of a utopian future really didn't make much sense sometimes...like no need for lawyers in the future. There will ALWAYS be laws and lawyers.

Monty Crawford

2024-02-12 18:34:55 +0000 UTC

This is one of the better episodes of the entire series, in my opinion, not just of the season. I think it's where Picard begins to give one of his many great speeches. Well written and acted. I'm wondering how you thought about Data having to confess that he and Tasha were more than just friends. I've often wondered if they had a relationship past the one time they Phan Fahred in the episode "The Naked Now".

Monty Crawford

2024-02-12 18:20:41 +0000 UTC

Rank has its fashion privileges? ;p

StonyD

2024-02-12 17:59:23 +0000 UTC

You are free to have that opinion, and I am not trying to argue with you. But the context of the scene and the word she is using is to reference Data being alive and how that can be defined. Not whether he or anyone else has a "spiritual essence". She says they are dancing around the real reason of why they are there: "Does Data have a soul? I don't know that he has. I don't know that I have." referencing the debate of whether he is, by definition, alive, or whether by definition that term applies to any of them. And she concludes that the court is not able to answer that question, but is able to give Data the freedom to discover that for himself. In a different context, I could see your point. But in this one, I think it applies to the very point of the plot and scenes themselves. YMMV.

StonyD

2024-02-12 17:56:15 +0000 UTC

Since Data took a conscious decision to join Starfleet as an independent being, wouldn't he be able to appeal any decision made by a Starfleet judge? I mean to a Federation Court? This is not the point of the story I know, but it always seemed odd to me that a being who attended Starfleet Academy, graduated and made career choices would suddenly be considered 'property'.

Numinous2019

2024-02-12 17:22:27 +0000 UTC

"Many souls were lost at sea". While it can be a religious term, in this situation I feel like it was just meant as a synonym for life.

Ca$hWednesday

2024-02-12 16:42:59 +0000 UTC

I'm genuinely curious why there's so many variations of these things.

Ca$hWednesday

2024-02-12 16:40:13 +0000 UTC

One of the best. While s2 wasn’t outstanding and contains my most hated TNG episode, it also had a few amazing ones. And it continued to explore themes of “what makes us human?”

Crankygrandma

2024-02-12 16:27:59 +0000 UTC

Great analogy! The poker game scene also is used by Data himself to explain to Maddox and make him understand why how he plans to go about the procedure will fail: DATA: Take games of chance. I had read and absorbed every treatise and textbook on the subject, and felt myself well prepared for the experience. Yet, when I finally played poker, I discovered that the reality bore little resemblance to the rules. MADDOX: And the point being? DATA: That while I believe it is possible to download the information contained in the positronic brain, I do not think you have acquired the expertise necessary to preserve the essence of those experiences. There is an ineffable quality to memory which I do not believe can survive your procedure.

DataDroid

2024-02-12 16:27:38 +0000 UTC

The soul is by definition the spiritual essence (dating back to the etymology of the word). Louvois specifically talks about who does or doesn't have A soul, a spiritual essence beyond the material (Data's machine self). Just saying that I would have thought Star Trek would take a more Asimov-approach to intelligent robots and not a what-would-God-think resolution.

Kristina Weber

2024-02-12 16:13:37 +0000 UTC

Absolutely agree. It's an awesome scene for both Data and Picard

DataDroid

2024-02-12 16:13:18 +0000 UTC

I'm counting on another future episode for this Lol

DataDroid

2024-02-12 16:11:09 +0000 UTC

Correct. I watched it on BBC America a couple months ago and was shocked at the end edit. Especially irritating was losing the closing scene between Data and Riker. Not much there to see, I guess. It only defined their entire relationship. And we didn't even get end credits. Just straight into the next episode.

KatWithAttitude

2024-02-12 16:06:24 +0000 UTC

A real-world JAG. I don't know Starfleet regulations though.... Not to disagree. I think many set this episode a little TOO high on the pedestal, including myself. But, it doesn't lack for the reasons you state imo. If anything, the flaw is that an idea and discourse on this is crunched down to 48 minutes. This could easily have been a two-parter if they were doing those back in that season.

StonyD

2024-02-12 15:59:15 +0000 UTC

Yep. Michael Okuda confirmed in a Star Trek group some months back that the entire run of TNG you could go up into the scaffolding and look down, and see the original phase II set skeletons that the TMP/TNG sets had been built inside of.

Steven Johnson

2024-02-12 15:58:30 +0000 UTC

Quick Hot Take: Despite everything I've said in this comment section, part of me that watched Wrath of Khan with you feels that maybe this might not impact you the way it did the rest of us. I am CURIOUS to see if you lock in with this one like we do.

StonyD

2024-02-12 15:52:14 +0000 UTC

This is brilliant. I want it printed on a poster❤️

Rich Cirivilleri

2024-02-12 15:51:51 +0000 UTC

LOL! I wouldn't hold your breath on that one. I don't think it's that kind of show for them. I could be wrong.

StonyD

2024-02-12 15:51:03 +0000 UTC

I said this on an earlier video, but my take: TOS is a Texan Sirloin Steak, TNG is a Filet Mignon from NYC, DS9 is a 24oz Porterhouse, Voyager is a Grilled Salmon, Enterprise is fresh lobster, Picard S3 is BBQ Spare Ribs. Anything beyond that is Tofu. ;p

StonyD

2024-02-12 15:47:20 +0000 UTC

He was a child genius "wunderkind" like Wesley. How else could he have grasped Noonian Soong's work where others in Starfleet could not? ; )

StonyD

2024-02-12 15:42:50 +0000 UTC

And Riker had a wistful momentary grin remembering Tasha and realizing that had happened. Man, Riker is sooo subtly GOOD in this episode. I felt his pain throughout.

StonyD

2024-02-12 15:41:41 +0000 UTC

"they don't really demonize Bruce Maddox" Agreed! Great point! I've seen the deleted scenes for this episode, and there is a scene that makes Maddox feel more like a bully/villain than he appears at other times. I am glad they removed that as it didn't gel with the ending.

StonyD

2024-02-12 15:40:05 +0000 UTC

Disagree. References to a "soul" does not automatically equate to "religion", as the term "soul" is a vague flowery term used for many descriptors ("this jazz music has soul") and is in context equated to the term "alive".

StonyD

2024-02-12 15:30:48 +0000 UTC

Yeah, I took it they bonked back in the day, but then her duty required her to court martial him for the Stargazer as the prosecution, and she didn't hold back, which is what came between them as a possible couple. Of all the "old girlfriends" we saw on TNG for everyone, Phillipa Louvois is my favorite. Also, another "French name" with a different accent (southern-ish this time LOL)

StonyD

2024-02-12 15:27:11 +0000 UTC

"The case for postponing the hearing might not have worked, either, due to the fact that Maddox had Starfleet order Data's transfer in just 24 hours from the order being given. Thus, the rush." The JAG could have delayed that while the hearing was pending, it was not necessary for Maddox to start within 24 hours.

Phillip Grischa

2024-02-12 15:08:54 +0000 UTC

Oh there are definitely things to fear with regards to machine learning. The big one being, and we're already seeing this, that it will outpace human beings right out of having jobs. Society and technology have to keep pace or we're ultimately doomed to suffer a very long period pain. To Chtphr Rrr's overall point, AI has always been a concern, and in the 80s we had Robocop, Terminator, War Games... It was a big topic of discussion in the science fiction world, and a concern that was being raised in the culture. At the time, though, the bigger fear was still the struggle between West and East. The Cold War.

Steven Johnson

2024-02-12 14:47:58 +0000 UTC

I was careful to not reveal anything about the episode.

Mike Rogers

2024-02-12 14:42:10 +0000 UTC

Eh, we've been making general remarks of that nature since the beginning. Perceived audience quality of episodes is not a spoiler and, in fact, has been part of the discussion in nearly every reaction. If he had mentioned a character was returning or a plot detail or something, sure, but just saying "The finale for season 2 sucks" is literally just a general opinion, and one they might not even agree with. People have already told them repeatedly that Star Trek V is a dog, and they actually responded "That means we'll probably like it." I get the desire to want to caution against spoilers, and generally I agree, but not with something this broad and vague. There was a whole discussion centered around the poor quality of season 1, which allowed Josh and Alex to interact with their audience in a big way, and even helped some people to change their perspectives on how they felt about the season as a whole.

Steven Johnson

2024-02-12 14:37:58 +0000 UTC

Question: What did you think of Louvois' final thoughts on the case? Personally, I found it a little OOC for Star Trek to throw in the religious concept of a 'soul' as being the key point to determine Data's status as a life form. Maybe it was a function of the time this was made but I would have preferred a different take, particularly after Picard's eloquent speech.

Kristina Weber

2024-02-12 14:12:08 +0000 UTC

We don't know the details, but I have always taken it as a not so subtle "remember, you owe me one."

Jovet

2024-02-12 13:36:50 +0000 UTC

Don't fret. I, for one, really enjoy these chats with fellow fans and viewers of the series. I enjoy seeing everyone's viewpoints and comments, even if I don't always agree with them. This is fun!

Jovet

2024-02-12 13:35:42 +0000 UTC

She was a practicing attorney at the time, too.

Jovet

2024-02-12 13:25:55 +0000 UTC

Lawyers get a bad rap, some deservedly so, but I believe most people don't really understand how our (Western) legal system is supposed to work. Our legal system is, essentially, a tug of war. It's a belief that the righteous side will still triumph the majority of the time if both sides plead their cases to the best of their ability. That's the crucible spoken of in this story.

Jovet

2024-02-12 13:24:22 +0000 UTC

It has flaws but I can ignore them because the spirit of this episode is elite level.

Jovet

2024-02-12 13:20:42 +0000 UTC

The writer of the episode, Melinda M. Snodgrass, consulted Navy judge advocate generals for this episode and it shows.

Darin Wagner

2024-02-12 13:19:27 +0000 UTC

Roddenberry was more good than bad. He made the Star Trek universe what it was.

Jovet

2024-02-12 13:16:26 +0000 UTC

I've always appreciated that because good critical thinking expects examination from angles like that.

Jovet

2024-02-12 13:14:53 +0000 UTC

As much as I like this episode and how it plays out, you are correct. Data's personhood should already be well established. He's been in Starfleet for, what, 20 years already? People like Pulaski may not quite know how to relate or react to him, but his status as a person with rights should already be cemented. Guinan's talk about disposable people is on point: slavery is wrong. But it alone is not evidence that Data is a person or that he can be enslaved. The crux of the hearing really should be how Data IS different from the ship's computer. I think we can explore many ways that Data is different: Data is programmed to be sentient, Data is programmed to have free will and desires, Data is constructed to exhibit personhood. I never saw Maddox as slimy, but he does show why there would still be a need for lawyers. A bigger question is how anyone in the 24th century knows what a toaster is.

Jovet

2024-02-12 13:12:32 +0000 UTC

There are many things to fear in this world, artificial intelligence is not yet one of them.

Jovet

2024-02-12 13:03:59 +0000 UTC

That editing sounds dreadful. I'm sorry. You can't take out the poker game! Because reasons.

Jovet

2024-02-12 13:01:46 +0000 UTC

Wonderful, spot on comment!

Jovet

2024-02-12 12:59:36 +0000 UTC

From what I read, Gene didn't like the idea of the existence or need for lawyers in the future.

Jovet

2024-02-12 12:58:38 +0000 UTC

We'll have to wait until the 7th season to have a serious discussion along these lines. :D

Jovet

2024-02-12 12:57:15 +0000 UTC

No spoilers. Do not reveal the plots, characters, actors, or quality of future episodes, especially not specific episodes.

Jovet

2024-02-12 12:55:57 +0000 UTC

@Glenn Johnson Barnes Unfortunately, that alone isn't evidence that Data is a person. If he's not a person then he can't be enslaved. Exploring the reasons WHY Data is not the same as the ship's computer could have been explored more. (e.g. Data is sentient, Data has free will)

Jovet

2024-02-12 12:55:01 +0000 UTC

I wish there was a higher accolade we could give to comments than simply liking them!

Anthony Bernacchi

2024-02-12 12:54:59 +0000 UTC

I still think pique TNG is yet to come, despite this episode being very good.

Jovet

2024-02-12 12:51:19 +0000 UTC

It seems Gene almost nix'd this episode because he didn't like the idea of needing/having lawyers in the future.

Jovet

2024-02-12 12:50:43 +0000 UTC

(Of course, Data doesn't forget anything... but we know what he meant.) P.S. I'm anxious to see Josh and/or Alex bawling during TNG!! 👍

Jovet

2024-02-12 12:47:08 +0000 UTC

It's a remarkable episode, but I wouldn't put it THAT high. There is far better coming!

Jovet

2024-02-12 12:44:19 +0000 UTC

Guinan's argument has a big flaw, though. Maddox's whole claim is that Data is not a person. Such "disposable people" like Data would then not be people at all. You can't enslave a computer, it isn't alive and has no free will. I myself can't attest that Data is alive, but he is (programed to be) sentient and has free will.

Jovet

2024-02-12 12:42:51 +0000 UTC

Yes yes Yes! And with a Delicious side order of Pythias claw!

Rich Cirivilleri

2024-02-12 12:29:03 +0000 UTC

That makes sense. This episode was based on an old court case in which the US Navy tried to claim ownership of a self-aware 1981 Casio FX-81 calculator.

Regan

2024-02-12 12:21:51 +0000 UTC

Question: Captain Picard knows Captain Phillipa Louvois. Do you believe they had a romance, or are just friends? "Ain't love grand" hints at a prior romance, but it's open to interpretation.

Jovet

2024-02-12 11:40:02 +0000 UTC

Moar oopsie: In "Where Silence Has Lease," Dr. Pulaski states that Data's personnel file, which she has read, shows him as "alive." If that is true, then this whole story line becomes moot.

Jovet

2024-02-12 11:34:22 +0000 UTC

Moar trivia: If you like how this episode is written, consider it was written by an attorney and it was her first produced story for television. Her script came to TNG's producers by way of George R.R. Martin's agent, according to the special "making of" show on the S2 DVD.

Jovet

2024-02-12 11:24:06 +0000 UTC

Top 10 of the whole franchise. Not much more I can say.

Strife

2024-02-12 11:24:00 +0000 UTC

Riker's internal conflict in this episode is something a lawyer (like the writer) would understand very well, being assigned a case you don't personally believe in but having the solemn duty to make it the most convincing case you can.

James H

2024-02-12 11:23:00 +0000 UTC

Hot trivia: The appearance of Admiral Nakamura marks the 130th distinctive design of an admiral's uniform/rank insignia on TNG so far... /sarc

Jovet

2024-02-12 11:18:12 +0000 UTC

Now I can hardly wait to see the preview... :-)

Jovet

2024-02-12 11:15:14 +0000 UTC

Yup. And the swear-in hand bible sensors are the same too!

Jovet

2024-02-12 11:12:58 +0000 UTC

I want to say this is overrated, because I'm all for the underdog and not a follower of 'popular'. Buuuuuttttt... This is legit an amazing episode. As you guys have learned already, Star Trek does court room drama very well indeed, and this is by far one of the best examples (if not the best). Not only does the case here have a massive impact on TNG and Trek as a whole, but it's also a key moment for all the regulars involved, changing them, and shifting them forward into the characters we've all come to adore. I have absolutely no doubt, this will be a 'best yet' moment for one or both of you.

Andy Frankham-Allen

2024-02-12 08:44:18 +0000 UTC

Fun fact: the courtroom set is a redress of the battle bridge set, which also served as the bridge set for the first four Star Trek TOS films. The TNG sets were built out of the motion picture sets, themselves originally built for the aborted “Phase II” series in the 70s.

Adam Zey

2024-02-12 07:45:42 +0000 UTC

Agree with the Tasha scene, and it’s something I love about TNG. Even aspects from “bad episodes” or even unpopular characters or developments come back in better and well written ways. They don’t just sweep their history under the rug, even if it’s not popular with some people.

Glenn Johnson Barnes

2024-02-12 07:44:29 +0000 UTC

Duo*

Nolan

2024-02-12 07:29:38 +0000 UTC

This right here, was when I was galvanized into a Trekkie for life. All the parts that make great Trek have been in pretty much all the prvious episodes, but this one is when they assemble into the real good stuff. In the scene where Data and Picard are talking on the couch, the acting there... My god man... Patrick Stewart does nothing but because we have already learned a good amount about this character we can see his disappointment when Data hits him with the facts. Then, instead of being upset, or even angry like some people would be in that situation, he turns resolute, because it's the right thing to do. I would follow that Captian's moral compass anywhere.

Burrito Vampire

2024-02-12 07:10:07 +0000 UTC

122 comments in, I guess you don't need me to tell you, that despite "A Matter of Honor" bring a great episode, "The Measure of a Man" is widely considered the first Great episode of TNG. It's also something you guys have been asking for since season one: a court episode. I hope it delivers for you both, as it is the harbinger of all TNG that follows. And a damn good Picard speech to boot, showing what Stewart and Picard can really do. And oh yes, more direct continuity and, you guys also talk about wanting to see what the crew does in off hours, so now we have the poker game.

Nolan

2024-02-12 07:01:07 +0000 UTC

While it’s still a bit rough around the edges due to being so early in the series, this remains my favourite episode of the entire series. Of note: they released an extended cut on bluray, a full 13 minutes longer than the broadcast version.

Adam Zey

2024-02-12 06:54:44 +0000 UTC

Ah, you guys have reached what is in my opinion the first great "all time classic" of tng. Probably the best episode of star trek to this point since city on the edge of forever. This is star trek at its finest, and the best glimpse yet of what tng is to become. This is also one of the episodes that solidifies why Picard is my all time favorite captain. By far the best episode of S2.

Michael Mannisto

2024-02-12 06:30:39 +0000 UTC

Approximately 20 years since Data graduated the academy and got his commission... to this episode.

Jovet

2024-02-12 06:29:23 +0000 UTC

Captain Louvois looked genuinely shocked that Data landed a dead woman.

Jovet

2024-02-12 06:26:48 +0000 UTC

Yeah! He's a Kyle! LOL! (That's a "Man Seeking Woman" reference, which most people reading this probably won't know.)

Jovet

2024-02-12 06:25:33 +0000 UTC

Yes! That's what I've been writing here, too.

Jovet

2024-02-12 06:25:04 +0000 UTC

Yeah, how could "property" apply for and be granted entry into the academy, graduate and be given a commission, get promoted numerous times, etc. That's one of the quirks of this episode's story that doesn't make much sense.

Jovet

2024-02-12 06:21:36 +0000 UTC

You guys are now at one of the short list of episodes I've most wanted to see you react to. I think you're going to love it. The human element, for everyone (Picard, Data, Riker) is very pronounced and well-developed in this one. I will go along with the hype. There is not much I would change about this episode. Some of the legal stuff is over-dramatized, and we have YET ANOTHER former Picard flame (I think?) whom he knows from the court martial on his loss of the Stargazer. Perhaps a bit less of an unlikely coincidence given how thinly stretched JAG officers likely are in Starfleet, but it raises my eyebrows (Spock style) all the same. Some of the plot isn't very logical or soundly reasoned, but I will go out of character and forgive it. The existing case law defining Data as property is suspect in my mind, but then again we got away with last week with human genetic experimentation that is supposedly banned by the Federation. (Apparently it DOES simply ignore its own regulations when they become inconvenient [to the plot].) This case law takes place in our future and the crew's past, so one can only guess what it's supposed to state or prove exactly. People say this is a Data episode, and they're right. It's his career, his memories, his life on the line. Other people (including its writer) say this is a Picard episode. I think Riker gets forgotten, and the end scene between he and Data in the observation lounge or wherever makes that very poignant.

Jovet

2024-02-12 06:11:32 +0000 UTC

No no no. This is $300 Beef Wellington from the most expensive steakhouse in town.

Jovet

2024-02-12 06:10:29 +0000 UTC

Riker had more pressure. He had to argue what he didn't believe one bit.

Jovet

2024-02-12 06:09:21 +0000 UTC

No, it's Cmdr. Riker that steals the show. "And now a man will steal the show."

Jovet

2024-02-12 06:08:32 +0000 UTC

This is the most important Data episode.

Jovet

2024-02-12 06:07:39 +0000 UTC

Just the end of Data's life.

Jovet

2024-02-12 06:06:21 +0000 UTC

It's one of the better ones. I think it's pretty difficult to pick one best episode to rule them all.

Jovet

2024-02-12 06:06:08 +0000 UTC

Definitely been waiting for this one!

Jovet

2024-02-12 06:05:19 +0000 UTC

Episode 8&9 are a definite one-two punch. And up to this point the best written of the series by far

Scarpad’s Domain

2024-02-12 06:01:04 +0000 UTC

Not only is this the best episode of season 2 it’s in the top 10 TNG episodes. Picard’s closing remarks are one of my favorite speech’s in all of Trek. You guys love Brent Spiner, and this is a very good Brent Spiner/ Data episode. Can’t wait to see what you think of it.

Eric Bundy

2024-02-12 05:26:23 +0000 UTC

Absolutely agree

DataDroid

2024-02-12 05:15:26 +0000 UTC

Jean Luc Picard has entered the building. This episode kicks off what will become an ongoing thing with ol' Jean Luc. The gift of fiery rhetoric. Much as James Kirk destroyed computers with torrents of illogic on the regular, our man Picard becomes a person who will dispatch enemies with his stentorian oratory. Data's story and status, especially among his friends and crew-mates, gets pretty well solidified here. He is a conscious being who is aware of his existence and will fight to defend it. That little reference to special place Tasha held in his life spoke volumes and also made me miss her again for a moment. "We were...intimate." A Matter of Honor and this episode will give you a taste of what's to come. Don't get TOO excited yet. You still have a few clunkers to sit through. Mostly due to a behind the scenes three-way power struggle between the creative staff, the executives and Roddenberry's lawyer, who fancied himself some sort of part-time media mogul. You will be astounded how many of your wishes are gonna come true beginning with Season 3. Two huge stumbling blocks are effectively removed - Gene Roddenberry and Maurice Hurley. Hurley, as head writer, was responsible for many of the poorly received aspects of Season 2 (as well as being the reason Gates McFadden left).

StealthMomo

2024-02-12 05:03:08 +0000 UTC

I also like the little detail that Riker had to enter an access code to call up Data's schematics, it does make sense that not anyone can look those up ... and there he finds the information about where Data's off-button is.

DataDroid

2024-02-12 04:58:49 +0000 UTC

One of the best scenes in the episode is when Picard tries to reason with Data that it's in Starfleet's best interest that he undergoes the procedure and Data shatters the whole attempt with one pointed question. I love the scene. How Picard looks almost disgusted with himself that he even thought about trying to change his mind into doing this.

DataDroid

2024-02-12 04:51:39 +0000 UTC

Patrick Stewart mentioned recently that the slavery episode wasn't in the original script. Between scenes, he was talking with Whoopi Goldberg and she mentioned the possibility of this angle, and it made it into the episode. This is the episode people (like me!) Have been waiting for you to get to. Loud as a Whisper, okay, Unnatural Selection, fine, but what about Measure of a Man?? Definitely the best episode of the series up to this point.

Ian Westcott

2024-02-12 04:51:33 +0000 UTC

Who would have thought we'd hear someone saying to Picard he was a pompous ass? xD That still comes so unexpected, Luvois and him have a very intersting relationship, still haven't figured out what that is xD

DataDroid

2024-02-12 04:49:15 +0000 UTC

I love this episode. The question of Data's status comes up a little late, or rather has already been determined when he had been accepted into Starfleet Academy, but I think it's okay to say we want a judge to confirm or deny that. Picard is awesome to have at your side during such a time to defend you. Everyone needs someone like him in their life. I like it a lot.

DataDroid

2024-02-12 04:47:54 +0000 UTC

VERY unpopular opinion, but this episode just isn't very compelling to me. Data's status as an independent life form was affirmed when they admitted him to Starfleet, and that should have been the end of it. They ignore that, and instead make some fairly convincing arguments to the contrary. With how advanced computers are in the 24th century, Data really is just a few steps above the Enterprise computer, and sentience is very subjective. The fact that Maddox is portrayed as slimy doesn't make his arguments less valid. The final argument of "you can't prove he's NOT sentient" feels limp.

Evan Guthrie

2024-02-12 04:42:07 +0000 UTC

I wonder if people will look at this episode differently with the emerging fears of AI taking over the world. Riker playing the bad guy was silly but perhaps very effective. It would have made more sense to have Data as never being in complete command over humans as computers are just 1s and 0s.

Chtphr Rrr

2024-02-12 04:39:24 +0000 UTC

All those scenes were relevant, but the cut scenes sort of give closure to Maddox's story and to the Picard / Philippa relationship, and also resolves Riker's bad feelings about the trial. It takes away some of the "human" story.

Joe Concepts

2024-02-12 04:24:20 +0000 UTC

She was right. Data is the catalyst to the story, but Patrick Stewart's delivery of Picard's lines are so masterfully done as only a true Shakespearean actor could do. Well done, Sir Patrick!

Collin Freeman

2024-02-12 03:42:11 +0000 UTC

Fair to say this episode is up there, one of the best in the first two seasons, probably one of the best in all of TNG. This is classic Star Trek through and through, recalling episodes such as Court Martial and "What Are Little Girls Made Of?" When it comes to questions of what make someone human, alive, a being. Also shout out to "character continuity" with the mini Tasha hologram. That always gives me a little lump in the throat. Either side, if you were in the court room, what would you have done?

Steven Johnson

2024-02-12 03:41:30 +0000 UTC

Eh, the Poker scene is thematically relevant to the trial, though.

Steven Johnson

2024-02-12 03:39:57 +0000 UTC

For my view this ep. really brought home the idea of "seek out new life" as a concept and got quite a twist through the ringer and makes the viewer challenge their concepts of the definition of life, myself I am in tune with the native american belief that everything is alive we just don't tend to listen with good enough ears to hear. This is by far one of the most deeply philosophical battles in the history of all Star Trek.

Thicketdweller

2024-02-12 03:29:55 +0000 UTC

Don't get me wrong: those are all great scenes, but if I had to cut things down, those would be the scenes to cut.

Jeff Cornell

2024-02-12 03:02:50 +0000 UTC

Really? If I had to cut down this episode, I'd take out the poker game, Data's farewell party, and Riker looking at the schematics before I even considered touching the ending.

Jeff Cornell

2024-02-12 03:01:40 +0000 UTC

Me too, Stony. Very touching scene

James Bottas

2024-02-12 02:56:14 +0000 UTC

The first great Guinan scene, I'd say. I've never been a Whoopi Goldberg fan, but I do like her as Guinan.

Joe Concepts

2024-02-12 02:54:24 +0000 UTC

Re-runs of this episode on BBC America are horribly edited! The episode literally ends when Data formally refuses the procedure. No scene of Maddox saying something nice about Data, no Picard dinner invitation... and worse, that great Riker/Data scene isn't shown at all. Cut to credits!

Joe Concepts

2024-02-12 02:52:42 +0000 UTC

That is always the one glaring thing with this. Someone tries to challenge something like this, and they're forced to do it immediately, exactly where they are, and they have no recourse. Even in a military-type setting, would it be reasonable to expect Riker to not have some bias?

Joe Concepts

2024-02-12 02:50:23 +0000 UTC

And even better; Riker wins at poker by bluffing that he has a stronger hand than he does, and he basically does the same thing in court. The best argument he can make is to show that Data is a machine, distracting from the real question of whether Data is a person.

Jeff Cornell

2024-02-12 02:44:15 +0000 UTC

Considered one of the best TNG episodes. Melinda Snodgrass was working in a lawyer’s office when she came up with the idea of writing a ST trial show. For my money, this would have been better if Pulaski had been the prosecutor instead of Riker. She already had the abrasive relationship with Data, and considered him a machine more than a person. It would have been a nice growth moment for her character to almost win this case, and realize how wrong she was about him, only to have him forgive her in the end. That would have hit really hard.

tyranusfan

2024-02-12 02:06:29 +0000 UTC

I like the parallel between the poker game in the opening scene and the courtroom drama later. Data's machine nature allows Riker to beat him at poker, and later Riker is forced to use Data's nature against him in court, with much higher stakes on the line.

Jeff Cornell

2024-02-12 02:00:56 +0000 UTC

Well, it did come up before. Maddox objected to his admission to the academy on the basis that he wasn't sentient. That point of view just didn't get much political traction until he could sell them on the value of learning to build more Datas. Presumably his original objection had been voted down but Data's legal status was never explicitly confirmed, just implied.

Jeff Cornell

2024-02-12 01:47:16 +0000 UTC

“The Measure of a Man” Or “"The Adventures of the Brave Little Toaster” Pulaski is WASTED in this episode, BTW. If ever there was a moment to show that Kate had warmed up to him, or started to recognize his potential, this would be it. However, Guinan’s “Disposable People” speech more than makes up for it.

Adam Reid

2024-02-12 01:24:27 +0000 UTC

Welcome to a higher level of TNG, boys! Lots more of this to come!...in future seasons.

Miguel A. Moreta

2024-02-12 01:20:23 +0000 UTC

Da Da

Prof Moff

2024-02-12 01:13:34 +0000 UTC

As much as I love "A Matter of Honor," "The Measure of a Man" is as far superior to it as "A Matter of Honor" is to "The Child."

Anthony Bernacchi

2024-02-12 01:04:23 +0000 UTC

Humans age more slowly in the 24th century. Picard is 60 in this episode, whereas Patrick Stewart was 48.

Anthony Bernacchi

2024-02-12 01:01:22 +0000 UTC

This episode is a great example for a somewhat contrived setup being easily justifiable due to the pay-off it delivers. In a lesser episode you would nitpick the outlandish legal system of the federation to death, but here you don't really care because everything else works so great. Also, this is the only Star Trek episode, to my knowledge, that ever received a real extended cut - more than two decades later. It's included with the blu-ray release and worth watching if you haven't done so already.

Tim b

2024-02-12 00:59:01 +0000 UTC

Certainly my absolute favourite episode. I've watched it over the years at least a dozen times. Picard's speech about the crucible burning away everything until the pure product of the truth is all that's left (or something like that) still hits me hard. And of course, Data's reply to Riker at the end is very touching.

Glenner7

2024-02-12 00:54:18 +0000 UTC

The best use of Guinan..and her line about generations of “disposable people” still gives me the chills.

Glenn Johnson Barnes

2024-02-12 00:53:20 +0000 UTC

Writer Melinda Snodgrass had to convince Gene Roddenberry to produce this episode, which obviously she did. His view was “in the future” Data would gladly agree to be dismantled for the “greater good”…which is kind of a scary interpretation of his “perfect future”. One of my top 3 episodes of TNG, and top 10 of every Trek series period.

Glenn Johnson Barnes

2024-02-12 00:51:49 +0000 UTC

I think this is the first truly amazing episode. Peak Lawyer Picard.

Neill Shaughness

2024-02-12 00:44:37 +0000 UTC

If you don't like this episode, maybe you should just stop watching. Or maybe I should stop watching your reactions. This could have easily been in a later season and fit right in. It may have actually had more impact in a later season due to the further character development that happens throughout the show's run.

Gary A. Neilson

2024-02-12 00:40:29 +0000 UTC

A stellar episode, not just of Trek, but of television in general, with dialog, performances, world-building, and character development all coming together at their best. My question to you guys: do you find the courtroom drama to be an effective means of storytelling, in Trek and elsewhere?

Patrick47

2024-02-12 00:14:32 +0000 UTC

I think this episode is the turning point for TNG where it started to become worthy in its own right. Where open but skeptical fans began to see it was something special. Not to say that season still still does not have iffy episodes to come (and I will go on record right now, saying the second season finale is the worst episode of the whole series) but it is clear this show was blossoming. So many stand out moments in this episode but the scene for the ages is Picard and Guinan''s discussion of "disposable creatures". If you end up liking this episode. Remember, on the blu ray, there is an extended version of it.

Mike Rogers

2024-02-12 00:13:58 +0000 UTC

Finally a reason to watch Season 2! (Just kidding.) Seriously though to me this episode highlights what Star Trek is about: open-mindedness, diversity and empathy. Picard knocks it out of the park with his speech and I enjoy the moment where Data comforts Riker at the end also. I hope you guys like the episode too.

Ryan Caulfield

2024-02-12 00:13:49 +0000 UTC

The first truly great episode, in my opinion. Beautifully written and acted. I love this line: “Your Honor, Starfleet was founded to seek out new life; well, there it sits!”

Daniel Calcagno

2024-02-12 00:07:32 +0000 UTC

This episode is on a lot of top 10 lists in retrospect, but I'm really curious to see how this lands with you both on first viewing. While the writing and leads get a lot of praise, when it aired what impressed me most was Whoopi Goldberg's performance.

badvertised

2024-02-12 00:05:47 +0000 UTC

And now we get to the first truly great TNG episode. So many characters are used to their full potential here. Riker, doing his job because he knows the consequences of not doing it. Picard getting the chance to be Picard. Data being Data. Even Guinan is used perfectly.

Nerd's Gold

2024-02-12 00:03:24 +0000 UTC

You've already seen some good episodes, but this is the real deal, the first time we see Picard firing on all cylinders, the first glimpse into peak TNG. Killer script and killer acting. Think back to season one and notice how much the cast have settled into their roles already.

Yorin

2024-02-12 00:02:17 +0000 UTC

Law and Order: The Next Generation

Silk

2024-02-11 23:56:00 +0000 UTC

I feel science fiction is at its best when (as here) it deals with the question of what it means to be human. Maddox gives us the all-at-once change of heart that we didn’t really see with Pulaski.

James H

2024-02-11 23:47:36 +0000 UTC

Finally, TA, do you believe that Picard's closing statement to Phllipa: "You wanted a chance to make law; well, here it is. Make it a good one." ..... wasn't just for her, but for everyone else working on TNG and the spinoffs that followed, eh? Hmmm.............

Rhett Coates

2024-02-11 23:42:31 +0000 UTC

You said last week's ep is your fav of TNG. Well that lasted a week as I predict this one takes the top spot. I will even go on a limb and say you may think this is the best of all Trek so far. It is a perfect episode of pure Trek in my opinion. I will say one negative thing. I truly wish this was a season ending eps. Season 2 has an underlying theme of "is Data alive or what is "it"?" Many episodes have some little or main point that touches it. But it is because the ep is so good I say I wish it ended season 2.

Prof Moff

2024-02-11 23:40:02 +0000 UTC

It felt like Riker's very soul was damaged by what had transpired, and even after that, Data himself, in that last scene, offered Riker a tremendous gift that appeared to have happened for everyone else but him - up until that moment: Redemption.

Rhett Coates

2024-02-11 23:38:02 +0000 UTC

Wow, I didn't think an hour would make me late to the party, but I am! 😂 This is probably too late to be read, but one I thing I love about this episode that maybe hasn't already been said 100x is that they don't really demonize Bruce Maddox in this one or make him feel like a huge villain. It feels like he is genuine in his initial beliefs, learns throughout the episode and ends with Data telling him he would love to work with him in the future after he learns more. I just think that's great. It'd be really easy to turn him into a mustache twirling evil dude coming to take Data away, but they didn't go that route and I appreciate it.

Lady Beyond The Wall

2024-02-11 23:35:15 +0000 UTC

Yes, even the most seemingly uncaring people can also have their redemption.

Rhett Coates

2024-02-11 23:32:42 +0000 UTC

Absolutely! A seriously dramatic court room story, a call back to TOS's Daystrom, TNG's beloved Tasha Yar, and the springboard for a LOT more to come in TNG and every other 'Trek story to follow...............

Rhett Coates

2024-02-11 23:30:26 +0000 UTC

There's not much I can add that others haven't already brought up. All I'll say is this is Absolute Cinema (or television to be more accurate I suppose). When I think of Star Trek at its very best this is an episode that always comes to mind.

Skullman8942

2024-02-11 23:25:06 +0000 UTC

The final scene with Data and Riker hit me like a ton of bricks the first time I ever watched it. "That action injured you, and saved me. I will not forget it." The first of only two or three times Star Trek has made me choke up.

StonyD

2024-02-11 23:23:54 +0000 UTC

If we used the actor's real age, he'd have been about 5 years old. LOL

David Brown

2024-02-11 23:23:52 +0000 UTC

The case for postponing the hearing might not have worked, either, due to the fact that Maddox had Starfleet order Data's transfer in just 24 hours from the order being given. Thus, the rush.

Rhett Coates

2024-02-11 23:23:47 +0000 UTC

I think this episode is a bit overrated, I'm not saying it's bad, it's good but half the fandom acts like it's the best episode of TNG and maybe even the entire franchise and I don't agree with that. The discussion wether Data is alive or just a machine is a good one and I like what the episode ultimately says about what it means to be a person, I also like callbacks and the Tasha cameo but I deduct points because it throws logic out of the window to get to the hearing and involve the main cast. Data gets no proper counsel for example, Picard is not qualified and the "We're short on staff" excuse doesn't work, in that case have the hearing later, it's not like there was any urgency, they could have waited weeks or even months. In universe there was no need to have the hearing right then and there, it happened the way it did for real world reasons only.

Phillip Grischa

2024-02-11 23:19:26 +0000 UTC

Melinda Snodgrass wrote an epic storyline that, combined with the "crucible" of a court drama so perfectly acted out with the passion of the actors on those sets, offered a new level in Star Trek storytelling. "The Measure of a Man" didn't just put Data on trial: IT PUT US ALL on trial. I sincerely hope you both had your seat belts on tight, and that - before it started - you had your proverbial bags of popcorn. The incredibly dramatic court room scene was the launching pad for "the rest of the [Star Trek] story," as the late radio personality Paul Harvey might have said. The pivotal point came just before, in Ten-Forward, when Picard was talking with Guinan - and we, the viewers, were inspired (one would hope), or challenged as it were, to confront our own inner ideals and vision of how we might have reacted to what was happening to Data - our fellow crewman, as it were. Just who IN REAL LIFE owns another? Why? To do the so-called "dirty work" Guinan referred to? Or, more profoundly, WHAT FOR? To be able to have "the good life" at the expense of those who are "owned" by others? If so, in either case, how does any man .... measure up? Josh and Alex: THIS is where TNG's [rocket] launched with full thrusters. THIS is where it all turned straight up, and at warp speed. I cannot wait to witness your reactions, both outside and within your minds and souls, as the rest of Star Trek unfolds each week for both of you. There's a LOT more future DRAMA to this saga [in TNG and all the 'Trek series' that follow], and now we're out of the starting gate with a quantum leap. Guys? As amazingly good as this episode was, and without any spoilers, I can now reveal that THE BEST IS STILL YET TO COME. Get ready - with wonderful anticipation. You're one of us now. True TREKKIES. Welcome to the family!

Rhett Coates

2024-02-11 23:16:39 +0000 UTC

Well here we come to it. One of the top 10 episodes of the entire franchise, including TOS. It doesn’t get any better than this folks. This is real science fiction. This is how it should be, how the JJ trek can’t even comprehend to be. Compared to this, JJTrek is gas station frozen burgers while this is $65 prime rib from the most expensive steakhouse in town.

Rich Cirivilleri

2024-02-11 23:10:15 +0000 UTC

"Well THERE! IT! SITS!" Ladies and Gentlemen of the TARGET AUDIENCE....Jean-Luc Picard has arrived!

StonyD

2024-02-11 23:09:35 +0000 UTC

And thus, we get the episode that may challenge the last one for a top spot. All of the court, none of the bell ringing from the one Q had in the pilot. Do you feel that this episode helped to answer any questions that were had about Data's place that you may have had from "The Schizoid Man"?

CM Waters

2024-02-11 23:07:21 +0000 UTC

Probably the best episode of the second season and easily one of the strongest of the entire series. I like the call-back to Tasha Yar, it makes my heart cry every time. By the way, the courtroom is the Enterprise's combat bridge, with a few modifications.

AnnoHolic ACC

2024-02-11 23:06:57 +0000 UTC

Me, too. I remember seeing the preview for this episode and groaning in the way it was depicted, but after I had watched it, I was blown away.

Collin Freeman

2024-02-11 23:04:05 +0000 UTC

Precisely. The fact he was even allowed to enter Starfleet as a regular officer would have required him to be considered sentient.

Collin Freeman

2024-02-11 23:02:54 +0000 UTC

2 awesome episodes back-to-back have you like..WHAT!!?? Writer Snodgrass commented, "Everyone seems to view the episode as a Data script, but it's really a Picard script. Data is the catalyst, but the stress is all on Picard."

Badger

2024-02-11 23:02:40 +0000 UTC

Totally agree with all you said.

Collin Freeman

2024-02-11 23:02:06 +0000 UTC

😂

Just another Red Shirt

2024-02-11 23:01:06 +0000 UTC

I agree with your assessment of how Alex and Josh will feel.

Collin Freeman

2024-02-11 23:00:42 +0000 UTC

One of the things so great about this episode, like all great Star Trek episodes, is the timelessness of it. Look at how society is struggling with the growth of AI today. The questions Picard raises in the hearing are just as relevant as we will probably have to face in the years to come.

Collin Freeman

2024-02-11 22:59:50 +0000 UTC

All-time classic episode many put in their Top 3 episodes of all time lists. This can only mean one thing Alex and Josh will feel extremely indifferent about it

Elway Simpson

2024-02-11 22:59:36 +0000 UTC

"Flowers! Is there a John Luck Pickerd here?"

Tristan Rose

2024-02-11 22:59:05 +0000 UTC

Yea! We're going back to court! Many consider this episode to be the best of all TNG, and I would not disagree. It is definitely in my top 3. Although Data is the subject of this story, it is Patrick Stewart as Picard who really steals the show. Picard: You're talking about slavery. Pause. Guinan: Oh, I think that's a little harsh. and Picard: Starfleet was founded to seek out new life; well, there it sits!

Collin Freeman

2024-02-11 22:56:52 +0000 UTC

This is probably the first TNG episode that most trekkies rate as one of the best of all time across all of TNG and often all of Trek. I suspect you guys will love it. It's classic Trek doing what it does best; using science fiction and metaphor to explore real world ideas and issues.

Tristan Rose

2024-02-11 22:54:04 +0000 UTC

Talk to text, thanks for looking out.

Just another Red Shirt

2024-02-11 22:50:49 +0000 UTC

I love this episode. It’s in my top 5 of the season. It’s successful on all fronts. It’s considered one of the top Trek episodes of all time, not just TNG.

Paul Rymer

2024-02-11 22:50:14 +0000 UTC

Jean-Luc Picard*

Matt F

2024-02-11 22:48:20 +0000 UTC

Ok, now I'm sure you guys will love this Data Ep. Probably one of the best about his character so far....is he a new New Life form? YES.....another starfleet guy you will not like. Well, maybe till the End! That's it!

Duane Chancey

2024-02-11 22:47:34 +0000 UTC

My prediction: you’re both going to love it, but one of you is going to say you liked Matter of Honor a little bit more. This is 6th on IMDB. Rewatching these early episodes with you, I had forgotten how uncertain the writers were about how to write Picard. This is the Picard you spend seasons 3 through 7 with. THERE IT SITS! Is the first iconic moment of the series. The kind of “if you know you know” line Trek fans quip at each other.

John M.

2024-02-11 22:46:17 +0000 UTC

One of the most iconic Trek episodes of all time (in any of the series). The episode is still referenced to this day, by everyone from lawyers to academics and beyond.

Matt F

2024-02-11 22:45:52 +0000 UTC

We're going to court!

Elizabeth N

2024-02-11 22:44:27 +0000 UTC

Best episode of season 2... one of the best episodes of the whole franchise. Though the court procedure has changed a lot since our actual modern US legal system. The YouTube channel Legal Eagle did an analysis of the procedure compared to actual US law and its a mess!

Alexander McKechnie

2024-02-11 22:33:10 +0000 UTC

Many academic papers have compared this episode to City on the Edge of Forever for being a top quality early episode in a series . Do you think the comparison is fair and which one do you think was better?

Jonathan

2024-02-11 22:31:40 +0000 UTC

If you don't love love this episode, it's not the end of the world ☺️

SinocTheHodgeheg

2024-02-11 22:26:11 +0000 UTC

You both will enjoy this episode one of the best of all tng let alone season 2

Troy Massey

2024-02-11 22:24:33 +0000 UTC

This, this right here is Star Trek at its best. Data’s sentience and ability to make his own choices on trial, Guinan and Picard in Ten Forward about disposable people, River being forced to take the opposite stance and stand against his friend and shipmate, and Picard’s impassioned speech. When we talk about Star Trek at its best, this is it right here.

Gregory

2024-02-11 22:23:05 +0000 UTC

This is the court room episode you've been waiting for. All kidding aside, this is Star Trek at its finest. Some consider this to be the best TNG episode there is, for some even the best of the franchise. I don't know a single Trek fan that doesn't have this episode in their top 10. You wanted court room, inner workings of Star Fleet, Data, Picard AND Riker shining... this has it all. Great Guinan moments too.

Andreas Schmitt

2024-02-11 22:23:03 +0000 UTC

'The Measure of a Man' is considered by the fandom to be one of the best episodes of Next Generation; if not the entirety of Trek. I think I speak for most of the Patrons when I say this is the first tentpole episode that we were all looking forward to hearing your thoughts on. I think this one will check a lot of boxes for you.

Ca$hWednesday

2024-02-11 22:20:51 +0000 UTC

The actor playing Maddox is far too young. How old was he when he objected to Data joining Starfleet?

Jon1701

2024-02-11 22:19:52 +0000 UTC

It always bugged me that the question of Data’s sentience had never come up in Starfleet before. How many years has Data served? He’s risen to the rank of Lieutenant Commander!

Jon1701

2024-02-11 22:19:09 +0000 UTC

What a great callback to Data/Tasha on The Naked Now! And it played off well in the trial showing that Tasha was indeed special to Data.

TalynStarburst

2024-02-11 22:18:56 +0000 UTC

A truly great episode. The scene where they ask Data why he had the holo-image of Tasha even though it served no function to an android is further reminder that data is not just a machine.

THE LORE!!!

2024-02-11 22:18:40 +0000 UTC

I know there will be plenty of comments saying how great this episode is in generell and how the whole hearing has some meaningfull deepness to it and rightfully so. So I wanted to be the one pointing out how messy of a situation that had to be for poor commander Riker. To act against his friend in order to save him has always been the thing that stuck with me the most when thinking ab this episode. It's great to see that he finally gets much ore screentime overall. Looking forward for your reaction and I'm pretty shure it will end up on the seasons top 5 list.

Sebastian_Frodo

2024-02-11 22:18:35 +0000 UTC

When this aired I was already enjoying Next Generation, but for me this was when the show really stepped out of TOS's shadow and made its own mark. The final speech in Data's defense solidified me as a Picard fan.

Moonlander

2024-02-11 22:17:08 +0000 UTC

Matter of Honor and then this is a really spoiled dou of episode greatness. Plus Picard shines so well in courtroom episodes

Talon Karrde

2024-02-11 22:14:39 +0000 UTC

When you thought A Matter of Honor was good, you get this absolute gem. "Starfleet was founded to seek out new life; well, there it sits!" - the lines in this episode hit harder than a Klingon's punch.

snthd

2024-02-11 22:13:13 +0000 UTC

Measure of a Man is what I consider to be one of the greatest Star Trek episodes period. There are scenes in it I revisit quite often. Forget space battles and alien species, distilled to its core, this episode is what Star Trek is all about.

Linda Thackeray

2024-02-11 22:13:09 +0000 UTC

I predict that this will be in your top 3 for best episodes of the season. It's a thought-provoking story with great performances by Stewart, Spiner, and Frakes. A true Trek classic.

Cameron Thacker

2024-02-11 22:12:55 +0000 UTC

True enough. Haha. I’ve been planning to make this exact comment since they hearted my original comment where I said “don’t you worry.”

Ragnarok

2024-02-11 22:11:27 +0000 UTC

The Measure of a Series. You've hit one of the not only best in season but best in show episodes, one that is still talked about to this day. Starfleet's ideals are put to the test right in their own backyard, I do love this episode but question why they can even consider Data property if he's been working independently for them for years.

JD Nevesytrof

2024-02-11 22:11:22 +0000 UTC

I think when they said that pretty much all of us thought of this episode.

KatWithAttitude

2024-02-11 22:10:22 +0000 UTC

I have been looking forward to what you both thought of this one. Measure of a man was considered one of the best episodes of season 2. I think Brent Spiner is great. Along with what will be a continuation of the many great captain speeches by Picard.

Glenn Zigli

2024-02-11 22:09:54 +0000 UTC

This episode has a callback to TOS. The Daystrom Technological Institute is mentioned when Maddox is sworn in. We are told he is the Associate Chair of Robotics there. Perhaps you remember Dr. Richard Daystrom from the TOS Season 2 episode “The Ultimate Computer”, the one where Kirk convinced the M5 computer it was guilty of murder after it intentionally destroys a starship and crew during a wargame exercise intended to test that computer. Daystrom suffered a severe mental breakdown at the end but it apparently didn't damage his legacy since the Institute and other facilities are named after him.

KatWithAttitude

2024-02-11 22:09:41 +0000 UTC

In my opinion this is the first all time truly great episode of the show. I have it ranked as “Best of the Best”. I also have “A Matter of Honor” with the same rank but I put this one a little above it because of the serious questions it raises and the performances. Almost every ranking of TNG episodes I have seen has this one rated near the top. IMDb, for instance, has it at #6. You haven't seen any of the ones ranked ahead of it there yet. Great episode for Data, Picard, and Riker, and a wonderful scene between Picard and Guinan. Touching solo scene for Frakes when Riker is studying Data's schematics. He finds what he's looking for and looks pleased, and then he quickly sobers up when he realizes what that could mean for his friend.

KatWithAttitude

2024-02-11 22:09:22 +0000 UTC

Hahaaa. Well, boys, in season 1 you said you wanted, NEEDED a courtroom episode. I said in the comments “Not to worry.” Do you feel I was right? Do you feel fulfilled?

Ragnarok

2024-02-11 22:08:26 +0000 UTC

The first of many timeless Jean-Luc Picard speeches. Great stuff !

Just another Red Shirt

2024-02-11 22:08:05 +0000 UTC

From a US Navy perspective, this episode is very accurate.

Darin Wagner

2024-02-11 22:08:04 +0000 UTC

PATRON TAKES - Star Trek TNG - Season 2 Episode 9

Comments

FYI – if you click the "three dots" next to your comment, you can edit it!

sorry - cat stepped on the keyboard and hit send too soon - one of the best episodes of anything ever! at least for me - i'm super excited i just joined LOVE your work - and you are finally seeing Ryker get some good scenes - "There it sits!"

i see several commenters agree with me - +one

We’re talking about a landmark case that changes the definition of life, not a short changed baby sitter on Judge Judy.

On TV? Sure. Some filmed, very public court cases? Yes sometimes. But the VAST majority of US court cases? They're just "solemn and analytical".

🙄

@Rhett Coates Not buying that one. Pun intended. "Credits" would still be money. I suspect we will have to wait a while to have a proper, non-spoilery discussion about this.

It's definitely ONE of the episodes we have been waiting for TA to get to. There are many more, and there is another (no spoilers) one which I, for one, am almost holding my breath for them to see...........

TA: that extended cut was so good, it was shown in movie theaters in limited release. It was .... magnificent, especially on a Big Screen, and got APPLAUSE at the end of the story as the credits began to roll.

Objection your honours! It’s a thought-provoking courtroom drama, but exposes TNG’s American roots. US courts are theatrical and play to the gallery, whereas courts elsewhere are solemn and analytical. There’s magnificent writing cowering beneath this tawdry tribunal.

When she filmed the scenes for her funeral and it was Data’s turn, Denise ad-libbed “oh and Data… it DID happen” after the bit we saw on screen. She thought no one noticed as nothing was said but unfortunately they removed it during editing.

Lol yea I just realized this. Which means they watched it a day before the anniversary. They shoulda waited a day! Although, then we'd have to wait longer for the reaction...

I'm reminded of Pink Floyd..."And then you find 10 years have got behind you.." It just does not seem like it was 35 years ago.

I brought this up myself. Could be, could be not. I figured if they did they kept it a secret. (I know, it's only a fictional show)

That depends. If her vibrator was broken ...

I mean hey each to their own head canon xD

Hey, you never know, it could've never happened several more times before she died. 🤣

Since after the incident Tasha said to him "This never happened" I think it's highly unlikely they got back to it. It was a one-off because of both their intoxication

Probably not. But my head cannon 8-ball says, Most likely. Lol

"The Measure of a Man" aired for the first time 35 years ago today — February 13, 1989.

I disagree because of both Stange New Worlds and Lower Decks (the first two episodes aren't the best judgment for the latter)

Nah

When Picard presses Data for the reason he keeps a portrait of Tasha, Data answers " we were intimate". This raises the question, did Tasha have sex with Data other than their one encounter during her pseudo intoxication in The Naked Now?

A awesome episode coming off the heals of another. This will be a great Data episode that will answer a lot of questions and this will also feature Riker in a similar adversarial role that we saw in the previous episode with the Klingons. A solid Season 2 show for sure.

Jovet, thanks for explaining to me (on an earlier episode's Patreon takes) about the deciding line on what is a spoiler. That helped me to realise I had been careless beforehand.

This one is definitely in my top 10, despite its flaws. As I wrote in another comment here, this one has flaws but its *spirit* is elite level. It would be very hard for me to recommend changes to it at the risk of upsetting its balance. This is some of the best of TNG.

@Ca$hWednesday I agree. Definitely "his first time." Also consider that a regular human may have been disappointed or hurt by Tasha's "it never happened" comment, but Data cannot have those emotions. Lucky for him.

Enterprise is grass. Everything after that is inedible.

I cannot see them "hating" it per se. But I can see where it might not strike them in the same way we view it. Odds are I'm wrong, though, and it will be a hit.

Yup. My biggest gripe with the episode

O’Brian

I agree. This subject would have already been settled before Starfleet would have aloud him to put on a uniform, let alone command others or take the con.

I predict an appearance from Fireball…and often. 😃

Spoilers. I know you didn't state when that episode you named is coming, but this foreknowledge can impact their reaction to it when they get there. Edit: Thanks for editing your comment!

I do not see anything to speculate about. And yes, it is an answer... they were essentially drunk, things happened... Tasha said to him, more or less, let's keep our relationship professional. Is there evidence or even hints in any story that she reconsidered that position? No.

And we'll still get another great courtroom episode in season 4!

That’s hardly an answer. That’s the morning after. There’s a whole length of time between that moment and her death for someone to speculate about.

The first truly great episode of Star Trek: TNG. There are definitely good episodes of S1 & S2, but this one is something special.

I think there's a longer version of the episode on the blu ray ... like an hour, 12 minutes?

All I can say, is this along with Q who is one of the best episodes of the season.

Perhaps....but maybe she thought about it after that...I'm sure Data was...ah...never mind.

"It never happened." – Tasha Yar to Data, the morning after. There's your answer.

Which should have played out upon Data's application to Starfleet.

The "You buying?" question actually brings up more complications. I thought we got rid of money!?

I've always figured that, since admirals weren't subject to regular appearance, the costumer(s) kept experimenting in the hunt for "that look." That look that the production staff could point to and say, "Yes! That's what the flag officers should look like!"

@Monty Crawford Correct, I agree. The reversion to fisticuffs every other story in TOS never struck me as depicting an evolved, intellectual humanity, either. Gene wasn't perfect (vision-wise or person-wise) but he still was no slouch. I mean, this story still got made, after all.

I have at least one episode in mind for bawling, but we'll just have to see when we get there. There are multiple episodes I'd qualify as sad/moving stories. Maybe I'm just a big ol' softie.

Best episode out the of season one and season two run. The peak of S2. I will be shocked if this is not in either of your top five TNG list when you’re done with the series.

I think we all know what will make them ball, but that's yet to come. And, NO spoilers, TA.

As much as I respected Mr Roddenberry....his ideas of a utopian future really didn't make much sense sometimes...like no need for lawyers in the future. There will ALWAYS be laws and lawyers.

Rank has its fashion privileges? ;p

"Many souls were lost at sea". While it can be a religious term, in this situation I feel like it was just meant as a synonym for life.

I'm genuinely curious why there's so many variations of these things.

One of the best. While s2 wasn’t outstanding and contains my most hated TNG episode, it also had a few amazing ones. And it continued to explore themes of “what makes us human?”

Absolutely agree. It's an awesome scene for both Data and Picard

I'm counting on another future episode for this Lol

Yep. Michael Okuda confirmed in a Star Trek group some months back that the entire run of TNG you could go up into the scaffolding and look down, and see the original phase II set skeletons that the TMP/TNG sets had been built inside of.

Quick Hot Take: Despite everything I've said in this comment section, part of me that watched Wrath of Khan with you feels that maybe this might not impact you the way it did the rest of us. I am CURIOUS to see if you lock in with this one like we do.

This is brilliant. I want it printed on a poster❤️

LOL! I wouldn't hold your breath on that one. I don't think it's that kind of show for them. I could be wrong.

I said this on an earlier video, but my take: TOS is a Texan Sirloin Steak, TNG is a Filet Mignon from NYC, DS9 is a 24oz Porterhouse, Voyager is a Grilled Salmon, Enterprise is fresh lobster, Picard S3 is BBQ Spare Ribs. Anything beyond that is Tofu. ;p

He was a child genius "wunderkind" like Wesley. How else could he have grasped Noonian Soong's work where others in Starfleet could not? ; )

And Riker had a wistful momentary grin remembering Tasha and realizing that had happened. Man, Riker is sooo subtly GOOD in this episode. I felt his pain throughout.

"they don't really demonize Bruce Maddox" Agreed! Great point! I've seen the deleted scenes for this episode, and there is a scene that makes Maddox feel more like a bully/villain than he appears at other times. I am glad they removed that as it didn't gel with the ending.

Disagree. References to a "soul" does not automatically equate to "religion", as the term "soul" is a vague flowery term used for many descriptors ("this jazz music has soul") and is in context equated to the term "alive".

I was careful to not reveal anything about the episode.

We don't know the details, but I have always taken it as a not so subtle "remember, you owe me one."

Don't fret. I, for one, really enjoy these chats with fellow fans and viewers of the series. I enjoy seeing everyone's viewpoints and comments, even if I don't always agree with them. This is fun!

She was a practicing attorney at the time, too.

It has flaws but I can ignore them because the spirit of this episode is elite level.

The writer of the episode, Melinda M. Snodgrass, consulted Navy judge advocate generals for this episode and it shows.

Roddenberry was more good than bad. He made the Star Trek universe what it was.

I've always appreciated that because good critical thinking expects examination from angles like that.

There are many things to fear in this world, artificial intelligence is not yet one of them.

That editing sounds dreadful. I'm sorry. You can't take out the poker game! Because reasons.

Wonderful, spot on comment!

From what I read, Gene didn't like the idea of the existence or need for lawyers in the future.

We'll have to wait until the 7th season to have a serious discussion along these lines. :D

This one is definitely in my top 10, despite its flaws. As I wrote in another comment here, this one has flaws but its spirit is elite level. It would be very hard for me to recommend changes to it at the risk of upsetting its balance. This is some of the best of TNG.

It's one of the better ones. I think it's pretty difficult to pick one best episode to rule them all.