Proof of Life #155: Putting emphasis on believability.
Added 2022-11-28 22:48:28 +0000 UTCHey there, sirs and ladies, and a good morning/afternoon/evening to you! It's ya boi, N_Taii, with another Monday PoL meant to bring folks happiness and fulfillment, and on the side a few info on last week's progress.
I spent my time on the main story, basically. I added another Triple Trident opponent + another BGM for the card game, but the rest of my time has been dedicated to polishing the build-up leading up to Cyanna's first NTR event and official start of her NTR/corruption storyline.
One of the two main complaints NTR games usually get is 1)they lack believability, 2)the women don't fight back enough. It always seem a bit unfair since other non-NTR games aren't really any more believable yet don't get half the critics, but hey, I still take them to heart. While I try to add some fighting back, most of the NTR in HC3 revolves around the heroines not being forced into it, but agreeing to it by themselves, so there's only so much resistance on their part I can add. However, what I'm trying to do is to have it make sense, not like: bad guy-"your BF owes me 20$ dollars. If you're willing to ruin both your lives, I'll make the debt go away", girl-"you evil person, of course I'll do it! when do we start?" kind of thing. That's obviously an exaggeration, but it's something that tends to be recurrent to a certain extent in NTR games (especially in shorter games, but that's understandable, as they don't have as much time to spend on the build-up).
So, for Cyanna's corruption to make sense, I spent the entire week adding one whole segment a bit like the military camp part (for those who've already played through it), but far smaller. I could have done without it, to be honest, but I found it really important to add this last touch of realism before things start to get serious. It should make things more impactful, and I hope you'll agree with me once you play it.
No spoilers though, so I'll stop now for this PoL. I could add more, but sometimes, less is best, and I've got to go back to working on the game^^
As always, thank you for reading through it, and have a wonderful week!
N_taii
Comments
No worries focus on the game
Jack Dorsey
2022-12-13 21:25:11 +0000 UTCHey! Thanks a lot for the extensive feedback. I've read it, and want to adress a few points. I'm a bit busy with development right now, so I hope you don't mind if I do it at a later date?
N_taii
2022-12-12 16:34:39 +0000 UTCHey, N_Taii, first I would like to thank you for your hard work and dedication towards the development of the game. Second, I would like to apologize for the following wall of text that is about to ensue. I am quite passionate about this project and had a few thought throughout playing first update: 1. First, I know from your previous work in HC and HC2 you understand that build up in the players head is really important. Mostly, for a story like this to work you have build the relationships not only between your cast but between the player and the cast. But your problem is that people that play this game already come in to it with prior knowledge of the genre / its main plot devices that’s why keeping it fresh and original really helps. Your players being spoiled before even playing have to incorporate some kind of suspension of disbelief to get surprised where the events are heading towards, or actually get their expectations subverted which would lead to more satisfying pay off. I would focus on the build up the most. Every single player knows the end point. The journey itself and not “what?” is going to happen but “how?” is it going to happen is the most intriguing part. 2. I’m sure you understand that the bigger/better the set up (as you’ve done this in HC2)- the more the MC/player gets invested into the characters which in turn means better and harder fall/payoff/emotional impact. Teasing the player could be even more effective. (Partial POV is a great addition but it could be even taken further). Without showing straight up intercourse character narrative/cheating part and the deconstruction of their expectations happens in the players heads. The player has to get attached and invested, the emotion is what’s important. People get attached to characters through - experiencing victories and overcoming hardships, these elicit emotions that bring the player/MC and the character together. (Here is my first fault, the commander dying to the ant queen is a great move since it removes authority from the cities guard and Cyanna is left to take the lead which creates a power vacuum, but, the main character getting saved by Cyanna would’ve been more impactful since it’s a hardship that is overcome together, plus the player would feel indebt to her. Now the commander could’ve been removed in another way but lets not linger on that. My point was that memories / attachment gets made through two or more characters going through something difficult and overcoming it together. 3. Power creep - next problem of stories like this is once sex happens there is quite a few limitations that appear narrative wise, your main adjustments that can be made is the girls submissivness and attachment (corruption levels), and settings/enviroments where it happens. This is why a slow start is a really good thing, I see that you’re a clever writer and know that proper set up is really important plus variation in scenario is whats keeps the fantasy going ( I’ve seen plenty of great examples in HC2 where variations are different enough and the plot develops at the same time the characters develop their ralationships ) . Like I’ve said before, to not go into ridicilious territories at the end to elicit a shock/surprise - the start has to be low enough and the tempo slow enough - that when it’s turned up to the max it doesnt clip through the cieling and becomes ridicilious. General ideals for narrative story telling: 1. Goals and motivations - clear goals and motivations are important for both the good guys and the bad guys but my favourite stories is where the bad guys are pretty simmiliar in their goals/reaches or in a so called “gray area” . A character arc so interesting that some readers might even agree with the bad guys or not see their ideas/actions as trivial to move the plot. Setting up a hated character or a tribe is easy. Setting up a morally dubious and gray character is what would make the story more “believable”. Main advice would be putting not only the good guys in the dirt but the bad guys as well, make both sides grey where its so confusing that their morals and motivatiosn are questioned, this would give precedence for their actions and give you the “beleavability” that everybody wants. Best way would be if nobody is wrong or right and both might be right but the character has to pick a “side”. (that’s why I’ve loved your revenge ending in HC2) 1. Show don’t tell / clues - Most of the NTR happens in our minds only, usually its more exciting knowing that its happening without witnessing it. Only seeing the aftermath, or not even that, just leaving the idea of it. (I know that it’s an overused trope but there are ways of being original about it). Being suble, is what gives the story flexability and tension. It also decreases the narrative/power creep that might happen if the advances are too sudden, so the reader doesn’t get a whiplash reaction, ther has to be enough hints to suspect it or the reader can ignore it until the last second, it’s his choice. (A great example of this would be that Cyanne has to do task and she asks us to to help her, but we get called to another task that we care about ,let’s say the priest needs help, while we’re doing the priest’s task we know/suspect in the back of our minds that something wrong might be happening, but were not sure - this is where the bait and switch technique could be used, that feeling of tension and dread is what should be built every story beat, plus the character has to feel helpless since it’s a choice that he made, then the blame shifts from the girl to the MC. ((making the MC blame himself for what happened is also a great technique because it switches the blame factor and the player feels like its his fault). Then, watching the scenes gives greater release, since you experienced actual stress that the MC feels, which in turn gives better immersion. If we are given a reason to suspect it, we raise the bar higher. Let’s say - NPC rumors, leaflets on the ground, locked doors at unusual times, making a plan to meet at a certain time and date but the character doesn’t show up and makes up a stupid and obvious lie to make up for it, blantant lying, shifting blame from them to the MC, blaming external factors, cheaters usually make up an elablorate excuse for their actions and try to gaslight their love interests into thinking that it’s their fault, or saying that “haha youre just paranoid” or “stop being so controlling”)). My point is, keeping it away from MC/players eyes as long as possible creates an emotion which rewards the reader with release/reveal/payoff and gives a really satisfying scene. Hidden easter eggs, distractions from it happening, clues through other charaters or npc’s talking, is a great way to tell a story and let the player piece it together.) 2. Fake out or bait and switch - making your reader/MC look one way while another thing is happening, after it ends the reader should only facepalm and think to himself how could he be so stupid. Also MC/reader has to pick between two/three and both choices are wrong(but he doesn’t know that) Usually as you play a game like this players go into it with certain expectations and common plot deviced in their mind, predictability isn’t great since as a writer you have to innovate, depowering the MC/player and making him realise that things are not going to go like he expected is incredibly fun which shatters readers preconcieved notions of what the expect, that makes it more interesting not only for the writer, but for the reader as well. Lets say Cyanne dissapears and you’re looking for her, then theres a couple fucking behind the curtain in the barracks. The reader is almost certain that it’s her, he make up the scenario in your mind, because he has preconcieved notions and expects the plot to go a certain way, but as the MC fights through the guards - in the end it’s revealed that it’s not Cyanne and the characters get to make fun of the players “paranoia”. These false flags can be used to deconstruct the players expectations and keep him on the edge of his seat. 3. Bomb under the table concept - Alfred Hitchcock has a great example of suspense, he says “If there is a dialogue between two people and suddenly a bomb goes off. It it gives the viewer a short scare, but it’s cheap and the emotion doesn’t feel earned. Cheap plots without set up are forgotten pretty fast. But if somebody puts a bomb under a table with a 5 minute timer and there’s two people talking near the bomb without knowing about it then you have suspense.” A reader/MC knowing something that others don’t gives you the feeling of suspense that elicits a really great emotion that you could exploit.” The powers of the amulet is your timebomb. I would suggest not going for the bomb explosion or a cheap scare factor but play with the tension and players feelings, let him suffer through it, we as players know that the bomb is going to explode but let the character try and fix it or look for clues to prevent it but make it a tough fight. Make the MC/reader know that some girl is in debt but you “don’t know” how they will repay it. You know someting that is compromising, but not the full picture, this what gives intrigue. 4. Not fighting back concept - first I find it really admirable and would like to encourage you, to pursue the notion of them agreeing by themselves (them getting outsmarted instead of put into an ex-machina situation where they have to give up, the vicotry has to feel earned, or set up earlier, or both.) There is a thin line where the stakes and asks have to be set up in a way where the escalation feels natural and not forced. Plus keep an eye on the tempo because if you’re too careful about story beats it becomes a snooze. It’s like a fine tuned instrument. Like I’ve said before, we all know the end point but the journey and “how?” the characters get there is the interesting part. 5. Set up things early to pay off later - any plot of a great story has very intricate and sublte set ups that might be missed by the reader early but be given the “oh shit” moment when it gets to the pay-off. I would suggest implementing a few of those, or even easter eggs that a speed run could miss. These tools would strengthen the integrity of the plot line. Spending a good chunk of story for set up is what makes the player forget what game hes playing and get more immersed. Plus when NTR happens it could be a genuine surprise or an unexpected outcome. We know the girls are getting fucked in the end, but not expecting it, or walking into it, or getting ambushed by it (I loved the one sided mirror idea in HC2), thats what would give a satisfying pay off. Extending the story + lore could be a really good thing as well but keeping it just tight enough to not lose people in lengthy expo dump. I know that you’ve said that this game is about character and not story, but a believable and immersive world makes characters more believable) Now for some critique ( my own personal thoughts): 1. A scene so early into the game without any set up seems like a very vulgar move (talking about the ship), remember that the more sex the player sees the more we get desensitized to the notion of it, now imagine if you didn’t see any sex for the good portion of the game, now the princesses scenes, and priestess scenes have more impact because its the first time in game that you’re witnessing it. I know that you have to have a good hook at the start and I understand, but I’m always up for things being more subtle at the start. 2. Feeding the player information the same way you feed the character the information. This technique imerses the player more than cutting to a “council” meeting in the dark. for example it could be done by implementing dialogue of rumors, or religiuos text fliers in town, preacher of a great conspiracy and corruption, let people discuss these rumors in bars. Letting the player find the information and peace it together in his mind engages him more and makes him look for it. Separating what the player and the MC knows is a jarring experience. This goes for the baron scenes as well, showing the maids blushing going out of his room or overhearing them talk about his exploits would raise suspicion not only for the character but for the player, you get what I mean. The more info both sides share the more immersive it is. (now I know this is a hentai game and you have to implement scenes where the player is not present but I liked the approach where you know that the scene happening but you only see a portion of it, and if you want to see it in its fullest let people watch them in the reminiscence room, but don’t force me to do it while playing, let me pick - the pov option was a incredibly smart decision for immersion. Main idea is the NTRPG2 approach where its subtle enough at the start, to first break the MC’s heart, but then crush it.) 3. Weak MC motivation - While I’ve played through the game a couple of times it sometimes feel like the MC is an outsider without actually impacting the world, now I know its very intricate but his motivation is quite generic. Him wanting to marry the princess and protect everyone is very broad. As an example. What if MC’s motivation and the bad guys motivation was the same. What if the MC knew a way to light up the towers and he needed the girls on his side but he was directly in conflict with the bad guys? What if his motivation is having children because he grew up with no parents and sees kids as a way to redeem himself. So he wants to have sex with a girl but she keeps denying him. Please consider the idea of a strong character where the player can be immersed in his quest for something. Where MC sometimes gets distracted from the NTR. MC being preoccupied with his quest for “something” gets distracted enough that the NTR comes as a surprise or “how could’ve I’ve been so foolish” kind of sense. Having a separate goals to help each character as a side quest is good but the main quest has to be in conflict or similar to the main villain’s for a strong emotional response from the audience. Even the side-quests have to lead towards a similar path where sometimes the plots even cross paths. This gives you a great tool for variation. Anyway, incredible work! I would like to mention that the art is fantastic and the new portraits slaps. I love your work and was thinking about this response for a really long time, I might not be the best at typing up my thoughts but I hope you get the gist of what I’m trying to say. Plus I love the fact that you’re taking GIANT leaps of improvement with each HC. Have a good one and I’m eager to play v2. (Voiceover for HC4? :D) P.S I loved the prologue, just long enough. Good job.
Jack Dorsey
2022-12-11 20:45:48 +0000 UTCYou'll see : )
N_taii
2022-12-10 16:40:03 +0000 UTCis Cyanna getting done by Brutus? 👀
Meioh
2022-12-10 02:19:20 +0000 UTCSort of connected to the above post, I think the reason why NTR games get more flack for being "unrealistic/unbelievable" is because unlike, say, more non-con corruption stuff, the connective tissue in most NTR scenarios is that there's usually some level of voluntary choice that the heroine has. They retain more control over their situation, and so, it becomes harder to justify their situation.
BirthdayParty
2022-12-07 06:49:54 +0000 UTCIt'll come in due time, don't worry : ) Not in this update, but most probably in the next one^^
N_taii
2022-12-05 23:04:19 +0000 UTCps: plz more Heylen Content. :)
TOMSTRONG
2022-12-05 22:51:38 +0000 UTCdude, I love the Heylen character and the Content I wish -She was the main focus :( but alas- keep up the great work.. keep doing you!
TOMSTRONG
2022-12-05 22:51:08 +0000 UTCThat's because you are doing incredible work with your games. Thank you for that :)
Octotent
2022-12-02 15:52:00 +0000 UTCI should have used another word. What I got were never really complaints, more like advices, or suggestions on how to improve? No one that actually brought up those issues to me really felt like they were complaing, to be honest with you. As you said, they seemed very satisfied with the game, and mentioned realism and fighting back as some minor things that could be improved, which is what I'm trying to do : )
N_taii
2022-12-02 15:38:57 +0000 UTCIt all depends on what "fighting back" could mean, I suppose. The girls still say no from time to time and try to set limits, until they're ultimately manipulated into doing certain acts. Since none of the 4 main girls are ever really forced into anything through means of blackmail and the likes, it's hard to describe their resistance as purely fighting back, since they're not technically "fighting" anyone, but they're still trying to stay in control and not agree to anything right away. Maybe that could somehow count as fighting back too?
N_taii
2022-12-02 15:32:46 +0000 UTCI think the reason you get complaints is because the game is already really good and people expect a masterpiece. Most other games are garbage, so the expectations are not really high for them. There are way too many games tthat start out with stupid settings and go right into f*cking. That's not the case here, so I think people think "If you're trying to do a believable story, at least do it right". So I think complaints are actually a good thing, because it means that you've built up some expectations, which is not the case for many other developers
Snowman9712
2022-12-01 00:57:45 +0000 UTChow attractive， The Undetectable sexual behavior（MC sight）!
lehann
2022-11-30 04:39:37 +0000 UTCI was addressing the fact that people complaining ntr lacking believability and the women not fighting back. If they fought back they wouldn't be cheating. Ntr with "fighting back" is just, Iya, iya iya ---- Haaaaaai. My point is, don't take it to heart if it bothers you, some people just want you to fulfill specific fantasies.
SadHamsterNoises
2022-11-30 00:04:15 +0000 UTCThey just casually cheating on the MC is more believable but definitely no fun at all
Mr. V
2022-11-29 21:06:41 +0000 UTCYeah. Semi-realistic is a lot better than enforcing believability and realism. I really didn't come here for realism, i came here mostly for the porn, setting and Mystery NTR. Which is incredibly underrated and underused by far. So i have been hungering for that, and some other things that which isn't here, though. But that is fine. What you are creating is High Quality and focuses exactly on Mystery Netorare, which i enjoy. Just stay true to that. I have been on on a Subscribestar Creator which has had a few of these jerks who wants "Vanilla" or "Reverse Netorare" in something that specifically focuses on Netorare, with Mystery in it, and Floof of course. It is enraging to see people making stupid demands when the Creator and the Focus is something else, with limited time and resources. Anyways. Rant over. I'll be playing some Realms of Magic, and chill. Look forward to more! Remember to take your time, don't stress yourself and most importantly, enjoy what you are creating! Peace for now! I'll chime in when i have a reason to comment.
Jazuke Taizago
2022-11-29 18:38:30 +0000 UTCI’m definitely one of those who would like to see more fighting back from the girls, its good to know I’m not alone lol. For me the best part of NTR is a strong-willed girl that tries to fight back, but gets conquered anyway. That said, I totally respect your creative freedom over your works, and you’ve already shown everyone that you make awesome games! Thanks for keeping believable resistance from the girls though. If you want HC3 to focus more on willful submission, maybe we can could still have counterpoints in some characters that resist more?
newguy42
2022-11-29 18:36:19 +0000 UTCThat might be true, but the reason many of us love HC in particular is due to the believable and slow corruption. There are countless fast paced NTR games out there, but that's not what most of us are here for. Don't know if you've played HC2, but that's about what we're looking for
Snowman9712
2022-11-29 15:21:06 +0000 UTCI'm not sure if the MC will really put the pieces of the NTR together in the middle of the game, as I like to keep him oblivious for as long as possible. I find it more exciting that way : )
N_taii
2022-11-29 14:09:24 +0000 UTCI like that analogy with the scale. This is what I'm trying to do, with one side of the scale weighing their own repectability and morals, as well as their loyalty to the MC, and on the other the reasons for the NTR, which I'm trying to make as heavy as the rest. For Haylen, this is kind of what I'm going for, but there are also some things hidden in her past that I want to make use of as well, but more on that later : ) As for the others, you'll see in future updates ; )
N_taii
2022-11-29 14:07:27 +0000 UTC: )
N_taii
2022-11-29 14:01:12 +0000 UTCYep, I'm aware cheating is relatively common and trivial, but that's not the kind of vibe I wish to have in HC3. It has already been established that the MC had a strong relationship going with the women around him, and none of them had low morals or any apparent inclination to promiscuity. That's why having them sleep with other men needs a good deal more set-up to appear believable, otherwise it'd make no sense.
N_taii
2022-11-29 14:01:05 +0000 UTCYep, I understand what this game is about, and this is why many of the themes used in it would never happen in real life. Still, I try to go for a semi-realistic style, meaning that where I can add realism in HC3 without compromising the enjoyment of players, I'll try to do it.
N_taii
2022-11-29 13:56:04 +0000 UTCThanks! I've spent quite a lot of time setting up Cyanna for her corruption, even at times players might not have realized it, so I hope it'll satisfy players. Also, I wish I could add more TT opponents, but with a limited number of cards to distribute between players, and no way of knowing exactly how long the main storyline will be, I have to make sure not to put too many of them at the beginning^^
N_taii
2022-11-29 13:52:42 +0000 UTCYeay ! More Triple Trident ! (Am I the only one hyped by this ?) I think that you do a really good job on the believability of the corruption so far, even in HC2. HC1 was more simple, but not as stupid as you said in the post. The military camp was a good phase to introduce the character and how they can't really fight back, and how willingly embrace whatever is happening is the best option. I'm looking forward the update !
Kono
2022-11-29 08:44:29 +0000 UTCTo be completely blunt. I come here for the Porn. Not necessarily the Story. But you do what you want and i'll just enjoy the parts i like more/most. But you'd be surprised how simple and common cheating is. It doesn't really take a complex reason, and it even can be as simple as "Bigger Dick". Women are vain creatures, despite their beauty.
Jazuke Taizago
2022-11-29 08:27:32 +0000 UTCI mean irl people cheat for the simplest things. They find their coworker more attractive; the bf isn't paying much attention, so they get lonely and don't get the validation they want but lo and behold a younger man/attractive man tells her she's beautiful. Some people do it to keep their jobs, pay their rent, just because they want to experiment. Blackmail is a real-life thing too. I even know this guy (my coworker) Irl who told me he likes watching his gf have sex with other dudes and then send him videos, a couple of months later she broke up with him for one of those dudes! My coworker was mad and depressed for a while and had casual sex with a lot of other women. The hentai tropes are def the more cartoony kind. I think all is enjoyable though. One hentai manga i'm really into is [Chocoro] Kanojo no SmaPho o Nozoita dake nano ni | I Just Snooped through Her Smartphone. Gooooood stuff.
SadHamsterNoises
2022-11-29 05:42:26 +0000 UTCDefinitely the gal I’m looking forward to the most. Can’t wait!
Court_Of_Crows
2022-11-29 05:22:59 +0000 UTCI also have some thoughts on believability. For example here are some classic NTR examples: Because she was photographed kissing her boyfriend, in order not to be expelled from school, the heroine kept sex with her teacher a secret. Or in order to keep her boyfriend's starting position, the girlfriend decides to betray him and agree to all the coach's demands. "Hey, heroine, if you don't want to be expelled from school, you have to have sex with the teacher." Like you said, even though these stories would deepen the heroine's devotion, if someone told it like that in reality, I think we'd see him in court. NTR stories are like a scale, if the scale is tilted, the cost is ruining your life, but the reasons placed on the other end of the scale, are always unconvincing, so I guess that's the problem, because most people don't feel will choose so. I think I like what you're doing at HC3 so far. About Haylen, I think she will struggle with years of loneliness, and finally relented because of motherhood and kindness? As for the other heroines, if Leto is placed on one side of the scale first, Lily will give up here for her family and dreams, while Rose will give up her love and choose people and countries because of her sense of responsibility. These seem more reasonable. Cyanna has the goal of revenge, but I guess because of her identity, her story may be somewhat similar to Rose's. There are also some people and countries. They will resist in the good end and obey in the bad end? Anyway, I'll be looking forward to your answer in update 2!
Medamayaki
2022-11-29 03:57:31 +0000 UTCJust my personal opinion, please pay attention to your body,do not overwork too much ! looking forward to Taii your next update!
lehann
2022-11-29 01:08:35 +0000 UTCHC2's strategy of framing NOAH also seems to be advisable. The corruption as I know can be divided into Dedication Behind (like love training, to protect someone (sexual coercion), mind control, and rape when lack force or intelligence, because Taii has set the choice for us in the beginning, Therefore, I wonder whether make Leto to find some clues in the middle stage and start to compete with the opponents, and finally get win or lose. In the first two works of HC, NTR (Sexual behavior) events are bound to happen, and maybe HC3 can increase more options ?
lehann
2022-11-29 01:07:35 +0000 UTC
