XaiJu
frankfreezy
frankfreezy

patreon


The Walking Dead 3 x 15-16 | Full-Length Reaction

The Walking Dead 3 x 15-16 | Full-Length Reaction

Comments

that so annoying to learn

Franklin

The worst thing to me about Andrea’s end was that it wasn’t supposed to happen. Andrea’s character was expected to run several more seasons per the comics but the writer felt like he needed more of a “shock” to end the season. She had previously been told she’d be signed on 13 more episodes at least. This is the point where the writers of TWD started to lose me with their character deaths 😭

Julia Timlin

Fuuuuuck I cried so hard when Merle died, for Daryl. I legit did not remember him dying this way though- in my memory, it was at night, at Woodbury, and Merle sacrificed himself somehow. Memory is such a funny thing!!

First Name Ella

Genuinely curious- why DID you wait until now to watch the show? Genuinely want to know!

First Name Ella

As an aside I swear Michonne looks more beautiful than usual, which is saying a lot because she's always gorgeous

First Name Ella

9:30 I would argue that Michonne and Rick haven't bonded yet much at all. That's a major flaw (as of now) for Michonne- she doesn't trust anyone. And you can't blame her, given what we know about her past. Notice it was Andrea- a woman- that she chose to get close to. Men have done her dirty her entire life. But either way, Rick was idiotic for even considering the idea of giving up Michonne. It's like what Daryl says later- that makes them as dirty as he is. But they aren't. It's why Rick says he can't do it.

First Name Ella

Thankfully that is what I heard him say in my head

Franklin

The first time I watched Carl kill that kid, I had the same look on my face that you just had on yours. Frank, I want to ask a favor. I've only heard you say it a couple times, but when you call a character the N word it hurts my head and heart. It feels no different than when Meryl said it or when I hear it in real life. Slurs are slurs no matter who is saying them. Please consider. ✌️💖

Pam Copling

Didn’t see anyone comment about it, so just have to put a little correction: While you are totally correct that we’ve seen Karen, the lone survivor from Woodbury, in several episodes throughout, she was not the woman who gave Andrea and Michonne a tour and she was never shown to be sleeping with the Governor. The woman who gave the tour WAS the same woman who was in his bed later, but I’m pretty sure we never saw that person again after that. Karen would just pop up a lot out in the town square. Her most memorable moment was probably when she was standing up for the kid who had asthma, saying he shouldn’t be fighting, but she was also shown to be questioning why they couldn’t leave and discussing problems with Andrea.

Jen Bee

As someone who worked in accessibility for many years, I am SUCH a stickler for accuracy in captioning in general. But MAN does it gripe me when mistakes deeply alter the content’s meaning! At the end, when Andrea says it’s good that Michonne found the group because no one can make it out there alone, the captions when Daryl speaks say, “I never could.” Like—-?? What??? WHY would anyone say something so bizarre as their friend is dying, making the moment about themselves, let alone DARYL?? No, he says, “THEY never could,” which is so poignant and important. lol sorry, but it just irks me so much every time!

Jen Bee

real talk. He was very brave to the very end

Franklin

There's so much to talk about in these eps, but since no one else seems to have mentioned him I'd like to give a shout-out to Milton. I mean ultimately that wimpy lil' science dude was braver than most, especially when you consider how much longer he'd known the Governor(i.e. how much longer he's been subject to his manipulations), and how much more sheltered he's been from everything outside. Like Milton knew he'd been on thin ice for a while just for asking questions(and in almost all his interactions with the governor he's been visibly unnerved by him, so it's clear he sensed that danger), so telling Andrea about everything and sending her off to warn the prison + staying behind to burn those walkers? Death sentence. But he did it anyway, and this despite having no allies and no way to physically defend himself even(because he's not a fighter), and I just find that super admirable. He might've seemed weak, but he was actually really strong in the ways that matter.

Markatta

😭

Franklin

Your comment brought to mind the invention. I know this history, it was studied in medical school. He did invent a rudimentary vaginal speculum to facilitate the examination of a patient who was suffering from a prolapsed uterus. This invention allowed him to begin work on a method to surgically repair vesico-vaginal fistulas, a devastating condition that typically occurs following prolonged obstructed labor and results in the creation of a passage way from the urethra to the vagina. The result is a constant leaking of urine from the vagina, and patients experienced lifelong debilitation. There was no known cure for the condition. It was not his invention of the speculum itself that was the problem. It is used to give a doctor a better view of the surgical area and not used as an instrument of torture. It was the fact that Dr. Sims believed that black women did not feel pain like white women did...he actually believed they felt little to no pain! It seems so unbelievable! His first patient with the condition mentioned above was a black slave woman named Anarcha, a 17-year-old girl who was brought to Sims by her slave-owner. Anarcha, along with two other afflicted slave women named Betsy and Lucy, became just three of the women upon whom Sims experimented in his search for a method of treating their condition. They were not given a choice in these experiments as their status as slaves precluded consent. The experiments themselves were gruesome: Anarcha was operated upon a total of thirty times before Sims was able to close the fistula. The operations were done without anesthesia, even though it had recently been discovered. So these women were held down on the operating table and allowed to suffer. After 7 years of horror for these women, Sims finally found a method that worked, using silver suture wire to prevent the infection and tissue breakdown that had caused his previous attempts to fail. The speculum itself was not the problem, it was his unethical and inhumane experiments. I truly believe he was a racist to believe that a black woman did not feel pain and most likely a slave owner because there is not one mention of ever using a white woman in his early experiments. Beyond ugly and horrifying.

KimM

some more thoughts : i had the same exact reaction to rick wanting to give up michonne like really???? after "clear"?? but then like you i appreciated him as character all the way more seeing how he reassessed and then apologized. agreed michonne is a real one for being so understanding, love her but yeah wouldn’t have faulted her if she’d felt differently what you said about the merle and michonne scene paralleling some of shane’s storyline made me wish we could’ve seen michonne and shane interact! that gynecological tool the governor intended to use on michonne is a speculum as others specified and it’s also worth mentioning that that device’s rl history / invention is rooted in slavery and inhumane medical practices, J. Marion Sims experimented on enslaved black women without anesthesia to develop it. makes it all the more horrifying really enjoying this rewatch with all your commentary and i’m so excited to get into S4!!

fara

re: rick’s hallucinations of lori i have to say i never read them as her being a moral compass, lori didn’t really have that role for him or the group (dale did, herschel does). she def was that for carl as we saw in their final moment. but S1 and S2 are full of moments of rick going to lori but then their conversations rarely left either of them with more clarity. and tbh after that final emotional whiplash (her reaction to him killing shane) i just can’t see him viewing her as a rock or guide and that’s fine to me his visions are less about guidance and more about being haunted by guilt and trauma. she becomes a symbol of the version of himself that failed to fix things : their marriage, his family, the people he’s lost, himself even. so in 3x15 when rick sees her and decides not to hand michonne to the governor, she appears as a manifestation of his past regrets and internal conflict a reminder of what he lost when he closed off. she’s not a compass, she’s a mirror (idk if that makes sense? lol) like it’s not about who lori was but about what her death represents for rick when he brings the woodbury people into the prison and doesn’t see her up there anymore, it sort of closes the circle. it’s like he's starting to actually live with the guilt while also choosing to open up and community again. he's not externalizing his pain through hallucinating lori, making space for it within himself without letting it consume him

fara

Man, I wrote out a whole thing and then my computer froze, and I had to restart. So much lost. Let's see if I can try to remember some of it. I think Michonne being the one to bring Merle to redemption is so perfect. They were both the type to sit on the outside and be independent, but the difference is, she took her shot, and he squandered his. I believe Merle actually desperately wanted to go back and take his shot, but he knew it might come at the expense of his brother's, and he would still have to live with what he'd done. I appreciate that Michonne knew that Rick wouldn't have handed her over, and she acknowledged that considering the choice didn't make him a bad person. Michonne judges people solely by their actions, never by their words. I love the parallel you drew from Daryl putting Merle down to Rick and Carol's own experiences with that. They all had the same pain, guilt, and rage toward someone who wronged them that bubbled to the surface in their final moment with them. Carl killing that boy will never sit right with me. Children killing children is the worst product of war. But the way he just gunned him down with no hesitation, so that he could prove himself? Sends chills down my spine. His reasons are valid, but it's so scary and sad to watch. Michonne is proven right by the Governor once again with the massacre. A truly evil person does feel light as a feather. I will say it again, Andrea was wasted potential. I still love her arc and feel for her character, but they could have done so much more with her. The writers didn't do a bad job at all with the way they reworked her story, I guess I just dislike the trope of redemption shortly followed by death being overused, and Andrea and Merle in just 2 episodes felt like a lot. Now that it's over for her, though, I can finally talk about Andrea in the comics more. SPOILER WARNING FOR THE COMICS FROM HERE ON: She was so mentally strong and became the sharpshooter of the group because she was such a good marksman. She and Rick actually ended up marrying later in the story. You could see the writers setting them up for it in the first season, but they made the decision to veer away from it, which is absolutely fine, and I really did like how they changed the story! During her final moments in the comics, she said, "People still need you. You have to keep doing what you're doing. You have to stay strong! Otherwise...otherwise this was all for nothing... If this all falls apart...and it will without you...why did you fight so hard? You've built something...important. You have to keep fighting for it no matter what. These people are counting on you -- you've been a shining beacon...in a world of darkness. You've made an oasis in a world of shit. You've made it possible for people to work together...to be a community...to be stronger... That makes you stronger. You'll keep going. You have to. That's what these people need. That's what this world needs. And that's...that's just what you do." You can feel the love and personality in that quote. Also a good character, but certainly different from the tv version of Andrea.

MegMegMegg

Another thing I’m just now considering, maybe Merle wanted to die so as not to bring down Daryl and let him have his new family. Daryl basically just did whatever Merle wanted for so long and he had finally gotten away and outgrown the need for his older brother, Merle comes back and realizes that, so perhaps he thought it was just best for everyone if he removed himself from the picture. Also the fact it’s Michonne who finally gets something thru to Merle is just so important. Merle mentions how she’s on the outside just like him and she even partially agrees given her reaction, her coming back after the fact (considering they plotted to give her to an evil man) is just showing her taking the road Merle was too broken to even try. She’s smart enough and empathetic enough to understand where Rick was coming from and was strong enough to forgive him for it.

Matthew Arner

Heyyy that was my comment u were talking ab in regards to Merle and Daryl, loved everything u had to add and appreciate u talking ab it so deeply. This whole episode just adds onto that idea and Merle is already just too far gone even in his own mind so he continues to be the bad guy. Every time michonne brings up a valid point u can just tell Merle takes it hard bc he knows she’s right. It’s sad that Daryl knew what his brother could be too and tried to reach out and speak sense but Merle yet again can’t accept it. So he takes michonne knowing Rick will back down, to continue in his villain role that he cast himself in, until it’s finally too much. Even then he doesn’t even give up his role of being the garbage man like michonne says, even until he dies he tries to at least get the last dirty job done by finishing off the governor. That’s easier for him than being part of something real with loving people. I think another key aspect is that Daryl was younger when he met the group and was able to change his ways just in time. Merle was too deep in and couldn’t see himself any other way.

Matthew Arner

I love season 3. So much. I said at the end of season 2 I felt like most the early seasons of TWD capture a loss of aspects of modern life. The first is society, no infrastructure or hospitals or military. The second is ownership, there’s no land or yours and mine. Your baby. My baby. Just whatever stuff or lives that are in your hands right now. The third to me is a loss of security. All walls can be breached. All fences can be damaged. There’s no hiding there’s no safety. As T (rip) said, he never stopped sleeping with one eye open and he still died. They don’t get to feel safe. You don’t get to hide. The prisoners are let out of their hiding and all die. The man in the shed with the dead dog. Morgan is hiding in a way too. None of them are secure anymore. Danger has spread to every corner. You have to always be suspicious even at the risk of your own code. There’s no social contract anymore. Love this show. Love ur thoughts on it. Stoked for season 4. 🥳🥳🥳

Broody Gaming

Epi. 16. Soooo much in this episode. Thoroughly enjoyed all your comments and took some to heart which I will comment on later. Not that we needed more evidence...but you see in the episode just how much the Governor enjoys inflicting pain, humiliating and killing people, truly sadistic nature. I've always wondered if he had these tendencies before the world of walkers hit. I just wanted to reach into the TV screen and gouge his other eye out and perhaps put his head on a pike!! So much fear in this man as well. That scene where Carl, Hershel and Beth watch the battle from the nearby forest, then see a young soldier running away and towards them. Carl orders the boy to drop his weapon, although the latter insists on handing it over. But as the boy moves forward to hand over his gun, Carl shoots him....WTF!!!! For sure it is easy to see in this episode that Carl is losing his sweet baby face, he's growing up, but at what costs! I feel both sides have a point regarding Carl killing the young Woodbury boy. Hershel is disgusted with Carl's action, believing the boy to be surrendering. Carl believes that the Woodbury soldier wasn't going to surrender. Hershel certainly has a point about Carl is becoming colder and colder. Enjoyed seeing a big call-back in this episode....Carl justifies his new do unto others before they do unto us attitude to Rick by bringing-up past instances that could have been avoided had they acted quickly such as Carl himself not killing a walker that ends up killing Dale, Rick not killing Andrew which indirectly caused Lori and T-Dog's deaths and Rick not killing the Governor when he had the chance which results to Merle's death. You clearly see how decisions can have a far reaching effect. It's a bittersweet ending. Thankfully the Governor is driven off from the prison and Woodbury's citizens have officially switched sides, eroding his power base greatly.  But sadly, Andrea has died and it seems Carl no longer trusts his father. When Rick looks up at the catwalk, and realizes that Lori is not there anymore, I think it means that he made the right choice to bring the citizens to the prison. As far as letting things go for the greater good, you really made me think. Even at my older age, I've not reached the point where I can forgive everything, where I can let it all go.... perhaps it will take an apocalypse for me. 😔😔😔 Something I need to work on.

KimM

“I know how the safety works” chills everytime.

Sofia W

This was such a strong season across the board. I love the reflections on the last two episodes about those moments of "good" people considering bad actions and "bad" people choosing to make good choices. There's even Hershel struggling with this in that scene with his daughters, at least hinting at him resigning himself to support Rick's decision to turn over Michonne before Rick interrupts him. Mini-redemption is a great way to reference the situation with Merle. For me, his choice is a good one but that doesn't necessarily make him a good man, and I appreciated seeing the complexity of that and vice versa. That scene between Merle and Rick is excellent. And all of this emphasizes the difficulty of seeing people as good or bad rather than the totality of the choices they make at the end. Also, these were the episodes when I accepted that Daryl is a real one! Such a great moment when he tells Rick that they're family. You can tell how much loyalty matters to him, and Michonne's loyalty made her a fast ally that he was willing to defend. Finally, those final scenes with Andrea still frustrate me, though I'm not sure if all that yapping and stalling while Milton died was a directing or editing frustration. Though I did LOL at her apocalypse pedicure that strangely captured the vibe of why she chose to stay in Woodbury. RIP Andrea.

courtru

That scene where the govenor shoots down all the people kinda reminds me of the 2011 Norway attack on Utøya. Just gunning down people and then going back making sure they were shot. People playing dead. Its such a short scene but just makes me sick everytime. So so terrifying

Sofia W

💐💐💐

Franklin

yes and yes

Franklin

Great point haa

Franklin

That's what I was thinking too. Especially after he shot one of them who actually raised his gun to him for him to stop

Franklin

So true. Good people can do bad things carl man carl

Franklin

I see, thanks for clarifying about carl's frustration

Franklin

Exactly exactly. She literally came in this show and stole it

Franklin

I'm with you. Especially when Merle considers the governor's forgiveness. I was like "the governor???????... Forgive??"

Franklin

Honestly been shocked at Rick even considering it is very valid. Love everything you said. I'm so proud of Merle. Lost his brother all over again😭 The government deserves a special place in hell. Shout out to the good doctors out there that actually listen

Franklin

Very intentional. What a fucking prick

Franklin

It's almost like it's on my mind 24/7

Franklin

totally. i'm with you

Franklin

I really appreciate your comments about characters making mistakes, poor decisions, incorrect judgments, acting on fear, and so much more VS. malice. Even through all of the frustration I felt with the way Andrea's character arc went, she never ever had malice in her heart. And, though I still feel the way I feel about earlier episodes, it really hurt to see her go with all of that regret. So glad to see her surrounded by her people who did genuinely care about her. It must be said and said and said: Michonne. Period.

Melissa

Yeah. but until he actually kills the people of Woodbury, his point about if he had been more like that, how his daughter would still be alive, i an kind of see how he might arrive at such an attitude. I'm never trying to say that the bad guys are good, rather peel back the rationale for why they do what they do, and see why they are the good guys in their own narratives, rather than just labeling them outright bad. If they are just 1 layer bad, then that is boring af. That's why the Governor is such a good villain. You can see where the things started to go wrong for him, and the descent into it getting worse and worse until in this episode he just straight up loses his shit. But he wasn't a bad person when the whole thing started, if I remember correctly. He just reacted differently to everyone else under pressure. And that is what makes him a compelling villain. Norman's acting truly indeed is wonderful in that scene, the way he get all of his emotions on display, from the sadness to the anger, and so raw. To think the guy was created just for the show. I never read the comics but Kirkman's involvement in the show gives it cred, so it is basically just an alternate universe telling of the story.

Eboe Thrasher

OA MENTIONED!!

melskmelsk

There was definitely a vaginal speculum among the tools. As someone with a vagina it def caught my eye back when the governor was arranging them 😬 I'm sure it could have a variety of torture applications but ya I'm also sure setting it out for a woman was intentional

melskmelsk

Epi.15 I admit when I first watched this episode years ago, I was shocked that Rick was still considering and even working towards handing Michonne over. Especially when Merle, of all people, tells Rick point blank that if he turns her over to the Governor, she will be tortured. Merle calls Rick "Officer Friendly", as he did when chained to the roof in the first episode....nice call back! And yet, Merle decides to take matters into his own hands to turn over Michonne. Can I ever trust Merle...just maybe! I say this because we do see when Merle finally gets it...when he realizes that he not only will never fit in with the prison group, but he's spent his time being a pawn for The Governor.  Again, I asked myself, can I ever trust Merle? He ends up letting Michonne go and heads out on his own suicide mission to make up for it. At that point he redeemed himself in my eyes and if he lives, I prayed he would continue on this better path. Loved it when Merle is defiant to the very end when he tells the Governor he won't beg just before the Governor shoots him. I feel the episode emphasized that Merle is still a good person deep down. I cried so hard the first time and then again viewing this with you, when Daryl realizes the walker feasting on the corpse is Merle. It was so hard seeing Daryl cry when his undead brother stands up and staggers over to him, and he is forced to push him away repeatedly. The look on Daryl's face as he stabs Merle to prevent him from existing as a walker, I was choking back tears. And then Daryl collapses in tears on the ground....he lost this brother all over again.  Yes, Frank, so many spin-offs that are very good as well. Better than I thought they would be. Oh, the medical tool, a speculum. It is a medical device used in pelvic exams, that when used properly, can make the exam a less anxious experience. I've had some doctors during a pelvic exam that I could have kicked in their face and others that were geniunely careful and accommodating of your requests to make the exam more tolerable. Back later for epi. 16

KimM

I find the whole "had to consider handing over Michonne" thing so frustrating. I just felt impatient watching Rick struggle over it –like why are we wasting any time pretending he might do it when it makes no sense?! I don't expect Rick or the rest of our group to be perfect but imo this is the writers filling in a gap between where the characters are and where they want them to be next without bothering to make their motivations true. I can let it slide cuz it's small compared to everything going right with this series at this point but it does break my immersion for a bit.

melskmelsk

1:29:48 Michonne saying Rick had to consider it shows that she understands what it means to be a leader, to have to make impossible decisions, to find ways to protect yourself and others. To me, it's further confirmation (I didn't really need it, but in case other viewers did . . .) that what Carl said was exactly right: Michonne is one of them. Every re-watched episode reminds me again and again how much I love her character and Danai Gurira's portrayal of her.

Melissa

I've always remembered this line: "You kill or you die. Or you die and you kill." The Governor is a SADIST. I've mentioned that I watch a lot of true crime, or listen to pods, many about serial killers. The ones that terrify me most are the sadists. That's exactly what this man is. Chills me to the bone. (Oh, and I'm not sure about the instrument you asked about. I know what you're referring to, but I couldn't see it well enough to tell so that I can answer your question. But I wouldn't be a bit surprised given what I said up above.) Norman Readus' acting in that scene after Merle has turned is so raw and real. Breaks my heart every time. He lets out this little whimper that physically hurts me.

Melissa

And this is why I think Andrea's end is the saddest of them all, because it could've been SO avoidable but it just happened anyway. Really sad but I'm glad at least Michonne and the rest were there for her last moments. I think Carl was pissed not about the Michonne thing but about Rick not letting him in on the action when the Governor attacked the prison and telling him to hide with Hershel and Beth instead. He wanted to 'help', that's why he was throwing a tantrum. I keep saying, parenthood has got to be the hardest most complicated challenges in life, cant even imagine thru apocalypse. Rick is honestly doing such a great job with Carl, it's like, at any moment he could suddenly have gone into psycho mode and become some fucked up individual but Rick and the others always find a way to redirect him. It really takes a village. So admirable. You're gonna love the next seasons! And Tyreese and Sasha finally are a part of the group! So exciting!

Iris

I absolutely love these two episodes! But what stood out most to me were Merle’s redemption arc and Rick’s inner conflict, his struggle under the weight of leadership, trying to navigate the blurry line between morality and necessity. For a moment, he was walking a very thin gray line… but it didn’t last too long, because at his core, Rick is a good man. I really appreciate how the show explores the idea that even good people can do terrible things under extreme circumstances. And then there’s Carl. It’s heartbreaking to see how hardened he’s become by everything around him. In his world now, the concepts of good and bad almost don’t apply anymore. He’s still just a kid, still forming his identity, but all he sees is destruction. It’s tragic. As for Andrea, I won’t go too deep into her arc, but I can’t help thinking how differently things could’ve gone if she had just stayed loyal to Michonne and left with her. So… RIP, Andrea. And Michonne? She’s a queen!! She deserves a crown, though I guess it wouldn’t really go with her katana. 😄

Apricot M

TBF it has been at least 5 years since I've watched the show, I forget more than half the bad things the governor does it seems. His underlings should have shot him while he was shooting the others, plain and simple. No questions, kill that fucker right then and there.

Eboe Thrasher

LOL can't be choosy if the ring doesn't fit. She will make it fit on whatever finger it can haha.

Eboe Thrasher

I wondered how many people spotted that the first time we saw his torture setup, and whether they would ever make it more prominent in the show or if it was just a little extra nightmare for anyone who noticed. For those who do not have the anatomy to be aware, speculums are often deeply unpleasant even when they are used for their intended purpose by a skilled doctor, so. Yeah.

Amanda Winstead

My heart broke for Darrell, all the trauma he and his brother endured that led up to who they were before the apocalypse must have been so devastating. I’m so grateful Mechean* and Merle had their moment in the car where Merle character arc as small as it was, was a positive yet undeniable transformation.

Laura Thate

Andrea, this quote is for you. “I am not a human being having a spiritual experience, rather, I am a spiritual being having a human experience.” As you have transcended beyond your human boundaries, may your spiritual ascendance be complete and healed. RIP.

Laura Thate

The tool you were looking at was the first one I saw that made me vomit. The tool is a gynecological. Speculum is used for a female vaginal inspections by doctors for disease and to suave the cervix for any cervical cancer cells. And yes, I vomited in real life, knowing that this character the governor would do the most horrific things to Micheun*

Laura Thate


More Creators