Critique is Not Hate
Added 2023-10-27 14:51:37 +0000 UTCToday's patreon ep discusses my thoughts on the role/importance of critique, the power of negative space in writing/game design, why I think British Youtubers have an advantage (lul), what makes games art, and how video games lack a history of robust and thoughtful critique.
Comments
Oh that's funny you mention action button because I've had other people bringing Tim Rogers up to me recently and I've legit never heard of him before. It does sound like he and I have some overlapping ideas though. Maybe at some point I can get in contact with him and interview him, that would be cool :-)
The Electric Underground
2023-11-20 06:14:09 +0000 UTCSpeaking of the history of game critique, did you ever read or hear about Action Button back in the 360/PS3 era? That site and the main writer Tim Rogers really opened my eyes up to the idea of divorcing yourself from the hype cycle and looking more at the macro of where gaming has been and where it should be going. They had a critical voice and core values in their critique that was consistent and divergent from the mainstream. Made me think more about game mechanics and the arcadey or gamey feel to them. I still like going back to read it and enjoy the current YouTube channel too despite it being uploaded to just once a year.
Viewtifu1
2023-11-18 23:57:27 +0000 UTCPatreon's comment section is weird, I feel like this discussion was sparked by my comment but I didn't get a notification or anything, and the comment thread is all out of order. A lot of great points and thoughts in this discussion here, I especially like "soak time", I'm gonna be using that.
Steve-Fiction
2023-11-09 22:46:47 +0000 UTC2 dogs is enough for me; can't imagine 4 young kids haha It's a fun topic to discuss though! It'd be interesting to see Mark talk about the importance (or lack of) story in video games with someone who is a die hard (J)RPG fan. I mostly align with Mark's stance on it, but I think it could have some insightful dialogue with a clash of perspectives.
Ushi Mushi
2023-11-07 08:44:19 +0000 UTCGood point on the characters being the appeal of the "story-focused" games for some. From an outsider perspective (I've never played them), I think that's the big appeal of Falcom's Trails series. Like most things though, that can go downhill quick. Xenoblade 2 blade quests come to mind. Throw in all these mediocre "character-focused" side stories for characters you don't care at all about and it feels like content for the sake of content. And on the soak time thought, I fully agree that people can force that upon themselves. But for those who struggle with the discipline to do it (e.g. me), it's actually welcome when the game forces it. I had never heard of Little Nightmares, and I never played through ICO. I'm not a huge fan of desolate worlds and ICO gave me that vibe. Either way, I appreciate the dialog. Sorry for my slow responses. Four young kids have a black hole effect when it comes to time.
SteadyAl
2023-11-07 01:56:19 +0000 UTCI raise your essay with another essay. Some interesting stuff here - one of the reasons I love reading the comments on these podcasts :) One issue with people appreciating 'the art of doing' is the same as appreciating art in general - most just don't. I'm not going to pretend I analyze every film I watch, but, in general, a lot of people just consume and don't care in any medium. This is one of the reasons, even though it didn't relate to my degree at all, my most memorable and valuable classes I took were Art History and Film. But it is a good comparison using Tennis, which is easy to play but really hard to master, to a game with great raw mechanics (a shmup). Look at figure skating - it's hard not to consider this artful in execution. Another element I think that's missed in these longer RPGs, is that you're spending 50-100 hours with these visible characters. And you can grow attached to them, which is also where a lot of story 'meaning' comes to folk. This is obviously not value to the story itself, but is a huge part of what attaches people to the story. It's also another medium I think that could maybe flourish in more nuanced character development and psychology due to its length. As for Vagrant Story (never played, but wanted to since it's regarded as a challenging RPG) - that style of story telling is my personal preference if it's going to exist (e.g. Gun Grave GORE) I don't necessarily agree with verbiage of forcing a break to 'soak in' the story, because 1. I can do that myself and 2. The story would have to have some pretty spicy elements to require it, which most do not and 3. I think a great story would require the full picture to properly appreciate the story element; not just that nugget. But I do think it's a valuable tool to have a game contain a story without overstaying its welcome, and can even be fun. Lastly, after thinking a little, I think Little Nightmares is a game that does a great job of telling a story with no dialogue but all based on the gameplay and environment. And I think a game could take that even a step further if it really went hard with the gameplay mechanics and more nuanced imagery, sounds, camera, etc. Unfortunately I'm a semi-horror buff, so I don't know any examples outside of that genre :) ICO is pretty cool too in that regard.
Ushi Mushi
2023-11-05 03:20:40 +0000 UTCAgree with the essence of Mushi’s point of relying on the interactive elements. If there's not enough focus on the interactive elements and the “doing” (see my long post), the pacing is off. The gameplay has to be the focus and “stretch out” or give the scenes enough time to sink in. Stories with mystery and intrigue are best suited, because there’s an element of “doing” both via engaging in the game’s mechanics as well as engaging in figuring out the “what’s going on.” Vagrant Story I think is a good example. Most people trash the game as tedious, but the tedious elements give time for the story intrigue to “soak.” I think “soak time” is very important...i.e. giving people time to be “contemplative” on the story nuggets that have been provided. It makes for an organic pacing. The cut scenes are short and use the “negative space” you were talking about. There’s actually things to think about / contemplate between scenes. And the gameplay has enough difficulty that it gives enough reward to both succeed at the challenge as well as make you anticipate the next story element.
SteadyAl
2023-11-04 19:33:00 +0000 UTCI love how your rants get me thinking. At risk of being too philosophical: I think you’re really onto something important when you start talking about games as art in the context of criticism. A thing that makes video game commentary (focusing on its artistic elements) particularly difficult is that video games in some ways are a medium with an "identity crisis." That's because of the tension between the interactive elements and the "more traditional" story-telling elements (e.g. dialog and cut-scenes). If art is essentially a way to communicate and explore the truth of what it means to be human, the reality is that humans are complex and there are multiple dimensions to us. And because humans have these multiple dimensions, a medium like video games that also carries multiple dimensions can appeal to either dimension. Different people are going to focus on different dimensions (i.e. interactive “doing” elements and more passive “story-telling” elements). For the interactive (or “doing”) part of artistic exploration, a well-designed game’s artistic appeal comes from the framework that challenges the player and allows them to succeed. That’s when things like difficulty become important. An analogy is sports. However, think about that analogy. People don’t talk about the game itself as the art, rather the practitioner’s proficiency in the art. When’s the last time you heard someone talk about tennis as a work of art? As opposed to a beautiful Roger Federer forehand which is recognized as “a work of art” or “a thing of beauty.” The beauty that’s more readily recognized as art is the way in which the practitioner has raised their proficiency to a level that embody human potential and capability. So this is a really difficult dimension to talk about games as art, because while the game (i.e. the framework) itself is artistic expression, it’s less likely to be appreciated if a person has never experienced that aspect of “the art of doing.” But also why it might be more understandable to a player of a genre like shmups, because they (maybe unknowingly) explore that artistic dimension (i.e. challenge their capacity as humans to accomplish highly coordinated and precise requirements to succeed at a challenge). Instead of using difficulty and game mechanics as artistic expression, I think most games that try to be artistic try to lean into the “story telling” dimension. I say “try to be artistic” because I think a lot of games these days just try to be addictive. They have real gradual difficulty curves and string players along with one gimmick after another that provides a dopamine spike to keep them coming back. I.e. there’s no “attempt” to be artistic. But to be successful at the story telling approach (as artistic expression) is tough because there’s the tension with the interactive elements. There are few games like Steins;Gate that go “all in” on the art form that really have nothing to “do.” Most try to “serve both masters” and lose their identity as a result. That’s why I think you hit onto something really important when you talked about how you play Metal Gear Solid 3. If you want to explore the “doing” part of the games, dive into its interactive systems and mechanics. If you want to explore the story telling themes, watch the cutscenes. The reason I prefer video games as a “go-to” story telling medium is that I’m a “doer.” I want to engage in a challenge and succeed. If I get a decent story along for the ride, great. But what I’m REALLY looking for is the game mechanics themselves, and the story is the “icing on the cake.” And the reason I really like that you focus on and talk about difficulty is because you’re pointing towards the “doing” dimension of the artistic exploration of video games. When a game is too easy, there’s no real exploration of that human element. Anyway, super long and probably not too coherent, so thanks if you read the whole thing. P.S. Given your stance on JRPGs, I was surprised to hear some parasite EVE tunes in the background. P.P.S. If you like really rigid games (DDP), why don’t you like Sekiro? It’s forces you into rhythm game elements. Maybe it’s the cognitive dissonance of Souls + rhythm?
SteadyAl
2023-11-04 19:31:33 +0000 UTCThe worst offenders are the immersive 50-100 hour long games that also add in this pseudo Shakespearean language haha
Ushi Mushi
2023-11-03 22:44:01 +0000 UTCIs the key word here 'articulate'... Games being exercises in joining dots, moving from one point to another, gaining levels, winning a space, beating the time, finding treasure. The artfulness being in drawing out responses in a coherent and correct manner, along the lines of distinction set out like rules for sports. Playing games people are sporting for those distinctions. In turn being separated into articulations of form and function. Gamer art. Expressions of artistry encapsulated and experienced representing a map one may follow on a journey. When laid out in such terms it seems unavoidable games will lend themselves to stories like a hat to a head. Question is therefore what style is the hat and is there substance in that head ;()
Taze Roiu
2023-11-03 21:11:26 +0000 UTCOh that is an interesting example! Also another one that comes to mind would be detective stories, where you are actually able to integrate the story lines themselves into the gameplay (I assume Phoenix Wright works like this to some degree). I think for more pulp genres, I could see video games adding a cool twist. I think that is pretty different though than the whole "immersive" design thing that devs are currently pushing.
The Electric Underground
2023-11-03 20:04:57 +0000 UTCI'll throw my 2 cents. I don't think video games are a good medium for more literary type stories or plays - like you're not going to get Paradise Lost or Othello; as you said, the pacing just isn't there. But I think it can be a medium good for stories done through interaction and environmental cues if done right. Horror genre I think can benefit in this medium pretty well as an example. A 'scientific reason' I think would be, to a lot of folk, it's what gives the game value/meaning. It feels like something they can take from the experience and think on beyond the game and reflect - Gun Grave as a recent example has themes you can ponder and reflect upon - people like finding that in games as well. That being said, I think most attempts at 'epic' stories in video games is often shallow, slow, and derivative; I have a very difficult time not hitting that skip button.
Ushi Mushi
2023-11-03 06:55:35 +0000 UTCYea the opposite end of the spoilable story is the one that lets you know exactly how it's gonna go down and stands by it. I love that. Seems very tough to do, but so rewarding. Mervyn Peake's first 2 Gormenghast novels come to mind, and Herbert's God Emperor of Dune. Can't think of many movies that do it, will have to check out Black Swan.
Jake G
2023-11-02 23:42:49 +0000 UTCI would love to hear your thoughts on why video game stories work! Because I do understand that people connect with them, sometimes in a unique way, but being a lit/film guy myself, it's really hard for me to connect with them on the same level, mostly because of pacing.
The Electric Underground
2023-11-02 16:20:33 +0000 UTCYes exactly Guru! Also here is another example of what you are talking about that could be interesting to consider. I think another reason why old school internet forums were more open minded and engaging, is because of the cultural selection of who was on the internet at that time. Now, because the internet is everywhere, everyone is on the internet by default, even closed minded people. But in the early days of the internet, the people logging on there, by natural selection, were more open minded and seeking to communicate with other people. Sort of an interesting way to view it I think :-)
The Electric Underground
2023-11-02 16:19:06 +0000 UTCWhat an awesome comment Mushi!! Yes the level of just personally coming at me in my critical reviews is pretty crazy ha. Pretty much no one cares about One Piece anymore lol, that lasted what 3 weeks in terms of internet interest, but the Resi4remake vid still gets salty comments on it daily. i don't check the comments section of that video anymore, but youtube shows me some of them in the dashboard of studio. Something I've been telling myself, that I hope is helpful, is that a lot of these more personal and angry responses are more like reflexes of defense, and even if they are mad at you at first, the critiques do start to set in after a while ha. Like a slowly burning grain of sand.
The Electric Underground
2023-11-02 15:37:27 +0000 UTCExactly Jake! Because otherwise you literally can only watch the movie one time? I watched Black Swan again last night, I love that movie, and each time i see that film I know exactly what is going to happen, the film even tells you at the start, but there are so many layers and depth to that film that I love and I get something new out of it each time.
The Electric Underground
2023-11-02 15:33:31 +0000 UTCVery interesting topic, you've given me a lot to think about here. I personally really love your reviews because I'll almost always be hearing something different from the common critiques and praises that other reviewers seem to copy from each other. And most of the time, I find myself agreeing with you, too 👍 I am going to come up with a scientific explanation about why video game stories matter though. Something about how the brain is wired, probably.
Steve-Fiction
2023-10-28 19:31:59 +0000 UTCI think a lot of the problem is that in a "matured" age of the internet, people have lost all ability to either convey, or detect, nuance. It was hard to convey in early forums, and in an age of 140 character tweets and rapid fire Discord posts, it seems so many people have the attention span of a gnat. By default, no one wants to take the time to understand another perspective, they just assume the low effort position of, "You disagree with me, therefore you're wrong and probably hate me" instead. I also like the discussion about the subjectivity vs objectivity of art. I'm not a fan of postmodern art in general (in the drawing/sculpture/painting sense), and while I think much of it is garbage, I don't hate the artists who make it. It just doesn't speak to me. Similarly, it's okay to enjoy the mediocre and not enjoy the amazing, and vice versa. Bonus points for the use of the Parasite Eve soundtrack in the background, I dig it.
Josh Dieckmann
2023-10-28 14:22:08 +0000 UTCI resonate a lot with this. Maybe it's because I studied Math where logic and reasoning were just beaten into me. So when I 'analyze' something I tend to come across overly critical and people often call me a contrarian or "hate conformity" as a result. And it also makes it hard for me to buy into hype or feel what the crowd feels. Makes me feel like I'm back to being an edgy teen, but I just want to try to get to an objective conclusion by my own metrics. And look, man, I love trash tv too; there's a place for it, no doubt. But I'm not going to pretend The Rock of Love is a masterpiece - it's degenerate, entertaining, trash. Entertaining =/= good from a critical perspective. I'll just take a side note to a side note here - I'm not religious myself, but I always found it funny how certain and condescending atheists themselves can get. I'm like dude, you're hating on them for the exact same thing you're saying, the hell lol. I just avoid those type of conversations all together now. But to comment on the meat - I feel where you're coming from. In the One Piece video, I decided to just read some of the comments just to see how people took it. And it's absolutely insane how few people actually understand what you're doing/saying. Even if there's something I might not agree with you on, you justify your points; there's an opening for discussion if someone disagrees. But it's easier to just throw the word 'nitpick' or you're drinking that hateraide. Gaming as an art is an interesting concept I've grappled with a bit too. I think when that's thrown around, people immediately glue themselves to the graphics, sound, and story - which can be important, but I think not by the mainstream perception. Story is best explored through interacting with the environments and gameplay; not exposition and lore dumps. Super Metroid is a good example imo. Saying mechanics wholesale is an artform is an interesting thought, and I'll definitely mull over that. But I do believe gameplay and mechanics is precisely where you need to prioritize for this medium if you want to play on its strengths. These things need to be cohesive with the 'story' you're selling, and the sounds need to fit your graphical style and atmosphere, and it all needs to complement that story's aesthetic. And I use 'story' loosely. Super Metroid, again, is very simple, but it still tells a story nice and too the point and plays on its strengths to do so. Not claiming Super Metroid is a gold standard or anything, just a familiar example I can think of. And frankly, a story isn't even necessary imo, but an aesthetic is, and story can be an element of that in this medium. Sorry this was long and wordy. Great podcast, though!
Ushi Mushi
2023-10-28 01:15:50 +0000 UTCyep if a movie isn't enjoyable after being "spoiled" it just isn't very good to begin with, e.g. the sixth sense
Jake G
2023-10-27 23:14:58 +0000 UTCYes that's a great quote. Especially these days where we are taught that media is one and done disposable, with spoiler culture and everything. Where once the plot is "spoiled" then the whole novelty and value of the story is lost. Whereas great art like Eyes Wide Shut cannot be spoiled really. Even if you say, there's a big orgy scene at a mansion, that is not at all going to diminish the impact of the story.
The Electric Underground
2023-10-27 21:21:15 +0000 UTCYes exactly Jake, and the Brits are absolutely dominating Hollywood right now as well. A lot of prominent actors are British as well. I'm both impressed and jealous at the same time ha. And yeah if you want something to sound smart or classy, getting that uppercrust English accent is gonna be the winner." Lol I thought that little mario joke was pretty funny.
The Electric Underground
2023-10-27 21:19:17 +0000 UTCYour point about rewatching movies and games before judging their artistic merit reminds me of a Gene Wolfe quote - "My definition of good literature is that which can be read and enjoyed by an educated reader, and reread with increased pleasure."
Jake G
2023-10-27 20:14:52 +0000 UTCOne side of the british advantage in broadcasting is the texture of the actual sound you're hearing like you describe, the other side is that we've been trained to see the british as trustworthy and "high class", a reputation that's been carefully crafted for hundreds of years and that anglophile america accepts wholeheartedly. They don't recruit from Arkansas for fancy car commercials or nature documentaries. "Some of my best friends are Mario" haha
Jake G
2023-10-27 20:12:32 +0000 UTCAmen on that one!
RiffMason
2023-10-27 16:01:02 +0000 UTCThat is such a great point Riff! Yes, if people let their guards down and understand that the goal of your critique is not to try to impose so kind of agenda or smack something around for the sake of it, then I think people become much more open and receptive to discussion and ideas -- which is the whole point of critique and art analysis ha.
The Electric Underground
2023-10-27 15:54:11 +0000 UTCYoyo, haven't finished this one yet but just checking in! My hokey cornball take on this is that how people receive what we say when we critique isn't just based on what we say or what our actual beliefs are but whether we've built trust, respect and understanding with the people we're communicating with beforehand or not. This is just the impression I get but the comments I see people make on your videos see to be split between a core membership who you've built that trust, respect and understanding with through years of producing thoughtful work so they extend you that courtesy of really considering if you're right because they respect that you very well might be, and a newer audience that won't really consider what you're saying because really they don't feel a reason to extend you that respect and understanding,All i mean is, without trust and respect, it's not surprising so many internet interactions end up being such non-starters.
RiffMason
2023-10-27 15:44:34 +0000 UTC
