Episode 83: Historically, The Anatomy And Physiology Of Bodies With Vaginas Has Been Neglected (early access, ad-free)

The Elizabeth Holmes story is amazing to me. The device was a medical device not a silly app for fun. She was able to get so much money because she was a woman and bamboozled all these silly old men on her board. Phyllis Gardner, MD was smart enough to see through Elizabeth Holmes. Phyllis rightly blames these old men thinking with their groins.

Funny that The Lancet doesn't realize that "intersex people" who menstruate are female. And also, that by and large they prefer DSDs or VSDs "differences in sexual development, or variations in sexual development." It's nice The Lancet wants to be inclusive, but clearly thinks intersex is an identity, along with "woman." Sigh. However, I agree with you that if the phrase were just in the article it would not be so bad, but it was put on the cover for a reason, and that reason seems to be an effort to redefine the word "woman." And that is unfortuante.

So I went ahead and read the article the Lancet cover quotes from, and the full sentence isn't that bad. It's from a review of an exhibit about menstruation in the UK : (https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(21)01962-0/fulltext#%20). The full paragraph is : "Historically, the anatomy and physiology of bodies with vaginas have been neglected—for example, the paucity in understanding of endometriosis and the way women's pain has been seen as more likely to have an emotional or psychological cause, a hangover from centuries of theorising about hysteria. This exhibition and the Vagina Museum as a whole aim to redress this lack of attention." In that context I see the use of the expression "people with vaginas" as a way to draw the attention of the reader by using a direct language hitting at the heart of the matter and one of the reasons women's reproductive health tends to be neglected. It's a perfectly fine stylistic choice for some shock value, especially since it's not a scientific article but a review, and one I could have made in similar circumstances. Don't get me wrong, the whole article does have strong "inclusive" vibes and the notion of "woman" tends to fade in the background, which is… strange given the subject matter, and aggravating given the more general context of erasure of women in the various ways Katie and Jessie describe in the episode. In the review it is done in a more subtle way than calling women by their more characteristic body part. I guess if it had been just the article The Lancet could have gotten away with it, but some editor gave the game away by using that bodies with vaginas quote. And the answer by the editor in chief is something to behold : https://www.thelancet.com/25sept-cover-statement

I like this! Although, number two on this list includes this line: "Also, not all women are biologically female, and the conflation of "female" to "woman" erases gender-nonconforming people and members of the trans community." Which is essentially why we are here talking about bodies with vaginas. Although, I would argue... if someone thinks "not all women are female", then they probably think, "not all people with vaginas are female," and then the whole article in The Lancet really doesn't make sense if you start including biological males in the category "bodies with vaginas". And so it goes round and round and round...........

https://www.buzzfeed.com/tracyclayton/stop-calling-women-females#.jhGxxDgjnq

Does anyone remember the brief moment when "female" was a bad word? It was a simpler time.

And then in the end, it's reduced to a playground insult that's been given a sense of validity via unapplicable political association. You criticize anyone beloved by mainstream liberal groups, you're an incel. You think Elizabeth Holmes is a fraud? You're an incel. You don't like how Hillary turned Libya into an open-air slave market? Hmm... perhaps your inability to get laid has caused you to hate women. You think it's weird that last year's anti-racism protests resulted in the election of the guy who wrote the racist crime bill? Well, friend, you just may be of the incel persuasion.

Tristan Abbott

"Incel" becoming a generic pejorative in liberal spaces has been the weirdest thing. I remember a community calling a guy an incel because he talked about how often he got laid. Like... he sounded like a douche, sure, but he was doing literally the exact opposite of inceldom and the term incel was used to describe him without a hint of self-awareness. The term is basically a generic criticism for unpleasant behaviors stereotypically associated with men, but it's more often than not applied to people with, like, swagger or whatever.

Tristan Abbott

Jesse just go to a sports bar like normal New Yorkers

Y'know people always say life is short and stuff. But the Menendez Brothers seems like as long ago as Sacco and Vanzetti. And they're the same age? Huh.

it turns out that Ellen K. Pao was a college classmate. Fortunately, I did not have the pleasure of her acquaintance. The headlines she's made the past decade make her sound like an insufferable narcissist. To be fair, Ellen is a real peach in comparison to another classmate, Lyle Menendez (he didn't graduate as he spent what should have been sophomore year committing double-patricide).

In fairness to the incels issue, the edge incidents have been mass murders, which would actually count as "a thing"

"Why not, if it is so 'kind and inclusive'"? If I had to guess it would be this: "Men/male" has a bad image in wokeness for all the regular leftish reasons (many justified IMHO!). So just saying trans Men are Men and leaving it at that doesn't really work. Because now they're oppressors and you have to dislike them. So you have to find a way to break them off without saying they're not actual men. Bada bing: "bodies with vaginas". Trans women don't have this issue because they are JOINING an oppressed class. You dont need the moral work around.

I had numerous discourses with people online who claimed "bodies with vaginas" is language that is "inclusive and kind" to trans men. I have two thoughts on this... first, trans men are generally female people who suffer from intense dysphoria. This dysphoria largely revolves around their female body. How is it "kind" to then refer to trans men as "bodies with vaginas" when the whole reason they are trans men in the first place is because they are a body with a vagina. This language seems utterly cruel, definitely not "kind." Also, if "bodies with vaginas" is a kind and inclusive way to refer to trans men, then wouldn't it follow that "bodies with penises" is a kind and inclusive way of referring to trans women? Imagine if the Wi Spa articles had centered this language: "Controversy broke out when a body with a penis disrobed in front of bodies with vaginas". Would trans activists applaud that language? Why not, if it is so "kind and inclusive"?

Vape Naysh, y'all.

III

I have slowly come to the conclusion that for many enbies, being “non-binary” is a way of saying “I don’t feel like I belong to the in-group.” This makes sense when it comes to something visual, like men wearing feminine clothing or cosmetics, but becomes fraught as soon as anyone tries to elevate it to be about personality. Most people aren’t waking stereotypes, so “cis” starts to mean “someone I have judged to be mainstream without actually knowing how they identify, either.” Meanwhile, loads of well meaning people are happily self-describing as “cis” because they think they’re just saying they don’t have dysphoria.

Joolz

I dunno, Chase Strangio is a pretty key figure in all this.

Oh my god I JUST realize Daniel Lavery is Mallory Ortberg. This is blowing my mind. I found some of the Toast stuff really funny but Lavery is so preachy. 😭

I think the the unspoken truth about why the word woman is verboten and not man is that the loudest and most effective activists in the transgender movement are similar to the trans woman that Ann Lawrence wrote about in her article aptly titled "shame and narcissistic rage in autogynophilic transsexualism". The people who went after Ray Blanchard also went after Ann Lawrence. If you read that article and then think about the main offenders that are constantly lying and going after Jesse you'll start to see some similarities. Nothing except complete domination and validation is good enough for this very loud and very effective group. You're not going to find this amongst trans men. I don't think trans men are the ones driving this removal of woman from the language. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18431633/

It's also a reference that means something to phish fans probably pretty similar but not for money generally.

For Jesse: a “Lot Lizard” is a prostitute (I don’t think any honest person could say that sex worker fits here) who frequents parking lots where truckers park overnight to sleep, named so for the way they knock on the doors apparently sounding like the way a lizard sounds when it walks on glass. At least in the part of New Mexico where I worked on a drilling rig one summer between college they were also all commonly understood to be addicted to methamphetamines although that was fifteen years ago now. They were considered one-level of prostitute above the ones who would wander from drilling rig to drilling rig as they didn’t even have a special name (this was the saddest group of human beings I ever saw and nobody I met ever partook but someone must have for them to be out there) and one level below the ones who worked on street corners.

I mean they specifically asked for a conservative NB person to come and talk about being a conservative NB person. It would be a dick move to spend the whole interview talking about how wrong their politics are. Not pushing back on everything doesn't mean the interviewer agrees. I thought it was a good interview because she asked questions that got honest responses. Also Katie clearly disagreed with some of what the interviewee was saying, based on the post discussion.

Fun fact: when John Lennon released the song "(W-word) is the (N-word) of the world", he was actually making a point about the words being equally offensive.

I'm declaring myself omnigender. Whatever your gender is, I'm that and more so.

"Uterus owner" is pretty clearly referring to a husband

DrSmart

Congrats on getting thru Chemo!

DrSmart

Seriously. "I'm agender because I don't conform perfectly to gender stereotypes"? Bruh you just described literally everyone ever.

Can we stop playing the anti-women game created by the misogynistic “trans-women”? These are not women of any kind, rather: “dis-men”. There’s no “cis-gender” but there is “dis-gender” - a epithet specifically for these confused people - a counter-term to prevent their appropriation of female terminology (e.g. woman, vagina, etc.) & spaces (e.g. women’s shelters). The dis-gendered are mostly dis-men. They present as disordered, disfigured, dysphoric, diseased, dysfunctional, dystopian.

“I love the New England football Patriots” takes about 5 seconds. X6 per show and you got your 30 seconds. Just call it a tick and HR won’t let Katie give you shit about it.

Most cisgendered people don’t buy into gender stereotypes as much as this non-binary person does. I’m trying to understand nb’s, but he really did seem like a gay man who rejects traditional notions of masculinity, which is… fine.

I would bet most who are unaware of this culture war wouldn't find here and there references to person vs. woman as strange or offensive. But they'd notice if there are no references to woman at all. I'm thinking especially of all the literature you're provided during pregnancy about childbirth and breastfeeding.

Oh dear. Not only is this completely biologically uninformed (the uterus is not a backpack you can simply attach…gestation involves every system of a woman’s body). It’s actually sort of sad, like people who go to extreme lengths to make themselves seem younger than they are. You cannot change your sex. You cannot change your age. These are biological realities and there is simply no alternative but to live with them and find the best life possible within those parameters.

I have a facial scar and I'm always grateful that I've never been the kind of woman who cares much about her appearance. It'd be hard to live with if I cared. So I think she's adopting the right approach here.

Excellent podcast guys. Katie, I remember when the vaping media fiasco was going on and was equally infuriated by it, wish BAR was around at the time. There is a puzzling overlap between marijuana-cures-all types and e-cigarette alarmists. Hipsters who are cool with burning dried cannabis and inhaling the fumes tuen into Mommy hall monitors when it comes to inhaling smoke-free nicotine gas.

“Agender” is a pretty unusual and unique thing to be. So if you don’t have a fully thought out explanation for why you are adopting this label (this guy sure doesn’t seem to have one), like get the fuck out of here. Fine, go be famous online or something. Oh man my anger is just bubbling up.

Cory

I cannot handle this. As a gay man this just sounds like a gay man who wants to think he’s special for some stupid reason. Ugh. Will comment further when I’ve heard the whole show.

Cory

The Lancet writers have watched too much porn. They seem to think that women are reducible to vaginas. Also - why are the necrotic holes cut into men not at least called an “artificial vagina” as one would an “artificial leg” ?

“Gender” is mostly about the chances of women being raped, impregnated, exploited, killed by men. It is not about how you do your fucking hair. That “conservative NB” kid might think that ticking a box on screen/form allows him to opt out of social gender structures, but it doesn’t.

The whole agender/NB thing makes me roll my eyes. Nobody is one dimensional. They are the ones limiting gender expression.

Feral but Housebroken My youngest daughter, who I have always called the Idiot Child, has just got herself disinherited. Fortunately, she is too smart for anyone's own good and doesn't need my pittance. If I got zero responses as a 65-year-old, I would have gotten a negative number as a 73-year-old two feet in the grave geezer. You're in so much trouble, my love, so much trouble.

Feral but Housebroken

yea I didn't get this either. It seems like there is an attempt to say that if you're a man that has traits that are traditionally thought of as feminine, then you're no longer a man? We threw out the gender baby with the gender role bath water.

rip mango juul pods. they got me through chemo.

I don’t think pronouns or just using the word “people” is the same as something like “vagina havers” or whatever. Would someone not aware of the culture war be offended by being called a “person”? I don’t think they’d read that as insulting.

I understand that when Katie said "W****" she was quoting RBG, never the less the word is insensitive and does harm to those with a vagina who aren't a W****. She should really be using the inclusive phrase Person. I frankly really have to wonder about the people that still insist on saying W****. It's almost like they are looking for an excuse to make a slur and do bigotry.

I was screaming when the NB person described themselves as different from gay men, because he takes on the feminine role, finds it easier to be friends with women, and can dress in a range from masculine to feminine ....They're literally describing most gay men.

How do we claim that women should have a special say in this issue (as Jen Psaki did to a reporter the other day) if men can get pregnant? It's all incredibly stupid.

What is this fake news about there not being any books about disappearing lesbians? The Disappearing L (https://www.amazon.com/Disappearing-Erasure-Lesbian-Politics-Cultures/dp/1438461763) isn't super famous, but I would've assumed that famed lesbian podcaster Katie Herzog had heard of it given her hobbyhorse.

Yes. There is an appealing humility there. This is someone who recognizes that their particular place on the femininity to masculinity spectrum is not interesting to anyone other than them and (maybe) their loved ones.

"They are doing the most female thing imaginable in carrying a child; how uncomfortable with femaleness can they possibly be?" I was going to say exactly this in a much more sarcastic way. To me this gives lie to the whole of current trans rhetoric.

Feel like BAR pod people would enjoy this book I just finished. Vaping/culture wars /language games. Australia's best Jewish comedian journalist. https://www.audible.com.au/pd/Puff-Piece-Audiobook/1761045083?source_code=M2MOR131091619005N&ds_rl=1252391&gclid=Cj0KCQjwkbuKBhDRARIsAALysV4oavLnONimwlX_VI14jT-eGYxDDA80spSfqEjZeFPQeRWOJAmQilYaArvbEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds

Lol I hope you are aware how many Alexas you have set with your ‘Alexa set timer for 5 minutes’ - my Alexa confirmed and followed through 🤣

The bottom line is that "woman" should not be redefined from meaning sex to meaning gender or gender identity. Once you do that, you get twisted into a linguistic pretzel that almost never ends and dilutes the coherence and accessibility of the subject matter you’re discussing. Take the term "chestfeeding." A chest is anatomically distinct from a breast. It simply is not an accurate description of the organ that lactates. If milk is coming out, you are breastfeeding, period. So the choice is either that we stick with the original, long-standing definition of woman (and allow for people to self identify as transwomen for social purposes if they want) or we unravel thousands of years of language for no reason. Moreover, the rationale for all of this is becoming increasingly murky to me. My understanding was that trans people deserved accommodation and compassion because they suffered from a debilitating discomfort with their sexed bodies. But if they are menstruating (which can be stopped with hormones) and bearing children, I'm gonna be honest: I am skeptical of their claims of debilitating dysphoria. They are doing the most female thing imaginable in carrying a child; how uncomfortable with femaleness can they possibly be? It seems more likely that they are just uncomfortable with sex stereotypes, and in that case, they can join the club. We aren't reworking the dictionary of female anatomy for that.

At first Katie’s & Jesse’s respectively war-crimes-level pronunciation of niche broke my heart, but all was forgiven when Katie said cunts ❤️. I’ve often felt the C-word should be the N-word for W-people. (We can say it, you can’t.)

Look, they seemed like a decent person but that “unicorn’s” politics were garden variety ignorant 14-year old Randian libertarianism. I realize that leftist activists (like some of the people they discussed in the rest of this episode!) are annoying and potentially bad, but that doesn’t automatically mean intellectual and morally bankrupt ideas on the right are automatically good. Presenting them uncritically is just both-sidesism, and look where that got us.

I have to admit, there is something quite cool about people who say "You can use any pronouns for me." As opposed to the annoyingness of people who are trying to create complex new rules by which you must refer to them.

lol

Katie's indifference makes perfect sense. Everyone knows chicks dig scars.

I wonder if the activist left has thought through the political ramifications for abortion rights if they dissociate abortion from the larger canon of women's rights. It was by far one of the strongest political cards that the pro-choice movement has had throughout history. How do Dems do the 'republican war on women' line if it's 'pregnant people' now?

Positivelypolarized69

I always assumed he just had an art-rock androgynous/crossdressing style thing going, but apparently "In a 2010 interview, he said he pondered gender identity 'on a daily basis' and identified as being neither male nor female". TIL.

Mazal tov!!!! 🤓

Sugaree

Jessie: "What's wrong with your face!"

Meant to register my displeasure, annoyance and frustration with use of “pregnant ppl” v pregnant women as member of would-be “gramma demo’” ;)

Sugaree

If you're looking for a non-binary trump supporter, Ariel Pink (a famous musician) seems to fit the bill somewhat

The erasure of the term woman in progressive circles is mindnumbing to me. I gave birth a few weeks ago to my second. As I was laboring in the hospital room, leaking fluids and dealing with contractions, I asked my husband how happy he was to have a penis. Now I don't view my reproductive role as a curse. It was hard but in the end I have that loveable baby. It's just the reality of my female body. Woman have been physically and socially controlled due to their bodily reality, but the control of language to talk about this is just icing on the cake. Some women don't identify as such but still give birth. Okay, great. But birth is the quintessential female experience and most still refer to female people as women. In order to be inclusive, the new language alienates (not excludes) the vast majority of women. It's aggravating, offensive, and largely just stupid. If you give birth but can't stand to see yourself in the term woman you have a you problem.

My pronouns: We The People

Sugaree

Next time I would say "my preferred pronoun is hard to pronounce for native English speakers" and leave it at that.

Anecdotal experience regarding Mandatory Pronouns: I went to PP (what else are you gonna do with tits these big/great), and he asked me my gender identity. I said woman / female to cover my bases. Then he asked my pronouns. Are the Healthcare workers gonna be gossiping behind my back?? I said "uh, regular" because I have never had to declare them. His response was "all pronouns are regular." I just left; it's hard to put into words why I found it so annoying, but I feel like having to take a social justice stance to get my junk examined is too big an ask. I'll probably just get one of those at home STI screening tests. They sort their products dimorphically. 💁🏼‍♀️

Sounds as if I am exactly what SF senior has in mind, except that I’m not moving and who is Brad or Jen?!?!?

Sugaree

I personally think we're marginally more likely to invent Brave New World style artificial wombs than to figure out a way for the film Junior to come true. Though I don't find either that likely. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-9908667/amp/Jessica-Alves-travels-Brazil-transgender-woman-womb-transplant.html

Alex Wright

It's not just trans women insisting they're female or that sex doesn't exist. There's some trans women claiming that one day they'll be able to have uterus transplants and give birth. Some even claiming they'd be able to conceive "naturally".

Alex Wright

No football!!!

Sugaree

Isn't using a W person's maiden name, deadnaming?

That's it! I want a refund! I will settle for a promise to never release the Jesse Singal sex tape.