Patrons-Only: How Andy Ngo Literally Pantsed The Rest Of The Media To Get The Wi Spa Story (Not Literally)

The yawn was perfect.

Also, just as an aside, any reference to Dana Dentata on Lil Nas X' photo on Instagram gets deleted

I can understand and appreciate the shock factor of Lil Nas X, and I get the this can be perceived as trolling Drake's Instagram post, but Lil Nas X has a history of stealing concepts from female artists; and this includes his pregnancy photo shoot. Most highly publicized would be FKA Twigs Cellophane video rip off, but the pregnant-with-an-album concept was directly lifted from a lesser known trap/metal/performance artist Dana Dentata, who has suffered a multitude of barriers breaking into the music industry. As a long time fan and follower of hers for the last 10 years, she was finally able to release a full length album titled Pantychrist and the album artwork is a beautifully photographed pregnancy photoshoot. One could argue that this isn't a unique concept, however Lil Nas X has as a standing relationship with the prosthetics artist who worked on Dana's incredibly personal and meaningful album artwork. Dana also claims to have spoken to 2 individuals who were present on the shoot and admitted that the concept was a total copy of Dana's vision. Right down to the sonogram photo, which is a shittier version of Dana's which was released months ago in anticipation of the album. To add insult to injury, Lil Nas X released the pregnancy photos literally the day before her first full-length album was released. In short, the symbolism to Dana represents her acceptance of the trauma she suffered, taking care of her inner child, healing, and finally able to give birth to the music she's always wanted to make, uncensored and unapologetic. And to Lil Nas X and his creative team, it's just a fucking joke.

"Doesn't mean actual trans women are doing this." Under gender self ID it's philisophically impossible to "pretend" to be a trans woman, of course.

Alex Wright

As a geologist, I can tell you I wouldn't even trust them with an esoteric geology story.

James_Sobotka

I'd also like to clarify as a cis white man that I am not pretending to be pregnant, I'm just really fat.

I think a lot of the objection to the LNX shoes was less about the blood and more about the whole Satan thing. I mean, if you are religious and believe Satan is a thing, something that seems like worshipping him is understandably not something you are super cool with. To me, it seemed like he did it to troll and get a reaction, and then acted all fake indignant that he got exactly the reaction that he wanted to get.

Not to mention biology. Oh wait, devil. Supernatural reproduction.

I was curious about the new Gawker and dear lord the web design is nightmarish. My high school (cir. 2006) web project was superior to that monstrosity.

“We don’t do lessons, we just talk shit” is a brilliant merch slogan!

This is a good point. I'm similarly averse to spas and the like, but I can imagine under those conditions some people might become aroused unintentionally (and involuntarily). One would think this sort of thing would be a one off! You might expect a single misunderstanding would at least prompt caution, so I'm not inclined to give this individual much benefit of the doubt given the apparent pattern

Also couldn’t it have been that Lil Nas X was pregnant with the devil’s baby if he was just bottoming for him? Maybe I misunderstood this sequence of events.

Cory

The guardian is absolutely shameless cf Luke Harding.

Cory

I am not the sort of person who would be comfortable in a nude spa or beach. But if I was in fact that comfortable with my body, how could I prevent becoming involuntarily aroused if the conditions were right? “Think unsexy thoughts!” I guess people who frequent these places could say this isn’t an issue and I’d have to believe them. (This is from an extremely charitable perspective which I think isn’t applicable here because this person seems likely to be a creep).

Cory

The initial reporting on this drove me bats. The idea that because ‘there wasn’t a known transwoman there’ meant that ‘there wasn’t actually a semi-erect penis being flashed at women and girls’ was just so, so stupid. The PROBLEM was the assumption by everyone that the women complaining didn’t have cause, because they assumed the identity of the perpetrator fit the ‘right’ group.

I call it old town chode because I’m so tired of hearing him.

They didn't need to be so rude and dismissive towards the woman who complained. And they should have at least acknowledged the possibility that the person with a hard-on in the women's was a predator and not trans at all

They’re not ‘edge cases’ Katie, and it’s not a ‘loophole’. They are potentially any sexually abusive man, and it’s a fucking highway overpass, ie something you could drive a truck through. It’s really disappointing the way you underplay the fact this whole incident proves gender-critical feminists right about self-ID. And can you please listen to your instinct that tells you not to refer to this sexual predator as ‘she’? It’s not misgendering to say that a man is pretending to be trans to get access to women’s spaces. Surely the trans community should disavow those people? Or does being ‘a woman inside’ apply only to silly superficial stereotypes like wanting to have long hair, but not to genuine observable sex differences like propensity to commit sex crimes?

I dont know the whole story, just speaking as a vaugely country fan. But he started getting attention prior to the Billy Cyrus remix. I dont think his song is any more country than, like, Metallica's or anyone else's one country-ish number. But it became a thing and country has a black performer problem so they played it. Frankly I think Cyrus got more outta LNX than vice versa. I mean Billy Ray Cyrus has been a joke for 25 years...

As I understand it, the story of Lil Nas X goes something like… Country music stations wouldn't play or chart "Old Town Road" because they claimed it was hip hop, not country. Even though a lot of modern country music they do play sounds just as much like hip hop. Miley Cyrus thought this was unfair, so she convinced her dad to feature on a re-release of the song, so that it would get more attention from those outlets.

Great episode and I am very much looking forward to what you both have to say about The Guardian’s Judith Butler debacle.

Sure, don't trust the cops completely on this (or anthing). But in this case, we have victims (all WOC, as if that should really matter, but....), we have the video, we have the uninvolved journalist "Bennett", we have two different police agencies (LAPD and sheriffs reporting two different sets of similar crimes), and we have the justice department (who oversees sex registration and presumably the integrity of prior cases that have been resolved through the courts). So yeah, there's a little more backing this than the cops.

Ehhhh. The trans person in question admits being there right? That would mean, in this case that 1) a bunch of terf-types found out when a trans person was going to be at this spa 2) went at the same time 3) coordinated a walk out 4) were lucky that this trans person also just so happened to be a registered sex offender so their terf-y protest looked legit (Terf used as a non judgmental descriptive.)

Also, I don’t think it’s so unlikely that a group of women could decide to storm out of a locker room pretending something happened. I’m not saying that’s what happened here, I suspect it didn’t, but it wouldn’t take very much planning.

I think Jesse is mostly correct on this issue. However, one thing I don’t like, is taking cops at their word. I don’t trust cops and usually Jesse and Katie don’t either. They are not trustworthy. Someone being charged with something is not definitive proof that they actually did that thing. Let’s wait for due process to take its course.

Omg, it is getting worse … live messaging as I listen. Not only transphobic, but anti-black?!?! Anyone who says “do better” earns an instant ignore from me.

Sugaree

Underrated album.

Does it mean anything that I'm kind of impressed and surprised that trans medical services weren't given an exception to lockdown rules?

Do we have any evidence that The Guardian et. al. feel ashamed at the scooping? I mean, sure 40 years ago if you're at the NYT and you find that the Washington Post or, God help ya, the NY Post betters you on a story, you feel ashamed. You go to the journo hack bar and commiserate with your buddies about how those lucky bastards beat you. Do the entities in this scenario even think they're "journalists" who were beaten by another journalist? Or do they just think of themselves as activists facing off against another activist with alternative facts? I mean its basically the Trump game. Someone contradicts you and you say "No, no, wrong, shut up." And go on about your business while your partisans cheer. As George Costanza said, "It's not a lie if you believe it." To reverse it if Andy Ngo reported something untruthful, which I'm pretty sure he has (or at least exaggerated to the point of untruth), would he be all embarrassed that the Guardian corrected him? I doubt he'd even pay much attention. I suspect Singal and Herzog are living in a world that no longer exists.

Yes, its hard to work out how to lift the taboo without first breaking it. Personally, I think that breaking it in cases where it has been abused ie sex offenders, obvious grifters etc is a pretty clear line. This can still be handled very sensitively - highlighting the issues while maintaining a recognition/distinction for actual dysphoric people. No meanness required.

I understand Katie's anxiety regarding the 'correct pronouns' to use and that there is clearly some cognitive dissonance at play here, that she feels that it's the right thing to do, but that at the same time, we're talking about a sex offender here. My take, and the take of others, is that they do not deserve it, but this is the muddle that people get into when they think that it's just about 'being kind'. These people aren't kind, they have demonstrated as much. They're taking advantage of people's kindness. They're the root cause of official stats being skewed so that crimes, including ones like these appear to have been committed by females far more frequently recently than has ever happened in the past, because they are correctly identified as being crimes caused predominantly by males. It helps no one. If a certain group wish to show what moral vacuums they are by insisting that regardless of how horrendous the crime, we *must* honour their pronouns, that's on them, but they shouldn't be able to drag decent people down with them. finally, from an essay on a related topic, which I think is definitely valid here: "Pronouns are Rohypnol. They change our perception, lower our defences, make us react differently, alter the reality in front of us. They’re meant to. They numb us. They confuse us. They remove our instinctive safety responses. They work."

Duncanm

I think this episode should be released into the wild, because it’s a really good lesson in the fucked-upness of supposedly good journalistic writing. I read The Guardian most days and am completely susceptible to the Gell-man amnesia effect. Unfortunately there are friends of mine who I cannot convince the The Guardian is fallible (and who subsequently don’t believe anything that’s not reported in The Guardian). So pls do the world a favour and set this one free.

Man, I gotta feel bad for the poor spa here. If the law says self-ID they really were caught in a bind, and the publicity is bad from all sides.

“Butt Stuff with the Devil” — coincidentally, the name of Judas Priest’s worst-selling album.

Everyone knows that - they’re talking about the state of the penis

"The Terfs (trans exclusionary radical feminists) and the so-called gender critical writers have also rejected the important work in feminist philosophy of science showing how culture and nature interact ... in favor of a regressive and spurious form of biological essentialism." - Judith Butler Wow. What an ass-about reading of the world. A lot of what passes for trans today is indeed 'biological essentialism'. Just, instead of 'I have a penis, I have to act this certain way', they say 'I have a penis and don't act the way I'm supposed to, so I must be a woman'. I was watching something on the South Australian lockdown and a mother was bemoaning their inability to get her 13 year old son to Melbourne for gender treatment. Watching it, all I could think was 'that kid would've grown up to be a big nelly bottom...' (nothing wrong with that, prefer the bottom bunk myself). Can't help but think ALOT of this trans stuff stems from homophobia. Look forward to the podcast.

What I thought was more interesting than the rant on the original video was the women milling out there with her. Basically all women know when a trans person is discreetly using the facilities and when a man is getting off on violating boundaries. It was clear to me that the women on the sides in that video had left the area due to something alarming. I also DGAF about misgendering opportunistic sex offenders who abuse self id to gain access to private women’s spaces.

This is an excellent point

JGraves

Suggestion for merch shop: 'Blocked & Reported: We don't do broader lessons, we just talk shit.' I'd buy this on a mug.

When an ostensibly straight woman can identify as 'queer', the term has become meaningless. And because these people have no vested interest in it, they have no interest in our history or struggle. Therefore, they can afford to be humourless. I'm 42, 'queer' is just the new 'goth'.

Maybe I’m just too cynical at this point, but I doubt that reporters at the guardian or slate will really feel the appropriate level of humiliation at being bested by Ngo. The degree to which their ideology devalues women and girls makes me think they wouldn’t be concerned about defending a sex offender, as long as he said he was a woman. This is California after all, where we value the “rights” of violent male prisoners over those of female inmates, for example. My guess is that they’re still seeing themselves on the right side of this story no matter what.

A frustrating listen. Sure, agreed 100% that this was a humiliating self-own by liberal media due to their dogmatic ideological blindspots, but that doesn't mean we have to go out of our way to be charitable to the hate-filled chuds buzzing around the story like flies on shit. Like, this Cubana Angel lady comes across as a genuine transphobe to me. Obviously I agree that's a term that's thrown around way too often, and that vast swathes of trans identity politics is overblown bullshit, otherwise I wouldn't subscribe to this podcast, but it's no wonder that this person was not seen as a credible primary source. Not just because she's a Christian conservative or whatever, but because she's couching her whole accusation in flagrantly, directly bigoted "trans people aren't real" hatemongering. She seems like a total piece of shit, and yet, her accusation in this case is correct! She and the other spagoers genuinely were preyed upon! Let's be honest and embrace that contradiction at the heart of the story here, and say that the media should've done their job regardless of her shittiness, instead of trying to simplify it down to "oh, she's just a conservative being treated badly, Christians are allowed to use the spa too" cutesiness. We can handle the complexity, honest! And I also struggle to see this story as any kind of journalistic vindication for Andy Ngo. Jesse lightly acknowledges it, but that culture war-addled dipshit is looking for this kind of angle in EVERY story that involves any of the various categories of people he hates, whether he's calling George Floyd a drug addict porn star, or claiming baselessly that the rape-accused sports star Benjamin Mendy is a "BLM activist" because he wore a shirt everyone else was wearing. Ngo will be digging into every case for this kind of gotcha news, regardless of whether it's true, so it's the actual media's job to do their jobs properly and report truthfully, so he can't scoop them like this. That they fucked it up this time is 100% a failure for them, but I don't see any reason to treat Ngo any differently to how you all (correctly) treated Noah Berlatsky last week - the facts back him up this time, but the dude still sucks. I dunno, man. Let's not let this pod turn into some fucking dull own-the-libs snickering session. I listen to this because I want to hear people attempting to fair-mindedly judge the internet bullshit for what it is, rather than to stick a boot into predetermined ideological enemies, and I feel like Jesse and Katie's antipathy to the liberal media types who hate them so much often makes them overly sympathetic to whoever's clowning them this week, even if those people also suck. It's not a trend I enjoy, and I appreciate Jesse's continued efforts to throat-clear and steelman the opposing side, even when it's as half-hearted as it was here. I just don't want to see a podcast I enjoy slide into some James Lindsayesque ditch.

Julius Black

Jesse's suffering from Gavin-shoutout amnesia it seems.

Erik D

At Wi Spa, the nude areas are sex-segregated. People have to be clothed in the common areas.

Haha. Remember that George Michael was also once charged with indecent exposure.

Not apparently. He had a sh*Tatort for saying he was gay and liked dick. Which by definition makes him transphobic. Because you know us gay folks really need to get over our ‘genital fetishes’ . The trans identifying men are allowed to keep their genital fetish. They just become ‘Lesbian’

Gutted you didn't call the ep Careless Wi Spa

‘Halfie’ is the funniest thing I’ve heard in a long time

One of my first thoughts when this all kicked off too. The video of a Black woman being schooled by a white man in *any other context* would have meant he was cancelled. And what happened to “Believe Woman”? Apparently it doesn’t apply where TRAs are involved.

Halfie!!!

It's interesting that Cubana angel's blackness is less valuable than Lil Nas X's blackness in terms of the oppression Olympics especially considering that Cubana angel is also likely middle class while Nas is a millionaire.

Positivelypolarized69

Blood of Jesus, it’s a penis!

The correct terminology is "a chubby"

geedubber

Can you please slow down, I’m about 5 episodes behind…..

‘A halfie’ will of course be replacing ‘a semi’ from now on.

https://youtu.be/sUpuP0pXUNA Apparently Lil Nas X has been accused of transphobia before.

You’re the best

Gabi Brahm