atomic bomb: backer version

I disagree. A good friend of mine told me the trolley problem story only a few weeks ago and I didn’t know the history well enough to object (even though it ‘felt’ wrong). It’s good to know what the story told is and who is telling it. Sent him the video link. 😄

Very good video.

I'm a bit unsure on the inclusion of PragerU in this video. I feel like the video stands strongly on its own and provides a great overview of the topic. Adding a "PragerU is wrong about something" to it doesn't do it justice I think, despite how funny the "this was a prageru response video all along" joke was. I agree with the importance of acknowledging popular narratives on the topic but I think it can also be done by excluding PragerU from the marketplace of ideas for once.

I recognize that this might be a bit late... sorry.

Hi Shaun, great Video! I really enjoy watching (and especially listening to) your Vids, not least because it improves my english-comprehension as a german. You have a very clear, articulate and unique way of presenting things and I admire that. Just a minor point concerning the 'moral bombing' part: While your argumentation is valid, it is perhaps unprecise in one point. Being a german antifascist, it sounds a bit weird to hear the german civillians being called "innocent". It resembles a german rightwing myth that the large population only 'cooperated' with the 'Hitler-regime' because it was a police state and not from conviction. That is the bottom line of those people who want to restore the image of the “decent” (anständig) germans. And I'm not saying that there were no innocents being exposed to the bombing or that the bombing therefore ist justified which it is not as you showed. For example Viktor Klemperer, a german Jew and Linguist who was forced to labour in the war industry in Dresden was close to being killed by the bombing and of course there were many more. The point is that the third Reich was far more than a police state that forced its population to participate - Hitler was elected after all and for example Viktor Klemperer analyzed the language-shifts that the germans underwent by committing to the Führer-principle as a emphasizing and fundamental part of itself.This commitment to the Führer and the whole antisemitic ideology clearly involved that a potential opposition would not be able to express themselves because the larger part of the germans would hand them to the police-institutions. It was german ‘civillians’ that lead the gestapo to their jewish neighbors and took their furniture and so on. But it is quite a thing that there was no significant resistance in germany compared to the occupied areas (this might be disputed, I know). There was a recent study that found that in contemporary german family narratives the number of germans, who helped the jews, is larger than the number of jews that lived in germany in 1939. So it is a minor point but I thought it might be interesting for you to consider it, as you said there were some minor parts that might need to be checked. Excuse my unprecise and flawed english, especially the comma setting. Greetings from Kassel

Timestamps in the description might be a good addition since this vid is nearly as long as the bell curve vid

Here's a idea Shaun. Upload this to youtube as soon as you can and just leave the title as "bom" lololol

Soi Born

Loved it! I joined your patreon and then you promptly took a month off - you’re totally forgiven if this is what you were working on this whole time (and even if you weren’t tbh). I don’t really have any suggestions except that the bit about Stalin getting the message from Japan and then just ignoring it made me think ‘left them on read’ - not sure if that’s your style though. Wonderfully nuanced and thoughtful video, thank you.

Angie

I became a $5 dollar patron just so I could watch this video. Always liked your videos!

excellent video, loved it, well-argued and researched! short (peevy, pedantic) note (i'm german i can't help myself i'm truly sorry): the unconditional surrender of nazi germany was signed on may 7th but officially went into effect may 8th, which is why may 8th is usually used as the date of nazi germany's defeat / end (may 8th was a national holiday in east germany called "Tag der Befreiung" (day of liberation), for example). it's not really a big deal, but moving the icon on the calendar over by one may avoid some confusion (if only with pedantic german audiences). loved it otherwise <3

A purely functional boring comment cuz I'm not done watching yet! Just wanna say that your sentence cuts off abruptly at 13:50ish! Sounds like "I wonder if that's gonna cause any problems down the li-"

VoidBurger

Amazing work as usual! Has anybody tried their hotdog with a little lemon and soy sauce? It's my new jam!

Skibbityboo

also my history teacher in New Zealand taught me the Prager U version of events so that is scary lol

this an immense video and the ending is perfect and focuses on the real war that has been waged for so many years now / the class war. one critique is the repetition inherent in some of the responses to that Prager U video

this was a fantastic video! very well done.

Absolutely brilliant. Will be showing this to my dad.

Jasper Jane

Why isn't this as long as the Bell Curve video? Needs a good 30 more minutes I would say. Sorry if this would be a problem.

Thanks for the video. I admit my first reaction to your tweets about the common narrative being that the bombings were totally justified was "What!?!?!"; dunno if it's Iceland or just my peace-loving parents who took me to memorial events about the bombings every year, but my impression had always been that the bombings were obviously a horrific crime against humanity. But I learned a whole lot about the background and leadup to it here that I didn't know before, and I hope it reaches some people who believed the PragerU narrative.

antialiasis

Thank you for sharing! I am still watching and will post more feedback if I have any :) Around 14:26, you say that Germany was "forced to accept unconditional surrender by the Allies," but I think it would be clearer if you said "forced by the Allies to accept unconditional surrender"

This is very nice. When next month rolls around I will send to all my relatives as an early Christmas gift.

There are quite a few dates you mention which do not show up on your calendar. There are a lot of minor dates that probably do not need to stay on the calendar, but it would be good if you showed the date you're talking about on the screen while you are talking about them.

Zaira H

As someone who lived their childhood behind the Iron Curtain I can add one thing - the bombs not only failed to scare the USSR, they handed them a perfectly valid reason for villyfying the USA and the whole West. The propaganda did not even need to lie about these bombings to paint USA as the bad guys - we were taught both that Japan was an imperialistic power AND that the use of atomic bombs on civilian population by the USA was a heinous war crime.

Karel Bartoš

I realise this is going to be incredibly unhelpful but it might be easier for you to find it than for me: at one point, probably in the last half hour of the video I think you say 'should've went' instead of 'should've gone'. Great vid, I've felt for a while that the justifications for all that mass bombing + the a-bombs were pretty dodge and whataboutish.

Walkersward (Adam)

The only formal education I got on the Atomic bombs was at the end of primary school (11 years old) and it was not very thorough. We got barely any reasoning beyond "Japan refused to surrender" although we did get a considerable amount of time spent on excoriating detail on the effects of the bomb on the civilian population including some first-hand accounts read to us. It was definitely a weird dynamic of not really talking about the why but also making sure to describe the sheer horror of what took place so I never had a full picture of the events. From that point on I never really read much into it myself and had always maintained that nuclear warfare was just unquestionably evil and unnecessary in all circumstances (I guess the first-hand accounts definitely had an impact) but all I had was a moral position and had to grapple with what I believed to be the evidence that it was necessary to "end the war" when it happened. To that end I want to thank you for providing me with the knowledge that not only was it a morally reprehensible act regardless of tactical value but it served zero tactical value as well. I know these videos must take a lot out of you to create and you definitely deserve a period of rest after this. It honestly makes a difference and I always come away feeling more educated than I did going in :)

the way that juuust the line with the names of the months from the calender was visible between the two parts of the document at 42:53 was a it visually confusing for me. but this is obviously just a nitpick! i greatly enjoiyed the video (i feel bad saying it like that because of the topic but, you know) and I learned a lot. thank you!

wendigotypes

Well, as long as you feel OK about it, that's all that matters.

gridsleep

This is a really good video. I was in the camp of thinking the casualties-of-invasion was the argument used. I did not know that this was an after-the-fact invention, so this video, as always, taught me something new. Two points, though: Your calendar is good, but the choice of which events get a mark and not was a bit distracting. I get you want the most important events, but then I think you shouldn't mention specific dates for events that don't get a mark, e.g. opting instead for just mentioning the month or a relative timespan ("a week after Potsdam"). Also, at 1:44, you say "the Japanese leadership was beaten". Don't you mean "the Japanese military was beaten" in this context?

Nicolai Nielsen

Good video, although I did notice that Hitler's death is missing from the calendar after you mention it.

Marigold Lloyd Cameron

It's a very well done video, but I don't know if it has changed my opinion at all. I went in thinking "the dropping of the a-bombs were based on flawed thinking about morale bombing, the Soviet Union's entry into the war probably did more to end the war, and if the Allies had just implied they would keep the Emperor after the war, that would've saved more lives than any hypothetical number saved by preventing an invasion." and that's not really changed. You did convince me the leadership didn't think an invasion of Japan would be necessary, but I do think that argument had flaws. For instance there were casualty estimates and planning for an invasion at the time, just not the incredibly high post war estimates. And the lower estimates made during the war were flawed and underestimating the numbers. I guess I can't feel too bad about it if the people making the decisions at the time thought they were doing the best thing by dropping the bomb, even if their reasoning was actually "if we kill enough civilians, the war will end more quickly and the Soviets won't get involved" instead of "if we kill enough civilians, we won't have to invade Japan"

just a small note as i'm watching: around 00:08:15 you put images on each calendar day you mention except the appointment of Burns as secretary on 7/3. thanks for the video!!

Connor Freer

Fantastic and well worth the wait. A small suggestion I'd make is that it might be worth stressing the degree to which US high command were informed on what the Japanese were planning and thinking. One of the smarter bad faith arguments you see for the use of the bombs goes along the line of "Sure with hindsight we might know that Japan was desperate to surrender but Truman had to act with limited information."

Ctolm

Fucked up when Churchill gets quoted in a vid and comes off as the voice of reason. I think my final takeaway here is "fuck just about every involved on both sides".

Jae Armstrong

Around the 20 minute mark when you're quoting messages sent by the japanese ambassador, pulling up the text of the message would be nice.

I apologize if this is a naïve or simple addition, but I feel the addition of U.S. deliberation of dropping an additional bomb on Nagasaki would be very interesting and important to the narrative. The dropping of a second bomb was still a massive precedent to set which showed an extension of the U.S. atomic capability and I think it isn't talked about enough in this. From what I understand, they were already planning a second bomb when the first one was dropped, and I think this would create an interesting discussion that could bolster the narrative. As always though, great video Shaun! :)

Love it. One suggestion: You may already be planning on doing this, but if it's possible/practical I think a 'key' in the YouTube video description listing key persons and their positions may be helpful. The calendar is a really handy visual and makes it so much easier to keep track of where we're at in terms of order of events, but there are still a lot of folks and their jobs to keep track of so I think a list of the key players to refer to as you watch would be neat. Great job on the video, fascinating and infuriating stuff

Lucy Welch

I love your all substance no style style.

Liam Kofi Bright

at 13:53 the line read isn't quite complete. The phrase "down the line" sounds like "down the lie" because it cuts a bit too soon

Hey there! So my internet is shithouse so idk if my previous comment showed up but in case it didn’t — 1) I LOVE the use of diagrams and pictures to help remember the details. Possibly the best use of visuals in a video essay I’ve seen — not distracting, and also clarifying things. I think it could also work in future videos, maybe? 2) I would personally find it easier to follow if there was a summary of the general arguments towards the beginning. While it might now work/be too difficult to do, given that it seems like this video isn’t so much structured in a “argument 1 argument 2 argument 3” way (and that completely works for the context!), I still think an initial summary of the rough “sections” would help me personally follow along better? All good if that doesn’t work for you that’s just my opinion! 3) I absolutely LOVE the video and it is the best treatment of this subject that I personally have found! While admittedly I haven’t studied it, I still think that this is more detailed, accurate, and fair than any of the various sources my limited experience with the topic has found. 4) Please keep in mind that I have relatively bad memory/attention, have so far only watched the video once, and also am very sleep deprived, so my feedback might not be helpful/accurate. If so, I’m sorry! These were just my first impressions. Amyway you did a great job and yeah!

Aless

Shaun, you should write a book. It would be a Times bestseller.

gridsleep

I would not be surprised if The Simpsons' Mr. Burns, head of nuclear power in town, was named in honor of Secretary Burns.

gridsleep

bureaucrats

gridsleep

Just FYI, WWII is directly and indirectly responsible for the deaths of 50,000,000 people. No telling how many kittens and puppies and budgies.

gridsleep

of the Harris Bomber I was expecting tbh

Andrew Cross

Fat Man and Little Boy were atomic bombs, not nuclear bombs. A nuclear bomb is by definition a hydrogen fusion bomb, which was invented years after World War II. An atomic bomb is a much simpler uranium or plutonium fission device.

gridsleep

The US had cracked Purple month before the attack on Pearl Harbor. We knew the attack on Pearl Harbor was going to happen, when, and how. It is why the five aircraft carriers were out to sea with no task force (unheard of) and the harbor was filled with old ships that were going to be retired anyway. Pearl Harbor was allowed to be attacked to get the US over our pacifist stance and into the war, just as the World Trade Center was allowed to be attacked to give the US an excuse to attack Iraq which had nothing to do with it. It had all been decided by the Bush family and their friends in Saudi Arabia, who really pulled it off.

gridsleep

So, the bombs were for Russia's benefit. That is, showing Stalin what the US could there, and anywhere else we chose. Capisce?

gridsleep

Interesting the strong parallels between Trump and the MAGA Trumpezoids, and Japan and the the subjects of their Emperor, and the applied excuse that neither will quit their delusional loyalty.

gridsleep

As George Carlin said about the US existing to drop bombs on brown people, when explaining why we dropped bombs on white people in Germany, that Germany was trying to exterminate all the brown people, and the US had to step in and emphasise "Fuck you! That's OUR job!"

gridsleep

Einstein wrote to Roosevelt about the idea of spraying plutonium powder over a city. I guess he hadn't yet wrapped his mind around being able to control the chain reaction process the way Oppenheimer did. Also, when he did posit a bomb, he figured a boat would be needed because it would be too heavy for an airplane. To his credit, theoretical and practical are two different physics.

gridsleep

My favorite line: "That's their day job." I might suggest that you think about including some of Jesse Berg's insights. He seems to know his military history. Also, not sure if it's worth including (and if it's in the video and I missed it, apologies), but the fire bombing of Tokyo killed about as many people as each of the nuclear bombs. I didn't realize this until my husband pointed it out after I told him about your video. And finally, I like that you point out the racism motive. There are people in the U.S. today who still think of Japanese people as barbarians based on things like the "Bataan death march" (and of course, many of those same people think of Andrew Jackson as a hero for submitting Native Americans to the "Trail of Tears").

Kathy G

while I would want to make a grand point about you reconsidering your point about Dresden, I have a more urgent observation: at ~1:49:30, you talk about how the Japanese military wanted 'their' civilians to die in a different way, saying that they wanted them to rush US military "with bamboo sticks" -- since I'm pretty sure that your video is extensively researched, I would make sure to include a citation for that. Otherwise, it could be construed as you saying that the Japanese were 'primitive savages who fight with sticks', even though that, clearly, is not what you're saying at all.

It's very eery to hear this being told by a skull. I enjoyed the twist as a relaxing moment of levity, but the return to the somber tone felt like the proper gravity for the subject. I can't wait to get to share this video.

Kat

Excellent video. The emphasis on the timeline is extremely eye-opening. I admittedly found the calendar hard to read at times, but the on-screen date indicator sounds like it will help. Miniscule point, but I really appreciate the refreshingly good take on the Kurile question at 1:37:50. Great work! I look forward to sharing it for years.

illves

The historical analysis is really interesting, I can't imagine learning this stuff organically. The way you explain the timeline of the Japanese deliberation is very good from a narrative standpoint.

Wow, this was really fascinating! ...also, like, is it just me or, like, is every single person in this story a total monster?

Dragon Cobolt

At 58:00 you say June 18th but I think it's meant to be July 18th

Ok, I realize you're unlikely to change your central thesis, because I think it's wrong. So let me give you a simple factual error before I try to give you something to think about, anyway. First of all, the factual error: At around the 48:00 mark you refer to the Air Force. The US Air Force was founded in 1947, and did not exist during WWII. Now, I don't think you're doing this deliberately, but I do think you are taking people at their word when it supports your thesis, and dismissing them when they disagree with you. My main example would be that you accept Truman's diaries as if they were actually written at the time, and as if they accurately portray his views, as he had them, but then turn around and dismiss his Secretary of State as a liar. These were both career politicians, nothing they published should be taken as more honest than it needed to be. It is, arguably, far more telling that planning for the ground invasion of Japan continued until Japan surrendered, and bomber command was continuing to plan for additional nuclear strikes until Truman stopped them after Nagasaki. Nobody told the War Department that the bombs were going to end the war, and plans were, incredibly to our eyes, drawn up to drop A-bombs on the landing beaches directly infront of allied landing forces, that were still very much being prepared. Another issue with taking people at their word revolves around the interservice rivalries in the US Military. WWII was the first war where the US did not essentially get rid of its military afterwards. All the branches of the US Armed Forces were expecting major reductions in force after the war, and wanted to make sure those cuts were made primarily in other services. The Navy, whom you quoted in your opening, were determined to prove that it was the naval blockade that had beaten Japan, and that the US needed to keep its fleets at full strength. The Army Air Corp (whose wartime leaders would go on to found the Air Force shortly thereafter) were determined to prove that it was strategic bombing that had beaten Japan, and that the US needed modern airplanes, not outdated boats, to keep it safe. Both groups thought that the other should be sold for scrap, and both were determined that the nukes (which could be delivered by a single plane or ship) couldn't have had anything to do with Japan's surrender. In my experience, most people get this incident at least partially wrong. The right (as usual) declares that it had to be right and just and a good and glorious thing. But many on the left also screw up on this topic, reacting so harshly to right's jingoism, that they end up insisting that it had to have been an evil action. In reality, to the best I've been able to determine, it was a case where there were too many things people in power didn't know, but should have anf thought they did. While yes, Truman's anti-Comunist bias came in to play, and he could have won without the bombs if he'd just waited, that's hindsight talking. Within the bounds of what he knew at the time, which by his actions did not include that the war would end anytime soon, he made the decision, or failed to make any other decision, that/because it made the most sense at the time. It's easy for us looking back to forget how narrow people's view of the world could be, especially given how wide our view of the world has become. American and British politicians didn't understand how little a role public opinion played in a fascist state, and Imperial Buracrats didn't understand how great a role public opinion played in a Democratic Republic. This seems obvious to us in hindsight, but at the time these were new ideas for these people. There wasn't anything nobel or cartooonishly evil in any of these leaders, just confused people failing to communicate properly and getting a lot of people killed. The single saving grace, which has nothing to do with the morality of the decision and cannot have factored in to whether it should have happened or not, is that Hiroshima and Nagasaki will be with us throughout the rest of our time as a species, as a reminder of why we should never use these weapons again. I shudder to think of what Kennedy and Khrushchev might have done if they hadn't had the photos of the aftermath to consider during the Missile Crisis.

Jesse Berg

Was Bomber Harry how Hbomber got his name? BTW all of calendar and graphics in this video was 100% needed for a person like me. I just cant keep all of these dates in order in these historical stories without actual pictures. Thanks for these efforts. Great video.

shaun 2016: responds to TL;DR shaun 2020: responds to the US military

The idea it was a necessary show of force is just outrageous and really a red herring. The Air Force had already shown itself to be capable of inflicting this scale of casualties by firebombing with near impunity. I found Revisionist Histories season 5 and episodes 4-7 covering this to be incredibly informative. Anyway, subbed for this after watching for a long time. Keep doing what you do Shaun.

Great video. Will definitely need to listen again to absorb all that detail. Please don’t turn your Patreon off for a month. I’m happy to continue supporting while you take a break.

thank you so much for this video. as someone with a grandmother who was in hiroshima at the time & lost a young sister there, i’m really grateful for such clear & accessible content that explains the lie behind the propaganda americans get fed since birth that might change a few people’s minds. if there are any critiques i have it’s just that it might be worth including a couple images of racial war propaganda & the like (“exterminating rats” etc) when you mention the factor of racism in the decision. besides that nothing substantial to point out (tw for death. sorry if this is uncomfortable to post here - i don’t usually comment on anything but i wanted to express my thoughts somewhere besides a public youtube video bc that sounds like a nightmare) it means a lot to me to get this out to people, bc it’s a very personal issue for me & many others. the trolley problem version of this history isn’t just a popular belief among individuals where i live, it was what was in my history textbook in high school in california. i remember being asked to stand up in class & read my bachan’s account of finding her sister’s ruined body after confiding in the teacher that she had written such, as a part of a class “debate” about the correctness of using the bombs. i was 16 & i’d already been to the peace museum with my family, i knew about gov’t officials’ notes regarding it being unnecessary, i’d seen my bachan’s sister mana’s name on a memorial, & it made me sick to my stomach when, even after i was forced to tell a bunch of bored white teenagers about my bachan at age 16 bringing her 12 year old sister’s body back with her in a children’s wagon, all but 2 students - including me - voted at the end of the day that dropping the bombs was the right thing to do. it’s hard to constantly be confronting how deep some state propaganda is, but it hits me again every time the subject comes up & understanding the futility of the bombs + the horrific consequences for the civilians affected by them turns out, again, to be a fringe opinion compared to every single other person around me who thinks the nukes were awesome & will tell me so quite proudly. sorry again if this is strangely personal &/or gruesome to drop on a patreon post - i just want you to know i appreciate how long & hard you worked on presenting this issue considerately & without prejudice; it’s important work in many ways. i’m actually very uncertain abt posting this kind of personal message semi-publicly but i feel like it’s, maybe, something worth sharing

hype hype hype

Bob Mitchem

Very very good video. Incredibly long! But very good. And that conclusion statement is powerful.

i like how Shaun says ‘says’. my parents would not be pleased with this video. but what are you gonna do

Stateside Reds

Excellent work! I feel so educated now. I started the video with the idea that I'll watch like a half an hour and then go to sleep but then the video suddenly ended. Can't even think of any improvements except maybe towards the end when you list the reasons there could be a visual for the list.

sssilppuri

You pick these subjects that make me think at the start of the video, "oh this is just history nerd stuff, probably won't be too relevant to today". *Spongebob french guy voice*: 2 Hours later "How are we still falling for government excuses for war crimes?" Hopefully your next video is just 2 hours of continuously repeating "Hey Americans, your school system has always lied to you about your country's history."

Spoodle

Hi, just noticed you mispronounced Gallup polls as a 'gaul-up' poll (1:09:35). Just a small thing. Really great and eye opening video otherwise.

Suren Perera

Small audio error at 13:52, line gets cut off when the image switches

Rachel Heiderscheidt

Became a Patron just for this video. Excited for the experience and thankful for this creator <3

This is good stuff Shaun. Difficult to watch in parts but I have no doubt this will have a positive impact on certain groups. Thanks for being so consistently accessible.

Time to get incredibly high and play stellaris with your video on. You do incredibly important work with these videos. I imagine this video will help with dismantling some long lived and too loved american exceptionalism

It's here! Exciting

aismallard

Don't you dare change the title for the final video.

Henry R. Seymour

The lemurs rejoice

Corran MacCorran

Oh my god is this really happening

gusbordel

AHHHHHHHH I'VE BEEN WAITING SO LONG FOR THIS I CAN'T WAIT TO WATCH