Buffy the Vampire Slayer 2x17 FULL Reaction
Added 2022-03-03 14:49:32 +0000 UTCSo, did anything happen this episode?.... Oh that's right, MISS CALENDAR. I'm still processing what happened honestly, and I might just have to stop this show (not really, but c'mon!!). But what a brutally devastating yet amazing episode, I don't even know where we're going to go from here...
Comments
Nick: I am in shock. How did the show do this?! First rule of the Buffyverse; nobody is allowed to be happy. Ever.
fatalfae
2024-04-13 20:26:37 +0000 UTCAngelus is a straight up emotional sadist. He gets more pleasure from the pain he causes, then from the actual kill.
Becky Mitchell
2024-03-21 02:29:23 +0000 UTCThis is the best episode of Buffy (up to this point) in my opinion. I've probably seen this episode at least 50 times over the years and I still cry every single time. I usually cry three times - once when Giles finds Jenny in his bed, once when Buffy and Willow get the news about Jenny, and once when Buffy breaks down after rescuing Giles from the factory. Back when this originally aired, no one saw it coming and everyone I knew who watched Buffy was shocked, horrified, and devastated.
Helena Briner-Ellis
2024-02-22 01:06:03 +0000 UTCTried to show you a meme we have on the Buffyverse about the part about Willow's fish xD
fatalfae
2022-12-31 22:33:05 +0000 UTCI didn't see it coming It was pretty rare to kill off major characters back then (although not unknown). Giles and Jenny are the only OTP I've ever had so, yeah, I feel your pain :'(
R J Walker (FumblesMcStupid)
2022-03-12 15:02:59 +0000 UTCCompletely agree about the telling Joyce part. Plus, since when could Giles get Buffy to do something she didn't want to do? If she'd really wanted to tell her mother she could have at any time. It just wasn't a good move. I also don't see Giles as exactly a 'dad' either despite there being several potential 'dad' moments (in the car in Innocence, dumping Jenny and sticking to it for weeks etc). Their relationship is far more complicated than that and how could he send her out every night to kill vampires if he thought of himself as her dad? I dunno, I don't think I could :/
R J Walker (FumblesMcStupid)
2022-03-12 15:01:52 +0000 UTCSame, his demeanour totally changes as soon as Jenny says she's talked to Buffy. It's not nice that he ices her out for this long but it is his job to priorities the slayer and it's a major 'dad' move as well. But I feel so badly for Jenny as well, who is trying to make things right and being treated so badly at the same time. At least IMO they were both aware that things were moving in the right direction the last time they talked. If they hadn't had that scene I may have committed murder! It kills me that he never told her that he loved her though :'(
R J Walker (FumblesMcStupid)
2022-03-12 14:55:49 +0000 UTCNo one is safe
hannemanart
2022-03-08 01:26:41 +0000 UTCNo, in the epsiode Giles said they did the 'keep out' spell on the school. So she was asking how Angel got in because of the spell. Angel found a vampire loop hole.
Jeffrey Vasquez
2022-03-06 15:38:56 +0000 UTCA trope is a theme or device used in story telling. They are usually common or overused. You did give good examples of other shows that killed off main characters but at the time Buffy did it there aren't enough examples to make it a trope IMHO. I remember loving China Beach...yep I'm old. You are right that I WAS WRONG saying that Buffy was groundbreaking by doing it first.
Allan Cornett
2022-03-05 22:27:56 +0000 UTCThe fun thing is that, at one point, the "solid state" disc (3.25 inches, IIRC) was the NEW thing; they replaced the original 5.5 inch disc, which did *literally* flop. (It was a magnetic surface in a fiber sleeve; no hard plastic involved.)
Jessica Roth
2022-03-05 17:28:07 +0000 UTC"China Beach" killed a main cast character halfway through Season 1; I'm sure there were other cases. (That was just the first to spring to mind.) Heck, "Star Trek: The Next Generation", in IMO a particularly awful episode. That was closer to the S1 finale (I think 22 of 24, or something) and they didn't have a strictly serialized plot (a lot of pure standalones), but still.
Jessica Roth
2022-03-05 17:23:42 +0000 UTCIt may have been a trope in literature but I cannot think of any other show that h did it back then…can you?
Allan Cornett
2022-03-05 09:51:58 +0000 UTCB-Joyce thinks Buffy's delusional and (to quote Ted) she "finds [herself] spending [her] best dating years in a mental institution" C-Joyce realizes that Buffy is telling the truth…and like any good parent would, gets her daughter as far away from the danger as fast as possible. (This is why I never consider Giles "Buffy's father", no matter how much affection they share. Hank would never let Buffy risk her life every night; Giles sends her out there even though she's *already died*.) Now, while Buffy struggling to convince the board at the Sunnydale Home for the Severely Nutso that she was just kidding, she knows vampires don't exist, or Buffy sitting on her front porch in El Paso TX bored out of her mind might make for an interesting change-of-pace episode, it doesn't seem very sustainable. And since IMO the chance that Joyce is just going to be all "Okay, honey, go fight for your life…but be home by curfew!" seems reeeeeaaaally small, it's quite understandable that just telling Joyce might not be as simple as one could think. All JMO, though,
Jessica Roth
2022-03-05 07:34:33 +0000 UTCBuffy actually can't "just tell Joyce". She's not a legal person yet, so she's subject to Joyce's decisions. And this is almost certain to end one of three ways, all of them bad: A-Joyce just thinks Buffy's lying to her (Buffy does lie a lot, and not very believably), and things are even more strained between them.
Jessica Roth
2022-03-05 07:27:56 +0000 UTCTo be fair to Cordelia, she may have heard that vampires like their victims young (and fresh) as established by the Master in the pilot. Of course, Spike ruins that idea in "School Hard" when he kills the teacher even though he says the teacher is too old to eat…but Cordy was hiding in the closet and missed that. The bit about the sign is just Angel being a jerk, though. The school's. a public building, so vampires can come and go without any further invites. Spike's been there, Darla was there twice, and Angel's been coming and going regularly, as recently as three eps ago. (Not to mention the hordes in "Prophecy Girl", the Anointed's crew in 2.01, and Spike's gang; vampires were in the school in four out of five eps from 1.11 to 2.03. And none of them needed a sign.)
Jessica Roth
2022-03-05 07:17:23 +0000 UTCThe contemporary critic David Hines did pretty much call it in his review of "Innocence"; he said that Calendar would come back one more time, try to redeem herself, and die in the attempt. So it was probably a bit of a trope, even then. That's why I'm always so glad to see Jenny in BB&B, to know that Angel didn't completely define her life, That she had one last month to teach her class and search the web and stroke Xander's upper arm ;) and live her life, even if just for that short a time. Farewell, Jana. I will mourn you forever.
Jessica Roth
2022-03-05 07:10:52 +0000 UTCVampires don't need an invite into the school. It's not a home.
Tania
2022-03-04 13:27:38 +0000 UTCBuffy like many shows are plot driven. If the antagonists were actually real life smart, the protagonist would be dead. They wouldn’t be playing tag team in fight scenes, they wouldn’t be talking so much and keeping the protagonists alive gloating about their victories. You’ll find most shows and movies will have had their protagonists at their antagonists hands but for plot sake you can’t kill the protagonist LOL.
Rey
2022-03-04 12:07:17 +0000 UTCI think this was the first episode of TV that broke my heart into a million pieces. Also the first time I was ever so shocked at a character’s death. Season 2 of Buffy for me never ceases to blow my mind. It’s beyond brilliant & bold storytelling. And it’s ain’t over yet. Lol. I don’t know why but hearing Angel’s voiceover, his monologue about passion… it just destroys me every time I watch it. Such beautiful words spoken by someone who has just done something so terrible. I think it hits very differently than if Buffy or even Giles had been the one to say it. Hearing it from Angelus… is just like acute agony. I miss the character of Angel more much more fiercely in that moment.
Jamie
2022-03-04 10:36:50 +0000 UTCNot really stupid on spikes part (or well yes maybe stupid but not at all contradictory to his character) if you consider what he wants most. At this point he wants angel gone more than he wants Buffy or any of her friends dead. So him stopping dru from joining the fight makes perfect sense considering his goals. Buffy (and Angel) are very well written shows, I’m not saying there are no continuity errors or maybe an occasional contradiction (and most of those are in the early seasons and are gonna get fewer and fewer) if you look very very deeply but in general the characters are phenomenally written. If a character action seems to not make sense it’s more likely that you haven’t fully comprehended their motivations than that the writers didn’t think about what would be motivating them.
Kyle Junge
2022-03-04 08:40:59 +0000 UTCThe way I read Giles and Jenny is Giles pretty much has forgiven her. But Buffy is a like a daughter to him. He can’t be with someone that his daughter doesn’t trust. Family comes first for Giles and if Buffy isn’t right with Jenny he can’t be with her. That’s why as soon as Jenny tells him what Buffy said, that she wants him to be happy and will be ok if him and Jenny are together he is immediately on board.
Kyle Junge
2022-03-04 08:38:40 +0000 UTCWow, I enjoyed this reaction immensely, Thor. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. It is literally a dream come true watching you react to this season. I just knew you would appreciate the amazing acting, writing and themes in S2. It was cool to see you so invested, so shocked and so heartbroken. I was quite concerned that this ep would get spoiled for you during the livestreams because you were stuck on ep 16 for so long. Thank goodness you were able to feel the full impact of this episode because you only get one chance. I honestly wish I could’ve watched S2 as an adult sometimes because I didn’t feel the gravity of this as a kid and of course upon rewatch I already knew Jenny’s fate. However, this episode still affects me every time because the acting is so good. The theme of consequence and the weight of death felt very real in this one and I love how complex it is emotionally. You feel for Jenny and Giles, you feel Buffy’s guilt, but at the same time, Angel is the love of Buffy’s life so you can understand it wasn’t easy for her to kill Angel when she had the chance either. And as sad as it is to lose Jenny, I think that it was necessary. We’ve heard so much about evil Angelus that there needed to be a pay off to that. It also forces Buffy to “grow up” once again. Until this point, she still held on to the Angel she loved. Jenny’s death forces Buffy to accept the reality that Angel is gone and the prospect of killing Angelus. I’m glad you appreciated the Jenny/ Angelus scene as well. I loved the lighting, the way they sustained the tension and the horror vibe they went with during the chase scene. I found myself feeling worried for Jenny even though I knew her fate…that’s how good this show is :) A scene that gets overlooked is “the talk” between Buffy and Joyce. That is such a well written and well acted scene. Again this show puts the viewer in a conflicted position. Yes Buffy has been lying to her mother but because of the Slayer thing and Angel’s curse, it’s so much more complicated than teenage rebellion. At the same time Joyce is doing the best she can (as you said). But I love how you feel the pain and frustration on both sides. Buffy saying she “made a mistake” breaks my heart as well because I personally don’t think she did. I mean she loved Angel and he loved her. That was a beautiful thing, but you really see the weight of guilt in this scene. It’s almost like she’s not allowed to grieve for Angel because of all the pain Angelus has caused. I find that so sad :( As for Spike and Drusilla…well Spike has every right to be upset. I’m pretty certain Angelus is doing more than just flirting with his girl 😂- Also, Angelus and Drusilla have a special bond because they are different to other vampires…including Spike. They, as you said, “like to play with their food.” Other vampires we’ve seen are more concerned with instant gratification. And I’m glad you also picked up on the line “ecstasy of grief.” That one stood out to me too. It’s so cruel, that only the worst kind of demon would take pleasure in that. It’s why I find Angelus such a fascinating villain. Anyway, this was probably one of the best reactions I’ve seen of this episode. I knew you wouldn’t be ready! haha 😈 - Thank you Thor! :)
Effie
2022-03-04 00:31:40 +0000 UTCMy favorite movie hero is Spider-Man and my favorite TV hero is Buffy. Both became hero’s in High School and both can quip with the best of them.
Allan Cornett
2022-03-04 00:05:31 +0000 UTCSpike didn't want Dru hurt either. Giles kills Angel and Dru is safe... win-win in Spike's mind
Dutchkel
2022-03-03 23:48:19 +0000 UTCLol I laughed at that too I hope Thor caught that she saved a copy of the spell to that disc...
Dutchkel
2022-03-03 23:46:22 +0000 UTCYes, same. Never saw it coming. Totally shocked.
Dutchkel
2022-03-03 23:45:37 +0000 UTCThe way Angelus plays the obsessive stalker ex towards Buffy's mom in this episode is SO chilling, because it feels very real. He really knows how to twist the knife. Such great acting all around.
Joelle Schutt
2022-03-03 22:25:36 +0000 UTCSo, I just got a chance to sit down and write a comment after watching the reaction earlier. First off, this was a very good reaction! As you mention, there are so many aspects that this episode excels at and many that are really only recognizable on rewatches (the meaning behind Angelus' opening monologue, for example). There are a couple points I want to mention. As you said in the reaction, what a great misdirection by the show to really put the fear into Buffy that Angelus would be the one to target and possibly kill her mom. It totally makes sense as that is how Angelus made Dru crazy prior to turning her. So, all this time everyone is understandably worried about Joyce, no one thinks about Jenny. After all, she's trying to redeem herself and reconcile with Giles, maybe her restoration of Angel's soul will be stopped but surely she wouldn't be killed. It shows the true evil of Angelus and, more importantly, it completely set BTVS the show apart from any other show on TV at the time in suddenly and violently killing off a main character. It raised the stakes (literally), showing that actions have real world and unintended consequences. Another point I'll say is how amazing Buffy is. She's my all time favorite TV character for a reason and it's largely due to SMG's astonishing acting. She had so many moments in this episode that were just incredible. Thor, you mention from the beginning of the show that it's incredible how much trauma Buffy endures on a nearly weekly basis and you really still the impact of that here. There's another subtler misdirection in the episode that I find heartbreaking. Buffy thought about and wanted to come clean to her mom about being a Slayer after two years. She was ready to do it but Giles talked her out of it to protect her identity. And yet, Angelus' decides to tell her mom that they slept together instead, something Buffy was utterly unprepared for. And for her mom to find out that her ex is dangerous and violent and say that she questions Buffy's judgement. And Buffy views Giles as basically her father, so the thought that her falling in love and having sex for the first (and only) time leads directly to the murder of her father's girlfriend. A murder that Buffy feels that she could have prevented if she had just done her duty as The Slayer and taken Angelus out instead of being ruled by her passions to try and save him. Thank of the lasting trauma that could inflict. It really is the episode that for me elevated it from an interesting, very good show to thinking it was one of the best shows ever.
Land Howard Johnston
2022-03-03 21:48:37 +0000 UTCHahaha I literally said "you mean the floppy disc?" at that part 😂 I never used it myself but they were definitely around my house as a kid. Good times :)
Effie
2022-03-03 21:30:49 +0000 UTC"is that the computer thing with the thing??" lol yes thats a floppy disc. us oldies used to use them to save computer files onto :p
x_Rhi_x
2022-03-03 20:34:07 +0000 UTCOn Vampires, they are only restricted on entering the homes of the living. They can can come and go as they please anywhere else. Like another commenter said Angelus was just messing with Jenny about the sign on the front of the school. They were also joking and placating Cordelia as far as her car being vulnerable to Angelus. Zander's line about how she's going to have to give Angelus and his buddies rides whenever they want was hilarious as was the part where Cordelia was willing to throw her own grandmother under the bus by switching cars not knowing it would have no effect lol. Really great episode and we got it a day early!
Adri
2022-03-03 20:09:38 +0000 UTCI love sharing this tidbit: Passion was the first whole episode of Buffy that I watched. I was 12 when Season 2 was airing and would check out Buffy sometimes when it came on after Dawson's Creek. But when I saw this episode, I was hooked. I didn't understand the gravity of Jenny's death, but I think I was drawn to the darkness of the show and my inner goth was released. I also thought Xander was funny.
Allison Wonderband
2022-03-03 20:03:36 +0000 UTCNope. Not one fan ever saw this coming. Why? Because at that time no other show had the courage to piss off their fans by killing off a beloved character. Reason number 128 why BTVS was a ground breaking show. Good reaction. I barely yelled STFU Thor at all LOL.
Allan Cornett
2022-03-03 19:29:04 +0000 UTCI've always found Giles line to Buffy about not giving into her passions was strange and probably an attempt by the writers to reference the name of the episode. She's being driven by justified fear. I guess it could be argued that her passion for Angel is amplifying her fear, but to me it's a stretch. Does anyone else find the line as confusing as I do?
Chris Mansfield
2022-03-03 19:26:50 +0000 UTCBe careful what you wish for, Thor. Evil has no half way haha. Plus a true villain commits and shows no mercy, so story wise I think it was necessary. It makes the threat of Angelus more real and it opens up even more philosophical questions about culpability which is always fun 😇
Effie
2022-03-03 18:43:06 +0000 UTCThor, I'm so glad you watched this episode solo. I really hope the S2 finale will be solo too. However, I agree with OP that it would be interesting to hear a quick discussion about this ep with Domi if you ever have time. I think she was inconsolable when she first saw this haha. I still tear up when Giles cries myself. Anyway, I'm off to watch this now. I'm so hyped! :)
Effie
2022-03-03 18:36:13 +0000 UTCDomi LOVES Miss Calendar so I'm sure you two will be talking about this. If you decided to record and upload the two of you gushing about this ep, I'd definitely watch it! :-) I don't think Spike was being stupid in holding Dru back... I think he was legit hoping Giles might take out his competition! The Spike-Angel relationship is fascinating to me. I don't remember if they showed us Angel going into Giles' place, but the episode does, very briefly, imply it, because when Giles stops by Buffy's house and talks to Willow (and Buffy and her mom are upstairs having a difficult conversation), it's to get the de-inviting spell book and supplies from Willow. Not that anyone is paying attention to that scene because it comes immediately after THE THING so your brain is just in shock. The vampire/demon/soul thing is complex, and I think you have it clear now but just in case this is helpful: when a person becomes a vampire, they die, their soul leaves, and a demon moves in. Angel's curse is that he got re-ensouled, so now he has a demon in him AND a soul/conscience to torment him with guilt. The curse went "poof" when Angel had a moment of true happiness, so his soul flitted away back to the ether. Jenny was hoping to re-ensoul him, but the demon inside isn't going anywhere.
FandomReferenceHere
2022-03-03 16:48:02 +0000 UTCThis episode made me ball my eyes out first time I saw it, I hated Angel so much with a "Passion" ;) LOL but for serious, I was so shocked when Miss Calendar died, it was hard to believe and yes unexpected. I was even kind of angry at Buffy for letting it happen as it were, when she wasnt really letting it happen, its just I felt so much pain for Giles in that moment that I was trying to find people to blame lol. Anyway this is a terribly brutal episode to watch but also one of my favourites because of the writing and element of surprise as well as the reminder of what vampires are truly like.
Eileen Furtado
2022-03-03 16:47:07 +0000 UTCTo explain the Angel and Angelus thing. The demon part/the vampire part is always there but when the soul is also there, the soul is the conscience so it is able to temper the demon that is still there and fight against temptation.
TheyCallMeJeff
2022-03-03 16:46:46 +0000 UTCI make a comment about Giles and Jenny too during this episode... little did I know...
Nicholas Crowell
2022-03-03 16:43:52 +0000 UTCOK that makes a lot more sense, I was thinking about School Hard afterwards too so that adds up... also, so in character for Angelus to be a drama queen really like that haha
Nicholas Crowell
2022-03-03 16:43:26 +0000 UTCOne of my favorite episodes so far for sure, even though I hated it...
Nicholas Crowell
2022-03-03 16:42:16 +0000 UTCI mean I wanted the villains to do better but Jenny?? that's just not fair haha
Nicholas Crowell
2022-03-03 16:41:53 +0000 UTCOh geez I felt so bad for you every time you expressed your love for Jenny. This is where the show I feel tells you exactly who it is. Now, it feels, no one is safe.
Kitty
2022-03-03 16:27:28 +0000 UTCSo, I think Angelus was just being a dick about the invitation to the school. There's no restriction on public buildings. They can go in the Bronze, they can go in a school. I think she was asking how he got in there based on the doors being locked not any restriction on vampires. He intentionally misread her question in order to be a drama queen and show off his Latin.
Keith Jones
2022-03-03 15:57:48 +0000 UTCYESS Im excited for this one
Eileen Furtado
2022-03-03 15:42:16 +0000 UTCOmg I was laughing so hard at that caption. All this time you’ve been criticising the villains for being incompetent and just when they step up their game you wanna quit? 😂😂 But I love it because it really raises the stakes. This is such a powerful episode and I cannot wait 😈 hahaha
Effie
2022-03-03 15:24:47 +0000 UTCOh God, we're finally here! I've been waiting for this reaction since you started watching Buffy. It's one of the most brutal episodes but I think the best of the show up to this point. I've seen it dozens of times over the years and it's still extraordinary. Watching immediately!
Land Howard Johnston
2022-03-03 15:03:01 +0000 UTC
