Patrons-Only: Chrissy Teigen Is Victimized By Fakery And The American Booksellers Association Does "Irreversible Damage" To Itself

Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't all the studies on prenatal testosterone and brain differences only on same sex attracted people? Also I am consistently bothered by the insistence that by "filtering out" the "truly dysphoric" children that somehow makes pediatric transition ethical when we know gender atypical behavior and dysphoria are very common in pre lesbian or pre gay kids.

Justifying pulling kids out of school because parents send kids to abusive for-profit wilderness schools where kids end up traumatized or dead is…not a great argument in favor of pulling kids out of school. Taking Jesse’s side on this.

Venus Babylon

It's the Gell-Mann amnesia effect. Katie and Jesse have talked about this on the pod before, but I forgot which episode it was.

Try to look at this way: imagine that your child has joined a group/movement that continuously encourages them to go through extreme body modifications that at best will most likely cause unknown health issues (hormones) and at most extreme involves surgical removal of healthy organs and destruction of reproductive potential. And all that for what seem to be purely ideological reasons. Sure, moving is extreme. But would you consider it 'batshit' if people moved to have better access to medical care that could prevent their child from, say, having an arm amputated? Because this is the situation that the parents who don't believe (whether correctly or not) their child truly is trans are in.

I belong to a Facebook Book Club and I had no idea Irreversible Damage even existed. Someone made a post in the book club about this whole Booksellers hubbub (she was clearly against the book), which put the book on my radar. Other members were questioning if she had read it, and she said she wouldn’t because it was full of hate. What did I do? I immediately checked the book out of the library to see for myself. In my case what the OP was trying to do completely backfired.

I disagree with this evaluation. I think that Jesse has a much more nuanced view of the whole situation and is much less swayed by external circumstances or other peoples opinions.

JGraves

Did you all see the news about Substack starting a podcast network? Apparently Bob Garfield has an upcoming podcast called Bully Pulpit 👀

A.

It is a tough one. Because we also have to allow people with mental health issues make choices about how they live their lives. Even if they are adolescents. So ethically it is about balancing autonomy/do no harm/do good/justice. Unfortunately at the moment with youth transition the "do no harm" is not given enough attention. For adults I always skew to autonomy. The thing that keeps shocking me the most is how people are willing to forget the balancing of these basic principles in the face of youth transition. So much for evidenced based medicine.

Agreed. I think everybodies arguments, not just conservatives, would be better if they understood that there is a fundamental difference between gender identity/expression and sexuality. I guess that the whole LGBT+QIA thing doesn't help straight people distinguish the two.

Katie is living in reality. I feel like Jesse is ever-so-slowly waking up to the proportion of trans activist rhetoric that is literally just made-up, bad-faith bullshit.

I'm not sure whether they do. And I'm not sure whether they know if they do either. ( Personally I think most just grab onto whatever underlying reasoning they can to justify whatever policy is currently the cool thing to support.) And if people did believe in simple biological material reasons then shouldn't they support looking for medical fixes less drastic than currently? Like a pill that rebalances brain chemistry to help you accept your current body rather than the super invasive, dangerous surgeries and body reshaping hormones that are the current treatment?

Hear! Hear!

Re: the Blackout error. This totally happened because the metadata ended up in the wrong line of a spreadsheet. Automating will just make this worse but good try. Source: worked in publishing.

But isn't the girl brain boy body and vice versa invoked by people who do mean it very literally as a material explanation for the subjective side of ppl feeling they are in the wrong body. Much like how people say depression is a lack of dopamine in the brain or whatever.

Jordan Bickett

We got more buy in for a therapist than activities, or we likely would have gone the same route. We are encouraging activities and doing stuff instead of extended time to miserably ruminate.. Probably should clarify for anyone needing it that the therapy was for self harm and other concerning behaviors (that often accompany these situations), not the gender issues, but have seen the intensity go down with the building of distress tolerance skills, and learning better ways to communicate on our part.

Sorry, but that “advice” is absolutely batshit - MOVE? Also Katie saying they can’t comment because they don’t children? That’s not how this works.

Thank you. Constantly being monitored for my “gay behavior” was hell and the idea of my parents moving (??!) because of it is almost hilariously terrifying.

I (lifelong liberal) literally only bought Shrier's and Ngo's books because of the attempts to ban them. My instinct has always been that if someone is attempting to hide something away, there's probably at least some truth to it that the activists are afraid might get out. Also, fuck you, I'm an adult, and I am the only person empowered to decide what I can and cannot read.

OT: I think Katie’s wife has either been excommunicated or not showing up to her white people group. You had one job, Katie’s wife.

LTO

Any parent worth their salt knows that anything you do for a teenager in this situation needs to have as much buy-in as possible from the kid but that sometimes kids will also not like the limits that they need. A balanced, thoughtful approach is necessary. One thing we started doing was taking our son’s phone at night- which when he as a clear head is something he supports. I don’t care if it’s trans influencers or porn or Discord or obsessively reading poll data—- my son is healthier, happier and more productive when I block off the internet and take his phone and laptop at night so he can get some damn sleep. That he knows it’s for the best and appreciates it in the morning doesn’t stop him kevetching about it at night sometimes but that’s being a parent. I can’t do that for my nieces except when they sleep over but I’m convinced that unlimited access to the internet from very young ages at all hours is NOT a good thing for them. There are almost no good therapists available for kids in this situation. Believe me, I’ve looked. I’ve ended up spending the money that might have gone to a therapist on things like adaptive swimming, horseback riding, camps etc. We are saving up our pennies for a trip my son wants to take. I’m not pulling him out of school but I am encouraging him to take a gap year so he doesn’t rush off to a campus before he has a firmer sense of himself. I’m still looking for a therapist who doesn’t have an ideological bent one way or the other and who won’t think their job is to convince me that somehow 5/6 of the kids in my (extended and immediate) family were all “born in the wrong body”. We aren’t in a position to move for a mix of reasons but TBH, I’ve thought that getting out of our hyper woke area wouldn’t be the worst idea in the world for a mix of reasons.

There’s a wide range of wilderness programs out there. You are referring to one type. My kids attend wilderness programs which are more like Outward Bound or scout camp (but not affiliated with BSA). They aren’t at all dangerous or harmful or centered around reforming “troubled kids”. I send them for recreation and to pursue hobbies (like archery and horseback riding). Plus the time away from technology and online peers is an admitted bonus. I certainly didn’t get to do this type of thing as a kid (grew up without any money) and I’m glad my kids have the opportunity. One of the programs my son goes to is one weekend/2 nights a month learning wilderness skills. He looks forward to it all month. The other one he’s going to this summer is a small group paddling camping trip- basically like summer camp but without cabins or a craft hut. I assumed that the programs Katie was talking about are like these and not abusive shitty scams.

I'm in a tough spot where I agree with much that is said about the effects of trans social media on kids, especially teenagers, and I'm concerned about how widespread it is among girls. But I also remember my parents telling me as a high schooler that I wasn't actually gay, just following a trend that all my friends were following, taking too much influence from tv shows with androgynous male characters, getting bad influences from unmoderated internet forums, etc. and forbidding me from speaking about or acknowledging my sexual orientation in any way in the hope that taking the "fun" of being gay out of it would make me give it up. If an Abigail Schrier-type had told my parents in 2007 that taking away the Internet and pulling me out of school and my friend group would make me stop insisting I was in love with a girl, they might have considered it. I remember family vacations from that time and how miserable they were, because my parents were constantly watching me for signs I was still "pretending" to be gay (which, yes, included some gender nonconformity). I can say for certain if I had decided I was really straight after a year of being stuck in a room with my family's disapproval, it would have been a decision couched in resentment, desperation, and anger. As frustrated and sad as I often feel watching young people replace their personalities, ambitions, and opinions with an internet-approved gender identity, I agree with Jesse that compromise is going to do more to dissuade kids from doing things to their bodies they can't go back on than punishing them by taking their whole lives away. (And that is the goal, right? To prevent kids from doing "irreversible damage," not to prevent them from doing *anything* that looks too much like experimenting with gender presentation or identity?) I believe there are kids for whom getting a change of environment can be extremely helpful, but that there has to be buy-in from the kid.

Katie talking about parents sending kids to "wilderness camp" as if that's something clearly neutral and harmless... so many of the ~troubled teen~ camps and programs are dangerous, scams or breeding grounds for abuse. the idea of kids being sent to these because they're depressed and in a trans phase is disturbing.

suz

Great episode, I particularly enjoyed the conversation about mental illness, body dysmorphia etc. because I find people aren't making these connections unless they are have firsthand experience with people going through this gender stuff and have to go down the rabbit hole. It's gratifying to hear others recognize these connections. For a while I got the feeling Jesse wanted to get away from this topic, but this conversation is still desperately needed. Otherwise bright and informed people take it as a truth that blockers and instant affirmation are totally safe and the best/only way. It's not ok that the activists pushing their agenda are convincing people with very little evidence. Keep it up Jesse and Katie, love the pod since day 1.

Who'll take over from Jesse, though? Someone has to do what he's doing, otherwise all this stuff will just get waved through and we'll have thousands of young adults wondering why the hell no-one was paying attention.

Happy to be a Patreon for your podcast, keep up the great work. Katie, I really enjoy your work as well. -Mark

MarkK1968

Having listened to Rogan for years, I think he was trying to send you the same message.

MarkK1968

I came on to say this. You see this "born in the wrong body" type thinking (used literally) on twitter/youtube/tiktok etc. I was recently shocked by comments on a detransitioner on tik tok...quite a few kids saying things along the lines of "what? how did this happen? I thought you were in the wrong body?"

Well of course you’d say that…. We’re gonna need to have a 1on1 interview with your 2 year old who I’m sure has a firm grasp on language and is very articulate-you can wait outside k thanks

Related to that: why does the left completely disregard their body positivity stuff when GD is involved*? And can that be changed? i.e. "why do you want to become a boy? Your body is just fine as it is!" Maybe I'm too optimistic but I feel like it can. Especially if you somehow can work in blaming corporations/rich people along the lines of "pharma companies like transgendersim because want to get people hooked on having to take pills their whole life." *My own crackpot theory is that as the left has retreated to conservatism in regards to actual sex, they needed to find a weird sex-related thing to freak out the squares and transgenderism was it.

I'm curious how many two year olds you've actually got a close relationship with Jesse to think it's anything other than parental sexist beliefs that could mean a two year old displays behaviour of the opposite 'gender'. Speaking as the mother of a two year old, it's utterly laughable

Another great posting. I really appreciate the way the two of you explore nuance even between yourselves as you discuss topics. Thanks!

There are plenty of flaws with Shrier's book. As a trans person I found Jesse's critique was pretty balanced and accurate. There's alot that has simply not been fleshed out with adequate research. For Shrier to ask the questions is totally valid but anecdotal evidence alone leaves her argument a bit lacking. Exploring detransitioners is important to be sure but Shrier's bias on this topic is obvious and I'd rather see this explored by someone like Jesse, who is waaay more qualified to discuss the topic. The increase in teen girls identifying as trans and how social contagion affects that is important and I personally believe that Shrier expresses valid concerns and it's a shame that the book relies entirely on anedote.

Shrier’s advice makes total sense if you see there being a distinction between people who are truly gender dysphoric and everyone else dragged into the whole theory of gender identity. And if you view the latter as a cult or religion then you would react in a similar fashion as some of these parents, which is to take them as far away as possible from that toxic environment. And yes, the whole teaching preschoolers that they should have ‘an innate sense of gender identity’ is all part of that. It almost being treated as a lifestyle choice, actresses doing photo shoots with breast binders, there was an advertorial in pink news of someone who identifies as *non binary* having a mastectomy. It’s being treated as normal and something that we should all be applauding. It’s all utterly insane.

Duncanm

I was curious about Teigen so I read a story about the whole thing and then the comments. I’m guessing the suitable punishment for Teigen, who told someone to commit suicide, is basically to try to push her to the brink too?

LTO

The whole question of whether to remove a troubled teenager from his environment in order to eliminate the temptations that are around (usually friends who are also into risky behavior) is incredibly difficult. I would know: I was such a kid. I fucked around with drugs/alcohol/tobacco when and got sent (at age 15) to a “therapeutic” boarding school—which actually was a very good and healthy environment for the most part—and then after “graduating” from that program (1.5 years later, at age 16), I went on to another boarding school. Problem is, the latter was against my very strongly stated wishes, but my parents were worried that since the same temptations were still there, the behavior would follow. Anyway, it’s a long story involving yet another boarding school AND a wilderness program, but at the end of it, I still never got my shit together drugs-and-alcohol-wise until I was in my mid-20s. At that point, I guess it was some combo of growing out of it and finally developing some sense. I don’t know if being sent helped or hurt or what—but I genuinely think it MIGHT have saved my life. I’ll just never know. The moral of this story is that there isn’t anything even approaching a failsafe approach to a kid who’s determined to make terrible choices, but people should know that sending your kids away WILL have unpredictable consequences. I don’t blame my parents; I don’t know what I would’ve done in their situation, because I was completely out of control. I’m fine these days—very happy and doing well—but I’ve got some psychiatric shit that I deal with (anxiety mostly, in various forms, and it’s under control) that I think stems, at least in part, from the traumatic experience of suddenly leaving home against my will at 15 years old and everything that followed that. So that’s my PSA for everyone, lol. If you’re raising [a] child[ren], good luck to you! I don’t know how people do it.

Edward A.

the jack turban thing points to a bigger problem with the New York Times. why isn't new york times fake news? if everyone who is an expert in their field says "i don't know about the other topics, but on the topic I am an expert in, the NYT gets things exactly wrong"

I found a lot of Shrier's book compelling and concerning, especially as a lesbian who can remember being anxious and feeling like I never fit in as a teenager, and married to an androgynous lesbian who, if she grew up in this current climate, would most certainly have been told she is trans. People ask her pronouns all the time. But my biggest issue with Shrier's book is her 'mothers know best' message, and the way she seemed to conflate gender identity and sexuality as playing out in the same way, like young people cannot possibly understand the implications of gender identity AND sexuality. I agree with her arguments about gender identity, but not sexuality. I knew from a young age I was a lesbian and I grappled with that, and my mother's resistance to it from the time I tried to come out to her at 10 years old. My mother most certainly didn't understand my sexuality better than me despite her insistance that she did, and a lot of my mental health issues as a teen stemmed from actually trying to listen to her and wish/pretend that I wasn't gay...fast forward 20 years and I'm happily married to a woman. Point is, I feel like conservatives like Shrier's arguments would be more convincing if they didn't throw sexuality and gender identity in the same bucket..

I saw Abigail Schrier's book on the shelves of a Target in CA over 4th of July weekend.

Manzell Blakeley

Agree with Katie that many people use "girl brain in a boy body" literally. Gina Rippon's book The Gendered Brain is a good overview of the development and promotion of those beliefs and where they are wrong, either entirely or partially. Also, I would like more explanation about what a two-year-old boy is actually feeling when someone says they "feel like a girl". Preferably one free from sexist stereotypes. There must be a definition of this if there is an emerging industry dedicated to diagnosing it and treating it, so what is the feeling?

My problem with Shrier’s book is not that I don’t trust the veracity of these anecdotes. I’m sure many of them are told accurately. It’s that she doesn’t prove in any way that these anecdotes represent a significant trend. She should have either done some more research or waited for that research be done elsewhere. It does seem like bad journalist to not interview any of the actual kids. Also I agree with Jesse that that advice is absurd. Most families do not have the capital to just up and move somewhere. That whole passage was dumb as shit.

Abigail Shrier was recently interviewed by Nick Gillespie on his Reason podcast.

Jo Lynn

Did Jesse read the book? Use to be always boys, now it’s predominantly girls. If the kid threatens to kill themselves don’t do anything against what they say? Peer groups have always driven these phenomenons, ie cutting, anorexia. Of course you’d want to separate them from their idiot peer group. There are thousands of desistsors so there is more than anecdotal evidence. Tavistock has seen a 4000% increase in girls claiming to be trans. Katie please read the book and correct no reading retention boy.

Jesse, I just want to say how much I appreciate the way you always insist on sticking to facts and subtlety no matter who you are speaking with or how much easier a convenient fiction would make your life. I’m sure it wasn’t comfortable to tell Joe Rogan that sometimes trans children should probably transition (especially when the people who would otherwise support that position hate you and give you no credit for stating this is appropriate) or to push back on your best friend to insist on nuance on behalf of people who certainly don’t extend you the same courtesy. Anyway, just want to say I really appreciate that about you even though I don’t believe a horse can give meaningful consent.

I have clinical depression and anxiety, and it does bother me a bit that trans activists insist that calling gender dysphoria a mental illness is grossly offensive. Many people will deal with mental illness at some point in their lives. A mental health diagnosis is not a personal attack on you. Gender dysphoria entails feeling profound lasting distress about your body and role in society, and currently, lines of treatment include medicalizing the situation (much more common at the moment) and/or seeking out psychotherapy to work through stress, trauma, and your emotions and behaviours. Any other condition with those characteristics (and indeed, there are several) would be considered a mental illness. Mental illness is not particularly fun and can be debilitating, but so can gender dysphoria. If it weren't so taboo to criticize the trans rights movement, I wonder if we'd see more people calling this ableist, particularly since many people in the social justice world want to destigmatize mental illness.

Trans-deprogramming horse farm is a new one. Calls to mind the movies about cult members being kidnapped and deprogrammed which were a thing in the 80s.

What’s the email for the personal ads? Asking for a friend.

Ok Katie, i trust you with my hypothetical grandchild. Jesse not so much.

Grace M-Thérèse

One thing I haven't been able to find out is whether the books the ABA sends out are selected by the ABA or whether publishers pay the ABA to be included. If it was the latter, Regnery Publishing (either intentionally or unintentionally) launched one hell of a marketing campaign. After the controversy blew up the book jumped to #47 on the Amazon bestseller list. The controversy landed Shrier an appearance on Friday's episode of Tucker Carlson. Following the appearance on Tucker Carlson the book is at number #4. If the goal was to prevent people from reading the book, the people who made a big stink about about the ABA sending it out failed spectacularly. Nothing seems to get people interested in reading a book more than people trying to ban it.