Just How Bad Were the Oral Arguments Re: Presidential Immunity?
Added 2024-04-29 07:12:07 +0000 UTCEpisode 1028
Can a former President of the United States be prosecuted for trying to overturn a democratic election? The Supreme Court just spent two hours and forty minutes (!) hearing a case in which they were supposed to be reviewing this simple question and Donald Trump’s claims of total immunity. We review the last oral argument of this term and try to cut through the bad faith, irrelevance, and misdirection to understand what is actually happening here and where it all might be going.
DC Trump indictment (8/1/23)
CSPAN’S complete bookmarked SCOTUS oral arguments in Trump v. U.S. (4/25/24)
Comments
I remember a segment about some of the evil shit trump did, somethingorother farm remembers
David Bax (Spinobreaker)
2024-05-01 08:32:34 +0000 UTCHow... why... what??
David Bax (Spinobreaker)
2024-05-01 08:17:46 +0000 UTCAbsolutely loving new OA. Matt and Thomas you are a dream team for me.
Jess C
2024-05-01 06:22:11 +0000 UTCIn "what do I do with my other two wishes" news Lawyer Already Suing Boeing Discovers Missing Delta Air Lines 767 Emergency Slide Washing Up Near Home https://simpleflying.com/delta-air-lines-boeing-767-emergency-slide-lawyer-suing/
Stormy Decisis says visit sharebannedbooks.com
2024-04-30 22:53:31 +0000 UTCWrongful and illegal are two different things. Yes, it’s possible for a protest to violate that statute. If Obama forced his way into the Capitol and prevented the Capitol police and/or master at arms from removing him, that would be illegal and he probably should be charged in that case. If congress (or at least the speaker or parliamentarian or whoever) greeted him and yielded the floor to him, that’s not an obstruction. Anyway, protesters are arrested every single week in this country for trespassing, disturbing the peace, etc. The proper answer is that yes, it’s potentially a crime, it doesn’t enjoy immunity, but it’s balanced at a motion to dismiss by first amendment claims.
Junk Bonds and Junk Law
2024-04-30 21:56:04 +0000 UTCSurely an outlandish hypothetical that would never actually occur. ಠ_ಠ
Despairing Radical
2024-04-30 15:56:30 +0000 UTCThe issue I really have is "what does the term 'unlawful' mean when someone is immune from prosecution?" Because at that point we can say actions are immoral, or unethical, but if the law is incapable of judging the actor one way or another, can those actions actually be considered unlawful?
Despairing Radical
2024-04-30 15:55:55 +0000 UTCthis is a perfect articulation of something I hope I said in some form here. Alito seems to be presuming that something resembling our current rule of law would somehow continue to exist in some form even at the point at which we had a corrupt authoritarian who would feel empowered to issue an order to have special forces take out a rival--and that an "unlawful order" would be immediately recognized and/or that there is any possibility that such a president could be held accountable in any way even if everyone understood that to be what it was. It's absurdly naive and belies a total ignorance of how authoritarian governments actually work in practice.
Matt Cameron
2024-04-30 15:50:07 +0000 UTCIn general, I agree that Gorsuch is an asshole. However, I'm less convinced that he's asking that question to be an asshole. It is the kind of question that I would ask if I was trying to diagnose how narrow a decision would be appropriate. A protest like the one he described is something that would trigger the language of the statute but would generally be broadly acceptable. “Using force to obstruct, influence, or impede a congressional proceeding is plainly wrongful and therefore corrupt" as judge Pan put it in really, really unhelpful. If I was on the court I would be looking to use this case as a way to better define "corruptly". I think societally we generally praise presidents for pushing at the boundaries of their power and rely on the checks and balances to sort it out later. e.g. DACA was a calculated bet by Obama that he could establish a system that to capitalize on the vacuum created by congress's inaction. In bizarro world where 2012 congress was on the verge of enacting the legislative equivalent of the child separation program and Obama went to the Senate floor to protest by giving an impassioned speech, a de facto filibuster, he would have been celebrated as a hero by most of the left. Yet it would have clearly been wrongful. If I was a justice I would be looking to establish a rule that corruptly is more inline with the Lessig-proposed definition of acting at odds with the intended purpose. The presidency is intended to have a vigorous yet peaceful interaction with the legislature, within the boundaries of their term in office.
Drew Vogel
2024-04-30 15:41:22 +0000 UTCAs someone who has lived under the UCMJ for fifteen years: If the president is immune from prosecution for giving any kind of order, how do I, as a service member, determine which orders are unlawful? There are a lot more prosecutions for failing to disobey than there are for issuing illegal orders, and I would argue that the Nixon tautology of "if the president does it, then it's not illegal" means that a criminally immune president would be incapable of giving an unlawful order.
Despairing Radical
2024-04-30 14:12:14 +0000 UTCI have yet to hear anyone bring up the argument of what if the president’s political party controls the house and/or the senate and refuses to impeach or convict the president (like what happened here)? Are we supposed to accept the crimes just because the president’s party refuses to do its job?
Jeanie Jean Jean
2024-04-30 00:41:14 +0000 UTCoh dear. mr optimist matt sounds so unhopeful. :( thanks for the great analysis as usual.
lauren
2024-04-29 19:58:09 +0000 UTCSauer sounds like RFK jr… either than or he’s been a life long smoker and he’s using one of those digital voice boxes.
Everything Important
2024-04-29 17:55:11 +0000 UTCIt’s easier to have kindness towards our parents who have fallen down the Fox News madness when you consider these people have. I actually assume it’s money. I can’t imagine they believe this stuff
KeepingThePlatesSpinning
2024-04-29 17:51:36 +0000 UTCMark Joseph Stern at Slate, or at least that is where I think I heard it first, thinks it is pretty clear that at least Alito and possibly Thomas have become infected by the Fox "News" brain worms. He says that Alito used to ask reasonable questions and was not as radical as he appears to be now - Thomas, of course, didn't used to ask questions at all.
Jono Price
2024-04-29 17:40:59 +0000 UTCThe Supreme Court feels like 9 people who live in their own bubble. It’s hard to imagine these people also lived through Jan 6 like we did
KeepingThePlatesSpinning
2024-04-29 17:13:16 +0000 UTCThat Gorsuch question at 37:00 drove me nuts. Jesus Christ, if they could prosecute ME for leading such a protest, why the hell couldn't they prosecute the president for leading such a protest? I would have said 'It sounds like you don't like the law that would allow prosecution, not whether or not it applies to the president'
Michael Rops
2024-04-29 11:48:59 +0000 UTCThank you for the great episodes lately! Super useful in keeping an understanding of what's happening from abroad (I am an expat living in UK). For what little it's worth, I'd like to voice an opinion against a "today in trump history" kind of feature of the show. I am sure I'm not the only one looking forward to the day that trump can occupy approximately 0% of my thoughts. While I'm sure the impacts of his attacks on our democracy will be relevant for a long time and there will be plenty of stuff that can and should be discussed about that, the guy himself is a creepy fascist loser and I am not personally super excited to dedicate parts of my life specifically to remembering him. Nor should yous have to put yourselves through that! Besides, I have a feeling that whatever comes after the trump era for the republican party and base will be plenty worthy of coverage and ridicule itself.
Kevin Duff
2024-04-29 09:45:02 +0000 UTCI've thought for a while that the new holiday should be the anniversary of when he goes to prison. Telling each other stories about stupid shit he did would fit in naturally. :)
To sit in solemn silence in a dim dark dock in a pestilential prison with a life long lock awaiting the sensation of a short sha
2024-04-29 08:55:27 +0000 UTC
