7th Day Electric (Patreon Podcast) Ep 19, How Far Can the Genre Go?
Added 2021-06-01 10:09:50 +0000 UTC
Comments
Listened to this now, and I really agree with the idea that shmups should emphasize their own strengths instead of trying to "ride the coattails" of other genres (fighting games, speedrunning, etc.). For example, I've been playing Hellsinker the past couple months, and viewed through the "action game lens", I think it's just outright better than most recent action games. Shmups have developed a tradition of extremely strong fundamentals over years of focused refinement, which is a huge boon that very few other genres share. Hellsinker is very non-traditional, as you know, but it uses that tradition of strong fundamentals as a foundation. The interaction between the game's many unique features (Suppression Radius, highly varied weapons, meter management, wacky patterns, ...) and the fundamentals is what elevates the game from a collection of dumb gimmicks to something with genuine depth. As another example, speedrunning is honestly kind of a shitshow compared to shmups. The quality of a game when played as a speedgame is dependent on a very unpredictable mix of factors. Some, like core mechanics and level design, are obviously intended by the developers, and better games are generally stronger in these areas. Others, like length of dialogue/cutscenes and type/amount of glitches, are essentially uncorrelated. Shmups on the other hand, are mostly designed from the ground up to be fun when played optimally. Awkward moments of pacing, easily solved optimal strategies, and bizarre changes in mechanics are rightfully seen as flaws to be avoided. Many specific games like Celeste made names for themselves as speedgames by design: shmups as an entire genre are scoregames by design. Anyway, those are my random thoughts. Hopefully you found some of this interesting!
HotPocketHPE
2021-07-09 20:12:10 +0000 UTCHoly crap that sounds realllly cool! Be sure to send it to me when you get it finished!
The Electric Underground
2021-07-07 16:25:54 +0000 UTCjus coming back to this now ,but wanted to throw my video game summer goal into th mix which is to complete an essay or two toward my ongoing ideation of `mystical game design` (kind of like how Tolkien or C.S. Lewis wrote `mystical fiction`), a concept I've been researching/contemplating for several months now, but have been continually putting off solidifying into any real (shareable) form. like you said about your speedrun v. scoring video, I want to make sure I can formulate all my ideas properly, but I feel like I`m getting close! P.S.: rly rly looking forward to your history of CAVE video!!
meinong
2021-07-05 19:36:57 +0000 UTCI don't have anything against him personally or anything like that. We've just had conversations back and forth over the past year or so and I don't know, there's always been sort of a strange vibe to them. I'm sure he's a cool dude and everything but whenever I've had interactions with larger youtubers (not just Arc) there's always this sense of seniority that comes off. It's a youtuber thing honestly, and you can start to pickup on a shift in people's attitudes as your channel grows. I think that's just the way it is. Just makes it tough in the position of shmups because there's really not a way to a mass wide appeal like there is for stuff like RPG (at least yet). I actually wrote an article all about this back in the day. Give it a read! I might turn it into a video because I do reference it all the time. https://electricunderground.io/article-the-prison-of-unpopularity/
The Electric Underground
2021-06-04 20:34:10 +0000 UTCI don't the guys at Resonant Arc are being condescending. They just talk in a super blunt way. They have mentioned on their podcasts how people always think they are dicks when they first meet them.
John Adams
2021-06-04 18:20:34 +0000 UTCYeah it's a challenge to find time to squeeze it in :-)
The Electric Underground
2021-06-03 15:05:12 +0000 UTCOh that's really cool! I have heard about the series before but haven't played it myself :-)
The Electric Underground
2021-06-03 15:04:36 +0000 UTCMy video game summer goal is to complete more games including Trails in the Sky FC.
Kikoman589
2021-06-03 11:56:35 +0000 UTCI think that's exactly why shmups _are_ so appealing in this day & age though. Mobile & gatcha games, MMOs and a lot of AAA games all use Skinner box techniques, flashing lights and LEVEL UP!s and "Great job" as the experience racks up after every little action. Respawn points that are literally on top of where you died so that players don't quit at the thought of having to do something over again. These elements are deliberately psychologically engineered to keep players hypnotized & engaged. The problem is that these things all work by triggering dopamine responses, and they can leave you severely overdrawn, leading to feeling listless, lacking motivation or self regulation, and emotional sensitivity and depression. Shmups are the opposite. They will crush you and defy you to hit start again. They end up being a training of focus & will, and a lot of them represent long term projects that will take a player months or years to achieve their top goals in. I think a lot of people do want this sort of thing in their lives, as an antidote to the soul-sucking blinking light machines. Something which provides meaningful mastery. There are all sorts of popular pursuits like golf or playing guitar which place similar demands on people, there’s definitely a human appetite for it. I think most people just don’t understand the broader culture and approaches around shmups. I didn’t until I deep-dove into it.
Philip Mason
2021-06-02 23:47:42 +0000 UTCI am hoping to have a better playable game project at alpha by the end of 2021. I am not intent on doing serious 1-CCs on any game since I have a full time job.
JBRPG
2021-06-02 21:37:08 +0000 UTCI was going to add on to my comment but you got to me first lol. I think I was thinking a little all or nothing in my reply, for example if you would have told me 12 years ago that a King's Field sequel named Demon's Souls would turn into one of the biggest trends in gaming I would have laughed at you. The desire to be challenged is there now that I think about it, so maybe it is possible for shmups to break through. For our part, over at SJ's discord we have started a grassroots campaign I guess you could say, we are hammering that everyone playing shmups needs to be always recording and streaming as much as possible. No matter the skill level, from expert to novice, even just practice sessions to just get more media out there. It's been a lot of fun, it really feels like the closest we will get to the arcade atmosphere having a few people watching someone learn a game while commenting and giving tips. Maybe there's something there, after all arcades are the true home of shmups.
Chinopolis
2021-06-02 17:05:18 +0000 UTCYes I agree with this completely!!! I do think that if I can build up a really healthy video base and community of players for new players to join in and take part in, I think that is the best way (at least in what I am able to do) to build up the genre is a steady and reliable manner. I think that if I can do this and then an a big opportunity comes along (like the platinum shmup) this can be another breaking point, but breaking points without a strong foundation of content don't stick.
The Electric Underground
2021-06-02 16:47:50 +0000 UTCOh I am looking forward to checking out when it's ready!!
The Electric Underground
2021-06-02 16:43:46 +0000 UTCYes for sure, the format of my videos is an ever evolving project ha. I have decided to hone in more on a specific field of topics (as fun as complaining about star wars and bad melee documentaries is) as of late and I do think broadening out a little bit into more arcade stuff will be great!
The Electric Underground
2021-06-02 16:43:16 +0000 UTCYes I do agree completely that the overall appeal power of the genre is limited to where shmups won't ever match the widestream appeal of stuff like fornight and all that jazz ha. But I do think that the genre can push ahead a little bit further and be able to be a more respected as a niche, maybe around the 100k territory? My life in gaming, for example, has 200k and they are basically just niche retro console hardware
The Electric Underground
2021-06-02 16:34:06 +0000 UTCThat's a really cool goal! Can't go wrong with a PGM!!!
The Electric Underground
2021-06-02 16:25:59 +0000 UTCMy goal is to get a igs pgm and at least one game. I finally have some crts and that would be a cheap way to get into the world of pcbs. Edit: I think having more irl events could help. Maybe have a pizza and parodius night in a popular arcade. It's small scale but once people see the arcade machines in action and they're having fun, they'll be sold on shmups.
Robert St.Angelo
2021-06-02 08:15:07 +0000 UTCMy summer gaming goal is not to buy any more games. I'm drowning over here. I believe you’re right about building up the scene at the grass roots level. It’s pointless to try & lure people through other scenes’ events if there’s nothing concrete to lure them to. I think the biggest challenge the genre faces is differentiation. Even though I grew up playing them and respected the genre, after some years away I’d see a shmup getting praised but it wouldn’t really stick. I knew it’d have some reason around the scoring system or whatever why the genre diehards would care. But I didn’t understand what I was even supposed to be looking for. The games all looked mechanically simple and stamped from the same few templates. I’m sure that’s how Deathtiny appeared to most people who saw it. Which is why I’d differ from the notion that new games aren’t central. It can’t just be the old favourites from a genre that peaked in the mid 90s. It needs imaginative or visually interesting titles to be hitting that can wedge their way into gaming media hype cycles. Games that people look at and think ”oh, I want to try that.” Otherwise, we’re just pinball. It doesn’t need to be on the level of Platinum doing Gradius VI. Just something like Crimzon Clover or Neko Navy getting in front of the right sets of eyeballs. I think Cuphead’s a good example that it’s still possible. Fortunately, the Switch seems to have brought the genre back from the brink, and it’s got a bit of fringe momentum. Unexpected re-releases (Guardian Force? Wow) and new games from respectable publishers. Compared to the wasteland the genre was through the PS3 & first half of the PS4 years, this is really great.
Philip Mason
2021-06-02 06:40:45 +0000 UTCI'm planning on getting a stick soon too as a birthday treat for myself. Also I want to finish my game, but that'll be in the southern hemisphere summer :P
Ben Bishop
2021-06-01 23:39:15 +0000 UTCMy shmup goals for summer (winter over here) are to finish the shmup I’ve been developing since December and play more Garegga. I think shmupjunkie has a more casual approach to the genre and that gives him a broader audience. His videos are more youtubey too, yours come across like a podcast and there are a few quite random in your channel, like the star wars review. That wouldn’t help with SEO in YouTube. Maybe the name also helped him, shmup is on his channel name, the electric underground could mean anything. I think the videos you made as guides and tutorials were really popular in your channel, maybe thinking about making more of those is not a bad idea. Also tackling more into retro and arcade games can help you to get a broader audience than can start watching other of your videos and eventually play shmups :D That’s what I think, I’m not a YouTube expert by any means so don’t take anything I said too seriously.
Ram Q
2021-06-01 23:11:51 +0000 UTCMy project for the summer is to finish Touhou Lunatic, of which I have only 3 left, and then start on DDP DFK BL which is my white whale. As far as the popularity of the genre, I'm unfortunately not as optimistic as you. I feel like there's a hard cap on how much mainstream appeal you are going to get simply by the nature of the games themselves. The huge popularity of gatcha games, Battle royales, roguelites, etc all share one thing: a random element of surprise that feels rewarding. Shumps are all about you and your skill, no excuses. Maybe I'm being close-minded but I'm just don't see the average gamer these days really diving in unless they have a personal interest already.
Chinopolis
2021-06-01 23:02:08 +0000 UTCThat s an awesome one! :-)
The Electric Underground
2021-06-01 15:38:20 +0000 UTCMy shmup summer goal is learning to use an arcade stick as effectively as a pad
morsalty
2021-06-01 15:10:48 +0000 UTC
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