Suing the CIA Over MKUltra
Added 2024-08-05 05:01:46 +0000 UTCOA1057
We’re giving ourselves a break this week from Trump, the Supreme Court, and all things 2024 to indulge in one of Matt’s all-time favorite subjects: CIA mind control experiments! In this extra-carefully-researched episode, Matt breaks down the history of the federal government’s MKULTRA program to fund research in brainwashing, mind control, and LSD on unsuspecting U.S. and (for some reason) Canadian citizens, as well as the inherent legal issues in trying to sue the CIA for something you can’t remember and for which most evidence has been destroyed. Why was the CIA funding a sadistic mad scientist in Montreal, and is there any hope of justice for the families of his victims today?
BOOKS
Poisoner in Chief: Sidney Gottlieb and the CIA Search for Mind Control , Stephen Kinzer (2019)
The Search for the Manchurian Candidate: the CIA and Mind Control, John Marks (1979)(link goes to full text on CIA website)
The Devil's Chessboard: Allen Dulles, the CIA, and the Rise of America's Secret Government: David Talbot (2016)
CHAOS: The Truth Behind the Manson Murders, Tom O’Neill (2020)
LEGAL PROCEEDINGS
“PROJECT MKULTRA, the CIA’s Program of Research in Behavioral Modification,” (transcript of joint Senate hearing)(8/3/1977)
Judgment dismissing former Deputy U.S. Marshall Wayne Ritchie’s claims against the CIA in Ritchie v. U.S. (N.D. CA 2005)
ARTICLES
ANATOMY OF A PUBLIC INTEREST CASE AGAINST THE CIA, Joseph Rauh and Jim Turner, Hamline Journal of Law and Public Policy (Fall 1990)
MK-ULTRA: Quebec high court says U.S. has immunity in Canada | Montreal Gazette (10/3/23)
CIA Denies Conspiracy Theory That It Used MKUltra on Trump Shooter, Gizmodo.com (7/28/24)
“After Learning of Whitey Bulger LSD Tests, Juror Has Regrets,” PBS (2/18/2020)
“Before He Was the Unabomber, Ted Kaczynski was a CIA Mind Control Test Subject,” Washington Post (6/11/2023)
PODCASTS & DOCUMENTARIES
Brainwashed, Canadian Broadcasting Corporation (2024)
Madness, WBUR (2020)
The Sleep Room: CIA-funded experiments on patients in Montreal hospital (1998) - The Fifth Estate (CBC)
Wormwood, Errol Morris, Netflix (2017)
Comments
Hell. Yes. In a previous life I took an online immigration law course from Matt; he’s just as magnetic as a professor.
Status Quo Level Thing
2024-10-29 04:38:12 +0000 UTCI'm older liberal GenX. Was considered radical because I took Feminism 101 under Bettina Aptheker in the late 80's (and Angela Davis was a panelist for my oral exams at UC Santa Cruz, but I digress). MKU was a part of history at the time via a book whose name escapes me, but was a history of LSD. The experiments were noted but information was limited, and the book was a history of LSD, not the CIA. So I'm heartened that folks like Matt are highlighting new examinations. The value of LSD is so diminished by this obvious and sadistic experimentation. Great discussion, can't wait to dig into the show notes. Matt, you're definitely a person I'd love to have a beer with if you're ever in my neck of the woods. You mentioned some JFK conspiracy feelings and I trust your opinion, so please, what are the top three books you'd recommend on the subject? While I understand reading a variety of perspectives is usually important, there's so many nutjobs and disinformation agent narratives I don't know reliable from not. Ironic that I know next to nothing about an event that shaped my entire political life, being born in '67, because I've no easy way to discern reliability in a complex narrative. Cheers and thanks! PS Also with Matt on the power of hypnosis, but I use directed meditation. Some people call it magic. It's all about harnassing the power of your subconscious, and that too is a much longer discussion. But it definitely worked for me with some really rough brain and body disability, to the point where I'm very near normal and healthy. Think Pangborn, the basketball player in the first Dr. Strange movie. I have so much commentary on that experience...
WorkForBetterPrepForTrouble
2024-08-06 18:40:27 +0000 UTCA deep dive on the Satanic Panic and recovered memories would be great too.
Gmork
2024-08-06 13:23:19 +0000 UTCMy Grandmother was probably a random civilian dosed without her consent. She was an immigrant to Montreal and working as a nurse around the height of MKUltra. The way my parents and uncle tells us there were a couple of times she came home in a terrible state and very afraid of the doctors. She became really very religious after those experiments, likely as a result of these vivid hallucinations she could not explain
WiseThat
2024-08-06 01:26:03 +0000 UTCGreat timing. I just happened on a Youtube episode of 'Bay Area Babylon' a couple weeks ago. Briefly talked about the SF connection with George White hiring sex workers to lure subjects in to be drugged. Very interesting and appalling.
Reverend Bill
2024-08-05 19:37:12 +0000 UTCi second this!!
K
2024-08-05 19:12:07 +0000 UTCthe message loops remind me a lot of Elizabeth Loftus’ research on the development of false memories, specifically convincing people they were attacked by a dog as a child and they reported fears of dogs for years
K
2024-08-05 19:10:22 +0000 UTCI think Oswald acted alone, but my favorite conspiracy theory is that he missed and a secret service agent shot him pulling his gun in response. I don't think it's true, but as Thomas says, incompetence explains more than clockwork perfection.
Gmork
2024-08-05 18:31:32 +0000 UTC~30 episodes in and I continue to be impressed by how good Matt is at this. For all Andrew's faults, I thought it was going to be tough to find a co-host who could deep dive into the law and explain it as well as he did, but Matt is at least as good if not better. And funnier -- one of the great deadpans of our time.
Gmork
2024-08-05 18:21:22 +0000 UTCI know Andrew did a few episodes on it, but would love to hear Matt's take on SovCit stuff.
Gmork
2024-08-05 18:11:43 +0000 UTCMore not move. Sorry!
KeepingThePlatesSpinning
2024-08-05 16:42:05 +0000 UTCThank you for covering move than trump!!! This was fantastic and terrifying!
KeepingThePlatesSpinning
2024-08-05 16:41:51 +0000 UTCStranger Things is actually partly based by MK Ultra
General Contact Unit Problem Child
2024-08-05 15:50:14 +0000 UTCI think Matt's giving them too much credit in saying they got useful data. My understanding is that before and after, they justified the immorality/illegallity by saying it was necessary to get vital data . . . but they got nothing useful so doubled down on doing more evil shit to find something useful to justify the evil shit they'd already done.
Gmork
2024-08-05 15:38:27 +0000 UTCGood time to plug Citation Needed's ep on a similar experiment. https://www.citationpod.com/the-edgewood-experiments/
Gmork
2024-08-05 15:24:45 +0000 UTCIf you ever get to the ep on law and hypnosis, I would be fascinated to hear it!
Heather
2024-08-05 14:35:54 +0000 UTCMy only complaint is that this episode wasn't 15 hours long.
Despairing Radical
2024-08-05 13:20:23 +0000 UTC
