IN 3x2

Mark and Eve do just have a crush, I mean, mark said he loved amber, then they slept together, that’s not a thing you just do with anyone

Wisdom Abrahamson

Think you might be downplaying this whole "desk thing". Just because he didn't break it doesn't mean it wasn't violent or threatening. Imagine you are a manager at a work place and one of the employees storms in, pounds on the desk and starts yelling at you. That is 100% threatening. Just because he "could" of done more doesn't take away from that. This may not seem threatening as a normal to normal person, like you and Montana argue and she walk towards you and be like I disagree. BUt imagine if it was some 250 heavyweight who you know could just end you easily...that type of motion is very different. Or someone walking towards you with a knife. Mark doesn't have a knife..he is the knife. Also, keep in mind the start of this Episode showed that Cecil use to thing just like Mark, "I don't work with criminals". But he went through an experience that changed his way of thinking. Mark hasn't had such a experience. Mark right now is a very black and white, my way or no way kind of mentality. Cecil has said in previous season that they operate in a gray area. Cecil was at no point antagonizing Mark, but it sounds like it to mark. He could of done a better job but lets be honest, If mark was to ever be like Nolan, there isn't Mini Mark to stop him like Nolan had. They have nothing. Taking measures to ensure the safety of the world would then trump Marks "not opting for an implant". They need a way to make sure he can't do what Nolan did. And even though Mark has disagreed with Cecil before, Cecil has never used it before now. Even when mark is saying things like "Im just talking" he does so while also moving towards Cecil every time. Its very much a realism vs optimism situation where Cecil is the realist and mark is the optimist. And Mark is 100% a hypocrite wanting this for his dad but refusing it to anyone else. Mark is acting like a spoiled brat, and he always had. Even in Episode 1 or 2, when his mom confronts him and his very initial reply was "Make me". This 100% proved Cecil point, and Marks point. People do change, and if the precautions taken by Cecil were 100% necessary. You hope to never use it, but you are glad they are there because when it you need, its important. It would be nice if people could walk around in sketchy cities or neighborhoods hoping to not get robbed or car stolen, but you wouldn't just "hope" it doesn't happen, you would make decisions to minimize that risk. Mace, rape whistles, guns (in some states) used to protect yourself. You hope to never have to use, but at times it would be foolish to not have them and just "hope" people will act correctly. Thats just not realistic Mark is too strong, and too much of a liability that have the same kind of individual respect awarded to others. It sucks, but thats the way it is. Its even the same way our own Prison system works. Even murders, criminals and other people can end up being useful. Question is, should they be allowed too? What if the person who robbed 2 people and killed him in the process could cure cancer for example? Mark is still an optimist because he is young and hasn't had the experiences yet. That can be very dangerous. Just look at his brother who is so young and so powerful and answers with questions like "why didn't you just kill him then". Mark is to Cecil as Oliver is to Mark in terms of life experience. The show is posing multiple delimas that people will take different sides on an that even today, we haven't yet to truly find a universally correct answer for.

Rydis -

Cecil lies because he believes the truth will cause chaos. But by hiding information from Mark, he creates the exact chaos he's trying to prevent. Mark isn't just a tool — he's a person, a young hero trying to understand his place in the world. When the people around him lie, manipulate, and treat him like a weapon, he reacts with confusion, anger, and even violence.

:4 Bosch

The problem is that Mark is basically a nuclear deterrent. Someone doesn't have to say "or else" in order to imply it. Amd yes binging this now that I rejoined the server. Mark confronted Cecil for his choices he disagree with. Whatis the point of that? What was Mark going to do if Cecil still didn't budge? Just showing up inperson can easily be precieved as a threat. I do think Cecil is wrong for the implant. But it's hard to not see the reason from a military point of view. It's easier to see that than it is Sinclair who still has yet to show an ounce of empathy towards others. With the flashback stuff I do wonder what appoarch is being take with the rehabilitation. Are they giving them therapy as needed or brain washing. The words used could be the latter which I thibk is bad. But I do think those 2 and dark wing could be rehabilitated by therapy and working through things.

Suplee215

i get ur point but cecil also couldve just done what mark said and cecil is also wrong for putting that shit in his ear and not telling him that the person who almost got his best friend killed and gf and so many other people is working for him.Mark is also going through his own moral dilemma so thats conflivting him too like i dont think people give him enough credit in this moment but damn cecil barely tried to meet mark halfway on anything

Camari Selvy

Cecil was 100% in the right she was not antagonizing Mark. He was trying to calm him down while making sure he was safe at the same time. Mark was the one that was aggressive, and he was the one who attacked first and Cecil gave him multiple chances to stop, but he didn’t were Mark really messed up was when he was angry and then he started to walk towards Cecil

Cedric Williams

Another team Cecil here Not 100% mind you, I feel the one thing he could've done better was potentially address the shady dealings sooner, and not in the heat of the moment (but then again, these are measures meant for mark as well in case he goes rogue...so he doesn't wanna show his hand) Cecil has literal experience with what happens with a hostile viltrumite (multiple times actually) including that mark, when he was (understandably) angry practically disintegrated someone Mark comes in, making demands, KNOWING Cecil can't physically push him around...seeing the anger rising, cecil TRIES to cool him off and ask him to leave. He refuses, getting angrier. At this point, even if he believes he won't hurt him...he doesn't know what he's going to do. He has NO intention of giving in to his demands, so what level will mark take it to so that he MAKES his demands met? Even when the one reanimen grabs him, that itself was NOT a threat...it was an attempt to stop his advance towards Cecil (bc as we see just minutes later, the superspeed mark is capable of means at that distance, Cecil is still fucked if it comes to that)

Jinchuriki87

?? No, it was to train Mark, not play—the kid’s feelings be damned. He literally said no and started sobbing when asked if he was okay.

Timothy Heck

When asked if he was okay, the kid said no and started sobbing. That whole scene was foreshadowing of the conflict in this episode: How many of Cecil’s actions do we excuse in the name of the greater good?

Timothy Heck

a 19 yr old who can fly at super speeds and kill you a million ways before you even realize what happened.

mal

I wonder what would they think of Batman then

Angel T

Fr if Cecil didn’t do anything Mark would’ve just tore up the whole Pentagon looking for Sinclair. Cecil also stated that he’s afraid of Mark

Joseph

You think I’m finna sit in office with the guy with super strength yelling at me nope even if it’s 0.1% chance he kill me im still be prepared fuck that mark also attacked first he stepped forward to Cecil so the robot grabbed his arm to stop him and the first thing he do is turn around and immediately punched bro bottom jaw off like tf 😭

Kingmakaii

It’s up now!

Letts React

Damn!!!!!!!! This episode was insane like idk if I can wait to watch with them that was not what I expected

Justin Spencer

Mark wasn't flying at him though. They purposely put the reflection in mark's eyes to be the reanimen. Cecil stepped over to him. Mark never threatened Cecil until later. Mark was only hurting the reanimen

Michaela Talley

No because the only way you can see mark as right is if you can’t, think outside of yourself and realise that mark towers above the rest of humanity and people are literally terrified of him. Cecil more so because he knows he is Omni mans son, imagine if the rest of the planet knew too

NasOKM

Don’t you think It is a bit extreme to say that you can only side with mark if they are privileged

Braden Jackson

Can we get invincible s3 ep 3 today?

Wolffe5989

Only people with extreme privilege agree with mark. I can’t get how people think he’s in the right. He’s the most dangerous person on the planet acting like his way of thinking is the only way. I’d never make this argument but imagine a man imposing his will and ideology on his partner because of his physical superiority. But we would never look at the man’s partner wrong for taking measures to defend themselves against intimidation

NasOKM

Oh no the purpose of scene was not lost on me. I understand the intent and it was very hard to miss since I watched episode 1 and 2 back to back. I appreciate the explanation but it wasn’t necessary. My point about the trope still stands as that all happens before any parallel with Mark is formed. By the time the stuff relevant to the scar concluded I could focus on the parallels with Mark.

Alseriph

I feel like he should’ve been given the benefit of the doubt, given he’s risked his life fighting his own dad for everyone else’s lives, fought Anissa defending the planet (his morals wouldn’t even let him lie when Cecil told him to say he’d help take over the planet), and felt terrible grief and sorrow whenever he did end up finally (accidentally) “killing” someone (that arguably was his last option)… I may be wrong but this is my thinking about his actions up until this scenario. I feel like saying he’s a walking nuke is much of an exaggeration considering his dedication to the good of earth and has done nothing to show he’d hurt anybody.

MrCaesar

It was omitted babes. 😊

Alayna Petty

She'll need an Invincibeve to handle Mark

Bob Loblaw

is that in the comic at this point and was omitted or did you just spoil it 🤨

blitzø

Mark is more like a 19 year old GOD with slight anger issues. Cecil's crash out earned him 3 years in what looks like the worst prison for a normal man. There's no throwing Mark in a prison to reform him. He's a walking talking nuke with a hairpin trigger and Cecil is a human past his prime. Can't just take marks aggressive body language and give the benefit of the doubt.

Bob Loblaw

They weren't just working on season 2 though. Kirkman said they also made a lot progress on 3 and 4 to avoid more long gaps in the future. And he recently added it'll be roughly a season a year going forward so it paid off. That's more important to me.

blitzø

I think if it LOOKED like they took their time with season two less people would have complained. It's mostly the art I think that sucks but only when compared to the source material and other animated shows. The animation isn't that bad.

Bob Loblaw

Exactly the race car bed is on the line

Braden Jackson

"I'm not leaving until Sinclair and Darkwing are both back in prison." Mark was 100% throwing his weight around at that point. Cecil was never going to listen (because why would he?), so Mark would've done it himself because he thinks he knows better.

Juan Solo

It's a good argument, but unfortunately it still wouldn't work on Mark. If it was about recruiting anyone Mark doesn't have personal beef with he might listen, but that's a big maybe. As others have pointed out, it took Cecil over 3 years to come around to the idea of working with criminals. Mark doesn't have that luxury with the imminent Viltrumite takeover. It's going to take whoever the Empire sends to devastate Earth for Mark to get his head out of his ass, to everyone's detriment.

Juan Solo

Normally you'd be right, but Mark has already proven to be a threat when he loses his composure.

Juan Solo

He could let him know a little easier by leaving the Sinclair part last, like: Mark, with the iminent viltrumite invasion, we're going to need all the strength we can get, so we've started work on new projects that will increase our odds for whenever they show up, but we know from what happened with your dad that this is not going to be easy. We are going to need everything we can muster, and that means we've extended offers to a few of the criminals in our prison as well, in exchange for paying off some of the debt they owe to society, they're going to work with us when the inevitable comes. We thought you should know that one of the individuals who accepted is Sinclair. I know you have history with him, but I hope you can place saving the world first, before your personal grievances.... etc etc etc...

David Bodor

I somewhat give Mark a pass, only because he's still on edge from what just happened. On the other hand, it's still an order even if Mark didn't mean it that way. That moment was very likely what made Rudy decide to stay on Mark's good side by leaving the Guardians.

Juan Solo

Mark can FLY. And DID to leave. He wasn’t trapped there. I would put MONEY on him not getting sonic blasted if after Cecil verbally articulated that he was feeling threatened in the white room, if he burst through the ceiling and left. That’s all Cecil was asking for. They’ve replaced the roof before, and they can do it again.

Æther Paradox

Wouldn’t listening to mark when he BROKE INTO GOVERNMENT PROPERTY just be succumbing to Authoritarianism. That isn’t global peace. That’s what Omni-Man wanted. A subservient earth, without the power to contest.

Æther Paradox

I like that we are on the opposite side of the Cecil argument. It makes for a good watch. I feel that just bowing the knee to Invincible because of his strength regardless of logic would just allow him to become what Omni-Man wanted to be. A ruler of earth where the people can not contest, so they choose not to. That is not peace. That is authoritarianism. Invincible has to understand that with power like his (a super power of the world 👀🇺🇸) that SOMEONE or something has to have the ability to tell him no. Cecil said no to shutting down the reanimant project. Mark threatened to expose him. Not ONCE before the remote was mark prevented from simply leaving and exposing the GDF. The remote only came out when he went for Cecil directly. The same Cecil who COILD have sent all his soldiers at him from the beginning. He was letting him blow off super steam. These soldiers are also at least presented as US military that volunteered their body after death. In that way Mark is killing soldiers devoted to protecting their country. If you disagree then you are just Cecil, viewing them as objects. If Mark Truly wanted to bring justice and peace he would have exposed him and let the world decide their stance. But he didn’t. He demanded that Cecil see his way. And became violent\within range that Cecil would not have been able to pull the switch before super speed got him (I’m not even sure THAT limited of a space was enough) causing the soldiers to restrain him. Not punch, not bite, restrain him. Mark THEN decides to kill them. After that he needs to be detained, by whatever means necessary. IMO Cecil was being nice. After the first swing I would have activated the hoard.

Æther Paradox

I mostly agree except for the last bit. Mark threw the first punch, the Reanimen were only trying to keep him away from Cecil.

Juan Solo

How was Cecil going to explain himself when Mark wasn't willing to listen? The Reanimen were only trying to keep him away from Cecil before Mark threw the first punch.

Juan Solo

I honestly don't believe that Cecil telling Mark from the beginning would've solved anything, he'd still want them arrested (only there wouldn't be any countermeasures to stop him). Darkwing and the Reanimen saved his life, and that still wasn't enough to convince Mark of the potential good they can accomplish.

Juan Solo

I think I disagree about Cecil being the first the threaten. Mark continuing to follow him through the facility after repeatedly being asked to leave is threatening. If someone was in my house and I asked them to leave and they continued to shout at me and follow me around I would definitely feel threatened. The Reani-men threw the first physical punch, but Mark refusing to leave was a physical threat

Cosmic Youth

i don't get the animation complaints. Plus when they took their time with season 2 people complained about that too. They can't win. I'm just enjoying the story and characters and voice acting personally.

blitzø

That's mighty big of you. 🫡

H-Bomb 24

I’m on Cecil’s side almost all the way. Mark is a Problem that he is aiming at bigger problems, but in turn he isn’t putting out the wildfire. In actuality he is amplifying it and just hoping the winds never change. It would be foolish to not take precautions for something as fickle as the winds.

Æther Paradox

But if Mark did decide to do anything physical, he could kill Cecil faster than he can blink, there's no time to react

Cosmic Youth

Yea a lot of people me included get to heated

Braden Jackson

I get that your main issue with Cecil was that he was too quick to use the countermeasures against Mark, but what other choice did Cecil have? Cecil gave Mark plenty of chances to leave, only entering the White Room when Mark made it clear that he wasn't leaving until his demands were met. While I don't think Mark would've hurt Cecil, he definitely would've gone after Sinclair and Darkwing himself, which Cecil couldn't allow to happen. If Mark had taken the time to cool down, and figured out how to confront Cecil with the Guardians (which the Immortal suggested), the situation wouldn't have snowballed the way it did. Mark still would've quit, since there's no way he nor Cecil would've budged on their beliefs, but at least the Guardians wouldn't have been divided.

Juan Solo

So... I'm with you that the Implant shouldn't have been used, and that the situation escalating was at least half Cecil's fault... but Mark had literally just threatened him and was flying at HIM when the implant was activated- so while if Cecil had a cooler head it wouldn't have happened it's not like it was his opening move either

Fox Trot

I and other members of Team Cecil got too heated in this comment section, I was a pain in the butt and I apologize for that- I just am REALLY enjoying this season and your opinions struck me as reductive- I was unfair and I'm sorry. Having said that while I apologize for my tone I still fully believe that this is a situation with no clear antagonist and that dismissing the whole situation as a product of unfounded paranoia isn't seeing the full picture. Cecil is in no way a perfect man... but he also didn't act this way for no reason, and I'm hopeful that you'll start to see that a little more as the season continues- but even if you don't... it's a show so who REALLY cares right? I've also watched all of the currently available episodes AND read portions of the comics which is another unfair piece of context I shouldn't have expected you to act like you had with your upload schedule... Basically... sorry for being a jerk guys!

Fox Trot

If there's one thing everyone seems to agree on about this episode, it's that no one can fault Shapesmith for sticking with the Guardians.

Juan Solo

I think he's meant to be a mirror to Mark. He's a good man who wants to do the right thing, but the trauma from past battles has made him overly emotional and narrow-minded.

Juan Solo

Marks voice actor is so amazing. I don't know how but it just feels so real, like this isn't someone acting

Erin Ryan

Perfect way to put it. Cecil’s arguments and reasonings were sound but he had the worst follow through possible

Alayna Petty

Super true!

Alayna Petty

Not to mention the trauma from Angstrom. That's definitely a big reason for Oliver being unopposed to killing threats.

Juan Solo

But now cecil didn't "prepare for the worst." He prepared for an argument with mark lol

Erin Ryan

I'm suprised by how many people are team cecil in the comment section. I actually with pretty much agreed with Kenny and Montanah. There are alot of points I do agree with in the comment section though. I think in the original argument, Cecil was mostly correct. Its neccessary to use every resource available, no matter if its right or wrong, you have in order to save the world. Just personally, I think Dark Wing 2 has potential to do good but putting him on the guardians is crazy. Also they did nothing to reform or punish Sinclare but I understand these weapons are powerful. As for the thing in Marks head, it is incredibly wrong but understandable. BUT!! Cecil never never never should have used it unless Mark actually crossed the line and hurt an innocent person, or even if Mark tried to actually hurt Cecil (Mark was not attacking Cecil when he used it). Im mostly mad about this because IF Mark somehow turned evil there is no stopping him now because he showed his cards too soon. He let fear take control and shoulnt have attacked Mark at all tbh. Mark is stubborn and strong, but I dont every see him every hurting Cecil without being attacked there.

Erin Ryan

Omg I wish they included this

Erin Ryan

Alayna Petty

If I was a guardian though and saw only what they did, I too would 1000% be on Marks side. I do think Cecil went to far regardless in the guardians base

Alayna Petty

I think Cecil remembered how he reacted to the same situation Mark is in now, and realizes it will take a lot more than just a talk to convince Mark of his side. The problem is, he can’t just chuck mark in a prison to reform him, and after what Omni man did (and of course Mark being a moody teenager😅) it feels reasonable to take precautions to protect yourself. Maybe I’m just a baby but Marks body language the entire time was threatening to me, and him saying “he’s not leaving until it’s resolved” is problematic. I also agree any non consensual surgery is fucked up, but this is a precaution to be able to have a fighting chance of Mark goes rogue. This is something Batman does to all the other Justice League members as well.

Alayna Petty

I go back and forth between agreeing with Mark and Cecil but I think Cecil wins this argument for me

Alayna Petty

To clarify, not threat as in "promise of violence to coerce cooperation" but threat as in "a potential danger." And yes, considering the last person Mark lost his temper against ended up a stain on the ground I think "angry Mark yelling and getting angrier by the second" can and should be acknowledged as a threat. With great power comes great responsibilities and yes, one of the responsibilities that comes with Mark's is keeping his anger in check so as not to terrify the very normal people he interacts with and know he could tear them apart like wet tissue paper.

Ferret

@David Bodor He didn’t threaten violence he threatened annoyance. Literally all he said was I’m not gonna leave

Mortis

Mark wasn’t throwing his weight around he was making a moral argument. The argument any good person should make at first even if they eventually come around to Cecil’s view. The fact is mark didn’t threaten anyone with violence and he only responded with violence after Cecil enacted violence first (surrounding him with the reanimen and having one grab him is violence)

Mortis

Atomic Bonds - Since in the comics it was explained that Viltrumite Powers came from 'Smart Atoms' and Eve is obviously 'Atom Eve'

Fox Trot

Being powerful doesn’t automatically make your emotions threats. Thinking like that leads to making enemies not saving people

Mortis

Bit of an extreme take, but I also don't disagree with it.

H-Bomb 24

Mark is a 19 y/o kid who got a little argumentative… Cecil wasn’t understand at all considering that he was faced with the same situation and given 3 years to understand it… also when Cecil was faced with this scenario he shot/killed the “changed” people

MrCaesar

They fought the same 8 year old in season 2 when he was attacking a city, he can take it.

KrakenKing

Oh yeah, Mark is 100% just dragging his own personal experiences into this. Like, I honestly cannot believe Mark would actually be against rehabilitative justice if he thought clearly about it for even 2 seconds. He's just blinded a little because it's personal. It's easier to say everyone deserves a second chance when it's not the guy that wronged you specifically that you have to give a second chance to.

David Bodor

Nah team Cecil all the way. Mark is being bratty, naive, and downright stupid.

KrakenKing

He’s one of my favorite characters in the show, he doesn’t take Mark’s bs

KrakenKing

Markantha sounds like you're trying to say Mark Anthony lol SaMarktha? With k?

David Bodor

What about Samartha? Markantha?

H-Bomb 24

I can’t wait for him to play Plastic Man

KrakenKing

If you actually write that essay I'd love to read it, I'll probably disagree with a lot of it... but it would be nice to see your full opinions since that's what I subscribed to this Patreon for :)

Fox Trot

I think Invincibeve is as good as ship names go, tbh. 😅

H-Bomb 24

While I appreciated that input, I feel like we got off topic. Mark was 100% out if his right barging into Cecil's office the way he did and making demands when Mark's still so green at this. Also, the only reason Mark's so heated about Sinclair and Darkwing is because of his own personal experiences with them. He's basing his actions on emotion, and THAT is something you can't do in the predicament they're in.

H-Bomb 24

I've thought about it for a good 10 minutes and I couldn't think of a ship name lol I even tried Samantha instead of Eve, but nothing works.

David Bodor

Honest Abe definitely lost his touch

Braden Jackson

For final thoughts I believe that mark was justified in being mad but was doing so kinda like a teen lashing out and Cecil while rightfully being scared acted like a animal backed into a corner

Braden Jackson

True

H-Bomb 24

I get what you're saying, though using Endeavor as a reference feels odd. Cause as horrible as he was early in the series, his saving grace (if you can call it that) was how good and competent he was at hero work. Immortal has NONE of that, so I'm left puzzled why he's even here.

H-Bomb 24

I am more on Cecil’s side but I do think it would have been smart if Cecil showed mark that Sinclair wasn’t just living life and doing what he loves both sides handled the situation terrible Cecil took marks threats and actions to the absolute extremes and mark was being hot headed and not realizing that with his power things he says can easily be seen as threats when they aren’t intended to be I do believe that the best way to prevent this was in instead of Cecil leading mark to the white room that he teleported both of them to his house to have the discussion with Debbie who would take marks side but would go about it the other way and mark would be less mad since he’s with his mom and away from the pentagon and Cecil could be less scared that mark would do something drastic infront of his family this episode was just both of them constantly reacting more and more aggressively to each others actions

Braden Jackson

I can't see Mark hurting Cecil before the void room, but I can absolutely see Mark tearing apart half the Pentagon looking for Sinclair if Cecil didn't do anything. Cecil though doesn't have viewer privilege so I fully believe that he'd be worried for his own safety.

David Bodor

@Braden Yes! Absolutely agree. He was worried about what he'd tell the Guardians, but by going there he made things a million times worse for himself. He could have just let Mark tell them whatever and then tell his side of the story once Mark is gone.

David Bodor

As much their relationship is F'd, it's not like Mark is NOT going to help when the viltrumites come to conquer Earth.

David Bodor

I'd say mark started that fight by the threat and the desk. If any superhuman weapon does that, it's right to be extremely guarded. Like that's the equivalent of throwing a punch in my eyes. Mark made it clear that he was a *threat* even so, it could've been handled better by Cecil, but he was genuinely afraid

💥Katsuki BakuGOAT💥(Kacchan)

Cecil was almost fully in the right IMO until he followed mark and tried to drag him back to the pentagon it seem like they both kept getting more and more aggressive as the fight went on

Braden Jackson

I would take someone who operates on logic more than one who operates on emotion. That's pretty much how Cecil and Mark are right now.

H-Bomb 24

I’m agree with both sides but no way in hell were they being dishonest

Braden Jackson

What's Mark and Eve's ship name? Maeve? Erk? Or is it something with their hero names, like Atomvincible? Invicibeve?

H-Bomb 24

Gotta say, this episode is the first time I haven't found Shapesmith annoying. Putting the Ben Schwartz performance aside (no offense to the guy, I've just found him annoying in everything I've seen him in), he is just a guy on a different world who can't go home. Makes sense he wouldn't be picky over who gives him a roof over his head.

H-Bomb 24

And that's the problem. You'll find my comment on the subject down below, but people should NOT side with the main character just cause they're the main character. Not when the series itself gives reasons to disagree with them.

H-Bomb 24

I agree that Cecil has failsafes for all hero’s but I don’t think he has implants in them because he did that with mark since no one is a threat to him by themselves and as crapy as immortal is he’s one of the strongest hero’s and he is on Cecil’s side so implanting hero’s like Rae and monster girl aren’t needed like if mark goes rouge

Braden Jackson

That's going a bit far mate. Mark is the protagonist, people are pre-disposed to take his side, it's very normal.

David Bodor

Him using it when he did. If you look at our questions later, I have no issues having countermeasures to mark. It’s more the timing of when he used them was TERRIBLE. It was like showing the antihero you’ve been conning into a hero the “destroy antihero ray” then proceeding to hit him with the non lethal version. Now he knows about the weapon, it won’t work again, he doesn’t trust who used it on him, and he’s PISSED. Just a total loss by Cecil tactically

Letts React

How the F did Cecil attack first? He literally retreated into a panic room and told Mark to stand down. Mark kept going closer to him, a reaniman held his hand so he doesn't approach furhter, then Mark destroyed it with a punch. He literally threw the first punch!

David Bodor

Nah. Not at all. Mark was upset but Cecil wasn’t explaining anything to him. Basically said “because I said so.” Even being upset, Mark didn’t do anything. Cecil attacked first. After that Mark completely defends himself, tries to leave the situation but Cecil follows him and continues to attack him. Cecil is wrong because of his actions not his ideology of people can change.

Gdawg88

True, Cecil definitely showed his hand too early. Though I'm confused as to what the general problem is: Cecil having the sonic device in Mark's head to begin with, or him using it when he did?

H-Bomb 24

I understand getting wary, but handling it the way Cecil did was objectively bad tactically. Like how often does Cecil communicate with beings WAY stronger than him? He should know this is a terrible approach.

Letts React

Look, no one's saying that either Mark or Cecil are completely in the right or wrong. Both handled this situation poorly. But the idea that Mark didn't threaten Cecil just confuses me. Mark, a 19-year-old rookie superhero, barged into the Pentagon and "demanded" Cecil meet his demands. Him not throwing punches rings hollow when Mark is as strong as he is and is getting agitated. I completely agree that Cecil would get wary around Mark regardless of what he's doing.

H-Bomb 24

Wow that’s quite the leap lol, intellectual dishonestly at its HIGHEST LEVEL for an opinion? That I can easily support? Pretty wild to say. I get you don’t agree with us but you don’t need to get rude with it

Letts React

Failing to acknowledge that Mark started the threat train is intellectual dishonesty at the highest level, sorry to say

Fox Trot

You missed a post credit scene. I’d recommend watching it. Maybe for next reaction

Forrest Carvalho

You'll get it later (to oversimplify, Immortal is there to represent humanity's state in general)

Shana

Not true, I get ur points but this isn’t main character bias. Like I get mark is a constant massive threat, but starting an actual fight is a bad call by Cecil and I’ll stand by that. Anything else would have been better (under my assumption/opinion that mark at his worst in this situation was going to maybe break a room, and def was not gonna kill Cecil. Even after the entire fight, he still doesn’t kill Cecil. Chokes him yes, but that’s after he was beaten senselessly. At the end of the day, Cecil handled this poorly I’m sorry. Also I think it’s ok to harass and follow someone if they are directors doing extremely unethical things without telling you when they promised to be honest and you are partners and he LITERALLY SURVEILS YOU AT ALL TIMES

Letts React

I think the brown goo from the Reanimen is because Sinclair is using corpses now instead of living people.

H-Bomb 24

Cecil didn't want to kill Mark that's the whole point Mark was the antagonist here. If Cecil TRULY wanted to kill Mark he could've kept the sound on nonstop and beat him to death. Mark was the combative one here 100%. But I guess if someone breaks into your office with the equivalent of a gun in their hands making threats and demands they are fine based on your judgement. Mark chose to keep following Cecil after being asked multiple times to go. Guess it's fine to harass people too and follow them. He never trapped Mark in the white room the door was open and he again asked Mark to leave him alone and leave the room Cecil felt threatened and ran to the white room while trying to stay calm and keep Mark calm. You are seeing Mark as a good force when if any other character did the same to Mark or his family yall would flip.

PKKite

Couldn’t have said it better myself, Sinclair has been putting in work and Cecil has put the government resources to great use. Sure mark is a lose but without robot and the guardians to run interference Cecil would have won that interaction. Mark can have a point, but right now hes being super childish and just being needlessly aggressive, Cecil was open to talk

Big Fuze

Someone has to take Cecil's side in the Guardians. I think he's meant to be a sort-of antagonist, but still on the good guy side, kinda like Endeavor in MHA's early seasons.

David Bodor

Well, H-Bomb, to be fair here, Mark did lose that fight. If not for the Guardians, Mark would be out cold. The implant and like 4 reanimen was all it took at the end there. Cecil didn't know that it would work though so he was probably terrified, and he knew the implant would be a single use weapon, so he probably wanted to avoid having to use that.

David Bodor

Kenny I like your point about the animation. A think a lot of the time people expect top tier animation constantly, which is not reasonable. We saw what happens when animators are pushed to their breaking point after JJK season 2. However, I think it’s also worth mentioning that people also typically confuse animation and art style. The animation of Invincible is incredible, but the art style can sometimes be simplistic. There aren’t as many highlights or complex shadings that give the image depth. I also think the art style is intentional, people just compare it to the comic too much. (I’m not an animator or professional artist, so I may not be valid here. This is just what I’ve heard others discuss. If there are any animators or artists here I’d love to hear your perspective)

Alseriph

Cecil cannot afford to take orders from Mark though. That makes a TERRIBLE precedent that Mark can just shout and throw a tantrum and get his way. Also - Is he his biggest asset? Because that sound weapon and a handful reanimen took Mark out entirely, without the Guardians stepping in to help Mark, Mark would've been out cold.

David Bodor

Cecil doesn't know that, and even with the knowledge of a viewer, sure Mark wouldn't kill Cecil, but I give it a 50/50 that Mark goes on a rampage through the labs trying to find Sinclair if Cecil doesn't do anything. + Mark did throw the first punch too. The reanimen did not attack Mark until Mark destroy one.

David Bodor

Mark could kill Cecil faster than he could think about blinking. The problem is that Mark doesn't understand or care about how he makes other, non-superpowered people feel being around him, and then criticizes when they take measures based on self-preservation. In short, Mark has an ALARMING lack of self-awareness.

H-Bomb 24

No you continue to argue or at least admit that Mark is right in this point with plans to convince him later and lose Sinclair and darkwing as assets, rather than YOUR BIGGEST ASSET (mark), you don’t bring it to a battle point where you both lose a ton of the re-animen, half of the guardians of the globe, and MARK. Like I get that Cecil had a right to feel afraid of mark and threatened by his anger, but tactically this was a TERRIBLE set of moves from him. He completely lost this interaction

Letts React

Exactly. Mark's out here causing problems without a SHRED of self-awareness. He knows how strong he is, but doesn't seem to care how that makes non-superpowered people feel around him.

H-Bomb 24

So do you really think Cecil made the right call attacking Mark here? If he was more of a strategist he would have tried WAY harder to not bring it to a battle point, considering he knows for a fact they have NOTHING to actually stop Mark

Letts React

Mark probably wasn’t going to physically hurt Cecil but he was going to do the next worst thing for Cecil, and that’s stopping the whole departments operations, mark wasnt listing to Cecil when he told him to leave and then clearly states he won’t leave the building until Cecil does what he says. Cecil has a job to do and mark was threating to stop all of it

Big Fuze

Seriously, what was even the point of bringing the Immortal back, both in season one, when the Maulers brought him back to life, and this season, when he and Kate came out of hiding because . . . reasons? This character contributes NOTHING positive to the series. Rex pretty much said what he is word for word.

H-Bomb 24

You literally made mark being upset and voicing that into 3 different infractions, when in reality he was in an argument. I personally think the moment this interaction took a turn was when Cecil went into the void room and essentially trapped mark under a ton of armed people and then made mark out to be threatening him. Mark was def really hot headed and mad, but if you really think he was going to physically hurt Cecil prior to him going into the void room, I feel you are misunderstanding mark

Letts React

I think that your focus on the trope may be distracting you from the actual intended purpose of that scene. The whole first part of this episode is showing that Cecil used to be exactly like Mark and share that same viewpoint of "No working with criminals. Not ever". It's up to you as the viewer to decide if Cecil is right to have abandoned his ideals in his pursuit of the protection of the planet, or if he is becoming the very thing that he is fighting against.

Kit Pearson

So am I crazy for not liking the trope of “this character has a scar so we need a flashback showing how they got that scar.” Like I know it’s cool and in many cases necessary. However, at the start of this episode when I noticed Cecil didn’t have the iconic facial scar, the first thing I thought was “I bet we see him get the scar in this scene.” It sort of just prompts me to assume he’s going to be injured. Idk is there a better way to do this? Anyone have any thoughts on this topic?

Alseriph

Nah he didn’t have to fully attack mark. I don’t think mark was gonna physically do anything until Cecil proverbially pulled out his gun

Letts React

1:00:00 - Kenny you think destroying a desk like a kid throwing a tantrum would be a worse threat than Mark telling Cecil he's not leaving until Cecil accepts his demands? Or Mark following Cecil out of the room, into the hallway and then into another room after repeatedly being told that he should leave? Cecil definitely fumbled the Guardians, but he didn't fumble Mark, Mark did that by himself.

David Bodor

56:17 - I think the flashback explains it pretty clearly - Leave him alone, if he wants to save the world let him, but start a file and develop countermeasures. He's going to do the exact same with Mark as he did with Omni-man. Leave him be but prepare for the worst.

David Bodor

Because he knew he wasn't going home he was going to the guardians HQ yo convince them Cecil was mad

PKKite

Cecil also told Mark… “be reasonable, go home” and then shocks him out of the air when he leaves

MrCaesar

Yeah but I feel as though mark is reasonably angry… he also didn’t do anything wrong, he works at the pentagon under Cecil so to say he broke in is an exaggeration I feel. I think Cecil should be more understanding considering he’s been through a very similar situation, especially considering Mark is a 19 y/o kid who can lose his temper… I also do think that though mark is so strong he’s about died for earth so many times I think it’s unfair to Mark to not trust him.

MrCaesar

The most hypocritical part about Cecil's side is that he was given 3 years to change his mind and adjust to his point of view and he gives Mark seconds. "You have one view point and you refuse to see any other one!" Right after we saw him staunchly say "I don't work with criminals, ever." Is very significant. The problem is that Mark is so powerful that Cecil can't afford to give him that time to adjustment even though Cecil himself technically went further than Mark i.e. killing Forcefist and Knuckle Buster vs Mark destroying some Reanimen. The problem is that Mark is 19 years old so he doesn't have the restraint to understand the intimidation that just comes from his presence and Cecil cant risk confronting a Viltrumite head on because last time he did so he was a fraction of a second from getting murdered when Nolan grabbed his tie when Cecil teleported away. Cecil is so used to being in charge that he pushes too hard to reassert that dominance. Neither side is 100% right or wrong. Mark is working from a position of idealism and anger and Cecil is responding to fear.

Phantom Egg

The thing is that Mark isn't physically aggressive against Cecil, but he *is* hostile, he's stubborn and belligerent, and Cecil is very aware that at any point if Mark decides to hurt him, there's nothing he can do about it. The very presence of an angry viltrumite *is* a threat, inherently. And it's not like this is a discussion between people on the same side with differing viewpoints either, Mark has made it very clear with his words and actions that he sees Cecil as an enemy right now, and is putting all of the onus on *Cecil* to prove that he isn't. Where I think Cecil screwed up is when the Guardians got involved. At that point, his poor leadership skills show. Treating the Guardians as underlings who need to shut up and stay out of it when, from their perspective, he's attacking their friend out of nowhere, was the *wrong* call. He should have shut the sonic device off, trusting the Guardians to keep Mark from killing him (at least long enough to turn it back on if needed), and said okay, let's all calm down, stop threatening each other, and have an adult conversation instead of a childish temper tantrum.

Ferret

Mark literally broke into the Pentagon, slammed Cecil's desk, told him he is not going to leave until his demands were met and then kept following Cecil, that is very much a threat. It's an implied one, but a threat is still a threat.

David Bodor

You can if your the strongest man on the planet 💪

blue_haruki

I wouldn't even call that the sole reason, as Rex was on his way to becoming a better person even before that. Remember the conversation he had with Eve when she was feeling down about her hero work?

H-Bomb 24

It IS Cecil's job to protect the planet from threats, that could include Mark if Mark is busting into the Pentagon issuing demands and refuses to leave when told to. That's not manipulation that's just facts. Mark could have literally just quit if he had any problems with Cecil using Sinclair, but he has 0 right to make demands of Cecil. You can't just break into the Pentagon and yell demands and threaten and follow Cecil like that...

David Bodor

26:54 - This is the moment I find to be the absolute worst from Mark. Threatening Cecil is one thing, but then the way he orders Rudy around, like bro, he is not your servant, ask nicely ffs, you have 0 reason to snap at him, no matter how pissed off you are you can't just yell at the person who just saved you! He does not sound like he usually does there, ordering people around is not what you want Mark to be doing.

David Bodor

Oh I'm ready thank you

blue_haruki

Just needed a bullet assisted lobotomy

Kristopher Sy

I fear that the multitude of people watching this show side with Mark simply because he's the main character. I doubt that's not the case and hope it's not, but just because someone's the protagonist doesn't mean everything they say is do is meant to be agreed with, understandable or not.

H-Bomb 24

seriously though, enjoy episode 4- there's a lot of awesome stuff there

Fox Trot

Your just wrong he broke into the pentagon and went into cecils room slamming his desk and yelling demands. He refused to talk it out or leave and proceeded to follow Cecil getting angrier. How is that not a threat? How is that not wrong? If someone you knew bust open your door and started yelling demanding X while waving a gun (the power dynamic of mark vs Cecil is way on Mark's side in that situation) are they in the right? Even if you tried to diffuse the situation or ask them to leave nicely and yall could talk later? Are you in the wrong doing that? You have a obvious bias for Mark since he's the MC but from episode 1 to the start of 2 all he did was prove Cecil right.

PKKite

And that my friend we can both agree on mark indeed doesn't believe that anyone can change for the better and be a good person

blue_haruki

Cecil definitely didn't force Mark to follow him into the void he told him to go home. If my gf told me to leave her alone I wouldn't keep advancing on her to do what I want.

Bob Loblaw

No he lost those because Mark doesn't believe rehabilitation is a thing and wanted to fight about it

Fox Trot

And that's why he lost half the guardians and the strongest man on the planet

blue_haruki

yeah sorry friendo you're not going to convince me that Manipulation is the real problem here when compared to everything that Cecil is manipulating people to prevent Cecil's general modus operandi is just called... being smart- and being relevant as a normal human

Fox Trot

"Cecils antagonizing here" what a terrible take. Mark broke into the pentagon, ran up to Cecil and started yelling at him and slamming his desk, Cecil then tried to talk to him about the sitation and Mark yelled more and demanded his way, Cecil then asked Mark to leave and they would talk later (when Mark was calmer), Mark proceeds to point yell and follow Cecil demanding his will be done as he will not leave, Cecil asks him to leave more times then proceeds to say he feels threatened and asks Mark to leave, Mark proceeds to approach Cecil closer again. NOW IS THE FIRST TIME Cecil has made any actions himself that could even be seen as threatening by having one of ghe men hold his arm and block his path to Cecil that Mark was trying to reach.

PKKite

Yeah, Mark threatens Cecil that he's not going to leave until his demands are met, wtf is Cecil supposed to do there? Just accept Mark's in charge now and he can order him around? Hell no. He went into the panic room, met Mark's threats and told him to stand down.

David Bodor

Mark has done a lot for the world but so did Omni man, 20 years worth of stuff and we seen how that played out. Cecil cannot afford to give major concession with these super powerful people.

Big Fuze

In control of protecting the planet not in control of people like there dogs or objects that's called manipulation

blue_haruki

Nah, come on, Mark threw the first punch and the first threat. He said he won't leave until Cecil accepts his demands, and then willingly followed Cecil into the white room and even there Cecil just told him to stand down, while Mark kept stepping closer and the moment one of the soldiers grabbed his arm to keep him back, he threw the first punch and destroyed a ton of soldiers for no reason. Cecil objectively did not start the fight, Mark did. He threatened first AND he punched first.

David Bodor

It sucks to say but when marks angry his very presence is a threat, so when he storms into Cecil’s office, raising his voice, and slamming his hands on Cecil’s desk, it’s a threat. Mark might not mean it to be, but it is. Like if I was drunkenly waving a gun around, I don’t want to hurt anyone but I might. It’s like someone pissed having a nuke in their back that they can set off anytime and they wouldn’t be hurt in the slightest. Cecil wasn’t automatically sitting in the white room, he had warning and was literally sitting at his desk when the white room was 2 turns away. Cecil was in a neutral position and mark came in angry and it was clear that anger wasn’t going away so Cecil moved to safety

Big Fuze

But it's literally Cecil's job to be in control, he is responsible for the safety of the entire planet.

David Bodor

I have been too- it's easily my favorite so far

Fox Trot

Yeah from a strategic perspective he could have just told Mark about using the prisoners from the beginning and Mark probably wouldn't have flipped out as much as he did finding out later. That said, the problem is, Cecil doesn't have all the information that us viewers do, so from his perspective, this is a wildly unstable teenager with the powers of a weapon of mass destruction that just busted into the Pentagon demanding things. He did try to ask Mark to stand down and Mark threw the first punch so at that point there's not much he can do.

David Bodor

But yeah whether you're Team Mark or Team Cecil I think we can all agree that this is a AMAZING episode

Fox Trot

I do feel like if they both weren't stupid Mark would have been satisfied knowing Sinclair wasn't allowed to run around and do whatever he wanted... sadly tensions got high and Cecil is rightfully paranoid about Viltrumites but failed to exclude Mark from that category even after all he's done for the world

Fox Trot

I’m on Cecil’s side tbh, Cecil is putting up actual arguments for why we should use resources we have and mark is just saying “ nuh uh” A single viltrimite is a world ending threat for earth even with mark, they do not have the luxury of taking the moral high ground. It’s the hierarchy of needs, right now they need safety and shelter and cannot afford to worry about the higher stuff. It’s like not building a shelter from a tree that fell in someone during a basketball sized hail. So Cecil’s right, they either need to use everything they can to live or the hero’s and mainly mark need to be strong enough to face the brunt of viltrum without mass casualties to earth. That might sound like too much to ask but that’s the price of the high road and I don’t think mark is ready to except that, and when the viltrimites start landing I bet mark would wish that a few reanimate could take the heat off as he tried to protect his mom. Also have dark wing pull a few into the shadow verse when they are attacking Oliver.

Big Fuze

I still think they were both right and having a conversation until Cecil got up and walked away with the intentions of leading Mark to the white room

blue_haruki

this is probably the thing I agree with you most about Kenny/Montanna (who ever's running the comments right now :) ) Cecil's viewpoint makes a ton of sense to me but I won't argue that his actions were practical, especially since Mark is probably their best chance in the war

Fox Trot

I mean... I'm sorry you're just not correct- that scene in the office is a lot more of a threat then seems to register. There's not one party who's 100% in the right and I honestly believe Cecil jumped the gun out of lingering trauma from Omni-Man but don't woobiefy Mark, he's not a innocent agency-less baby that this just happened to

Fox Trot

Yes mark shouldnt have busted in and demanded things if he wanted to reason with Cecil he should've called and talked but he was too mad to start calm

blue_haruki

Cecil for sure didn't deserve to get hurt or even killed but he did need a threat to show him that he's not in control of everything or anyone

blue_haruki

This show makes it SO easy to root for Rex. Crazy how he is unironically one of the best characters, now.

H-Bomb 24

I'd love to be able to say that Mark didn't and that Cecil was overreacting but Mark broke into Cecil's office and demanded that he do something 'or else' if they were both normal humans that would just be a emotional... well kid basically who needed a calm conversation to straighten him out but Mark's a Viltrumite, imagine someone you've seen lift a mountain come to you and say your content's disgusting because it's infringing copyright (not meant by me just a example) and then starts physically posturing, would you be threatened by that?

Fox Trot

So, since the dub for the next episode of Solo Leveling has been delayed, someone suggested that y'all release episode 14 of Friere in that slot on Wednesday. I agree with this, and I wouldn't call it a double drop, since it's in a preexisting slot.

H-Bomb 24

I understand Cecil’s viewpoint, but strategically attacking mark in any way is pretty ill advised, losing your biggest weapon and opening yourself up for bigger retribution.

Letts React

Honestly the transmitter is the shadiest thing Cecil did and even that I completely understand why he'd do it, even if I don't agree with him implanting it inside Mark without his knowledge, I can see why he'd want to after the crap Omni-man pulled.

David Bodor

Mark def isn’t entirely blameless, but Mark didn’t destroy or threaten until Cecil took him into a literal void and surrounded him by beings that he just watched destroy a supervillain and have his dad trouble. To say Cecil didn’t do anything till mark advanced is a little ludicrous

Letts React

He doesn't but that also doesn't mean Cecil should've considered him a threat, me personally I would've trusted mark simply cause his father beat him silly across the planet and that's more than enough proof to me that he wants what's best for earth

blue_haruki

Yea but he’s still kicking the crap out of an 8 year old lol that’s morally wrong

Letts React

2:00 - To be fair Mark didn't actually really hurt the giant kid and I don't think Cecil wanted him to actually hurt the kid either. It's just sparring. It's basically like sending your kid to karate practice, except the kid is a gigantic cyclops that can pulverize a skyscraper with a single hit.

David Bodor

I agree with you, I'm more on Cecil's side than Mark's... because there's a massive war coming and Dark Wing and Sinclair are both going to be incredibly necessary- but at the same time I acknowledge that Mark has a point to a extent, or at least that Cecil shouldn't have done a lot of the things he did to Mark. Mark also doesn't seem to realize that he's threatening people when he does, which doesn't make anyone's concerns any less valid

Fox Trot

How did mark threaten Cecil before entering the room?

Letts React

I feel like Mark does not understand just how freaking terrifying he really is.

David Bodor

No spoilers coming from me, and saying a mean thing doesn't mean you try to seriously hurt a squishy human- that's like... the second law of heroism

Fox Trot

I've been on team Cecil this entire episode to be honest. I am curious how they will handle things in the future. I am a big proponent of rehabilitative justice rather than retributive, so Mark's arguments kinda ringed hollow to me. Especially so soon after a major event that demonstrated just how much good prisoners working to pay off their mistakes can be, in the form of the California wildfires, where thousands of prisoners put their lives on the line to save others for basically no pay or reward, doing some of the hardest work you could find. Add onto that that Mark really does not understand just how scary he is, and well...he really needs to mature a bit more to understand where Cecil is coming from.

David Bodor

Just wanted to talk is a weird read on a situation where Mark walked in and tried to throw his weight around to make a entire organization change its policies to fit him. Mark is not innocent, both were at fault and both were posturing, the people who can't agree that both sides are wrong here are the ones who aren't properly understanding the medium

Fox Trot

Also I'm about to watch episode 4 no spoilers please

blue_haruki

He didn't smash anything until Cecil told him he was a threat and then pulled out the reanimen just like Kenny said "at what point did he smash stuff up" like I said they were both right until Cecil led him to a room

blue_haruki

Also immortal is biast and hates invincible so he obviously sided with Cecil and your right about Kate she's bullshitting she didn't have a close call or anything she was perfectly safe the entire time her clones were fighting

blue_haruki

really? because Cecil didn't make any moves to actually hurt Mark until Mark started smashing stuff, I don't think that's a trap I think that's just a place where they can have a hard conversation without Mark having a 'I thought you were stronger' moment. Cecil did take it too far with the sonic device though, if you've seen episode 4 I think that should have been the plan from the start- because the important balancing act with someone as emotional as Mark is coming up with Backup plans that you can justify as being for the actual invasion rather than specifically for him

Fox Trot

I find it a hard sell to say Mark was completely blameless in that conversation, for starters the Reanimen didn't attack him first, the Reanimen grabbed his arm when he started advancing on Cecil which is 100% a threatening gesture I'm sorry.

Fox Trot

The cyclops thing was so he had someone to play with that he wouldn’t kill

GreatRiverofKings

Mark did threaten Cecil before entering the room

Braden Jackson

They were both right until Cecil took it too far and yes mark should've had a more open mind and realized that people can change and be better people but Cecil could've communicated that instead of leading him to a trap and trying to force his ideals onto mark

blue_haruki

People have been argueing about both view points in my opinion Cecil was right but took it way too far when he led Mark to that room when Mark just wanted to talk so Cecil deserved to lose half the gaurdians and the fight and if he put a weapon in marks head he could've easily done the same to monster girl or immortal or any other hero around the planet

blue_haruki

Ive been so excited for yall to watch this episode

KingBull