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Trillbilly Workers Party
Trillbilly Workers Party

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Premium 301: No Business To Stand On

We discuss Niall Ferguson's latest Axis of Evil/LOTR take, and then take a look at what's going on with protests on college campuses

Premium 301: No Business To Stand On
Premium 301: No Business To Stand On

Comments

Aaron low key predicting the coming annexation of Greenland.

Lucy McGillicuddy

..it's notable that Lord of the Rings as a work of fiction probably has one of the least elaborated on economical systems. It might as well be a gigantic anarcho-state, with trade and bartering happening in the periphery of the story. I don't really like the "lol libs" stuff, but it feels particularly salient that this book was chosen, in the way concepts like money, land and other material power is generally treated as kinda gross to talk about by liberals, so the specific reasons for conflicts gets run through this funnel of just pure ideas battling-it-out, or it becomes a question of individual morality (..and people of "good individual morality" coincidentally often live in places where most of the relevant political and economical power resides, making it pretty easy to maintain that good morality). As far as I know, Lord of the Rings was self-consciously created as a new mythological fable, like the icelandic sagas about giants and whatnots. It's opaque for a reason when it comes to things like state-craft, monetary systems, land-ownership, etc as understandable motivations for why characters do what they do. The characters in Lotr essentially act by divine inspiration or just narrative convenience in order to tell a larger, grand story ("I am the honorable knight, I am the good guy who in a moment of weakness betrayed my friends, I represent the simple way of life getting thrust into larger responsibilities that changes me as a person"). It might legitimately be one of the least useful texts for understanding any contemporary conflict.

Jesper Ohlsson

wtf is this Havana syndrome bullshit

William

Just coming on here to say my Alma mater started their encampment today and it is really helping me feel reenergized and hopeful. If you can go to one of these events, do it

Julia

You guys have been putting out some real heaters lately. Thanks for helping me feel a little a less crazy ❤️

splinkerbell

when i was really depressed i used to fall asleep to 5-4 because they were three friends. now that im super duper depressed i fall asleep to the trillbillies. thanks boys

bri

e eeeeee eeee ee eee e eee e ee e eeeeee eeee e eee eeee ee e ed e e e eee ee e ee e eee e e e e e e ee eed e ee e e e e e ee e eee e ee e eeee. eeee ee e e e e e ee e e ee eee e e e e e ee e e e e e e ee e e ee e ee e ed e eeee eee e e eeee e e ee eeee e e ee e ee e eeee e ee eee ed e e e e eede ede e ee e ee e e ee. ee ee e e e e e eee e ee e e e e eee e e e eede e e e e e eed e e ee e e e eee e e e e e e e e e e e ee ed ee e e e eee e ee ee e eee ee eeee e e e e e e ee edeee eeedee e e ee eee ee edeee ee eee e eee e e ee

daniel

e eeeeee eeee ee eee e eee e ee e eeeeee eeee e eee eeee ee e ed e e e eee ee e ee e eee e e e e e e ee eed e ee e e e e e ee e eee e ee e eeee. eeee ee e e e e e ee e e ee eee e e e e e ee e e e e e e ee e ee e ee e ed e eeee eee e e eeee e e ee eeee e e ee e ee e eeee e ee eee ed e e e e eede ede e ee e ee e e ee. ee ee e e e e e eee e ee e e e e eee e e e eede e e e e e eed e e ee e e e eee e e e e e e e e e e e ee ed ee e e e eee e ee ee e eee ee eeee e e e e e e ee edeee eeedee e e ee eee ee edeee ee eee e eee e e ee

daniel

e eeeeee eeee ee eee e eee e ee e eeeeee eeee e eee eeee ee e ed e e e eee ee e ee e eee e e e e e e ee eed e ee e e e e e ee e eee e ee e eeee. eeee ee e e e e e ee e e ee eee e e e e e ee e e e e e e ee e ee e ee e ed e eeee eee e e eeee e e ee eeee e e ee e ee e eeee e ee eee ed e e e e eede ede e ee e ee e e ee. ee ee e e e e e eee e ee e e e e eee e e e eede e e e e e eed e e ee e e e eee e e e e e e e e e e e ee ed ee e e e eee e ee ee e eee ee eeee e e e e e e ee edeee eeedee e e ee eee ee edeee ee eee e eee e e ee

daniel

e eeeeee eeee ee eee e eee e ee e eeeeee eeee e eee eeee ee e ed e e e eee ee e ee e eee e e e e e e ee eed e ee e e e e e ee e eee e ee e eeee. eeee ee e e e e e ee e e ee eee e e e ed e eeee eee e e eeee eede ede e ee e ee e e ee. ee ee e e e e e eee e ee e e e e eee e e e eede e e e e e eed e e ee e e e eee e e e e e e e e e e e ee ed ee e e e eee e ee ee e eee ee eeee e e e e e e ee edeee eeedee e e ee eee ee edeee ee eee e eee e e ee

daniel

e eeeeee eeee ee eee e eee e ee e eeeeee eeee e eee eeee ee e ed e e e eee ee e ee e eee e e e e e e ee eed e ee e e e e e ee e eee e ee e eeee. eeee ee e e e e e ee e e ee eee e e e ed e eeee eee e e eeee e e e ee. ee eede e e e e eed e e ee e e e eee e e e e e e e e e e e ee ed ee e e e eee e ee ee e eee ee eeee e e e e e e ee edeee eeedee e e ee eee ee edeee ee eee e eee e e ee

daniel

e eeeeee eeee ee eee e eee e ee e eeeeee eeee e eee eeee ee e ed e e e eee ee e ee e eee e e e e e e ee eed e ee e e e e e ee e eee e ee e eeee. eeee ee e e e e e ee e e ee eee e e e e e ee ee e eee ee eeee e e e e e e ee edeee eeedee e e ee eee ee edeee ee eee e eee e e ee

daniel

Relieving to hear I’m not the only one for whom sex feels like a distant memory and stamina is a problem

michael benham

oh yeah, i definitely agree that it’s internally consistent on all those points. i think, though, that it’s not an either/or, both readings are present, and you have to read it both ways. very much an intent vs impact distinction. imo it’s pretty important that it was **written**, not just read, in the empire that was the leader in inventing colonialism and racism, and the best thing you can say about Tolkien there is that he’s just very airheaded about that whole side of things and is regurgitating that racism totally unconsciously. because yeah, if you read both together, it makes zero sense, which is a great reason to never apply his work to real world politics. also does not help that one reading is very subtle and the other is very blatant. the “return of the king” and the Numenoreans are probably the best example of that contradiction. they are divinely blessed with long life, a special land, and other gifts as a reward for their loyalty, suffering, and heroism in the War of the Jewels, and those gifts fade over time as they get farther from the divine and become less morally good, but the gifts are still hereditary. and they talk about it explicitly in terms of purity of bloodlines and “mixing with lesser men,” so much so that it’s pretty much universally acknowledged that Aragorn is the only hope for leading them out of that situation. which is not that it’s a foregone conclusion that he’ll succeed, it’s not, but he’s the only one with enough potential to do so. so there’s no way you can make sense of that - all you can do is choose to suspend disbelief or not.

Madeline

They're now doing the "we have to shut down the protests because of 'anti-semetic activity'".

Lucy McGillicuddy

Also, I mean "racial hierarchy" as a project of making ontological distinctions between immutable 'types' of people; opposed to describing people who look and act different because of long lineages of geographic and cultural differentiation. Where the latter is very commonly narrated in mythologies and the former is a modern ~16th century invention.

dylan4prez

Yeah for sure some of the "swarthy easterners" and "virtuous westerners" stuff is pretty rough! But I think those racial hierarchies emerges from how the text is read, primarily whether it is (generously) read within the terms of its own universe or more pragmatically read intertextually within contemporaneous society. For example, the Silmarillion doesn't really characterize other groups of humans as ontologically evil so much as their allegiance to evil arises through Sauron's evil manipulation. But in a racist, Euro-centric society, that subtly is totally lost and you just get evil brown guys! And the Elven hierarchy stems from proximity to the godliness and "Goodness" even though they all have equal dignity from the Creator. Which is a very mythopoetic and Catholic way of writing morality into a story, but again one that gets interpolated into a racial hierarchy when read as a novel in a thoroughly racist society. Which is why I resist making any political analogies from LotR haha. There are too many questionable pieces that are only agreeable when read in a specific context.

dylan4prez

i don’t think that’s really true there’s no racial hierarchy? i get what you’re saying, and i don’t think he necessarily **intended** it to be read that way, but it’s hard not to read “the swarthy men of the east and the brown men of the south, who are easily swayed by evil” any other way regardless of intent. it’s more that the racial hierarchy is within species than across them - like there are a lot of elves who are scrubs, and they’re 99% of the elves in Middle-Earth in LOTR. it’s also interesting because there’s a hierarchy of goodness and a hierarchy of greatness, and they’re not the same at all; it’s actually that the sins of the great are cataclysmic (and the whole plot of LOTR centers around avoiding exactly that mistake)

Madeline

yeah, it’s so interesting about Tolkien, because thematically, he’s writing against industrialization and mechanization, the exploits of nature, and domination, all hallmarks of European colonialism and epitomized in the world wars. but, at the same time, he’s obsessed with the idea of writing the English national epic and does not seem aware that that lands a bit different in the 20th century than in, say, the 6th century. so that’s how you get Tolkien writing, consciously or not, about the “fair men of the west” against the “swarthy men of the east and the black and brown men of the south.” and that’s how you get Palantir, which i can’t believe no one has mentioned yet? because on the one hand, Palantir is the pinnacle of what Tolkien would have hated, including in the text of LOTR, but you also can’t say what Thiel & co like it for is not also in the text

Madeline

I was reading the Shelby Foote wikipedia. Has this been covered on the show? Daniel Craig Based His ‘Knives Out’ Accent on a Famous Civil War Historian. https://www.cheatsheet.com/entertainment/daniel-craig-based-his-knives-out-accent-on-a-famous-civil-war-historian.html/

Jerimiah

30k a year in the 1960s is worth soooo much more than 80k today

Bee

I second this! Fantastic book.

Gary Shandling

Y'all need to sell me a fucking sticker or something.

Chuck Notaro

Will all these privileged woke student protestors denounce the empanada???

synthmage

Post stache!

Jordan Hunnicutt

Tom made at least two Great Milenko references on this ep. I just wanna say I see you, I hear you.

Jordan Hunnicutt

LotR discussion made me think of The Last Ringbearer by Kirill Eskov, which tells the same story but from the perspective of Mordor as a place of rational, scientific/alchemical society that is attacked by the lib warmongers/religious weirdos in Gondor. Apparently it was very popular in Russia in the nineties

R.Teeth.Bones

https://mondoweiss.net/2024/04/i-resigned-from-the-world-central-kitchen-because-it-refused-to-tell-the-truth-about-the-israeli-genocide-in-gaza/?utm_content=buffer27b39&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter&utm_campaign=buffer [excerpt]: Much of the work in a genocide is not pulling the trigger, but instead minimizing and denying that a genocide is going on. Genocide is a phenomenon of gradual boundary pushing. Each increment must be accepted by the parties with agency for the next to be reached. Under the direction of CEO Erin Gore, Linda Roth, and “Chief Feeding Officer" José Andrés, World Central Kitchen recklessly endangered its personnel, selfishly exploited the situation for its own benefit, and actively participated in the normalization of an ongoing genocide. Save the possibility of genuine incompetence, the WCK leadership's decisions were not made to maintain neutrality, did not increase effectiveness, and, as April 1 demonstrated, did not protect personnel. The leadership's failure to honestly portray the dire reality in Gaza, and lack of an attempt to influence the genocide in Gaza via its status and close ties with the Biden administration, means that they bear responsibility for its outcomes. Let no one say they did everything they could. Mine was only one experience. When I resigned, there was a palpable, widespread atmosphere of disappointment and anger among employees, stemming from issues that began long before I signed on. I am calling on current and former World Central Kitchen employees, contractors, and volunteers to publicly share their stories and force accountability and change.

Mike

No it's a trans neptunian object

E

How to hide an empire is a great book about american expansion beyond the contiguous American empire

L

As a long time white guy, I second this.

Guy Incognito

Haircut radio hour, what a great way to start the show! I think we need to see Tom’s mustache.

Nikki

...not a lot of people know this, but not only does "The prisoner of Azkaban" have a satisfactory resolution to the Prisoner's Dilemma, but it also has a complete, unedited floorplan of Guantanamo Bay in the thanks-section.

Jesper Ohlsson

the guy who was in charge of the aid strike admitted he did it on purpose

daniel

As a long time listener, first time commenter, I’d like to say that Aaron is correct about Riker.

Caitlin Kellogg

If I see Matt Miller talk about "inquiring" about another unspeakable war crime I may just lose my mind. Just a despicable human.

Jonathan Howard

Falcor for best beast

Leyland

I hear ya! The orcs in the movies are super duper racialized! But in the text of the Silmarillion, orcs are a lineage of elves that become the foot soldiers for evil by Morgoth abusing the shit out of them for thousands of years. Yet they are not described as beasts and sub-persons. Nor are they given much interiority in Tolkien's work but I think he left plenty of space to do so. In the movies, Peter Jackson & crew made the choice to give them dreads and appear rather beastial and other nasty shit. They also chose to depict the humans that allied with Sauron as Asian even though the text doesn't make those kinds of firm racial distinctions. Which is precisely what I meant by saying race ~can~ be read into the story if someone wants to find it. Very much in the same way racists will make biblical claims that black people are the the descendants of the Tribe of Ham which is why they are inferior.

dylan4prez

The Hobbit names are actually translated from a Turkish analog. Tolkien confirmed it. Sam gamgees real name is Banazîr Galpsi.

Tom Rogers

I'm not a big LotR guy but this (orcs are equivalent to elves in story) seems really off to me. For starters, Elves are immortal and we see elves in the story who witnessed events of the first age. But there are no indications that orcs have lives like this. You'd think there would be a scary orc general or something who lived hundreds of years and had great infamy or whatever if they were immortal. Doesn't disprove it but it seems dubious to me. Second, orcs are born orcs. The differentiation doesn't seem to be a thing that happens to an otherwise normal elf. It seems a taint that inherit from their birth. That might be over reliant on the movies, but I think that's strongly implied from the uruk hai, who are selectively bred. That's essentially an eugenics program. I don't see how that doesn't itself imply ideas of racial hierarchy.

Vincent

I knew someone would have my back on this. Thanks for clearing it up for me. 😅

Ralley Taura

Fun LotR geopolitics fact: early in the Ukraine war, there were instances of Russian forces being compared to orcs, most notably in the caption of a video tweet made by the Azov battalion showing them greasing bullets in pork lard for use on Chechan (Muslim) soldiers.

Vincent

They are the descendants of elves who were tortured to the point of becoming corrupted by hate.

Vincent

Also I read the silmarillion recently and by my interpretation, the racial heirarchy isn't ~really~ in the text unless you want to find it there. (And Peter Jackson really wanted to find a racial heirarchy!) For example, the orcs are elves as much as all the high elves but they were captured and made evil by Morgoth (LotR satan) before they could reach the edenic land of the Ainur (LotR arch angels). By Tolkiens own description, Middle Earth is meant to be a Norse-like mythos for Britain crossed with Catholic morality, not a geopolitical allegory. Unless, like with the Bible or Norse mythology, a reader wants to find a gross allegory

dylan4prez

That is the post paranoid reading of LotR I have ever heard.

Jason Edmiston

Love the Cuts on Lime shoutout, those are some capital B Barbers

big red

https://www.counterpunch.org/2024/04/22/columbia-universitys-shai-davidais-family-tied-to-weapons-manufacturing/

Richie A

That Shai punk is apparently the son of a billionaire investor and weapons dealer which would explain both how he's got a gig teaching business at Columbia and also why he's such an annoying brat.

Richie A

Aaron is right: no more sci-fi / fantasy allegories for geopolitics! ... unless China comes out with a battalion of microchipped Uruk-Hai then it may be warranted

dylan4prez

Hilarious article just popped up on the news feed on my work computer btw. From Fox News. "2024 will be 'toughest' labor market 'in our lifetime': Report". Obviously I panic clicked. The quote is from RedBalloon's CEO (where RedBalloon's LinkedIn description starts with "America's #1 non-woke job board"), and the article's actually about how tough the labor market is for employers lol. A quote: "To summarize the situation employers face: there are less people overall, fewer working-aged people willing to work, more retirements, a higher number of jobseekers with mental health challenges, and an explosion in labor-related lawsuits against employers." The study they're reporting on estimates about 7mil working age men who are either unemployed or not actively looking for employment. Why does RedBalloon's CEO think this is? Because social media and university have made them too woke lmao.

Some Guy

thinking about that secular settler that, when asked about why he settled if not for religious reasons, he said "i have an Israeli passport." I think where we're going in the future is gonna be like Robert Heinlein's Staship Troopers, a gender egalitarian, racial egalitarian, militaristic empire whose sole justification for their dominance will be "i'm in the global north and you aren't"

Fingerless

I thought the orcs were some kind of sub race of elves? Am I making that up?

Ralley Taura

Need pics of Tom’s stache.

Mickey Soltys

higher education teaches critical thinking skills, which is something businesses can’t replicate in their training programs. It’s why businesses like Walmart have been making deals with university systems to have special tuition rates so they can create store managers and regional managers. How do you deal with people you’ve empowered with the confidence to think on their own? Control the curriculum where you can by ideologically capturing whole fields, but also debt servitude, so their livelihood depends on them not acting on those original thoughts

William

If math and science were good career paths the math and science departments of American universities would not b dominated by international students.

Mickey Soltys

Tom, here's the Urban Outfitters Kent State sweatshirt you mentioned. UO said it was a one-off vintage find (...suuure) https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/mbvd/urban-outfitters-features-vintage-red-stained-kent-state-swe

Sam

Oh, speaking of misunderstandings over what civil War means, in middle school history class I asked what the definition between a civil War and a revolutionary war was, and several students simultaneously exclaimed in disgust and rolled their eyes at me. Like 20 years later I figured out that they thought I was asking what the moral difference between our Civil war and our Revolutionary War was.

Andrew Dunn

A couple years ago, one of the hosts went to a town with some project founded by patch adams, so there was a high percentage of clowns, and the hosts debated the proletarian nature of ICP

Andrew Dunn

Carlin again, paraphrasing..they want workers just smart enough to run the machines but, dumb enough so they don’t figure out how bad they’re getting fucked over for a society that dumped them overboard 40 years ago. Generative AI is (one of) the new tools to be just smart enough to use, while we feed it

Wilford

I feel like my half-informed assertion was in the spirit of the show though

Cory Bradfield

Stop the presses, they apparently brought it back after my kids moved on from dinos https://www.livescience.com/animals/dinosaurs/why-was-the-name-brontosaurus-brought-back-from-the-dead

Cory Bradfield

That elephant was in my hometown of Butte

Scott Boehler

Toms a Juggalo? Two ICP references in this episode. If that's true you're cooler than I already thought you were.

Mark Hardgrove

Don’t forget- Owen Hart was in the Nation too. (Is that why they killed him?)

Eva

Nile fergey’s son should just be welded into a 55gal steel drum already

William

Math grad here, I know the feeling. Basically spent my first three years after graduation doing data entry for between $12-15/hr (granted, a couple of those years were peak covid). Got better eventually, but you might be roughing it for a few years, just gotta stay strong.

Some Guy

WHAT?!?!!!!

Trillbilly Worker's Party

In Tolkien's abandoned sequel to the LOTR trilogy set 75 years later (he only wrote a couple chapters), he straight up says that without the influence of Sauron, the Orcs basically act like humans and form their own societies. However the other races still treat them with suspicion and xenophobia because of the legacy. Tolkien also made the way Orcs were originally created non cannon because he felt making an entire race born evil went against his Catholic beliefs.

Rob Ford

Banger Ep keeping me mentally unwell and safe

holystar64

listening this while forging an axe head

krumping4

That Hillary tweet is the chart of election importance. At some point on that graph the planet is cooked and we can elect a picture of Tom Selleck as president for all the good it will do.

Aaron

Not sure if it's the essay you're thinking of, but Michael Moorcock wrote a well known essay on LOTR's conservatism, 'Epic Pooh'

John Pike

Y'all don't have kids so are understandably behind on your dinosaur facts. Turns out there never was a Brontosaurus; they fucked up and mixed up some other dinosaurs. They don't refer to Brontosaurus anymore, it's been Plutoed.

Cory Bradfield

I have been a bit depressed because I had a bachelors in physics and have been unable to land a job after a year+. Even going into "pliant" field does not guarantee that you're setup. It is good to hear from you guys, because I think if I did not have a framework for understanding the current world's machinations, then I would have gone into the rubber room long ago.

Mason

Brontosaurus Joe Biden "Trying to eat me? I'm gonna stomp you so...you know what, I'm sorry man..."

David Brown

If I was in charge of The Climate, first thing I would do is to outlaw Black Swan Events. I hate that shit. So stupid. Second, I would do a bunch of smart shit. Have you ever heard of the saying "work smarter, not harder"? Yeah, it's going to be a lot of that. Third, well, if everyone just behaves like a decent person and trusts the process, it'll be sorted, won't it? Thank you, that will be 80k. I want it in my account before next monday. I need it for stuff.

Jesper Ohlsson

i love this *snaps*

notme

..."we're gonna hit zero-CO2 in 2050" is like ensuring people that the train heading your way will stop roughly halfway from where it is now, despite it demonstrably accelerating every feet travelled, and never once - in its entire trajectory - having shown any inclination to slow down (or even keep pace). But it's for sure gonna happen though. And more importantly, it will happen in a planned and controlled fashion; not through a series of cascading collapses of interwoven systems that would make prognostication in the here and now seem like child's play. ...It's so awesome that these people can just say these things like it's not painfully clear that their ability to predict uncertainty (and plan accordingly) is, at best, about a year or two forward. But yeah. Go off queen. Give me your 20-30 year strategy. And hey; don't sweat the details.

Jesper Ohlsson

My barber went to appointments during covid but now it’s back to walk ins. Might not have to wait at all or I might wait two hours. I agree that all three of you need to do something with (Murder)Bryan.

Cory Waring

(Apologies for posting before listening) - Visited the Yale protests - mutual aid and chants with a drum blocking an intersection. But of course the media goes to “violent protestors” to discredit the whole thing. (Also the flagpole eye stabbing thing is a lie - I’ve asked around including with Yale daily news sources) Anyway, cheers for another ep boys, I’ll settle in now

Corey Herrmann

Tom's existential monkey scream of pain helped me get by today.

AL

I was just saying the other day that I related so much to the hobbits. Now I know why.

Will McKinney

I found The Very Hungry Caterpillar an invaluable resource in the early days of Afghanistan. Sure, it's ostensibly for children, but there's a lot of cool things for adults in there as well that are not to be slept on. It gave me a good bird's-eye view whenever I got too bogged down in the minute-to-minute details.

Jesper Ohlsson

For real, the Tom episodes are already my favorites

AL

Tarence and Aaron, please go on Guys! They said they want the other trillbillies on there

Tyler

Been waiting ages for a LOTR episode

Noah Shue

Sup

McMiller


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