The Sopranos 4x11 Reaction
Added 2025-02-01 19:10:32 +0000 UTC
Comments
@Abacus to be fair, Bobby all things considered is a decent human being and he is not murderous.
Gaboxxy
2025-02-07 05:48:20 +0000 UTCI've gotten on the the train of thought that a perfect show for them to replace The Sopranos with would be Twin Peaks
Yarrow
2025-02-06 22:20:01 +0000 UTCThey root for Johnny Sack and Bobby because they love their wives and don't cheat on them, therefore they are the good guys. They hate Tony and the others because they are unfaithful to their women. The fact that they are all murderous gangsters who make a living from crushing the lives of regular folk is totally irrelevant to their judgement of the characters.
Abacus
2025-02-06 21:00:29 +0000 UTCStop it, you’re making me very upset!
Gaboxxy
2025-02-06 18:26:46 +0000 UTCCan you calm down? I don’t know why you feel SO defensive over this? To the point where you’re constantly calling me delirious? You could have disagreed with me normally the first time you responded and we would’ve had a civilized discussion you know that right? Yeah she’s evil, i’m not saying she’s a good person. I was pointing out why the reaction to her has more vitriol from the GENERAL AUDIENCE than, say, Paulie, or some other evil man in the show who’s also funny/entertaining. Because yes, she receives VITRIOL, which I don’t see many other characters receiving (in my limited time in this fandom). I find it so funny when people respond to the suggestion that gender bias exists with shock and so much angry pushback when it’s verifiably true that it informs every aspect of our judgement as humans. You haven’t convinced me of anything with your charged little rants because i see with my own eyes people’s reactions to Christopher’s horrific actions and then their reactions to Janice being generally evil or Adriana talking to the fbi, and i see the difference in their language when they talk about them myself. And the difference in moral leeway some characters get over others. I’d love to live in your reality where people judge others purely for their actions. People are hypocrites and I am too, biases exist, and i’m gonna continue believing a bias against her exists (like it does for many other female characters) until proven otherwise. Or until people examine their own biases and change. Although judging by your reaction to me pointing out the bias even exists, i doubt that’ll happen. I didn’t even accuse YOU of it, but your original reply to me was dripping with defensiveness and you immediately turned to insults. Won’t be responding anymore because this has been a waste of time. Have a good day.
jweher
2025-02-06 04:00:54 +0000 UTCShe doesn’t crack my top 5 sopranos characters and i don’t particularly like her. I just think she’s funny. My observation has nothing to do with how i personally feel about her, you guys just somehow felt attacked by suggesting that a character may be hated more due to a bias people have against women. Just look at your attitude responding to me. “Babygirl”? Is that really necessary?
jweher
2025-02-06 03:52:08 +0000 UTCThe sacred and the propane.
Gaboxxy
2025-02-05 20:03:59 +0000 UTC@jweher It seems to me you hate her less because she's a woman. If she were a man you'd call him a monster. It goes both ways baby girl. Everyone has biases. You see her has hilarious because as a woman you probably connect with her in some way, doesn't make her any less evil. Same with the men and male characters, we connect with some of these characters in one way or another and most of us have probably been manipulated by women like Janice or had a horrible mother like Livia so we hate them more than we would a male character.
BNJ
2025-02-05 14:39:30 +0000 UTCGirl, Janice also is a murderer AND a deadbeat mother LOL, what are you talking about? The hypocrisy is crazy. I’m not saying the men are “better” per se, I’m just saying thinking Janice is “objectively” better and acting shocked at why people would hate her is ridiculous and delirious, you are just trying to make a gender issue out of thin air. Even David Chase agreed she was worse than Livia, who in her own right is pretty horrible. Edit: and I forgot to mention she literally lobbied to have her own brother killed and wanted to steal from his mother. This isn’t even debatable anymore, she’s as evil if not more than the rest of them, you were simply talking nonsense.
Gaboxxy
2025-02-05 10:19:20 +0000 UTCYeah sure man, spin it like that. Manipulating kids is more hatable than murder and domestic violence. Leaving kids without parents because you’ve murdered them, or bankrupting their parents and destroying their home lives, is NOT directly harming kids! There’s no inherent bias against women that historically results in them getting hate for shit more than men who are equally bad or worse and me even suggesting that makes me.. delirious? You’re very smart!
jweher
2025-02-05 04:50:40 +0000 UTCExactly, so glad I’m not alone on this
Alex Martin
2025-02-05 00:02:19 +0000 UTCI disagree. Evil manifests different in men and women, but it’s evil nonetheless. Janice going out of her way to literally traumatize children and using their mother’s death in order to be their saviour and manipulate Bobby to be with her is a level of cunning and manipulative evil that not even the male characters have come close to. Not even Tony would directly harm kids. Implying she’s hated “just” because she’s a woman is delirious.
Gaboxxy
2025-02-04 23:49:29 +0000 UTC@Bxb not only those, but others like Saul Goodman, Walter White, Jesse Pinkman, Michael Corleone, the Phantom Troupe, Askeladd, etc, and they’ve been much more forgiving of all of those. Same way you wouldn’t act shocked at vikings acting like vikings in a viking show, it’s kinda weird they act so appalled at mobsters in a mobster show acting like mobsters lol.
Gaboxxy
2025-02-04 23:44:29 +0000 UTCEhh Tony becomes more unlikeable as the show progresses imo but I get it. It’s easier to root for him over characters we barely see. Johnny sack is my favorite of those guys in the show.
Bxb
2025-02-04 05:23:03 +0000 UTCSame it’s just interesting because I was always rooting for Tony
Alex Martin
2025-02-04 05:13:30 +0000 UTCI too love Johnny Sack
Alex Martin
2025-02-04 05:12:35 +0000 UTCI don’t mind because they are still enjoying the show overall which is good, but they rooted for characters in Vikings that make the worst people in sopranos look like powerpuff girls lmao
Bxb
2025-02-04 05:10:16 +0000 UTCIt is amazing man. They are already supporting New York Family and is season 4.
Diego Palma
2025-02-04 04:05:03 +0000 UTCA pint of blood costs more than a gallon of gold.
JG
2025-02-04 02:59:22 +0000 UTCIt’s so funny how much you dislike the characters for being bad people rather than conforming to their world and rooting for them
Alex Martin
2025-02-04 01:21:13 +0000 UTCMy fav thing about Carmin junior is he always uses the wrong word for things but it sounds close to the right word and no one ever mentions it to him.
Patrick
2025-02-03 14:29:11 +0000 UTCJanice is hilarious. I don’t get why she’s hated when she’s objectively less evil than the men in this show but just as funny (i mean, i do get it, she’s a woman).
jweher
2025-02-03 05:39:51 +0000 UTC"She couldn't even handle a Nancy Drew. It was too mysterious!" lmao
Mike
2025-02-02 20:41:30 +0000 UTCJanice is evil for this, but it's stuff like this that makes her even more hilarious. Idk why. Maybe because she actually has the audacity to go that far is so wild it's funny to me. I can't explain in.
daron85
2025-02-02 16:01:53 +0000 UTC@Marcus Cato — Provided a spoiler warning on the offchance that LM venture this far into the comments, I'd be interested to hear what/who you mean for the alternate theory. I'm not sure how long I'll be sticking around here after the end of s4.
Abacus
2025-02-02 15:34:24 +0000 UTCMelfi isn't the most ethical therapist but she was already established as a moral foil and voice for every other awful character in the show. She's the only one who made the hard choice over the easy choice by not telling Tony to kill her rapist. Charmaine is a moral mouthpiece as well but she was never actually tested in a way Melfi was. She is the one hope for Tony to actually change his ways. She actually got Tony to give a slight nod to the fact that he causes suffering while he was vulnerable over his horse's death, which is something he's never ever actually admitted before and is a new avenue and layer for his character (which is also telling that he quits therapy an episode later, it starts to become too real again). She's able to reach him in a way a lot of other therapist wouldn't be able to, especially if they aren't italian-american or a woman (which we know Tony associates with his mother/maternal authority figure but with a softer touch).
Veya
2025-02-02 08:38:16 +0000 UTCTony's panic attacks and dreams were always his conscience shouting at him. The caterpillar turning into a butterfly in the dream: Ralphie showed genuine possibility of changing after his son had that accident and Tony impulsively cuts it short. Melfi brings up if Tony is even interested in changing in the episode. The therapist Carmela spoke to also mentioned the idea of Tony being able to redeem himself if he does certain things. The ending of this episode is also important to establish that Tony's fate isn't actually written in stone yet. The red lighting in the bathroom gives it a hellish appearance, and afterwards he walks outside into the light where he starts to relax more. It was deliberately shot in a similar way to the end of the episode where he killed Ralphie and saw Tracee's picture and walks outside. A visual representation of his crossroad and a neon sign that he needs to continue therapy.
Veya
2025-02-02 08:33:26 +0000 UTCI'm glad you caught that
Rok Zupan
2025-02-02 08:23:52 +0000 UTCFully agree. Exquisitely shot, I can confidently say it's iconic. I even love the frog sounds in the background, it creates a moody, eerie atmosphere from the get go. Man such a carefully crafted scene. My much younger self used to think the dream from The Test Dream episode was the best dream sequence in the whole show, but as years went by, this brief dream sequence replaced by no. 1 spot. It captures the dream logic so brilliantly. It's simple yet it conveys the deep corners of Tony's subconscious so effectively. And also it managed to be somehow scary with so little. I love the dreams in this show. I'd say some of them even challenge Lynch's work (whom I'm a big fan of, RIP). Also, interesting to note: Tony saw himself as a mason in the dream. Tony talked a lot about first generation immigrants that were stone masons who built some of the landmarks in the city.
enchantertim
2025-02-02 05:38:28 +0000 UTCVery allegorical.
Bxb
2025-02-02 05:28:22 +0000 UTCThe fundamental question is if the next two episodes will be more effective than this one. And it will be, even more so. But until then, it's hard to verify if the next two episodes will be more effective than this one.
IanJ
2025-02-02 04:23:12 +0000 UTCevery character has an insanely abusive mother or father.. carmela serves that kid everything on a platter and when his dad gets mad at him he gets a heartfelt apology.. NONE of the adult characters got any kind of love like that. AJ can do no wrong in Carmela’s eyes and he still treats her like shit every day. keep the same energy for every other character who had 10000x worse childhoods
Zach D
2025-02-02 00:37:54 +0000 UTCif you make excuses for AJ you need to make excuses for every single character. AJ had a far better parenting and upbringing than every other character.
Zach D
2025-02-02 00:30:38 +0000 UTCSatan?
BNJ
2025-02-02 00:19:15 +0000 UTCDamn, I want the girls to experience Twin PEAKs but knowing Milena is as much of a scaredy cat as me makes me feel sorry for them if they do lmao
bondbond53
2025-02-01 23:48:38 +0000 UTCdespite seeing it years ago, rewatching the ending S2 E1 scared the fuck out of me lol. Bob full on sprinting down the hospital hallway and the image of Laura screaming staring into the camera. I forgot all about that so it really got me.
Darrach
2025-02-01 23:45:34 +0000 UTCAlso, it reminded me very lowkey to how unnerved I felt when Bob was coming closer to the camera over the couch (for the record this is maybe the scariest scene I've watched in my life; no horror is close enough so maybe not comparable but I had a similar shiver down my spine)
bondbond53
2025-02-01 23:43:11 +0000 UTCYeah, I think that's good advice.
Marcus Cato
2025-02-01 23:08:23 +0000 UTCThat scene with the mysterious woman on the stairs is one of the most beautifully photographed scenes in this or any other show. And the creaking of the door should have got the sound designers an award just by itself.
Marcus Cato
2025-02-01 23:06:59 +0000 UTCThere's an interesting theory that the mysterious figure on the stairs is not actually Livia, but it's tricky to discuss this theory without looking into the future. We will all have to meet back here later to discuss. 😂
Marcus Cato
2025-02-01 23:04:58 +0000 UTCDavid Chase was a big fan of Twin Peaks. I'm also guessing that David Chase was a huge fan of Luis Buñuel, who also used extended dream sequences in his movies. The body shop way back in Season 1 when Big Pussy was forcing the car thieves to steal another Saturn was called the Buñuel Brothers.
Marcus Cato
2025-02-01 23:02:58 +0000 UTCI’ve had nine Patreon comments under my sub-species
Darrach
2025-02-01 22:50:15 +0000 UTCAs someone who is rewatching Twin Peaks currently, yes it definitely has that feeling. Sarah Palmer running down the stairs anyone?
Darrach
2025-02-01 22:43:27 +0000 UTCOn further consideration, the leg could even be Livia. Given the previous discussion of the first dream and Tony saying that in the old days the wives would be sitting in the back. Fits with the olden days feel and Livia's looming unseen presence in the dream, she's facelessly emerging from the black car just before facelessly emerging coming down the stairs. I just convinced myself while writing this that it's Livia! Also, fitting with my prev comment about it not being one person but a combination, consider that Gloria was also combined with imagery of Livia in the 4x06 dream, taking place in a 1950s kitchen, and Gloria being linked with Livia throughout s3.
Abacus
2025-02-01 22:40:11 +0000 UTCI'm on the same page as you girls - that ending dream sequence with the dark figure in the house is lowkey the most unnerving imagery in the show for me. Very 'Twin Peaks' I would say
bondbond53
2025-02-01 22:39:06 +0000 UTCYeah agree to disagree on this one! Only two legs in the sense of the ensnarement analogy, the legs are spread like a pair of scissors via the reflection, beckoning Tony in as he approaches you can say. …If you’re so fucking smart, fix that tv!
Darrach
2025-02-01 22:37:52 +0000 UTCThis episode even outshone Ver-sails
kevin coleman
2025-02-01 22:33:56 +0000 UTCAlso, we met Little Carmine in this episode! Probably my top 5 favorite character for me (and also the funniest)
IanJ
2025-02-01 22:33:36 +0000 UTCTony was interested in changing earlier in the series, finding who he should have and could have been, a normal man with a loving family. But since the beginning of this season (and with the backdrop of 9/11), Tony has been pondering death and now he feels he's ready to go all in on what he knows will be the end of him, so why bother wasting time and more money in therapy trying to find the real him while making zero progress? All this leads to the dream at the end. Livia has always been some kind of a demonic presence looming over Tony, and here we have a terrifying depiction of her embodying that aspect even more. We also see Ralph and Gloria in the house at the end, and together with Livia they are the ghosts whose failures haunt Tony. Tony announces at the door, "I'm here for the masoner job." This is Tony's hell and in Tony's hell he is a poor, immigrant, manual laborer like his grandfather the master stone mason. Inside the house we can see the ghost of Livia standing on the stairs. Tony peers inside the house before he begins to step inside; because now Tony is on the path to his own personal hell. He's no longer interested in changing into a better man.
IanJ
2025-02-01 22:32:21 +0000 UTCAgree to disagree on the leg. For me, the white shoe doesn't really fit Gloria, seems much more coded for Svetlana, skin tone is inconclusive. It could even be Carm! Taking one leg reflected to mean two legs is certainly something Melvoin could argue in court, but for me it's a stretch... Though for us to argue it either way is probably missing the point — it's a leg in a dream, and it doesn't really make sense to try to establish its true owner as if it's a leg in the real world. In Tony's dream if it were a person we would see that person, but we don't. Maybe in his subconscious it's just a woman's leg, all his goomars rolled into one. Think of the goomars as ocean waves or currents of air, two tornadoes. They appear to be two things, right? Two separate things. But they're not. Tornadoes are just wind, stirred up in different directions. The fact is, nothing is separate... everything's connected. The shapes we see exist only in our consciousness.
Abacus
2025-02-01 22:20:56 +0000 UTCLittle Carmine is one of the highlights of the show, very glad they got to him.
John Collins
2025-02-01 22:14:31 +0000 UTCThey only think Janice and Junior are funny in this series? Damn
daron85
2025-02-01 22:09:42 +0000 UTCWow, that's awesome. I guess the "little boy" is not enough for Lola and Milena.
Clay F
2025-02-01 22:02:30 +0000 UTCThanks! On the leg, the leg coming out the car is singular, but it is reflected in the car panelling, making a pair. You are right about Svetlana being in that spot too, but the skin tone of that leg seems a much better match to Gloria than Svetlana in my eyes, being olive in its complexion. Reading about this dream after the show was really fascinating to me, this show operates on levels so much deeper than one can parse on a first viewing. As for the glass, hey you may be right, but with this shows love for subtle supernatural touches, and for it to fall in this particular episode regarding Karens ghost, for the precisely chosen shot (like all shots in this show) to obscure how the glass moves enough to create such an ambiguity is definitely interesting and as you say, has been worthy of note from eagle-eyed viewers. Most likely a continuity error as you say. However, as Bobby says: “on the other hand, anything is possible”.
Darrach
2025-02-01 21:52:24 +0000 UTC😈 Vlad666 😈
cheech
2025-02-01 21:47:55 +0000 UTC🤣😂
Johnny_Raincloud
2025-02-01 21:43:31 +0000 UTCI've seen people say this thing before about Janice's glass moving. They have their plates on rectangular place-mats, and her glass is on the edge of the mat. When she moves her plate slightly to start eating, the glass moves with it. As much as I love reading into the details of The Sopranos and especially the supernatural touches, this is one I'm pretty sure is a nothing burger which somehow has become a meme among fans who analyse the show. Nice breakdown on the dream, but worth noting the legs is just leg — pointedly, only one is seen, suggesting Svetlana, as she was also seen replacing Gloria on the left seat in the first dream. Most dreams in the show are fairly straightforward and easily placed in the narrative, and go along with some sort of explanation in the real world (eg the dream that starts this episode). This is an odd dream in how it doesn't seem so directly narrative based, and then it's followed by the wordless scene of him in the hotel room/balcony which itself is open for interpretation. I've always considered this dream to be a general sense of dread and loneliness from Tony. And it's crazy how the figure on the stairs is so incredibly unsettling.
Abacus
2025-02-01 21:41:55 +0000 UTCPeople’s estimation of us as men just fuckin’ plummeted 😭
Gaboxxy
2025-02-01 21:41:44 +0000 UTCOh dude. When they showed David Chase reading it at his funeral on the Wise Guy documentary...some asshole started cutting onions in my house. Whaddya gonna do. (I didn't even know they filmed his funeral in the first place)
Johnny_Raincloud
2025-02-01 21:29:10 +0000 UTCI am confident they will make excuses and defend aj for the rest of the show. Like they should.
Cole
2025-02-01 21:21:42 +0000 UTCJanice actually makes Tony look level-headed in comparison lol.
Gaboxxy
2025-02-01 21:17:08 +0000 UTCThe most hated are often the most entertaining & interesting tho lol
Bxb
2025-02-01 21:14:09 +0000 UTCHis performance was priceless. It even outshone Ver-sails.
Marcus Cato
2025-02-01 21:09:17 +0000 UTCThat actually made me tear up a bit, both for James and for Tony.
Gaboxxy
2025-02-01 21:00:14 +0000 UTCyou two better stop making excuses for AJ!
Zach D
2025-02-01 20:51:03 +0000 UTCL&M watch out that the season finale is an extra long episode, it's about 75 minutes, so make time for it. Definitely watch the last two episodes together, and leave 5x01 for another day.
Abacus
2025-02-01 20:39:48 +0000 UTCThat image of the Livia-like figure on the stairs, frozen in place, shrouded in blackness, is one of my favourite shots of the whole show, and also easily the scariest. Watching this again it actually makes my eyes water how unnerving it is. I would agree with the girls and say this is Janice’s most abhorrent action yet. The psychopathy in making a ‘scary’ AOL username, messaging a child with instructions to get the Ouija board, and to refer to yourself as “Rising Damp” to conjure the image of their mothers decomposing corpse, all to further make their grieving father feel dependent upon you, is really astounding. The Sopranos touches on the supernatural at times, and in this episode we see this again. When Bobby and Janice are sitting eating Karen’s last meal, Janice’s wine glass inexplicably moves on the table. Maybe the dead do have something to say to us after all? If we take Tonys dreams at face value, they certainly do. There is a great deal one can analyse in both this episodes dream sequences but I’ll try to be focus on the second, as the girls basically broke the first one down pretty well. The dream opens with an unknown woman’s pair of legs getting out of the car. Most likely these legs belong to Gloria, based on where the legs are coming out of the car, as well as how Gloria was introduced by her legs the first time we see her in Melfi’s waiting room. The first shot of the series is Tony in-between a pair of woman’s legs in this same room, framed between the statue he finds so entrancing, based on his look. Four seasons in and the pattern of Tony allowing himself/seeking out dark, dangerous, destructive women to be ensnared by is very clear to us. In this dream Tony is an Italian stonemason. This was his grandfathers profession, as he told Meadow in the first episode. The sound in this dream is dominated by the sound of crickets. Tony described how his favourite scene in The Godfather Part II was Vito in the old country, highlighting the sound of the crickets in that scene. The inside of the house may have been reminiscent of Tony’s childhood home but the outside is not. This is a Colonial style house and we have never seen this house before, so what does this house represent? Who’s house is it? Why is Tony working on this house? Why was Ralphie walking towards this house in front of Tony? I’ll come back to this in a future discussion, but this house is clearly important somehow and worth remembering. And then, Livia. Tony calls out to her, but gets no response, just silence. Her shadow seems to be all-encompassing, bleeding into everything around her silhouette. Livia was indeed an all-consuming bottomless black hole, as Tony told Gloria. As the woman herself said to a young AJ: “It’s all a big nothing.” The blackness and silence that emanate from this figure personify this philosophy. With Tony now having quit therapy, he has no one to delve into the meanings of these dreams and images, and is at more of a risk than ever of becoming that same black hole of a person his mother was.
Darrach
2025-02-01 20:29:04 +0000 UTCConnie Francis, who Carmela's father tells a story about running into at a store, is a famous Italian-American singer. She was born in Newark, so she is from the same place as these characters. That makes her 'one of theirs' who became a superstar. "Calling all cars" is an over-the-air radio call for when a dispatcher needs to contact every car receiver at once, instead of one specific car or area. It was in common use in the mid-20th century, and the phrase was used as the title for a radio show and several movies. Technically it was used by all dispatchers (For example, taxi cars and fire engines, etc.) but it is in the public consciousness specifically as a police emergency call. It is now used as shorthand for "Something serious has happened, and it needs an immediate reaction". Melfi saying it to her therapist is an explicit cry for help that she needs real support. I'm not sure how clear it comes across the language gap, but Little Carmine is famous for always making grammatical mistakes and using the wrong words when he speaks. He tries to sound intelligent, but messes it up. So if you ever wonder "What did that mean? Is our English not good all of a sudden?" it's not you, he's just a moron trying to sound smarter by using big words.
JBK405
2025-02-01 20:13:15 +0000 UTCPlease tell us that Severance reaction is tonight, pretty please :D
Andrew
2025-02-01 20:01:31 +0000 UTC4:27 David Chase reading James Gandolfini's eulogy at his funeral. "I really feel that, though I’m older than you, and always felt, that we are brothers. Now to talk about a third guy between us, there was you and me and this third guy. People always say, “Tony Soprano. Why did we love him so much when he was such a prick?” And my theory was, that they saw the little boy. They felt and they loved the little boy, and they sensed his love and hurt. And you brought all of that to it. You were a good boy."
Johnny_Raincloud
2025-02-01 19:46:10 +0000 UTCAnd that's why Janice Soprano was on the list of most hated characters...
The Josh
2025-02-01 19:43:31 +0000 UTCThe Sopranos Halloween special
Johnny_Raincloud
2025-02-01 19:17:35 +0000 UTC
