The Value of Game Critique is Real | Patreon Podcast
Added 2024-07-28 20:57:30 +0000 UTCHello Patrons!
Today, I discuss why robust game critique is more valuable (and needed) than ever, why evaluating the quality of art based on sales and mainstream popularity is short sighted, how indie games also struggle to not give into design by economics, why nothing seems to stand out anymore, how art gains value over time, and how I think the poetic and literary space of the past is now being filled by new artistic mediums like podcasting, YouTube, and stand up comedy (which I find very interesting).
Thank you so much everyone for supporting the channel, it's your support that allows me to continue to do the work that I feel I need to do <3
Sincerely,
Mark
Comments
Self Titled >>> For Emma
salmonconnections
2024-08-19 16:39:50 +0000 UTCHi Mark, this isn't related to the current podcast episode, but I was listening to your "All My Influences Are Dead" episode and there was a part where you were talking about how important ATP Live was as an influence. It sounded really interesting and I was wondering if there were any episodes in particular you could recommend as a 'must listen'?
Ursua
2024-08-04 09:57:23 +0000 UTCAs far as the main point of this episode goes, if your goal is to impact how we as fans view artistry, content and creativity, I believe you’re achieving your goal. What caused me to subscribe to your patreon were your YT videos about treating difficulty as an art, the creative bias we see towards non-difficult creation and artistic laundering. I’m not really a huge gamer any more (used to be as a kid) I’m more into music and sports now but the concepts you cover and angles you look at things can be applied to pretty much any field and that will separate your work from everyone else’s. I look forward to hearing how you continue to discuss these concepts in video games and other mediums and taking some of the concepts you discuss and applying them to the mediums I’m more passionate about (music, film, sports). Keep it up brudda.
SP
2024-08-01 18:38:52 +0000 UTCGot it set up. Appreciate it bro. Glad to be locked in with the patrons and keep going! You’re going to end up as one of the most important voices in popular media/art. Looking forward to what’s next, including music/film/etc critique.
SP
2024-08-01 17:54:12 +0000 UTCThanks very much Vrenna! This was a great episode for me to explore these concepts because as high concept as some of these episodes sound, they are like my little writing diary to keep me focused on the concepts that I think are important ha.
The Electric Underground
2024-08-01 17:53:12 +0000 UTCabsolutely Riff it is a massive fundamental problem, where if you view your game reviews as a youtuber as marketing (which a lot of youtubers seem to implicitly do), then that's going to really poison into your analysis in your reviews. Especially when you start considering or not if you are going to effect the sales of the game.
The Electric Underground
2024-08-01 17:50:14 +0000 UTCThat's a great point Riff! When it comes to being an artist, you do have to actually employ these critical beliefs yourself in the composition of your own work, that is such an important thing that gets overlooked a lot. And you can see how the mainstream established critique often has effects like this where devs will start to shift their own design philosophy to the critique the are familiar with, even in the composition process.
The Electric Underground
2024-08-01 17:48:18 +0000 UTCabsolutely, it also adds a level of intimacy to the commentary if the commentators are more real about their thoughts on the match and the players. There is a delicate line there for sure, but when you can tell as an audience member that there is a heavy restriction from any kind of real talk, it does feel awkward even on the listener's end. At least for me.
The Electric Underground
2024-08-01 17:46:04 +0000 UTCHi my dude! Yes there should be an rss link that you can use! Here I'll see if I can find the instructions on how to grab is (I believe everyone gets their own unique one) https://support.patreon.com/hc/en-us/articles/360041347732-How-to-use-your-audio-RSS
The Electric Underground
2024-08-01 17:42:50 +0000 UTCNew to the patreon… does anyone know if there is an RSS link so I can have the pod episodes show in my apple podcast playlist?
SP
2024-08-01 16:47:50 +0000 UTCThe last evo they were using the eye drops so much it was to the point I felt they weren't very effective at lubricating your eyes haha But to the point on commentators, one of the most memorable street fighter (the one with the jump spamming Ryu against Rufus) tournament matches were where they were just laughing at it the absurdness. As long as they aren't going batshit crazy on making fun of the player, I think it definitely adds more charm to the tournament. 8)
Ushi Mushi
2024-07-31 22:22:48 +0000 UTCI've been thinking about your comments about whether critique can be art and I thought I should make a point about that using examples from music which I know a bit more about. I think that critique is so deeply interwoven with art for example the compositions by schoenberg were deeply informed by the ideas he developed at the level of critique. But in the process of him making his art it was the art itself (and not just his criticism) which in turn revolutionised both the nature of critique itself within music criticism as well as the subsequent music being made, which is something that artists within visual art have also done too for sure but i know well less about. His creative art was in a way in a way the ultimate critique of much of the musical landscape at the term in a way mere narrative critique alone couldn't achieve. In the sense that the proof of the pudding is in the eating, it was the fact that he used his ideas to develop his art, and it was the music itself which served as proof of concept and ultimately validated his critical ideas. Not so different from how your citations of actual works of art such as great videogames validate your thoughts at the level of criticism. In this sense I think critique is deeply interwoven with great art, but I would push back on saying that critique in the sense of narrative critique itself is art because whilst i'd be comfortable to say its an art, nonetheless it is inherently derivative of (i don't mean this in a pejorative way) the art it describes but great art is a sort of positive even transcendental act which isn't apppendaged to another piece of work. I do think there is something to it that the greatness of the artists work can validate their ideas of critique, which is often why great artists make such great critics, an example I would give is Steve Reich who i think is a tremendous musician and a tremendous critic, and i'd go further and say I think his brilliance at the level of criticism and ideas enables him to be a tremendous musician (but often they don't make their living in criticism precisely because they're making it in art), but so many people who are just critics are hacks. I'm just shooting from the hip here, cheers for food for thought though, been a hell of a meal!
RiffMason
2024-07-31 13:57:33 +0000 UTCI definitely get what you're getting at with is game critique is art and there's definitely an art to it, as i'm sure you'd agree we're at point now where the more general basic problem is that game critique isn't even critique anymore and even all the youtubers are just aspiring to be platforms for advertisers. Hey great episode as always though, i've had a wicked day in work listening to this one so far so cheers!
RiffMason
2024-07-31 13:11:31 +0000 UTCOnce again a great listen!
Vrenna
2024-07-30 15:34:28 +0000 UTCThanks very much riff! Yeah I've been thinking a lot about doing a little extra sort of artsy content on a side podcast or something. It's something I have been meaning to do for a long time but I need to figure it out soon ha.
The Electric Underground
2024-07-30 04:32:22 +0000 UTCWhat a great comment sky! Yes I agree that critique is a great tool to use to distinguish art from marketing, because you'll notice that marketing want's to shut down higher level thought (don't think, act) and critique does the opposite. Critique can lead to analysis paralysis at times, but even that is an interesting phenomenon ha.
The Electric Underground
2024-07-30 04:31:25 +0000 UTCIt must have been lol! He was recording the truckcast and was talking about the best brake pads, routes, and meth XD Yeah honestly I have no idea what the dude was up to, but my dad always taught me to never be alone in the woods with a trucker, you never know what wild stuff is about to happen.
The Electric Underground
2024-07-30 04:29:29 +0000 UTCThat's wild, I had no idea he coined that term and I am a huge Orwell reader. It is funny how we get cycles like this with terms and concepts though!
The Electric Underground
2024-07-30 04:28:02 +0000 UTCYes exactly Vullgarity and over the past few decades game critics and the general mainstream view of arcade oriented design has been extremely dismissive and short sighted. It's been a general assumption for a long time that arcade games are like the cave paintings of video games and that outside of their historical relevance, they are outdated and better forgotten. I agree that if people talk about games, they are generally going to go on about ocarina of time or FF7, but in practice many of us return to playing arcade style games on a much more regular basis, like puyo puyo :-)
The Electric Underground
2024-07-30 04:26:25 +0000 UTCExactly Phil, it is completely absurd but with the collapse of the more genuine critical space, it's actually very difficult to push back against just mass consensus being the prevailing critical standard. I think a part of it is that critics these days want to be liked by either their peers or by their audience, which makes them really easy to persuade to dropping their standards. Because if your the only critic giving marvel films more rigorous review scores, now your completely out on a limb. I think it needs to happen, but I can understand how people are hesitant to do so when life's much easier just agreeing and calling it a day ha.
The Electric Underground
2024-07-30 04:22:26 +0000 UTCYeah it's a real balancing act of wanting to making something genuine, but then wanting to make something people will be interested in, and finding that bridge between the two is a tricky process. I do think if that you examine the overlap between your primary artistic impulses with the secondary opportunities that present themselves, you can find a nice compromise. Always easier said than done though.
The Electric Underground
2024-07-30 04:19:12 +0000 UTCAnother great insightful episode. Critique is necessary in art and everything. The art of criticism in general not only pokes at the creator but also the viewer. It challenges both sides to think. It instigates discourse. If a creation cannot stand up to critique I dare say it is not art. It's marketing.
Sky_Katchr_Gaming
2024-07-30 00:35:13 +0000 UTCPuyo is great. It's a staple game in our house. Puyo need to be at the next Evo!
Sky_Katchr_Gaming
2024-07-30 00:19:20 +0000 UTCI bet that semi truck just wanted a nice atmosphere to record a podcast
Bag of Schmidt
2024-07-29 17:17:59 +0000 UTCThe Conservative government in my UK had a whole infrastructure policy called “leveling-up”. I thought that was funny that governments were taking terms from gaming. BUT then I read in one of Orwell’s essays written in the 40s. He referred to “leveling-up”. I realised that it was actually gaming that took the term. “It like poetry…it kind of rhymes” - George Lucas
Kuma_Wamu
2024-07-29 12:37:16 +0000 UTCIt is perspective changing. I more or less quit video games a decade ago. Frustrated with the medium but unsure as to why. Until running across the channel I never thought of "Arcade" as a substantial signifier in gaming. It really felt like I had to accept the insulting tutorials, progression systems, and constant gameplay interuptions. It breaks the nostalgia cycle and builds confidence around novel preferences. I don't have to explain why I haven't played FF7 or OoT. I can say Time Attack in F-Zero X or getting a nasty chain in Puyo Puyo are more fun to me.
Vullgarity
2024-07-29 11:43:33 +0000 UTC15:20 I agree it’s ridiculous how high rated the Marvel films are. I remember looking at the top 10 of all time on IMDB once; 5 out 10 films were Marvel. This generic garbage was amongst Godfather and 2001; absolutely absurd.
Kuma_Wamu
2024-07-29 10:38:12 +0000 UTCThe problem with gamedev is that it is such a competitive field that if you want to make money you must make what people want to spend money on, or be insanely lucky. YouTube is similar but I suspect slightly more artist focused (although you still have to appease the algorithm somewhat.)
Ben Bishop
2024-07-29 03:19:15 +0000 UTCGee whizz this sounds like a hell on an episode from the description. Whilst videogames are your numero uno content wise I'd love to see you have some more videos on stuff outside of videogames blow up too just since your stuff on art/films and so on is top tier too. Looking forward to listening to this one, peace!
RiffMason
2024-07-28 21:17:16 +0000 UTC
