Pugilist Birthday Preview #2: Class Revisions, a new Fight Club, & new weapons

I really like the look of the changes you have planned. I do have a question though on Fight Clubs. We have the Squared Circle that is all about grappling and ground work, and we have the Sweet Science, which is all about boxing and striking. How about a fight club that is a mix of both, balanced to be more of an MMA fighter or Pit Fighter than a specific wrestler or boxer. Also as much as I love Iron Chin, it does not really help much, Pugilists are still going to be diving into the thick of battle with AC's of about 15 or so. It just seems like it would be more thematic for them to have an alternate form to calculate AC like a Monk or a Barbarian. Maybe something like: Keep Your Hands Up - As long as you are wearing no armor, no shield and are wielding only pugilist weapons your AC is calculated as 10 + Strength Bonus + Proficiency bonus.

I respect the decision to not give them cantrips. Bard cantrips aren't phenomenal, and Vicious Mockery kind of does step on S&W a bit, but Arcane Recovery is definitely too much for a 1/3-caster. It works on Arcane Order because it's a capstone feature for a half-caster that's already focused primarily on spellcasting (feeling more like a 2/3 caster), but it's definitely way too strong for a 1/3-caster in its current form.

I suppose my biggest feedback for Braggadocio and Boorish Behavior isn't about how strong they are, but how good they feel to use. Namely, a d4 doesn't feel impressive or impactful, especially at later levels. I would much rather see a more powerful effect and either a cost (such as a moxie point) or limited uses imposed to make them feel more impactful. Guidance is indeed a great cantrip, and it does take an action to use, but I never see anyone use it in combat because it just doesn't feel worth it. I feel the same would happen with Braggadocio; I don't think anyone would blow the opportunity for an extra attack, Brace Up, One-Two, or the other moxie abilities for an extra d4, especially if it also costs moxie points. Its action economy opportunity cost already feels like too much to ever want to use it. That being said, option #4 would feel like an awesome use for a moxie point, and be really fun to roleplay in the middle of a combat. Also, option #3 was intended to remove the bonus action requirement, instead letting you gain the d4 without using an action. But yeah, there would definitely need to be some other cost or limited use associated with that. With Boorish Behavior, I agree that subtracting a d4 is really strong on a saving throw, but doesn't feel useful at all against attack rolls and ability checks by the time 17th level rolls around, when the average creature you're fighting has a +13 to hit and the average party member has an 18-20 AC. As to Arena Royale, my bet is that you haven't gotten the feedback before because every Fight Club looks like so much fun and I bet few people have opted for Arena Royale over the others in low-level campaigns, and didn't notice the discrepancy in later-level campaigns because later-level Arena Royale features are so awesome.

Also looks like I failed to navigate Patreon's less than stellar comment program and didn't respond to this comment so read my next comment below for my broader thoughts on your feedback. And thanks again!

Benjamin Huffman

Okay, now that I am looking at it again I am recalling that part of the internal balance for giving them greater spell restoration was that unlike other 3rd casters they do not get cantrips. I didn't want to give them cantrips because I was worried that would step too much on Salt & Vinegar (who essentially have a souped up Vicious Mockery as their 3rd level feature). Maybe that's still not balanced but just for context behind that decisions.

Benjamin Huffman

Hey Ross, Thanks as always for sharing your thoughts! I'm pretty happy with the Moxie change...I know a lot of people who are satisfied with it in its current form might be hesitant to see it change but I don't think it will be that different in play and a lot of people who used to have a problem will prefer this version. I am actually concerned Braggadocio is too powerful in it's current form! It is essentially an improved version of the *Guidance* cantrip (in that it is only a bonus action and, more importantly, doesn't require concentration) with the only limitation being that it targets yourself and expires at the end of the next round. That said, your suggestion #3 is already the case - you can do it at the start of your round. I actually think it might need to cost a Moxie point but I'm not totally sure. I think you're right about Bloodied but Boastful. I'll consider some alterations to that. Like Braggadocio, I also think Boorish Behavior is actually on the line of being too good and might need to cost a Moxie point. As it stands, whenever a creature gets exactly what they need on a roll you can be sure you can use your reaction to cause it to fail and if it's within 2 you can be pretty sure you can cause it to fail. Converting a successful roll to a failure reliably even a couple turns a day is a pretty huge deal. Interesting feedback about the Arena Royale. I'll definitely take a look at that. I can see what you mean and I'm surprised I haven't gotten feedback on that first feature before. Thanks for pointing it out!

Benjamin Huffman

I was a little concerned at first about your changing how the moxie regeneration works, but I like Bloody but Unbeatable a lot, and I REALLY like the change to Brace Up to compensate. I also like the wording changes you made to Street Smart. I feel as though Braggadocio is too weak in its current form. The fact that you can only use it in yourself, it lasts only until the end of your next turn, and it's only a d4 makes it a very unattractive option in a class that already has so much competition for the bonus action slot. There are very, VERY few circumstances in which I could see myself using this over a moxie option, or even just over a bonus action attack. That being said, there are a few ways I can see to make this more worthwhile without making it over powered, and I'll include them from what I see as least fun to most fun: 1) Increase the duration to 1 minute or 10 minutes; this would make it more flexible and dynamically usable, and would allow you to strategically use it early in a fight in preparation for that moment when you really need it. 2) Make the die bigger. A d6 that changes into a d8 or a d10 would be a much more attractive option, though doing this might mean you'd have to limit the number of uses to keep it in balance. 3) Make it usable at the beginning of a pugilist's turn with requiring the use of any action. This would once again probably necessitate limiting the uses, but it would make it more dynamic without being a serious penalty to action economy. 4) Make it affect another creature within 10, 15, or 30 feet of your choice that can hear you. A d4 is a small bonus, but if I'm giving it to myself AND a friend, I would HAPPILY use my action economy this way. In fact, it would feel AMAZING to do so, and makes for some cool buddy comedy roleplay moments in the middle of combat. Once again, you'd probably have to limit the uses since giving out two d4s is pretty strong, but I think this would feel great to use for the whole party. Bloodied but Bosatful, however, I worry is WAY too strong on a 1/3-caster. This would give the pugilist, a class that's already on the pretty high end in terms of damage and tanking ability, far superior spellcasting potential to all other 1/3-casters. At 8th level, being able to cast 4-8 1st-level spells, and 3-5 2nd-level spells per day is almost better than what the half-casting classes can do at that same 11th level (only not being better because half-casters have 3rd-level spells by this point). Combine that with all the different uses for moxie and it's simply too strong. Maybe it would be more balanced if it were spell slots with a total less than or equal to a quarter of your pugilist level? Boorish Behavior, like Braggadocio, feels a bit weak, as well. Like Braggadocio, I think I'd rather it be limited use but use a significantly larger die, maybe even your fisticuffs die (which at 17th level would be 1d12). On a different note, I was DMing a campaign in which a player was playing an Arena Royale Pugilist, and overall was loving it. As a person who has played Squared Circle myself, though, I noticed something felt a little off with his experience versus mine. When I played Squared Circle, I felt dynamic and useful at almost all times, and both me and my party loved the clutch plays I was able to make with my grapples and shoves (especially that opportunity attack grapple, which feels simply amazing to use). I noticed that, while he loved just hitting things over and over, he told me that he felt Arena Royale didn't feel like it was doing anything. When he got to 6th level and started being able to use Work the Crowd, he started greatly enjoying himself. However, I would highly encourage you to revisit Persona Libre to make it feel more fun at early levels. He enjoyed the roleplay aspect of it, but he and I both felt that the AC increase it granted felt rather useless since pugilists never really want to build Dex (especially when the base class requires Strength and Con, and Arena Royale also REALLY wants Charisma). I'm not sure what to recommend in the AC increase's place, but I would highly recommend its replacement given what I saw with this player.

Hi Alli - thanks for sharing your thoughts! Regenerating Moxie has been controversial ever since I first wrote it. Unlike most of the rest of the class it is still a feature that people frequently provide feedback around and some number of people even house rule it out altogether. Obviously not everyone is going to be happy with every feature in the class but, looking back, I also think it's a little bit messy to track. Not mechanically broken but stylistically I think could be improved. That said, Moxie regeneration still exists it's just moved from one feature to another and instead of being piecemeal each time you get hit it's a big regeneration all at once when Bloodied but Unbeatable triggers. I don't make this change lightly because I know people have been playing with Pugilists in their games for well over a year now. I have been considering this change for quite some time and my gut tells me it will improve the perception of the class as well as it's style.

Benjamin Huffman

I love the spell casting one. But why the new way to get moxie back? In our game the double edged sword seems to be working out well with having to take so much damage to get it back. Why not up the threshold or something. Maybe incooeperate con score/mod? I'm not a good homebrewer just this is my 2 cents. Tho everything else I do like.

Alli Miller