FULL DISCUSSION - Star Trek TNG S1E23 - Skin of Evil
Added 2023-12-20 15:30:02 +0000 UTC
Comments
This is one of those episodes I've been waiting for you to get to from when I started watching your reactions to TOS season one. I watched Next Gen from the premiere as a kid during its original airing on TV, and Tasha was my favorite character right out of the gate at that age. So when this episode hit, it melted my brain - this sort of thing was all-but unheard of with main cast members at the time on TV shows and I had no real framework for it. The fact that it derives from issues behind the scenes remains sad. It remains something I wish hadn't been happening for Denise Crosby. Without question. In show though and, particularly, in the scope of Trek across the decades, losing Tasha just feels really seismic narratively in a way that still looms large all this time later. And that places Tasha, a character who remains firmly secured in my affections even if she's not my number one in Next Gen now that I am well into middle age, in a really special place in terms of the grand scope of Trek. So, its a very conflicting thing, even now, but I see the long term pluses as well as the ambient minuses to us losing her. I don't think there's an easy way to position this loss in any of the contexts it exists within and that keeps it a powerful thing, to say the least.
Knights Who Say Sledge
2024-01-01 17:10:07 +0000 UTC*cough*ominous spoilers*cough*
Jovet
2023-12-24 12:11:07 +0000 UTC?
Monty Crawford
2023-12-23 05:42:49 +0000 UTCOh come on.
Michael Parnell
2023-12-23 01:42:51 +0000 UTCThe situation around Denise leaving is kinda of messed up. After the first few episodes Tasha is just kinda of there, and Denise was bored. She had asked to be let go from her contract and they let her go. They didn’t even try to appease her. They were more than willing to let her go. Almost glad she wanted to leave. Part of the reason was that was the main cast ended up being larger than originally intended and having so many characters made it difficult to include everyone in stories. The character of Worf was a very late addition to the main cast, some of the early promotional photos of the main cast do not include him. Originally, Gene did not want to see any of the alien races from TOS at the forefront in TNG, Bob Justman and others convinced Gene that it would be cool to have a reoccurring character on the bridge that’s a Klingon to fulfill the prediction the Organians made back in TOS that the Federation and the Klingons would be friends in the future. Michael Dorn was cast as that reoccurring character, but he was so good while filming the pilot the character was bumped to main cast before filming was completed. Unfortunately, Tasha‘s death opens a lot of opportunities for the Worf character which in the long run plays out well. The Tasha character is never forgotten by the series, even briefly mentioned in the recent season 3 of Star Trek Picard. Denise Crosby also made a couple of documentaries about Star Trek fandom that are quite good.
Rich Loga
2023-12-21 22:11:54 +0000 UTCI do think that Josh has a point that while from the perspective of a viewer watching a story, maybe having that distracting death isn't the best idea. But the idea maybe was to really finally show in this fictional line of work and even maybe in a real world military, after that sudden death their job wouldn't allow them time to process it. Grieving would have to wait with the mission still happening. That would've maybe worked better if the rest of the Armus story was stronger?
Joe Concepts
2023-12-21 14:14:26 +0000 UTCThis is one of those ideas that sounds better in theory than in actual storytelling. Killing off a main character with shocking suddenness and only part way through an episode. Can happen in real life without time to adequately mourn and resolve. Translating that to fiction......it would take exceptional writing to make it fully work. This episode does feel like this was the result of a very rapid decision as to reconcile Crosby wanting to leave with writing Yar out of the show.
Numinous2019
2023-12-21 12:30:02 +0000 UTCit was in the previews, their on the disk check it out
Scarpad’s Domain
2023-12-21 05:52:06 +0000 UTCpicard new armus achilles heel was being abadonned and that would cause him to get riled up and allow the field to drop to the level that they could beam the crew out. I think the downside of having to watch these on camera that you miss some stuff, plus the point of a senseless death is played up later and will be paid off
Scarpad’s Domain
2023-12-21 05:45:54 +0000 UTCListening to the ideas of how they would have rewritten the episode made me like this episode even less (because they are so right). I also had another thought off of that. Why not just have her promoted to be first officer on another ship? They could have had another conversation with Worf discussing whether she wanted to or not, still had her attacked and put into a coma, but ended it with her recovering and having a third conversation with Worf realizing that she needs to take her opportunities when they come up. Writers should always leave a way to bring a character back. Also, only an hour away at impulse and they need to go to warp 8?
Nerd's Gold
2023-12-21 05:45:12 +0000 UTCtasha's death so early shows the crew has to put it behind them so so theay can do their jobs, i liked that
Scarpad’s Domain
2023-12-21 05:42:57 +0000 UTCin the episode Crusher said the creature sucked the life out of her
Scarpad’s Domain
2023-12-21 05:37:33 +0000 UTCActually I think Tasha's death was a gift to the future writers, as they were able to incorporate her death into some excellent future story arcs....which you will find out.
Monty Crawford
2023-12-21 05:17:00 +0000 UTCI think technically he was a Duty Officeer, there to be on call should one of the bridge crew need to step away from their post. As we see done several times.
Nolan
2023-12-21 05:01:01 +0000 UTCHey guys, I figured you wouldn't like this one very much. Josh you took this pretty well, when I saw this in 88 I was so PO'd....alot more than you were! So I guess this makes 2 Not so good or Bad Eps to me out of 23. 😢 🖖
Duane Chancey
2023-12-21 04:56:27 +0000 UTCyeah it's been talked about :)
James Bottas
2023-12-21 04:53:55 +0000 UTCAlso, has anyone comented on the uniform color swap from TOS? How command was gold and security was red.
Crush
2023-12-21 04:21:12 +0000 UTCNot sure if you guys noticed in TOS their rank was on their sleeves.
Crush
2023-12-21 04:15:54 +0000 UTCYeah, I wondered about that, too. I even posted that information myself in one of the Patron Takes a couple months ago and they never mentioned reading it.
KatWithAttitude
2023-12-21 03:48:40 +0000 UTCI must admit that I was surprised that Alex and Josh had never realised that the pips on the uniform collars are rank insignia. For the record, there are full pips (gold) and half-pips (black with a gold rim) and they mean the following- 1 = Ensign 1½ = Lieutenant Junior Grade 2 = Lieutenant Senior Grade 2½ = Lieutentant Commander 3 = Commander 4 = Captain 5+ = Flag officers (Admirals, Commodores)
Regan
2023-12-21 03:31:25 +0000 UTCUp until this point Worf doesn't even have a job title. Picard is the captain, Riker is the first officer, Data is the second officer and operations officer, LaForge is the helmsman, Yar is the tactical officer and Worf is... that Klingon guy standing at the back of the bridge near one of the science stations, despite not actually being a science officer.
Regan
2023-12-21 02:31:52 +0000 UTCman there is soo much i want to talk about in this series but spoilers and i wouldnt do that to anyone except maybe my most hated enemy lol. all jokes aside, this episode while not greatest was good (not my first time watching TNG i grew up on the reruns) Tasha's death while it sucks doesnt really pull on the heart strings till the end of the episode where she's talking to everyone gathered even to this day i tear up at that point in the episode. Maybe its because i have dealt with a lot of death in my life but episodes with characters dying really makes me tear up doesnt matter if its moves, tv shows, books or videogames. Worf's promotion to Acting security/tact officer was a shock the first time i saw this episode and seeing him declining to go down to the planet and stay on the ship a big move on his part, it shows that even though he wanted to avenge Tasha he knew if went down there and fought Armas only to possibly die himself would dishonor her memory. at least thats the way i see it he could of easily gone full Klingon and probably ripped Armas in half (for all the good that would do) . Coming up to the end of the season, theres an episode in Season 2 that i would love to talk to yall about when you get there as its personally one of my favorite episodes.
GamingHour2018
2023-12-21 02:00:44 +0000 UTCI am pretty sure she said in a interview that she thought the show was going no where but when it did as well as it did she regretted leaving (there are more spoilers but thats all i will say ;) )
GamingHour2018
2023-12-21 01:49:25 +0000 UTCI bet they realize that and discuss it more in an upcoming episode.
Collin Freeman
2023-12-21 01:47:00 +0000 UTCI expected them to talk about that in their discussion, as Worf was promptly promoted to, essentially, a main character. I figured they'd be especially excited about that.
Jovet
2023-12-21 00:15:49 +0000 UTCI agree.
Jovet
2023-12-21 00:13:43 +0000 UTCIt's a good idea but ultimately it would have been perceived as a failure on Picard's part and people for right or wrong would have blamed him from that point on.
JD Nevesytrof
2023-12-20 23:04:35 +0000 UTCI’d say wait until after all of TNG as it makes a good wrap-up extra.
Paul Rymer
2023-12-20 21:34:46 +0000 UTCTasha's departure is what allows Worf's character to take a bigger role in the show. So some good did come of it. Worf was originally intended as a background character, just there to show that old enemies can become friends. But now he has to step up and become one of the main cast.
Regan
2023-12-20 21:22:05 +0000 UTCIndeed, massive spoilers in that one. So not to be watched before at least reaching season 5
Andreas Schmitt
2023-12-20 21:12:11 +0000 UTCAre you pronouncing the names wrong on purpose? Why?
Sam Langanke
2023-12-20 20:30:19 +0000 UTCRecommend you watch Shatner's documentary Chaos on the Bridge when you finish TNG as there are some spoilers IIRC but it breaks down the behind the scenes problems in the first season or two of TNG as it was trying to get going. It was really well done. Shatner is great in it. You will get some answers about Denise and the troubles pretty much everyone was having.
Strife
2023-12-20 20:19:46 +0000 UTCOf note: The episode was never written to be her death episode. It was a script they modified to allow her to leave before the end of the season. So, remove her death and funeral and you have what the original script was about.
StonyD
2023-12-20 20:13:14 +0000 UTCShe had a very short guest stint on General Hospital a few months back.
Glenn Johnson Barnes
2023-12-20 19:57:13 +0000 UTCAlex, sounds like you wanted a Kirk to deal with Armis instead of Picard. My complaint is the entire "story" just seemed rushed, like "we need an episode to kill off Tasha and a way to do it", so they came up with it over lunch and wrote it that way. I imagine Denise Crosby's leaving caught the producers off guard and they had to come up with a script rather quick, and it shows.
Collin Freeman
2023-12-20 19:42:29 +0000 UTCAmazing what you can do with printer's ink and a 1/2 ton of Metamucil.
Collin Freeman
2023-12-20 19:35:49 +0000 UTCMany have complained about Tasha's unheroic death, but the way she died didn't really bother me. It is definitely a shock and catches the audience off guard. In the context of the show, anyone can die from anything for any reason (or no reason) at any time. Tasha was killed in the line of duty, heroic or not. In that sense, it is as true to life and death as you can get.
Collin Freeman
2023-12-20 19:34:46 +0000 UTCI get why you do it, because its fun, but man I am just not the kind of audience member who watches something and then immediately starts brainstorming on how to "optimize" the script. Just not a screenwriter I guess. For me, often a script that "could've used a few more passes" is MORE authentic and lifelike. Its a good thing to me when pacing is occasionally off or events didn't happen in an order that makes the "perfect" script, because thats how life is! Sometimes life is poorly paced. Sometimes the shock comes early and you have to press on and deal with the aftermath later. Sometimes you get killed meaninglessly. These all work for me, and sometimes the brainstorming session afterwards only serves to make the episode worse in hindsight. Again, not a knock against anyone, just a perspective
James Bottas
2023-12-20 19:13:41 +0000 UTCShe did have various guest roles throughout TV.
Joe Concepts
2023-12-20 18:48:55 +0000 UTCWe talk a little bit about the extent of our knowledge in the intro of the first TNG video
Josh (Target Audience)
2023-12-20 18:41:38 +0000 UTC@TargetAudience Wow you guys always want the super dark stuff lol
Andreas Schmitt
2023-12-20 18:35:38 +0000 UTCSo I am curious how much you guys have seen before. I mean it would be hard to not to have some prior knowledge and you may have chatted about it before. Just curious going forward.
Glenn Zigli
2023-12-20 18:09:57 +0000 UTCHave a Merry Christmas!!!!!! .. What?
PIG
2023-12-20 17:43:41 +0000 UTCIt might be weird for people on camera to see how you can read them, but Alex's reaction looks just like he said he was thinking. He realized right away she must be dead, but didn't want to say anything.
Joe Concepts
2023-12-20 17:41:17 +0000 UTCHave to say that Tasha will at least not be completely forgotten by the show. Her crewmates at least remember her.
Joe Concepts
2023-12-20 17:39:09 +0000 UTCA lot of people loved her character. That's one of the reasons she's still doing the conventions with everyone. She's still loved by the fans. As much as people often don't like the first season, everybody agrees that Tasha was one of the best parts of that season. So she's definitely part of the family and always will be.
Andreas Schmitt
2023-12-20 17:32:46 +0000 UTCI never watched any of the behind the scenes stuff on TNG, but from what I remember, she basically felt her character was going nowhere and she was starting to get movie roles. She rolled the dice on hollywood, made a few B movies and then that was unfortunately it for her career. I can't say I blame her.
Ca$hWednesday
2023-12-20 17:24:14 +0000 UTCIt’s Interesting that you mention her fan/convention scene presence. It was a while ago, but I believe she ends up being the narrator of the “Trekkies” films exploring the fandom back in the peak era. Does that make her sort of a fan ambassador? That’s certainly something.
Dan Proctor
2023-12-20 17:22:03 +0000 UTCAgreed.
Paul Rymer
2023-12-20 17:21:21 +0000 UTCThat’s because he’s THE BOY WHO LIVED
Josh (Target Audience)
2023-12-20 17:20:06 +0000 UTCObviously not on the same level, but it was nice having a strong female character that didn’t have a romantic connection to a male character on the show
Josh (Target Audience)
2023-12-20 17:18:08 +0000 UTCIs were around back then Biff wouldn’t have had to write his own fan letters that’s for sure!
Josh (Target Audience)
2023-12-20 17:16:25 +0000 UTCAs it was on the Holodeck, it could have been reactive to whoever was in attendance. Though I can't imagine she had something for all of the 1,000 plus on the ship. Especially not this episode's engineer.
CM Waters
2023-12-20 17:13:33 +0000 UTCHe was only in two episodes! Crosby is a show veteran compared to him! LOL!
Jovet
2023-12-20 17:11:33 +0000 UTCShe's had fairly steady work from what I saw glancing over things. Don't look things up if you haven't seen all the Star Trek series, though.
Jovet
2023-12-20 17:08:43 +0000 UTCYeah, that's very plausible!
Jovet
2023-12-20 17:06:58 +0000 UTCI like the way it was done. Shocking and reverberated the stakes through the rest of the story. The way Alex and Josh mentioned changing it would have been interesting, sure, but I find no issue with how it was done. Harry Potter got a lightning scar on his forehead but Tasha only got that lousy hippy facepaint. (LOL)
Jovet
2023-12-20 17:06:35 +0000 UTCIf that’s the case then lame of her not to invite BIFF YEAGER
Josh (Target Audience)
2023-12-20 17:04:37 +0000 UTCShe may have left a request for just those people to be there. That would explain it.
KatWithAttitude
2023-12-20 16:59:32 +0000 UTCThis could have been a lot better. I'm sure on YouTube there are countless examples from soap operas of death scenes done with more finesse and drama. Still, sorry to see her go but they kind of ignored her after the first few episodes. After the fight on the monkey bars on the episode that wasn't really racist I don't think she ever got focus again. I was pleasantly surprised to see her 10 years ago on Walking Dead as the cannibal who has the showdown with Carol, but I don't know if I've seen her since.
Ken R
2023-12-20 16:54:57 +0000 UTC15:00 The only thing I didn't like about the funeral scene is how Yar's pre-recorded message just happened to address everyone that was in attendance, no more or no fewer.
Jovet
2023-12-20 16:52:35 +0000 UTCI read it ages ago. But I can't quote it. Alas I can't really respond to this comment until the entire show is over.
Jovet
2023-12-20 16:49:44 +0000 UTCSimiliar to Denise Crosby, Nichelle Nichols had wanted to leave TOS because she felt they weren't doing anything with her character only convinced otherwise when Martin Luther King Jr. personally asked her to stay. With him feeling it was important to the civil rights movement for a black person to be represented as a normal member of a multiracial group. So she soldered through it. Denise would regret leaving show, but the death of her character would have an effect of events throughout the show
Justin DiBari
2023-12-20 16:49:19 +0000 UTC6:21 Remember that Armus had teleported Geordi's visor earlier.
Jovet
2023-12-20 16:42:20 +0000 UTC4:18 The crew didn't have time to grieve, either. The show must go on!
Jovet
2023-12-20 16:39:51 +0000 UTCWow that would be excellent! Picard and crew think they’ve outsmarted it and got away but he kills her as one final act. That’s good stuff 👏🏻
Josh (Target Audience)
2023-12-20 16:37:48 +0000 UTCI am with you on leaving the death to the end. How about this: Tosha beamed back up on full life support. They get Troy back up to ship and Artimus instead of yelling kills Tosha as he was still connection with her. BAM then funeral, then end credits.
Prof Moff
2023-12-20 16:35:10 +0000 UTCMany fans assume Denise Crosby regretted leaving the show but I've never heard her say that, there's a relatively recent interview from last year and she sounded perfectly fine with the decision, she said she had no kids to feed and no mortgage to pay which would have been reasons to stay despite being unhappy, right after leaving the show she did Pet Sematary and got to meet Stephen King and that was more fun for her than the entire first season of TNG and it would not have happened had she stayed on TNG.
Phillip Grischa
2023-12-20 16:24:19 +0000 UTCChaos On The Bridge has MAJOR spoilers for the entire series. Not to be watched until the end of the series.
Stephen Wright
2023-12-20 16:23:20 +0000 UTCSomeone cutting onions?
AzoriusMage
2023-12-20 16:22:53 +0000 UTCYeah, the thing is even if the Patrons don’t go full into it we already know there will be hundreds of different versions of the story in our YouTube comments lol
Josh (Target Audience)
2023-12-20 16:22:35 +0000 UTCThere are reasons why things were paced the way they were. You'll get lots of behind the scenes explanations in the other thread.
KatWithAttitude
2023-12-20 16:12:16 +0000 UTCif I were you I wouldn't look up Denise Crosby and TNG to know the backstory as it may impact on your enjoyment of the show. Look up all that stuff after you've finished it all. "Chaos On The Bridge" covers most of the backstage shenanegans.
Paul Rymer
2023-12-20 16:10:43 +0000 UTCAnd once again, one of you guys muse you'd love to see something in particular that we all know you'll get down the line! Little joys whenever that happens.
JD Nevesytrof
2023-12-20 16:06:33 +0000 UTCI’m so sorry guys. Nevermore have I wanted to warn you that something awful was coming up. But I had to honor that no spoilers rule.R.I.P. Tasha🙁
Rich Cirivilleri
2023-12-20 15:48:37 +0000 UTC
