Patrons-Only: For The True Nerds, Here's The Full Cut Of The Paige Harden Interview

Thanks. I was like oh great where is the additional 15 minutes?

Cory

Great discussion. Really enjoyed these eps

DrSmart

Progressives: how dare you link genetics and education!? Also Progressives: I’m neurodivergent It’s genetic Why doesn’t the education system accommodate me?

Michael

Anyone who has the idea that women's intelligence would have mattered less in pre modern societies could only have been frozen in a very specific upper class victorian timewarp or something. Women performed labor that was just as skilled as men's, it was just usually in specified domains, and tended to be closer to home. Is knowing and expertly executing the seasonality of fishing, gathering, and preparing foods (often that would otherwise kill you if prepared slightly differently) somehow requiring of less intelligence than tracking the movements of prey animal populations or manufacturing hunting equipment? Nonsense. And of course which domains was highly culturally variable. In some cultures farming was women's work exclusively, in others', men's only. Required exactly the same level of "intelligence" either way. It's only recently that we have the affluence to let either women or men get away with being layabouts who don't use their brains or bodies much if at all. Men and women have always worked and those who were more skilled (and more socially adept) produced more and were more successful. Which of course is in no way "fair". And people shouldn't be prideful just because they happen to have won the genetic lottery, or resentful because they didn't. People should be grateful and giving if they're so lucky.

I often think people miss something about intelligence and women in historical / repressive societies: in times of trouble (loss of husband, shortage of food / money) certain abilities and skills really count. One example is planning. I work in a sector with high numbers of women and see every day amazing amounts of intelligence devoted to planning in detail. Not unique to women - but an argument against the idea that outside modern western societies women’s intelligence doesn’t matter.

I think there's a third aspect too (as someone in academia with a PhD). The truth may be that for a lot of us, intellectual pursuits truly are our measure of a high-quality life (forget healthcare, money, etc. I'm talking about a life worth living). We can't put ourselves in the shoes of people who live different lives and may not even want that, and we are the ones who end up viewing IQ-type intelligence (which we don't want to actually attach to IQ, because genetic lottery) as a measure of full humanity, awful as that may be. In that case this research is all deeply uncomfortable, because subconsciously we are hearing that some people are more human than others. Our values are the ones that are sus. I do think this is part of the reason why it's more of a hangup among academics (and other people in knowledge-heavy professions) than other people. Basically everybody should be able to be us, or they aren't reaching their full potential as humans (because we're obviously at the peak :P ).

I think two big things go into “genetics doesn’t matter” thought that weren’t really discussed here. The first is a kind of elitism that I think you two both fall into a bit here. This idea that no BA/BS means a hellish life. It’s just not true. I mean your life would probably be harder, but it’s MILES from a guarantee. A segment of leftists have fully embraced that lack of education=destitution is a universal truism and not merely a correlate - one of MANY correlates. The other thing is the idea that intelligence being genetic minimizes your accomplishments. PhD-havers tend to be very proud of their PhDs and WANT their PhD to be a reflection of their personal strength and elitism. If intelligence is genetic than their PhD is luck - or *GASP* privilege - and it being luck eliminates their claim to some kind of better-ness. You can’t be an elite Liberal if you are an elite largely by luck/privilege, so those who ARE elite have a ton of incentive to downplay that luck/privilege as much as humanly possible.

Really interesting discussion. Bad faith actors shouldn't poison entire wells of discussion and research that's an extremely pessimistic view of the world. The answer would be to come up with a progressive rebuttal not shut down discussion.

Positivelypolarized69

Would recommend listening to the first half of the other podcast then switching to this for the full interview

Worst part of this interview for Jesse was when she said she had a boyfriend.

Sounds like someone is a good Chaostician -my favorite kind of tician shout out to the University of Santa Fe online Complexity Explorer which was my gym listen a few years ago- and I will be looking to use up a few of my audible credits. Also, usually don’t listen to you guys on lift days and I’m down 20lbs on my bench. Coincidence?

Totally. Fresh air is poison to us!

You can't make us. We are adults, and we like it indoors. 😬

The first half(ish) of the other ep has other stuff on other subjects. This is just a longer and more in-depth version of the final segment of that ep. -Jesse

Should I listen to just this or both eps?

Timothy Buechner