Japanese Phonetics Episode 42—LIVE (Updated with native recordings!)
Added 2018-05-22 00:24:45 +0000 UTCBibliography
Japanese Phonetics Index Page
Good morning Patrons! The forty-second episode of Japanese Phonetics, now updated with native recordings, is live! In this lesson we look at the S and Z sounds, exploring the more difficult 'し' in detail.
As always, if you have any questions or concerns with regards to this lesson, please don't hesitate to leave a comment below. Thank you very much for your continued support, and good luck with your Japanese studies!
Best from Beppu,
Dōgen
Comments
Hi, Supertimtendo. I haven't run into this myself. The only thing I can think of is this is could be an individual thing; It's not unheard of for a Japanese native to have a lisp or other mannerism when speaking.
Dogen
2025-04-14 07:07:57 +0000 UTCI've noticed some natives pronounce し with some sort of lisp, so closer to the english romaji "watasi" or "watathi". Any comment or further info on this? Thanks!
Supertimtendo
2025-04-12 16:32:28 +0000 UTCHi, Sashin. JP here. I'm pretty sure you asked this before the group lesson with Natsumi Sensei, where I think she answered your questions about し and also ひ. As she said in the lesson—you sound good. As I mentioned below, it seems like you're at a point where you'll benefit from some feedback for some of these finer points, whether that's in a one-on-one or a group lesson. がんばってください！
Dogen
2024-06-03 09:20:50 +0000 UTCHi, Renaud. JP here. I didn't get a notification for your comment. I'm really sorry for such a late reply. I asked Kimi Sensei for her thoughts, and was part of her thoughts: "You need to relax your tongue more. Say い, and with the same mouth position, exhale the air forward and try to make the sound kind of like 'sh'. In that way, your pronunciation of し will get much closer to the native し." It might help to try the tips Dōgen gives in the video starting around 5:09, including getting ready to say the sound and sharply inhaling. I hope this helps, and best of luck in your future studies!
Dogen
2024-06-03 09:16:43 +0000 UTCHi, Sashin! JP here. I didn't get notifications for these comments. My apologies for not replying sooner. I saw you got some feedback on this from Natsumi Sensei during the group lesson. It sounds like you're at a point in your progress where you could really benefit from live feedback from someone like Natsumi Sensei. If possible, consider signing up for a private lesson. If that's a challenge, definitely join in on the next group lesson. Even though the next lesson will have a main topic, she plans to take some questions if time permits. You're doing well; keep it up!
Dogen
2024-06-03 09:04:32 +0000 UTCSorry, I've been commenting a lot recently, I'm in no rush for a response though! What about しょ and しゅ does the tongue position differ much from し?
Sashin Exists
2024-05-20 21:34:29 +0000 UTCI don't think I have really good spatial awareness with my tongue. I can't seem to map the sensations in my mouth to a mental image of my tongue position. With し is it okay for the tip of the tongue to be pressed up against the bottom of my lower teeth? I feel like if it's not touching, it's almost like I don't know where my tongue is. This seems to be the hardest sound for me in the set.
Sashin Exists
2024-05-18 01:11:12 +0000 UTCI am having a hard time with this one. Is it normal the sides of my tongue touch my teeth when I say し? I feel like I need to blow a ton of air for the sound to be as sharp as the examples, a lot more air than if I used the tongue placement for the English "sh".
Renaud Bernier
2024-03-01 05:39:35 +0000 UTCHi, Carson. JP here, Dōgen's business partner. I'm helping manage the messages here on Patreon. Dōgen created the graphics on his own in Affinity Designer, using information and diagrams from the various resources he used in developing the course. —JP
Dogen
2022-11-17 23:53:00 +0000 UTCWhere do you get the diagrams/pictures for the mouth position for each sound from? I have been trying to find some.
Carson Render
2022-11-17 06:55:54 +0000 UTCI also wanna point out that a lot of native English speakers have started pronouncing the "str" cluster with the ɕ sound, like street, straight, strong, etc! I've observed this both among American and British speakers, but I haven't read much literature about it yet. I just thought you might find it interesting too 😅
Patrick Auri
2021-09-15 20:34:42 +0000 UTCI found that people with lisp pronouncing 'si' end up with good Japanese 'し' )
Strange Guy
2020-09-21 11:49:02 +0000 UTCHi Madeline! I'm not sure if is the same, but it may be worth mentioning that for some native Japanese speakers し and ひ are interchangeable, which points to the fact that し is slightly further back in the mouth than the English 'sh'. Most people don't have too much trouble with the ひ sound, so one thing that you can try and do is to make the し sound, but think of it as similar to ひ; try starting with the ひ sound, but then slightly move the tongue forward until you can no longer hear a distinct 'H' sound, but also stop before making the more forward English 'sh' sound. Do you mind trying this to see if it helps? Also remember not to round or protrude the lips in し！
Dogen
2020-09-09 06:10:08 +0000 UTCHi Dogen! I was wondering if you've ever heard if the Mandarin 'Xi' pronunciation is the same or similar to 'し’? I've been treating them the same since the beginning, but after watching this video I'm not so sure and am wondering if I need to retrain. Thank you!
Madeline Chen
2020-09-08 21:40:40 +0000 UTCGlad to hear that you found it helpful, Trevor!
Dogen
2020-07-01 05:13:53 +0000 UTCWow, this one got me haha. Somehow I've managed to go about a year pronouncing し as simply a sharper version of the English 'sh' but with the tip of the tongue more aggressively pressed toward the alveolar ridge and edged up more towards the front teeth. Guess it's time for some tongue retraining, thanks for the tips! Awesome lesson!
Trevor Walden
2020-07-01 02:35:31 +0000 UTCHi Neko-chan. As far as I'm aware the word initial し and the し found in the middle of words are identical; that is to say the し sound that's in the middle of the word should not be pronounced like the other S sounds. Apologies for not being able to help more with this—I haven't run into this issue before!
Dogen
2020-06-30 11:22:16 +0000 UTCHi Dogen! Thank you so much for your phonetics series. After taking this lesson I think I've still got difficulty with Japanese shi sound. I think that my しsound is correct in the beginning of a word. However, I feel the し sounds weird and un-native in the middle, for example in common verbs しま-し-た 食べま-し-た 歩きま-し-た. I've been listening native recordings and recording myself but I feel that the し in the middle of a word is what I still haven't understood and which makes me sound very foreign. Should it be pronounced as normal し as you taught or more like common s like in さ、す、せ、そ? I would appreciate your answer. Cheers!
Nekochan
2020-06-30 09:50:36 +0000 UTCThat's quite interesting, I'm not familiar with German so I wasn't aware! Glad to hear you're getting so much out of the series—Cheers!
Dogen
2020-05-04 03:51:56 +0000 UTCHi Dogen, a german learner here. I noticed that in germany we put the tip of our tongue behind our lower front teeth while pointing the tongue down to produce the s sound. It's kinda hard to describe actually. (At least everyone i asked to check did so as well.) I guess this difference will also help in aquiring a "japanese mindset" while speaking. Btw. i really appreciate your lessons and youtube videos. They are really eye opening. They got me back into learning japanese. So thanks.
Darkarotte
2020-05-03 19:18:13 +0000 UTCHi Tim! I actually think Genki is perfect for shadowing, but if you'd like some additional content then using Orange Days would be good too, especially the bits in which the speakers talk somewhat slow (the sign-language bits). Hope this helps! Cheers
Dogen
2019-12-03 00:35:02 +0000 UTCHi Dogen. After watching this video I finally realized how important practicing shadowing is as I'm struggling with the し sound and vowels among other things. I've been listening to オレンジデズ for a few months now, and I'm currently on chapter 3 of Genki 1. I've been recording myself doing the speaking exercises, but I'm not sure if they're enough. Are there any better shadowing resources that you recommend? Thanks!
Tim McCarthy
2019-12-02 23:29:48 +0000 UTCHi! Glad to hear you found it useful. This may be a voicing issue. It may help to try saying the し sound without the い vowel. So, kyōshtsu or kaigishtsu. Hope this helps!
Dogen
2018-05-30 00:57:20 +0000 UTCHi, This lesson was very helpful. I'm having problems pronouncing a つ sound after it comes a し sound. Like in 教室、会議室 and 事務室.
Mr Mano
2018-05-29 03:08:49 +0000 UTCNo worries! Incidentally I made a mistake in this video when talking about the 'z' sounds. These are actually affricates in the word initial position. The pronunciation of the native speaker is correct, but I didn't explain them the correct way (we actually create a stop followed by a fricative for these sounds), so I'll be addressing this very soon in an updated video! Apologies and good luck with your studies!
Dogen
2018-05-24 04:26:06 +0000 UTCInteresting. I didn't realize there was no 'sh' sound in Portuguese!
Dogen
2018-05-24 04:24:31 +0000 UTCThis was super helpful, Dogen! I noticed fairly early on that there was a slight difference between sh and し, but for the life of me I couldn't figure out how to reproduce it! I still need plenty of practice, but this has really helped. Thanks so much!
Nathan Vegdahl
2018-05-23 07:00:13 +0000 UTCJust wanted to say that I was wandering about the same thing, so if your ears are tricking you I’m being tricked by mine :)
オレクシイ
2018-05-22 16:55:59 +0000 UTCI noticed that the example recording for [ʑ] sounded very much like an affricate. Now, I already know that [ʑ] and [dʑ] are not distinguished by many japanese speakers (and I assume you’re going to comment on that at one point or another as well) but I found it a bit curious as a chosen recording, especially after the comment hat the only difference is voicing. Or are my ears playing a trick on me?
Sascha Baer
2018-05-22 14:20:05 +0000 UTCHaha, I'm a Brazilian Japanese and for me it was more difficult to do the sh sound than the し。
Alecryn
2018-05-22 00:44:21 +0000 UTC
