FULL DISCUSSION - Star Trek TNG S2E3 - Elementary, Dear Data
Added 2024-01-24 16:00:09 +0000 UTC**PATRON TAKES for The Last Starfighter is now up! We are discussing the movie tonight so make sure you get your take posted!
Comments
While I haven't seen this episode several times it has always been one of the most memorable. I literally laughed out loud at the end of the conference room scene when Capt. Picard simply says, "Merde." We didn't have google translate in 1988 so I guess this is the first instance where we hear Capt. Picard swear.
Mark
2024-02-04 06:28:29 +0000 UTCTo Stephen Johnson. This is all not really important, because regardless of whether the holodeck makes consistent sense or not, we will all willingly ignore issues if the story itself is engaging. However, on the very specific issue of whether paper in a holodeck is real (replicator produced), or holographic........two very specific holodeck based episodes (wink, wink....nudge, nudge) completely contradict each other about this.
Numinous2019
2024-01-26 21:53:04 +0000 UTCOkay (and you are correct about the holodeck 'rules' in season 1), but.......let's say you were to watch a certain season 6 episode...........now what happens when Picard demonstrates the 'rules' of the holodeck......I'm being vague to avoid any possible spoiling.
Numinous2019
2024-01-26 21:15:58 +0000 UTCNote that this episode represents a key character moment for Pulaski. At the beginning she is still very dismissive of androids. By the end she experiences attraction for and appreciation for Moriarti, who is completely an artificial intelligence.
Aramis Calcutt
2024-01-26 15:14:33 +0000 UTCOf course, not but there are massive differences here. First Vulcans were a known quantity for a hundred plus years before we meet Spock. So I thank that ship had sailed long before McCoy ever meet Spock. But let's be very, very clear. there very likely would be a huge number of people in the Federation and many in Starfleet who before they had got to know him would think he wasn't sentient. He's literally the first of his kind, and that isn't something that many are just going to accept without context of getting to know him. Obviously Data talks about his career in Starfleet so he would have over 15 or so years been able to likely convince those who spent much time around him. But what of those who had never. Pulaski falls into that group. And lets be very clear TNG is full of people, including the crew, that at one time or another will treat Data different then any other crew. Even look at just the first three episodes and you see that Pulaski is no longer questing his name, not calling him an it, not questing if he actually can understand her. We see her on a learning curve. Thats actually solid writing, as people generally just don't change one moment to the next. In fact Pulaski is far more social with Data then the last two episodes, in fact her big issue here is just what Data's limits are in how he learns. Kind of stupid, as even then there were a ton of stories (in various forms about machine learning and artificial intelligence). I mean seriously, based just on interactions Minuet appeared on surface more sentient then early Data (especially) in such a finite space of time. Yet Picard and Riker don't really react like thats even a real possibility with that programmed creation. What's more curious is how will she treat data from this point as she has literally had a first row seat in the very real possibility of being a holographic program become sentient. One that was created by the ships computer, but does that mean the ships computer is sentient?
Mark Wood
2024-01-26 02:14:11 +0000 UTCYou guys should read the book or listen to the audiobook of “I Have No Mouth, and I Must Scream”
Just another Red Shirt
2024-01-25 19:29:37 +0000 UTCI love Dr. Pulaski, I was in the Navy, you don’t instantly get along with all your shipmates. Dr. Pulaski is abrasive, but I believe she means well. I like seeing diversity of thought in a show based on many characters.
Just another Red Shirt
2024-01-25 19:01:29 +0000 UTCand even the worst insults about logic and Vulcan computer brain etc from McCoy, it was clear he never doubted Spock's very existence as a sentient being. Unlike this doc who in previous episodes talked like he wasn't even in the room and outright dismissed him etc
Derek Orr
2024-01-25 18:20:37 +0000 UTCits also because its pretty ludicrous for a member of Starfleet to be so dismissive of other forms of life
Derek Orr
2024-01-25 18:17:43 +0000 UTCwhy? what's ridiculous about that?
Derek Orr
2024-01-25 18:12:07 +0000 UTCit feels like just class tv fear of robots stuff ...and comes across as brutally mean and out of place today
Derek Orr
2024-01-25 18:10:36 +0000 UTCAnyone else notice that there was a bit of a nod to the Big Goodbye at the end ? When Professor Moriarty was ready to be deactivated he said he did not like dragging out a goodbye. Picard then says "Ah yes a Short Goodbye." I thought that was basically referencing the Big Goodbye. I also loved how instead of the character remaining a villain, when he started to develop consciousness he actually became somewhat of a good guy.
Mullinsky
2024-01-25 17:29:14 +0000 UTCYeah inanimate objects can leave the holodeck because its basically an item made by the replicators. Beings that are supposed to be living cannot because they cannot replicate a conscious living person.
Mullinsky
2024-01-25 17:24:14 +0000 UTCI have no idea but you gotta think down the road they'll bring Moriarity back. In those days shows were 26 episodes a season and this was a good character they left an opening for. To be honest, I find him more interesting than Q. On a side note, maybe you should watch a Sherlock movie, or the show Sherlock for a modern version.
Ken R
2024-01-25 10:25:14 +0000 UTCI'm with you, Alex, on Dr. Pulaski. I'm curious to see if and how your view on her will change over the course of the season; Josh's too of course. I never warmed up to her. Her unnecessary behavior towards Data is one thing, but just generally how she is and comes across to me (can't go into detail about it at this point) just puts me off completely.
DataDroid
2024-01-25 07:43:00 +0000 UTCFair enough!
PIG
2024-01-25 07:26:24 +0000 UTCAs one of those that is very critical of the first two seasons, this is a keeper. While The Big Goodbye really created this "genre" within TNG. I actually thank , primarily due to the actors and writers getting a better feel for the characters and their dialogue (so growth), that while the concept of the Big Goodbye is excellent, that the finished product on Elementary, Dear Data is the superior overall product. And, Rob Bowman, certainly helps this episodes case, as he is easily the best director for the first two seasons of the show to date. Not abad for a kid.
Mark Wood
2024-01-25 07:22:04 +0000 UTCOn the dislike of Pulaski (I actually don't dislike her, with one real exception), its very understandable for three reasons. 1. Gates was fired, and we the audience were a little upset about it. So we did to some degree transfer that emotion to the character that replaced her. 2. By having her attack Data a character that was very popular. Really didn't do the actress any favors. 3. Her character is any many ways "Bones". Probably the most direct copy of a character type from TOS, for the same position. Now I love Bones, and I loved his and Spock's interactions which could be both heated and insulting. But Spock is different than Data. Spock was McCoy's match, he responded. He didn't just take it. Data in many ways is an innocent, So it really felt like bullying someone who couldn't defend themselves. Not a good look. at all.
Mark Wood
2024-01-25 07:07:28 +0000 UTCAll I can say (to avoid calling too much attention to a pattern in the writing during S2) is that this review made a great deal of sense to me and explained specific writing that had seemed 'problematic' to me previously.
Numinous2019
2024-01-25 05:47:52 +0000 UTCDirector Rob Bowman was originally in line and looking forward to directing The Big Goodbye, but scheduling gave the episode to another director. Extremely disappointed, he poured everything into the look and feel of Elementary Dear Data to the point some have remarked it looked a bit too good for this story.
Mark Chrisco
2024-01-25 04:01:56 +0000 UTCI think the disdain for the doctor is because we like Data and see him as a person. Geordi is the stand in for us, defending Data to someone with a very myopic view of what makes something alive/a person.
DustmanNorochj
2024-01-25 03:07:15 +0000 UTCOne of the other Star Trek reaction channels (newbie star trek) did a pretty funny mash up short video of the Robert Downey Jr. Sherlock Holmes movie and Data.
Greg Quinn
2024-01-25 02:16:16 +0000 UTCAnd Data clearly knows about the Basil Rathbone and Nigel Bruce movies from the 1930s and 40’s given the way he was dressed.
Collin Freeman
2024-01-25 02:11:55 +0000 UTCIn the list I made listing the episodes according to my ratings, this one is under "Best of the Best", the first such rating this season.
KatWithAttitude
2024-01-25 01:50:02 +0000 UTCI think part of the hate towards Dr Pulaski is because she replaced Dr Crusher. Which isn't really fair. It is not her fault that Beverly isn't there anymore. They didn't fire Gates McFadden in order to bring in Diana Muldaur.
Regan
2024-01-25 01:20:59 +0000 UTCGlad to see you both really got into the themes and atmosphere of this episode. For as much of an absolute jumble as Season 2 is, it does have a handful of solid, foundational, world-building episodes. We will be revisiting themes and questions from this episode many times in the Seasons and Series to come. 😉
Avaria
2024-01-25 01:20:37 +0000 UTCThank you, Josh, for trying to keep an open mind about Dr. Pulaski; especially since Dr. Crusher was your favorite character from Season 1. Dr. Pulaski is actually a very good, purposefully written character. I'm so tempted to write a proper defense of her, but it would spoil things if it was posted before episode 21. In the meantime, Alex, as a Harry Mudd fan, if your only prior experience with androids was Norman, how would you initially view Data?
Avaria
2024-01-25 01:14:13 +0000 UTCAre you just drinking fireball? Do we need to talk?
Curzon Dax
2024-01-25 01:06:00 +0000 UTCAlex, give Dr. Pulaski time to grow on you. The character would never be allowed to be Chief Medical Officer on any Starfleet vessel, let alone the Flagship (Enterprise), if she weren't the best of the best OF the best. As TV shows go on and actors are "seen" bringing out character moments that are interpreted by them from what's on the written page, the writers of those shows become more and more invested, or inspired, or enthralled on where those characters can be taken - including their back stories. Look at all of Star Trek's characters from TOS to TAS and now TNG: they all have interesting arcs, and Pulaski has been seen in just three stories so far by you guys. KEEP WATCHING, and let us know how you feel about and/or perceive her character arc when Season Two is at an end. I sure wish I could say more about her, but I promised not to give any spoilers..............................
Rhett Coates
2024-01-25 00:33:18 +0000 UTC.keew eht fo neila eht yb thguorb elbuort fo daetsni werc eht no sucof ew won os taes kcab a nekat sah eneG
Andrew Skow
2024-01-25 00:21:37 +0000 UTCSomeone posted on facebook a while back that Data said he absorbed every bit of Holmes media there is...which means that Data watched RDJ's movies too. :D
tyranusfan
2024-01-25 00:07:51 +0000 UTCPicard saying merde makes up for it, though!
Jovet
2024-01-24 23:54:30 +0000 UTCWhen Polaski goes into the holodeck in this episode, and is astonished by its realism, this is explained to her by the dialogue from Geordi.
Jovet
2024-01-24 23:53:44 +0000 UTCNot I. I don't hate this episode, but I don't like it either. Too many logical plot holes for my taste.
Jovet
2024-01-24 23:51:51 +0000 UTCI still find the sci-fi laurel that the computer is capable of and would create "a sentient holographic being" to be ridiculous. There are also absolutely awful and ridiculous plot premises to come.
Jovet
2024-01-24 23:49:25 +0000 UTCI never ever got the impression they were trying to replicate the Bones/Spock competition. I can see now why people might think that, but I still don't see it.
Jovet
2024-01-24 23:46:56 +0000 UTCI always assume the holodeck replicated real paper, so it *could* be carried off the holodeck. The only real issue is Data showed it to Geordi upside-down. LOL
Jovet
2024-01-24 23:44:40 +0000 UTCI think that counts me in too.
PIG
2024-01-24 23:31:55 +0000 UTCMe, too
Collin Freeman
2024-01-24 23:23:57 +0000 UTCFor Data, it's the destination; for Geordi and the rest of us, it's the journey. Loved seeing Patrick Stewart in his 19th century duds. Gave me vibes of his one-man Scrooge performance. You guys should add Robert Downey Jr's Sherlock Holmes movies to your list. I found them both to be quite enjoyable.
Collin Freeman
2024-01-24 23:17:45 +0000 UTCI always thought the murder was a random side-effect of Moriarty's presence and an indication that something was very wrong on the holodeck.
KMScudder
2024-01-24 23:17:43 +0000 UTCSo I love that Alex has already clued into Data's trademark head movements when he's processing something.
JD Nevesytrof
2024-01-24 22:36:55 +0000 UTCI've always been annoyed that by the way Geordi flips over that paper, he was looking at an upside down picture of the Enterprise. But the director was maybe excited by the flip-over reveal visual so he left it like that.
Joe Concepts
2024-01-24 21:59:35 +0000 UTCWell it did take place right near his hideout, so I always assumed somehow he did set that up to ensure that Data noticed him. And he sort of pretended to be hiding from him only to lure him in further.
Joe Concepts
2024-01-24 21:56:45 +0000 UTCWhen I first saw these as a kid, It took a sci-fi like STNG to get me interested in crime noirs (The Big Goodbye) and Holmes (Elementary, Dear Data). That's how great this show is. It got me way deep into other genres and it's a spaceship with advanced humans and aliens. That's just incredible.
PIG
2024-01-24 21:55:28 +0000 UTCNice insight!
JD Nevesytrof
2024-01-24 21:31:08 +0000 UTCSo the picture of the Enterprise. It is drawn on paper and remains solid. This is not a mistake, in the orginal story Picard looks at the picture and says something along the lines of "as intelligent as he is, we are fortunate that he never put it together" or words to the effect that Professor Motarity could have left all along. However, someone decided that made Picard a liar, and it was written out. However since then it has been proposed that the holodeck simply uses replicator technology for simple "inanimate" things like food and paper (hence if you eat a meal in the holodeck and walk it..it doesn't suddenly come energize and frizz out in your stomach as you leave).
Greg Quinn
2024-01-24 21:26:40 +0000 UTCI never figured it out, but when this review put it in context it was blindingly obvious and explained a lot of things I just couldn't get my head around........it's really very simple.
Numinous2019
2024-01-24 21:11:48 +0000 UTCThis episode was nominated for two Emmy awards: Outstanding Costume Design for a Series, and Outstanding Art Direction for a Series.
Adam Zey
2024-01-24 20:55:52 +0000 UTCMany people have this episode on their list of the ten best episodes of the entire series.
Turtleboy
2024-01-24 20:25:51 +0000 UTCThe thought just occurred to me when you mentioned if the Moriarty character could be brought back or if it really has consciousness because it was just made out of energy...in the franchise there are many instances of beings....usually far more advanced....being composed of just energy. A couple being in TOS. So the computer should be able to reintegrate the character with no memory loss, or it actually was aware of time passing while in "storage".
Monty Crawford
2024-01-24 19:19:59 +0000 UTCI have no idea what this is referring to and I've seen the show for decades so now I'm curious.
JD Nevesytrof
2024-01-24 19:18:07 +0000 UTCmy point exactly
Ee'char
2024-01-24 19:03:26 +0000 UTCheavy stuff. lemme smoke a bowl and get back to you on this one
James Bottas
2024-01-24 18:43:51 +0000 UTCThey establish in the first episode that they use replicated matter. Riker says it looks so real and Data says most of it is real. Wesley got wet, Picard got hit by a snowball. The computer decides in like a split second what is a needed prop and what is just set dressing.
Philbot
2024-01-24 18:42:51 +0000 UTCI'm not sure he would have had any influence over the victim's wife -- unless he asked the computer to provide an unrelated side scenario.
Anthony Bernacchi
2024-01-24 18:10:04 +0000 UTCIn season 2 there is a deliberate effort to course-correct something which rubbed many of the audience the wrong way in season 1. I don't want to say what this is yet (because we get variations on it in several episodes). At the time I thought this was just odd writing and it left me scratching my head in puzzlement. Recently I read a review of season 2 which explained exactly what the writing team were at. I'll say more once the guys finish S2.
Numinous2019
2024-01-24 18:09:13 +0000 UTCI think the writer structured that scene the way they did, because they wanted a visual reveal of the drawing last and the audience first to be asking why Data is so startled and then deeply concerned.
Numinous2019
2024-01-24 18:01:19 +0000 UTCTaking this episode and what we've seen so far, yeah the paper could be replicated. However, a spoiler to a later episode would indicate that, even the paper should disappear once off the holodeck... But I won't say more than that. It isn't until Season 3 that the "rules" of the holodeck are cemented fully. In season 1 we saw Wesley come out soaked in water, and yes, food would probably have to be real given it would mess you up to have that disappear from your insides suddenly.
Steven Johnson
2024-01-24 17:25:46 +0000 UTCBut should it, though? The holodeck has some replicator technology in it. While a person or animal has to be controlled by the computer so can’t leave, it’s probably just easier for something small and inanimate to actually be the thing it represents. That’s my take…
Silk
2024-01-24 17:06:06 +0000 UTCThis is the thing with TNG Season 2, I think most people will agree. When Season 2 is good, it's *really* good. When its bad, it's... Awful. I think it's fair to say that it has much higher peaks and valleys than Season 1, and at the same time doesn't have quite the consistent quality of seasons 3-5. Which is why you'll find that there's a fairly consistent belief that season 1 is "just bad" and Season 2 seems to have a higher variance of people who love it and people who hate it.
Steven Johnson
2024-01-24 17:01:42 +0000 UTCDidn’t even think about that but true, paper should’ve disappeared lol
Josh (Target Audience)
2024-01-24 16:52:42 +0000 UTCMore than most episodes, this one makes me wonder what Geordie sees when he looks at things like everything on the holodeck, or a pencil drawing on a piece of paper that somehow Data was able to carry out... But I still love this episode and the idea that the only thing keeping the computer from being sentient is it hasn't been asked to do anything that requires it.
Julie Carter
2024-01-24 16:52:18 +0000 UTCI think it’s Moriarty who subtly proves Pulaski wrong by demonstrating that an artificial intelligence can be given consciousness. When Picard tells Moriarty that Data is more than a machine, Pulaski no longer disputes it.
James H
2024-01-24 16:49:23 +0000 UTCRegarding the Bones/Spock vs Pulaski/Data comparison: To me it's different because Bones teased Spock but he respected him, meanwhile Pulaski has no respect for Data and sees him as nothing more than a talking calculator.
Doug
2024-01-24 16:48:27 +0000 UTCIt is a minor point, but Data carries a holographic piece of paper off the holodeck. I can't see why the drawing of the Enterprise D by Moriarty couldn't have been shown to the audience while in the holodeck. Data could then have rushed to the holodeck control panel and the suspense would have been that the holodeck programme couldn't be shut down. Instead we get a delay of the reveal of the drawing.
Numinous2019
2024-01-24 16:47:23 +0000 UTCI just thought the murder was Moriarty's attempt to delay Data and Geordie
Ee'char
2024-01-24 16:22:31 +0000 UTCDaniel Davis played the butler on the tv show the Nanny
Mark
2024-01-24 16:12:25 +0000 UTCI've actually been aboard the real HMS Victory! It's now a museum ship, dry-docked at Portsmouth, UK.
Ee'char
2024-01-24 16:07:29 +0000 UTC
