Patrons Only: Is Amy Cooper A Misunderstood Dog-Defender Or Literal Canadian Hitler, And Why Is Katie's Work Being Violently Repressed By /R/Medicine?

This!!!! I agree. Had the same reaction

Amy hasn’t learned a thing - like if she had put her dog on a leash and followed the rules like everyone else none of this would have happened; if she had accepted that she was doing something wrong and had followed the guy’s request she’d not be in the position she is now. She comes off as a neurotic, self centered and determined to get away with doing as she pleased. I suppose the one thing that comes out of it in her favor is that one is left with the impression that she probably would have called the police on a white guy too - or a woman or a child even- basically anyone who pointed out that she was breaking the rules - so I suppose she may not be a racist…

I thought both Amy and Christian over-reacted and failed to de-escalate despite multiple opportunities to do so. Having said that, I personally cannot stand dog owners who disobey leash laws in parks, nature trails, playgrounds and other recreational spaces. Even worse is the arrogant, entitled smug attitude when they are asked to leash their pup.

TheBariPod

Gabi Brahm

My sister’s ~3yo dog has been attacked seemingly at random throughout his life. She recently found out he was not neutered as the rescue had told her, but was in fact an intact male with undescended testicles - she had been suspicious for other reasons but the vet also told her about the tendency for neutered males to attack intact males. He is neutered now, so we’ll see if other dogs’ behavior toward him will change.

"This is quickly becoming the Bari Weiss show over here" - well, she does offer the same package as you but more efficiently (all in one lesbian and Jew) ;) In all seriousness, though, I appreciate having both of your podcasts to listen to. Hers has great production quality and is something I could potentially recommend to people who might be put off by jokes about Jesse's horse gf, but the long-running jokes on yours and the more authentic feeling are refreshing.

If you listen to Bari's pod with Kmele, she was holding the dog by the collar/leashing it by the time she was calling the cops. You can even hear the dog panting in the recording. I feel like C. Cooper could have said thanks, please don't do it again and backed off at that point to defuse the situation.

Agreed!

Couldn't she just put the dog on its leash?

It was a “threat” but a really tame one. This is safetyism. You two wouldn’t tolerate this from your adversaries. Don’t invoke it yourself.

Hey, God speaking! Would love to join your podcast to smite you.

On top of that he's just so tedious

What I found the most interesting was that all of the coverage took it at face value that Christian himself would be scared of the police to the point that it would be trauma inducing or feel like a threat on his life to him. Yet, on the video he encourages her to call the cops (I suspect because he feels he’s done nothing wrong+her dog is off leash and he wants that enforced.) Then on the other podcast, Kmele has audio of Christian at local council meetings right before this saying he wants more police/more enforcement in the park. That rather implodes the notion that he was threatened or harmed by her calling the cops. I grew up in a mixed and very low income family. I’ve seen disproportionate policing up close so I am not denying the racial and class disparities in law enforcement. That said, it’s just laughable to pretend this was “attempted murder” like it was hyperbolically framed. He himself certainly didn’t think more police in the park posed a threat to him nor was he fazed by the idea that the cops might show up. I thought Kmele’s point that it didn’t seem like Christian was aware of the potential dynamics why it would be different for him to yell at say, a man vs. a woman in a park esp in an isolated place. If a dude approached me like that in an isolated area I would be watching my back and getting away as fast as possible. TBH, while I get that Christian’s behavior is Karen like (basically functioning as vigilante leash rule enforcement), my sympathies tend to be more with his motivations because off leash dogs are a pet peeve of mine too (though for a different reason. Still, I would never confront someone about it and I certainly wouldn’t try to give the dog food or whatever.

How was Amy supposed to describe him?

I listened to both this one and the Weiss episode. I came away not really liking either of these Coopers. Chris Cooper, the guy, is the "Karen" here. But Amy Cooper clearly pulled the race card by telling Chris Cooper that she's going to call the police and tell them an African American man is threatening her. That said, the media handled the story horribly. I can certainly understand why she was afraid after hearing the whole thing. At one point, someone said (can't remember if it was Weiss or Kmele or someone on BAR) that the whole thing never really should have been a story we all know, or something to that effect.

DavidtheG

It’s weird to hear Jesse not understand how the scapegoating of Amy plays into sexist (& racist) stereotypes about (white) women’s behaviour.

You should listen to the Weiss episode. This summary by Jessie/Katie doesn't do it (or Amy) justice. Chris Cooper is the clear aggressor.

Is "African American" worse than "Black" in current lingo? I get that its vaguely archaic. "People of color" is now the high minded term in high minded stuff like the NYT, I guess. But is "African American" somehow viewed as offensive now compared to "Black"? I honestly don't know. It sounds more respectful-like to me. Heck i thought it was implemented because "Black" was viewed as mildly offensive. But I'm an old man. (This revolving door terminology thing is incredibly dumb. I mean, like gender pronouns, I'll make a reasonable effort to be respectful. But I think its nuts to get mad if someone hasn't gotten the most recent memo.)

The Amy Cooper segment/Kmele’s story does not hit me as an interesting clarification. I guess it fills in some other details, but she was still clearly trying to weaponise law enforcement, and/or use black men’s fear of police, in a racist manner. Fuck her 🤷🏻‍♂️

Why do people even suppose that White women have the power to summon murderous police down on any given Black man? Was Amy suppose to shoot or pepper-spray this frightening man? Perhaps a sudden head-butt? Her prior sexual assault experience isn’t even relevant to this kind of scenario. She evidently did the right thing. She also used the outdated “African-American” euphemism, instead of “Black” - a term which is for some people still racially charged & not understood to be recently “reclaimed.”

The thing that really drives me nuts about all the woke medicine stuff is how it all seems to have cropped up right at the cusp of the medical establishment and national institutes of health finally starting to care about the physiological differences btw males and females that impact things like response to medications or symptomology of some diseases…I’m not a medical doctor but work in biomed-adjacent basic science research, and it feels like just yesterday that the NIH finally started requiring both male and female animal models be used in experiments, so we wouldn’t be completely blindsided when a new compound that worked so well in male rodents had a drastically different effect when taken by human females in clinical trials. But I just saw today that the AMA is claiming that there’s no medical reason for sex to be listed on birth certificates…but I guess at least that means I can stop keeping track of my rats’ hormonal cycles during experiments? Because it’s a real pain in the ass

Bret Weinstein being one of the leading non-conservative covid vaccine skeptics should have been mentioned

Nels

Me too, Zoe. Me too.

jordan allen burton

Congrats to RLKH on the Daily Mail christening. That's a top tier talking head niche.

Jesse I completely agree with you that philosophy PhD candidate Twitter is one of the worst Twitter subgroups that exist. It's a group of the most entitled poorly socialized weirdos who absolutely got picked on in junior high school and instead of learning to be kind have used their new social credit to go after anyone who they disagree with. They also lie and defame people and then when called out on it instantly protect their accounts and say that they've been attacked, possibly doxed and are definitely in some form of danger. They suck!

I've kind of lost all faith in the weinsteins being good faith actors with this ivermectin and more than that with the ridiculous presidential candidacy last year.

I dunno, humanity had just landed a drone on a comet and feminism made it about the dude's shirt is precisely why reasonable people can hate feminism.

Klondike

I think with these stories it's easy to get caught up in whether we think the person who received insane social media punishments was a person we fully approve of or not, rather than whether they deserve what came to them. I think back about when scientist Matt Taylor got endlessly harassed over wearing a shirt with nearly naked pinup girls all over it, or when James Damore lost his job over an internal blog post he wrote. I personally found the shirt unprofessional, and I wasn't a fan of Damore's post, but Taylor didn't in the slightest deserve the abuse he received just as Damore certainly didn't deserve to lose his job over expressing an unpopular opinion. It's the same with Amy Cooper. We can analyze forever exactly how racist/nonracist she was, but it doesn't change the fact that she didn't deserve her whole life destroyed over this. And that NYT article that existed just to dig up dirt on her past was unbelievably inappropriate. I appreciate the Honestly podcast for reminding us of the shades of gray here, but regardless the punishment was wildly undeserved.

Community and parental expectations = how/why Jews “behave” … or don’t.

Sugaree

They're just riding bari's coattails. Like what a lazy fuckin episode. I barely skimmed through once I realized it wasn't just a straight up reaction to bari's episode like it should have been. Did they even mention her podcast? How embarrassing that we're paying for this.

My wife (an MD) says to avoid /r/medicine as it's modded by lunatics who aren't MDs.

My problem with Weinstein is the original story as I understood it was "standard liberal college professor mugged by woke mobs." But it seems clear he was never just a standard liberal college professor but always kind of an independent thinker (for good or ill). Thats fine, but it is not how I thought he was introduced to the world. (And to be fair I'm not saying he necessarily presented himself this way, but it was how the media types who wanted to use his story portrayed him.)

Someone was breaking into cars in SF and I was with a woman while she dialed 911. She was unintelligible and upset and rude to the point that the person on the other side of the phone call asked to speak to someone else and I was able to calmly explain while the woman who’s phone I was using continued to be angry at the person on the other end. This woman wasn’t even a victim or the break ins. You can’t predict how someone is going to be in an emergency especially considering their past and the circumstances.

Eh. My dog desperately wants to kill most birds, especially fat, slow moving Canadian Geese. And anecdotally speaking the birds certainly seem more concerned when she's running free than attached to me by a leash. That birders would not like unleashed dogs seems very reasonable. However, Birders are also human filth with an extraordinarily high level of incel-ism while dogs are the only thing that makes existence tolerable, so eff those bastards.

Don't make Canadian's sound so huggable. We're actually quite passive aggressive. Also do dogs actually disrupt birding? I have a Jack Russell... He'll chase squirrels, bunnies, and birds out of my garden... but he definitely isn't harming birds in any way. And sorry if the birds fly away when a dog is around, but they're likely to do that whether the dog is leashed or not. The birding aspect seems unnecessary to bring up. If people are nervous around unleashed dogs, that's totally reasonable, but I haven't heard that. They make it seem like he's protecting the poor birds, but that's just part of a hero story. Katie, I'm glad you are the type of hero who protects their dog from all the jerks in the world. Of course this isn't really the issue, but it also makes me roll my eyes.

Rambo on the Moon

I had a man threaten me once and then accuse me of being racist when I threatened to call the cops. He looked white but I guess he wasn’t, but I know from personal experience that there are Christian Cooper type misogynists in the world who throw their male size and weight around against women because they can, and then play victim when women use what counter measures they do have at their disposal - which, guess what? Is usually not their own selves, but other authorities, because women are outmatched terribly against men, and men who throw their weight against women know this and that’s why they pick on women to begin with, duh. So far as mentioning race - 911 operators usually ask for the race of the person you’re calling about, so if Amy Cooper had been assaulted before as she said, and had called police before, as I have had to, she’d know, as I know too, that race is relevant because operators ask for that information.

I am sorry for you both. Karen is a fine name and the meme has always been stupid.

OK last post: can we get a subscriber level where Jesse tells us personally who is and is not "hamming it up?"

If you guys turn a male Karen into a Christian and make it a thing, I'm going to lose my shit. The past year has been hard enough for my wife Karen.

Katie and random guy getting tied in a leash face to face is the meet cute in a movie about a lesbian (and Moose) having an existential crisis.

I recommend the Honestly interview btw Kmele and Amy. Seems like they were both horrible to each on that day. Dog shouldn’t been off leash, guy shouldn’t have threatened her and tried to get her dog with treats (???), she (horrible) used his race against him with the police which was pretty obvious, guy (and sister) posted this video and her life is completely destroyed (those death threats omg). They both played race against each other in the end. She knew it was a weapon with the cops; he knew it was a weapon online. I never have the stomach for this because I have a catalogue of my own fuckups in my brain that I cringe about daily. I know there is a larger point to be made with this story, but I want to take this off both of their shoulders. It’s too much.

LTO

Katie, humans (male and female) have permanently descended larynxes - dogs do not. Male humans have a secondary descent of the larynx in puberty (voice dropping) but dogs don’t do this either. Chances are that Moose’s bark reflects his body size, not his unneuteredness.

I think you sort of missed the point. The issue isn’t Amy Did Nothing Wrong, the issue is that the reporting on the incident was completely fucked and that someone’s life was ruined over a stupid park dispute over birds vs dogs because it was a convenient narrative for media culture war grifters. Comparing Amy to literal slave traders is exactly the unhinged response that leads to that.

Joshua M

Paul F Tompkins comedy bit Apologize for Your Dog https://youtu.be/gH6Mp16wMCM

Ya, Bret Weinstein is not anti-vaxx that much I've seen. But he may be wrong about Ivermectin, as Jessie said his political solutions are kinda silly, though no more silly than the "we'll have a dictatorship that will end in an egalitarian utopia" that all the kids are so fond of these days. So, his conclusions about the science could end up being just as bad. That said, the kind of vitriol and effort to silence him from the same people who brought us "there's NO! MF way its a lab leak and anyone who questions this is both racist and anti-science" maybe shouldn't be accepted with such credulity. Regardless, I'm glad BaRPod is staying away from it, the whole thing is too politically charged and uncertain to be worth wading in.

Klondike

The whole 90 minute Amy Cooper episode is as worthless as people who try to claim George Floyd died from a fentanyl overdose or Covid, and that the body weight of 4 officers plus a knee on his neck for 9 minutes was merely incidental. Gaslighting gets thrown around to the point of cliche these days, but it's a real textbook case of it to spend over an hour on the totally irrelevant backstories of both Coopers like any of it has the slightest bearing on the clear undeniable fact that Amy willfully sought to weaponize Christian's blackness against him. You know what's more threatening and legitimately dangerous than a mild-mannered birder who happens to be black? An unleashed dog. Amy asks us to sympathize because of her being a victim of sexual assault, but what of people who've been attacked by dogs or people like Christian who are concerned for the safety of the local wildlife? The only pertinent facts are Amy wasn't following the rules of the park - notably in a way that posed reasonable risk to others - and when Christian verbally and then nonviolently attempted to leash Amy's dog, she intended to have him killed by the police. Sure, Christian was being a tattletale "Karen", but he tellingly didn't intend for Amy's life to end; the same can't be said for Amy. None of the "new information" that Kmele and Bari ramble about changes anything about the core facts of what took place. And I'm admittedly judging based off that one episode, but I have to hard disagree that Honestly is in anyway remotely as good as BARPod - let alone better. But who knows, maybe next time Bari can share with us the untold story of how the poor misunderstood Spanish owners of the Amistad just wanted to make it big in the New World and those dastardly murderous slaves had it coming on account of their whole being black in 19-century Sierra Leone

Dan Gorry

Good grief, I had this thought, that Amy was afraid that the guy had perhaps threatened her/her dog months and months ago. We're just now talking about this? Where y'all been?

This is something many people with intact male dogs notice -- that neutered dogs are often aggressive towards them. I think many dogs don't know how to deal with the scent of an intact dog, since so many are fixed at a young age and only interact with other fixed dogs.

Christine

I think this week it genuinely doesn't matter -- only overlap is Katie's article on Bari's website does come up in both. -J

Should I listen to this or the new regular ep 1st?

Timothy Buechner

“Maybe black male Karens are Christians” -hahaha Katie should tweet that haha.

I think u guys don't realise just how dumb Bret is. He's also anti vaccination and just an all around crazy person

Cooper vs Cooper was an average neighborhood dispute type interaction. Like most of these “Karen” events, it’s been blown way, way out of proportion. And I agree, Christian is a big time Karen.

Bet she'll use a leash next time.

So idk if I’m qualified to comment on any of the rest of this b/c I haven’t heard it, but I will say my family used to have a female GSD, and she had a TERRIFYING bark. She sounded like she was about to rip your throat out; and in her case, obviously, it had nothing to do with testicles.

Susannah

Priors confirmed.

I found Amy Cooper's side of the story unconvincing. I still think she's a racist who tried to weaponize law enforcement against a black man, even with the context of the guy's previous behavior and the choppy phone connection.

Michael