7th Day Electric Ep 14: Why Do Shmuppers Fear Success? Mark Legit Rants for an HOUR
Added 2021-01-26 11:25:46 +0000 UTCHey everyone,
Today is a very unusual episode in which I do go into a full blown rant about a topic that has begun to get under my skin. That being said, I also sort of lean into the ranting for humor and entertainment value, so I hope that comes across ha. For the new patrons (Thanks for joining by the way) I don't usually go into full blown rants for the exclusive episodes, but I wanted to try it out and see how the fans respond ha. I'd usually cut this episode and re-record more calmly ;-)
Comments
Hey my dude i read your post! so I think about this very same thing alot, especially since if youtube ends up drying up I plan to move into the indie shmup deving space with fierce aggression ha. But yeah this is the huge problem with indie shmup development where the barrier to entry for creating a top tier game is extremely high, but the financial pay off is going to be low - especially compared to other genres. Personally, I'm not entirely sure how to combat that effectively except that one silver lining is that shmups are a genre that requires a high level of programming skill to compose, but they don't necessarily require massive financial investment on a pure technical scale. So my thinking would be maybe looking at the playing field a little bit differently compared to the other genres out there. Rather than focusing these massive ambitious projects like ZeroRanger that take a decade to complete, maybe it's better to take a more iterative approach where you create a series of games that you can build off eachother and release every few years or so. like Megaman or Pokemon used to do back in the day.
The Electric Underground
2021-02-05 22:57:17 +0000 UTCI was expecting an hour long AVGN level F-bomb montage from that description lol Anyone subscribed is partly subscribed BECAUSE you care enough about the genre to need to vent now and then. I think I've said it before but you have good instincts for spotting problems & solutions even down the road, whereas a lot of people you argue with are probably just focused on the moment or actively (subconsciously or otherwise) want the genre to keep it's niche status...so trust your gut lol Ended up typing up my own reply rant after listening to this ep: One problem with negativity is that positivity alone can make a big difference. Imagine being the MiSTer guy randomly picking a shmup to do your thing with and you wake up to a thread or inbox full of positive support and you're like "oh what? I didn't know so many people would even appreciate my work, I'll choose a few more shmups for my next projects since they seem to love what I'm doing so much!" And while part of your rant is about the financial aspect of it and I agree people should be paid for their work (so they can afford to do MORE of it in the future! That's win/win for everyone lol), even people who can't afford to contribute money can still make a difference with a simple "Money is tight right now so I can't chip in but I'm so psyched about this project! Thanks for giving our genre some love!" and sometimes that can be enough to make someone enjoy working on that project just a little bit more or maybe even lower their fee a bit or throw in an extra feature or whatever just because they know what they're doing will be genuinely appreciated by the fans. As a gameDev who only stumbled across the community after starting my own shmup, it looks fascinatingly mercurial from the outside...like on the one hand this is the most dedicated fanbase who will pour literally thousands of hours of their lives into playing the same handful of stages in games made 20+ YEARS ago, happily paying full price for an imported re-release in another language if that re-release has removed 1 frame of input lag, dropping huge money for super obscure games & hardware buying old CRT TVs & monitors and turning them on their sides while building their own custom arcade sticks discussing spring pressure differences for 10 pages in a forum just to get the perfect experience... ...but then on the other hand when a new game comes out and it doesn't nail a person's exact specific preferences, it seems like a lot of people will almost instantly dismiss it with a "looks like a Euroshmup" or "ehh, not a bullethell" or "I'd buy it if it was on X system (that the dev needs to buy a dev kit and the system itself and pass approvals etc to even TRY to port to)", or worse a harsh post about how "X type of shmups suck and my superior specific preference of shmup is better so this game should have just been like what I want instead" that turns into a flame war lol and I'm sure part of the reason for that is BECAUSE shmup fans are willing to put thousands of hours of their life into a game so of course they'd have specific preferences for what type of game they enjoy doing that with...but that's often also the opposite preference that normies have, like a normie audience wants cutscenes and a multi-hour game with 50 stages and euroshmup shops to buy ship upgrades etc whereas lots of shmup fans hate cutscenes and shops and want a nice short experience to master so you're sort of damned if you, do damned if you don't. And it's totally everyone's right to feel however they feel, but as a dev I'd be lying if I said it wasn't daunting...like I'm making my dream shmup that I think is awesome and is the type of shmup I want to play and I'm making an effort to nail all the little details like a replay system and a training mode and minimizing input lag etc but I KNOW when I eventually start marketing it that like half of the genre's fans will see one screenshot and think "oh it's horizontal, vertical is better" and just dismiss it outright to go back to classic games made 20+ years ago lol Which again is totally their right to do, no gameDev is owed positive reception and I understand why people have specific preferences. But it feels like walking a tightrope and you have to mentally steel yourself ahead of time knowing that by default half the genre's fans in the already small community you're hoping your game appeals to, will probably immediately give zero fucks about your game off a first glance lol Contrast that with other genres like platformers or horror games where it feels more like fans of the genre are open to almost ANY decent indie game that comes out...from VVVVVV to Limbo to Celeste, or from Slender Man to Doki Doki Literature Club to Five Nights at Freddy's. And they won't pour thousands of hours into them like a shmup, but they'll buy them and make development profitable enough for the devs to make five more Five Night's games keeping the fans happy with new content and keeping the genre in the spotlight lol And obviously money isn't the only goal (Freddy style success stories are one in a million), but it IS something that both indie devs spending all their spare time working on their game for free (or watching their savings slowly drain if they quit their job to work on their games full-time) and larger studios that have employees with salaries and office space and other contracts to choose between etc have to take into consideration when they ask "is making new shmups viable?" One last thought: I'm not really participating in the community yet because as a dev I feel like the biggest contribution I can make is to just focus on spending my time making a cool game that hopefully gets the genre in the spotlight in front of normie eyes...that's going to be more useful than anything I'd post in an argument on a forum or Discord (even with this post I'm like "ahhh I gotta type faster and get to work already!!" lol) But I think part of the problem for the genre from a dev perspective is just how long it takes to MAKE a good shmup. Someone who barely knows how to code can follow a YouTube tutorial and crap out an indie horror game in Unity in a week, crammed full of asset store 3d models, dragging & dropping in pre-made lighting and fog rendering engines and input systems (with a dozen frames of input lag) and throw it up on Steam full of bugs and end up going viral when some big name YouTuber plays it and the 3d models' head clips through the ceiling and the AI is all glitchy and the game has zero difficulty curve and slows to 30fps in places, and no one watching or playing really cares about any of that. So hundreds of indie horror games come out every month giving genre fans plenty of new stuff to play and giving content creators tons of new stuff to make YouTube videos of, keeping those genres in the spotlight for the general public. Whereas with shmups it's like a new game desert...A couple guys sit down to start making their dream shmup and dedicate all their limited spare time or savings to making it, grinding away day after day dealing with the ups & downs of motivation and frustration and real life getting in the way or naysayers telling you to just get a real job etc until...after 10 YEARS of hard work an epic game like Zero Ranger FINALLY drops on Steam and FINALLY gives the community something to be excited about and finally gives content creators something to make a couple videos about...but then it's back to a new game desert waiting for some other game's 5-10 year long dev cycle to finish lol And I don't know about other devs but personally for me, knowing I still have a huge dev cycle to conquer and knowing that I'm targeting an already tiny (sometimes self-sabotaging ala today's rant) fanbase, I just poke my head up from coding now and then to see the latest dumpster fire thinking "oh man I hope this isn't the day that Mark gives up arguing with everyone and bails, or Ser finally runs out of shmups to cover on Bullet Heaven, or other channels give up and shut down after not being able to find new games to cover or barely getting 50 views on their videos...I just need them all to survive for another 2 years till MY amazing game is finally done and totally impresses them all and the genre is saved!!" ...lol ...ok I better stop typing before I accidentally convince myself how insane it is to even try this and that it'd be smarter to just go pump out some indie horror games instead OH GOD WHAT AM I EVEN DOING WITH MY LIFE?! lol...but no time for an existential crisis, I gotta open up GameMaker and get back to my shmup! ;)
Tsugumo
2021-02-04 19:28:00 +0000 UTCDigital Foundry just did a video on the Mister and heavily featured DDP. https://youtu.be/PfIwDC2F2lc
John Adams
2021-01-30 16:42:06 +0000 UTCYeah some real cognitive dissonance I think!
The Electric Underground
2021-01-30 03:41:08 +0000 UTCGlad the hear the project was funded. Finding it was objectively good for the entire community. It’s odd what people will argue against solely because they don’t want it.
RipTheJacker
2021-01-29 23:11:26 +0000 UTCI'm really glad to hear that my dude! Good news too, the project has been funded and I didn't have to pay the whole $500 ha. Thanks for tuning in and listening!
The Electric Underground
2021-01-29 03:14:05 +0000 UTCFrom someone that is new to this scene, sounds like there are some illogical arguments that is due to underlyned personal problems as you have stated. I've seen this malarkey before in other scenes. Always some bad apples no matter where you go. Even though I'm new to this community, I find what you are doing commendable 👍
Signal_RR
2021-01-28 04:53:02 +0000 UTCAh ok, thanks! So this guy only puts out the blueprint for the FPGA, so to speak, you still need the ROM from somewhere else to play it? And the IP only covers the latter?
Martin Wöhrle
2021-01-27 20:25:19 +0000 UTCGreat question Martin, so I do have a clear and legal answer for this one! So the way it works is that hardware emulation and even software emulation is 100% legal in itself. So for the case of the mister, creating a piece of hardware that is able to play a Dodonpachi rom is completely legal. Charging people for that hardware and to develop that hardware is also completely legal. Think of it like someone making a VCR. The legal grey area is the part of the user putting an illegally obtained rom inside that piece of hardware. In most cases, like SNES, it is actually possible to legally obtain roms if you have a rom ripper (like a super ufo) and then the situation is 100% clean. This also is very easy to do with disc based games as they are generally very easy to rip yourself. However, with arcade stuff, this is where it gets really grey because the boards are very rare and ripping their roms is expensive and complicated. So that's where the users tend to be naughty boys and play illegally downloaded roms. I need to make a vid about this actually because there's lot's of extra factors and stuff to talk about ha. I'll record one tonight!
The Electric Underground
2021-01-27 20:03:25 +0000 UTCI'm glad to hear that!! :-D so I think the mister will remain niche for the next few years. However, I do believe there will come a point where it will be more widely adopted by stuff like speedrunning and at that point I think it will start to become much more mainstream. MAME and software emulation was like that for a long time and now software emulation is very mainstream to the point where capcom will steal final burn alpha code and put it in their products.
The Electric Underground
2021-01-27 19:57:14 +0000 UTCPhilip in my experience this is 100% accurate. I have had hours long arguements with people on discord and the farm over the years just trying to convey some really basic points, but it's like I'm talking to a brick wall. And then I started doing more podcasts and vids instead of text and it seemed so much easier to communicate my points and people tend to understand what I am saying better. So a new mantra for me is if the point is somewhat complicated, make a vid or podcast about it.
The Electric Underground
2021-01-27 19:54:35 +0000 UTCHey Trace thank you for your contribution! You're on the list and the project is now fully funded! I'm sorry your commute home is so crazy long! Hopefully the podcast eps can help pass the time. I'm really glad you enjoyed the ep, I listened back to it and thought it was pretty entertaining, but it's hard to judge my own stuff sometimes ha. Yeah shmups have been stuck in a negative mindset for a long time, but we are definitely progressing forward from it, it's just been a slow grind ha. The trainer is now fully funded!
The Electric Underground
2021-01-27 19:52:09 +0000 UTCThis is definitely true, and as proof since this episode the project has been fully funded and I didn't have to pay for the whole thing myself. It really goes to show that the vocal minority are often pretty irrelevant if you don't cave into the negativity.
The Electric Underground
2021-01-27 19:48:42 +0000 UTCYeah it's really strange how that happens on discord so frequently but not on other platforms like youtube and patreon. Patreon makes sense because patrons tend to be more open minded to new ideas and that sort of thing, but it can be frustrating to make things happen on discord, and I'm not entirely sure why that is. Something about how the chat system works I think, impulsiveness I imagine. And yes, it took some but I think i figured out how to say guwange ha.
The Electric Underground
2021-01-27 19:47:09 +0000 UTCAnd I really have no clue about the following, so I hope it doesn't offend you, but I'm wondering: If someone recreates a PCB of a commercial game and puts that out to the public, isn't that technically a copyright violation? (I have no problem with him doing it, mind you, I think it's a great thing!) So wouldn't that put you in some kind of danger if you go and collect money to help him do it, if some IP hawk wants to go after the two of you?
Martin Wöhrle
2021-01-27 14:53:21 +0000 UTCNice rant, Mark, count me as entertained :-)! I only ever heard of this Mister / FGPA thing a couple of months ago on some retro gaming podcast, and it took me a good couple of hours googling to learn the mere basics. I am still struggling to grasp the tangible benefits of Mister over software emulation for retro gaming, other than it's obviously really cool :-). What's your take on this, you think Mister gaming will catch on outside of the tech enthusiasts niche?
Martin Wöhrle
2021-01-27 14:36:11 +0000 UTCThere have been studies done which all come up with variations on the basic premise that the human brain has trouble looking at text and processing the notion that there's a human being on the other side of it. Even a picture of the person doesn't help (See: Twitter. All of it). Once you realize you're dealing with a person who's not terribly self-reflective and whose brain on one level thinks it's just arguing with text or an image on a screen, it's easier to depersonalize criticism. (That doesn't mean one won't feel it though, especially if that criticism is directed towards something one has passion for).
Philip Mason
2021-01-27 02:01:36 +0000 UTCHey Mark, I listened to your whole rant podcast on my commute home (yes I have a long commute lol) and I just wanted to reach out and voice a little appreciation for all that you do. First off, I did find it entertaining and appropriate for the patreon bonus cast, since you asked for feedback on that. Like you, I'm sick of the insane levels of cynicism in the shmup world. I've lurked the shmups forum for years and never made an account solely based on how unpleasant some of the regulars are on there. The shmup scene is rivaled only by the "trve" black metal scene in it's dedication to willful obscurity. One of these days I need to actually get on discord and check out what y'all have going on over there. Anyway, even though the Mister is totally not on my radar as I mostly just play steam and console games, the concept seems really cool and I agree that it could end up being a boon to the shmup community at large. I'll chip in $10 to the fundraiser. Keep up the good work!
Trace McCauley
2021-01-26 23:55:57 +0000 UTCNice rant. I just want to remind you that the naysayers are always the vocal minority, I imagine most people are behind you or would support you but most people don't speak up to say so.
Ben Bishop
2021-01-26 23:49:15 +0000 UTCThe response you got on Discord was a bit rough, I understood that wasn't solely about DDP, it was about the devs time and the long picture. And thank you for finally pronouncing Guwange correctly. Loving your rant (still listening to it on the train)
Brian Reboot
2021-01-26 22:10:57 +0000 UTCYeah that's exactly right about the "secret club" aspect of the appeal for a lot of people. I've personally never been into something for the sake of it being niche in itself, ha that might just be a personality thing on my part. Yeah that story about the streamer sounds like something that I run into from time to time. I think a lot of it too is that people often overestimate their own ability to create something and underestimate the actual time and opportunity cost that goes into it.
The Electric Underground
2021-01-26 19:20:40 +0000 UTCSometimes you just have to let it all out! Good stuff and all very true. I don't know what more you can really do other than keep on keeping on and know that the true shmup homies appreciate all the work you put in behind the scenes. However, I really think there is a large contingent of people that actually don't want to grow the genre because then they lose out on the "Secret Club" aspect they think they have. When it comes to money it's like a switch is flipped for a lot of people, which is understandable to a certain degree I suppose, but people will definitely get nasty about it. For example, a smallish streamer that I watch commissioned a VRChat avatar for their own use and for use on the stream. They paid $200, fully of their own money. It was super high quality, completely rigged up and customized exactly how they wanted. Didn't even ask for any help at all paying for it, and when he mentioned in an offhand comment how much it cost, people lost it. You would think he took money from their wallets the way they acted. At the end of the day, a large majority of people don't think there is any real value in video game related stuff is the only thing I can figure.
Chinopolis
2021-01-26 17:42:51 +0000 UTC
