Episode 73: Jesse Goes On Rogan, A Racial Nichols Incident, And Drama On Lolita Twitter

Finally got to listening and hot damn. If I ever get cancelled, I want someone like Ms. Willis in my corner.

R.S.

O

Joolz

"hooked-nosed cockroaches" earned you another year of subscription.

Jesse said that the public/internet apologies that we see (such as Lovely Lor's) are "religious." It's true that these exercises in group-identification remind one of an auto de fe... but there are also secular versions, such as the Communist "struggle-session." As opposed to a "religious" thing, these self-flagellations might be best seen as the result of authoritarianism - a theme which is found across religion, secular life, & the political spectrum.

Yente is the matchmaker in Fiddler on the Roof, which is probably where the misconception comes from. Lolita in the book dresses like a preteen of her time and place, i.e. sometimes in crinoline dresses. It always seemed to me there couldn’t not be a connection to the fashion movement’s name.

It's not ok to steal from prisoners especially not the way they sit.

vorbei

That's the funniest part that they missed. Joji aka Filthy Frank did plenty of "offensive" content and he is the real reason that any of us heard about the Harlem Shake. The song is great, but his silly video is the reason it went viral.

Orenthal

Go to their show page and use the message feature

I hear most of the spike in murders over the past couple years has been due to people of color liking instagram posts, followed closely by cases of people following a wrong account on Twitter. This doesn't get talked about enough.

The other thing about the Harlem Shake meme is that it has a very specific origin, it comes from a Japanese American artist called Joji (although he was known as Filthy Frank at the time.) Another wrinkle in the idea that any one culture can claim "ownership" of this meme - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harlem_Shake_(meme)

DrSmart

So, I am an anime/manga/JRPG fan but I'm not going to excuse darker aspects of the industry. In Japan, it isn't as universally taboo as in the US for someone to get turned on by something like an anime character who looks 12 or 13. The overwhelming majority of Japanese people would object to it (or at least think it should be more regulated), but some subcultures can have more of an attitude that cartoons are a "responsible outlet" for someone who's attracted to kids. Simple possession (no intent to distribute) of non-virtual child pornography was not illegal until 2014. Many prefectures criminalize sex with a child (someone under 18) in some form or another. There are other laws against, e.g., a teacher having sex with students no matter what people's ages are. Lolicon is a broad term that means anything involving a man or woman getting aroused by a visual depiction of someone who looks like a preteen girl. It can mean someone who's not underage but looks younger than she is, though the fandom doesn't usually worry about a character actually being old enough. I've noticed various forms of patriarchy bullshit in some fan spaces: like people think loli is okay but get offended by an adult woman receiving oral sex.

I've noticed this not just in Katie but in a lot of young-ish people — It's increasingly common to elide the "T" when it occurs in the middle of the word, especially when followed by a terminal "N" sound. Thus, "button" becomes "buh-'un'", "curtain" becomes "cur-'un", etc. I find it vaguely annoying but I love Katie so I'll give her a pass.

"prison culture"

I spent my twenties in fandom spaces adjacent to the lolita community, and let me just say the ruthlessness and drama-mongering was legendary. Back in my day when shaming looks was a-ok it was all about who was too fat to wear burando or poking fun at ‘itas’, so I’m not surprised to learn the community has adapted to the self-righteous nastiness of our time. Never expected to encounter it in Barpod, but good to hear the community is still its old vengeful self.

Lor's response to Tyler sounds like an abuser victim defending their abuser. "It's not that bad, I deserved it..."

Gavin

Also they said it has nothing to do with the book but the term "lolita fashion" absolutely originated from the book.

John Smith

The Rachel Nichols story was appalling if her version of events is accurate. Appalling and quite illegal. She should sue as should anyone in her situation.

Katie -- as a resident of PhinneyWood, I have to tell you, the word is pronounced Water Foun-tin, not Water Fount 'un.

The dismissal of ‘Lolita’ as “that awful pedophilic book” by the cited Reddit writer was as embarrassing an example of moronic ignorant moral censure as anything discussed in the videos.

Why on earth would Katie trust a member of such a controversial “community” to provide an unbiased description of Lolita subculture? Originating as a feminist rebellion? Third Wave revisionist garbage. Only anti-“Western” moral relativists could spin Japan’s rigid gender roles and sexualization of young girls, obvious to anyone who’s seen a thirty second anime clip, as “progressive.” If Katie dug through the woke bullshit to some critical commentary, maybe she’d have discovered the Lolita “community’s” disturbing relationship to lolicon. There’s a reason Jesse found this stuff disturbing. It’s the latest development in a fifty year history of academic leftist pedophilia apologia (“children’s liberation”). See the recent Gabriel Matzneff backlash, during which France’s intellectual elites, godfathers of the long march through American institutions, are finally being held accountable for their literal and figurative crimes. You could hear their influence on the craven subject of Katie’s investigation: “sex positivity,” “kink” acceptance, etc. is Foucault translated by contemporary feminist “scholars.” Anyway, the Lolita “community” has nothing on knitting and women’s erotica. Kathrine Jebson Moore documented the former in a trilogy of Quillette articles (“A Witch-Hunt on Instagram”, “Instagram’s Diversity Wars Revisited”, “Knitting’s Infinity War, Part III: Showdown at Yarningham”) and Jamie Palmer wrote one about the latter last year (“Romance, Race, and Retribution”). Incidentally, it’s hard to ignore how the “communities” are overwhelmingly female. If Gender Studies were a valid discipline, there’d be a body of literature on how this regressive new religious movement is mostly a women-led phenomenon.

not Jacob, he came later, didn't you watch the Brad Neely vid?

Abraham is asked to sacrifice Isaac

I laughed and thought RIGHT when Jesse said nope to a 20 minute video, but thought I'd watch and little, ruin my YouTube algorithm, and once I got past the visual, it's GOLD. Worth every minute. I would love a transcript. I did take a look at Lovely Lor's Instagram and have to say, there's a creepy aspect to this which I cannot get past.

JulieDee

I just watched the whole video from Tyler Willis. I’m a homo and I still want to marry her, even though she scares the fuck out of me like Hessie said in the episode. I’m saving this video to study and remember all of her points on why Lor’s apology is a bad precedent because the logic of the video’s critique could be applied to many public self flagellations. So good and so smart and witty.

Aw, I loved Edith Ann

And Katie's Jewish banker mascot, at the end!

As a couger-ish sort, I salute you.

All the pun points to Cuddling of the American Mind. I just wanted to offer up “Robin the Cradle DiAngelo” and “Ibram XXX Kendi” if anyone needs a pseudonym.

Problematic Bisexual Loveseat

Episode is bringing back horrible memories of having to do all a colleague’s work in mid-late 90s for reasons discussed in re Rachel Nichols. I complained all the time and problem was recognized by everyone in our office but person in question. I was the only one stuck with the excess work, however, because we shared a satellite office. Our boss would not even talk to or assign work to her, leaving me to do it. Presume I’d get fired today for even hinting at problem.

Sugaree

The Taylor/Nichols thing reminds of an episode of All in the Family where Mike had to struggle with his feelings on affirmative action when he was competing for job with black candidate.

Didn't see the twist coming on the Loli thing. Also would just like to point out that Jesse culturally appropriated the hindu practice of sati that was cruelly suppressed by british imperialist and also made an islamophobic comment about sharia law.

Wooooow, I hope no one accepted that half-hearted apology. Pathetic

I was thinking exactly this same thing - Tyler For Host!

Can I suggest two terms for the dating service? Single Straight Man: A Jesse Single Single Straight Woman: A Straightie Herzog

there were a few places I laughed out loud. If I still had a twitter account “Kawaii Mussolini” would be my handle forever.

Is there a reason that the higher ups--tenured faculty, editors, upper management--don't evaluate their jobs based on the need for diversity and step down? Many of them rose up during the decades of even more profound racism that favored their promotions for being white men. Or is it just the positions that don't change their paychecks and success that should be used to increase diversity (and as a corallary lower the chance of white people and men from being able to have positions?). Not denying the fact that many fields are too white and male relative to the population, but do get tired of higher ups using only others jobs and not their own to change this.

Asians also squat. It's almost like the obvious way to sit without a chair and not a pillar of a certain culture.

vorbei

(Also objectively the best-dressed, honestly the fashion is pretty fun)

Lol I realized I was not Joe's target audience when the commenters on his subreddit were like "the first two hours were rough but the last 1.5 hours they get into some deep interesting shit." That "deep interesting shit" was the shrooms+santa section. Lol apparently the replication crisis and p-hacking isn't deep but speculation about the history of shrooms is. Joe has interesting people on but this was my first time actually listening to JRE and I think I'll stick with listening to the interesting people in other venues.

Double icronic because these clothes are western style.

vorbei

I had a couple friends in high school who wore gothic lolita full-time, which made them comparatively the best-dressed people in our high school cohort of unwashed anime nerds. Totally loved this episode, what an unexpected deep-dive into a weird and unique subculture.

Jesse you did a great job challenging Joe and dictating the conversation!! he doesn't make it easy but you need to do that otherwise he would be talking about animals and hallucinogens for even longer and the show would be boring. more guests should challenge him too, they can be so meek and deferential to him where he doesn't deserve it

suz

As a corollary: Former RNC chairman Michael Steele was on Left, Right &Center a while back. He told a story about having some GOP rep on his radio show. The GOP rep at one point told him the reason the RNC had appointed Steele to lead was that Steele was black. Everybody on LRC was like "oh what an awful thing to say". The funny part is when he got that position Obama had just taken office. At the time all my left wing friends said things like "You idiot right wingers hired him because you desperately wanted a black guy to oppose Obama."

Yeah I'm pretty obsessed with her right now--can't wait for her book to get here.

I am still confused. How do I place a personal ad on Patreon?

Francesca Langer

Regarding the squat pose, I've always heard it referred to as the "Slav squat" and associated it with Russian guys in Adidas tracksuits. I had no idea that people associated it with rap culture.

It felt like I was listening to a hostage video. Super chilling.

Curse you both I just watched that whole Tyler Willis video. Honestly though, she was so captivating I couldn’t stop. I was utterly entranced by the bizarre juxtaposition of the crazy outfit and sharp news reporter cadence. This was truly an artistic experience.

The re-education camp Lolita confession was creepier than sπi+. If this is the route the world is taking, I'm glad to be an aging boomer and will hopefully die before it engulfs us all.

sorry sweaty but ackchually, it was Bill Clinton who invented the rap squat - proof: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BqIwtQAIYAEl1E_?format=jpg

I did a literal LOL when Jessie dropped the “hook nosed cockroaches”

I think the issue was Nichols said the quiet part aloud.

As a person of Japanese ancestry, I'm totally offended by the appropriation of my culture by all the western Lolita Fashionists and I want them all to apologize for existing.

An important point about Nichols/Taylor you guys didn't mention - - according to Nichols in the conversation, the hosting gig was *in her contract. *

Get Helen Joyce on your podcast!

Way to mischaracterize Joe's points about Alex Jones, Jesse. You don't exactly have a time constraint on BAR. Maybe go back and listen to what he said because I don't think in the moment you captured what he was saying.

I think both opinions aren't right. It's neither a sex thing nor feminist. It goes more in the direction of cosplay.

vorbei

Who would play Jesse? He has very distinct features and not everyone can play him. Maybe they use CGI.

vorbei

Just here to say that I was listening to this one a flight, and right when you all dropped in the “Harlem Shake” clip we hit a patch of turbulence.

I want a "Jesse gets horrified by Japan" spinoff podcast

I would start watching the Daily Show / Last Week Tonight / Full Frontal again if Tyler became the new host. I see she’s let her Twitter go stagnant since 2018, but she certainly left it on a strong note ending with the “Schrödinger’s Sissy” video.

New to the podcast, I take it?

Michael

That description of Lolita fashion in Japan is beyond disingenuous; it wasn't a feminist movement to avoid the male gaze, but a fashion trend to appeal to the very prominent pedophilia in Japan, as evidenced by much of its anime (including its hentai) and the fact that child pornography was only made illegal in the country in 2014. What ridiculous biased revisionism. To clarify: I'm referring to the description Katie quoted, not accusing Katie or Jesse of anything.

Michael

Putting on my tinfoil hat for a moment and just pointing out that a Law and Order: Hate Crimes show is coming out soon, did Jesse stage an antisemitic hate crime in order to get an episode about him? Just asking questions! (plus, the more inane conspiracy theories we can get going about Katie and Jesse, the more likely they are to register on Alex Jones' radar).

Coming soon: "The Emperor's New Dick", a story about a brave, fashion-forward trans monarch brought to you by Jesse Soyboy Singal and Katie Herzog. Slate calls it a "war crime." The New York Times calls it "deeply offensive, especially for the scene in which a Mexican family uses barbecue sauce, egregiously misrepresenting Latinx culture." Chase Strangio has called for the destruction of all footage of the show. Coming soon to Patreon, exclusively for the $1000/m and up tiers.

Theyre dolphins actually

The Lolita thing was creepy when I saw Lily Tomlin do it on Sesame Street and it's still creepy now.

Caleb Wilkins

Regarding Katie's orca suggestion, I agree, orcas are the best. However, orcas are whales and are therefore fatphobic, so that's out of the question.

The problem with what Nichols’s said is that even if we recognize the trend there is no reason to believe that Taylor specifically was chosen to host the finals because she’s black. Nichol’s is not a mind reader and Taylor is doing just as well as she would. That is to say: poorly. They both such and TNT has the far better broadcast.

I had to stop listening when we got to the Lolita bit. What trivial bullshit.

Manzell Blakeley

It's a strange contradiction that it's thought of as a good thing that firms hire based on diversity, but it's a bad thing if you acknowledge the success that philosophy is having in the workplace and point out that someone was hired based on diversity, even though that is supposedly the thing they wanted.

Something that I don’t think either of you caught with the Rachel Nichols thing was that it seems like this wasn’t a “I was passed over for a promotion” thing but a “I was DEMOTED” thing. You mentioned that they had split hosting duties on The Jump and the “go do the Doris Burke” thing was ESPN trying to take the job she already had so Maria Taylor could host full-time. She meant by “don’t take my thing” VERY literally because ESPN was actively trying to re-assign her to a job she didn’t want.

that's crazy man. have you ever done DMT?

Best pod

I love Blocked and Reported

i subscribed from jre