Heretics of Dune Club Session VI: Questions and Observations

Wooo another Dune book down - wow! Thanks for the worm-ride of a lifetime Danika :) So at the start of this book I had my doubts of being surprised or drawn in but it happened again! This book started slow but familiar with Rakis, another Duncan, the Bene Gesserit and a mysterious character who has mystery links to the worms. But THEN... I really enjoyed how it went into unfamiliar places! The Tleilaxu, Tar and Dar, Teg, the Honoure Matres and even the city of Ysai... We explored new places and new ideas and I loved it! What do you find special about this book? What was "the unexpected" that was unique for you in this book in particular? P.S. I love that "the unexpected" is something that will resonate with me from this book forever - it's very similar to "embrace the chaos" ;) xxoo

Cazzamatazz

What other works of fiction resonate with you like Dune has?

If the original Dune was a warning against following charismatic leaders, what themes and message is Frank giving us in Heretics? Or is he just having creative fun with his world?

p.614 We'll get back to soostones in the next book. p.617 Circumlocutions. Tyekanik previously used that word with Wensicia, anyone else spot that? (Used twice more after this, both in Chapterhouse) p.621 "That is a rather old choice."--favorite Teg line from this section. p.626 "If you say so, Mother Superior" I think, even here, Dar's purpose is a practical one to keep Taraza sharp. p.629 "They seem to be doing that." Sheeana's globular intelligence. p.664 "If you destroy most copies, time will take care of the rest." I snarked about this sentence regarding the Dune Encyclopedia and certain individuals refusal to officially reprint it, on a forum once. And then of course the potential for Big Tech to eliminate things (continuing on p. 665) both sources and search results, is a going concern. Right now.

1 A but confused by The tleilaxu master plan was hatching for 1k+ years (have Duncan enslave the HMs to destroy the BGs?) but it seemed they came under the influence of the BGs missionary protective via the Atredies Manifesto written by Dar, but that must have been recent ~100+ years or so or how old is Dar anyways? 2 Tar knew Duncan would cause the Honored Matres to blew up Arrakis but the HMs didn't know the secret the Tleiaxu planted in him regarding his sexual prowess over them until after the encounter with the HM on Gammu? Just confused how Tar knew Duncan would be bait or what the HMs knew when? 3 maybe I just lost the thread on the first two, but thanks for running the club another great dune read 😁

eneve

So we end on somewhat of a cliffhanger... Goodbye Rakis, we hardly knew ye... What to say? The sex scene between Duncan and the Honored Matre was the most uncomfortable sex scene described in literature I have read since Samwell Tarly's fat pink mast in... Feast for Crows was it? Can't help but feel similarly uncomfortable with the repeated use of "whores" as an insult to describe the honored matres. Not a very sex positive or sex worker positive expression. I mean, why aren't the Bene Gesserit worthy of the same epithet? Cuz they say it's just for "procreation"? How half-assed Catholic of them. That being said, we do get a lot more food situations at the end of this book. Herbert was both horny AND hungry or something. Still, not quite GRRM yet, I guess we'll see in Chapter House Dune. Also F in chat for Taraza... good ol' Stumpy, we hardly knew ye. Speaking of which, the Honored Matres' attack on Rakis is so sudden to an extent. It felt like they were a distant enemy for most of the book, suddenly they just take over Dune and wipe out everything on it but for those who escape with the worm. What are your thoughts? Things felt fairly slow until the last 70 pages or so. It also feels like we spent very little time on Dune, in its "restored" to desert stage, but unlike in previous books, we don't feel much about its inhabitants, whether they were the tough Fremen's of Paul's early days or the museum Fremen of the later books. Who will be left to talk about in Chapterhouse Dune but a handful of "heroes" against a bunch of mostly anonymous mooks like the 50+ people Teg just god-moded through in that buidling? Still, thanks for yet another successful Dune Book Club, I enjoyed it. I'd almost say I can't wait for the next, but it's October and I got some spooky books to read before *not* returning to Arrakis.

PJ B

I also relate to this! I remember going out into "real" woods for the first time in college. I was unprepared for the amount of crazy-looking things (especially the fungi and dead things) that I saw. That experience made me understand a little better why Herbert liked those weird animal-plants.

Stephanie Pappas

I noticed an interesting connection between Alia and Teg: they're both referred to as "the Whirlwind." Alia yells it about herself in book two when Duncan/Hayt grabs her arm, and Teg thinks it about himself when he goes wild on the people from the Scattering. Alia showed amazing speed abilities and limited prescience, similar to Teg's earlier display, when she fought that knife robot naked that one time and gave her brother a weird boner. In a strange way, Teg seems to be giving both the tragic figures of his look-a-like, Leto, and the first Whirlwind, Alia, a second wind by living his crazy-ass life.

Stephanie Pappas

Observations: I am both happy that we have covered Heretics of Dune, and pre-emptively sad in knowing that we are already halfway done with the final Dune club. This has been great, but it will be hard to match. P. 566 - Futar sighting! All the Dune novels have been leading up to this moment. P.577 - Face Dancer Tuek has molded itself into the actual Tuek, and the Fish Speaker insistance about pretence becoming real shows itself to be undeniable. The Tleilaxu should have listened to the Fish Speaker instead of killing her. P. 606 - So apparently Duncan did not have knowledge of all his iterations, but now he gains them. Also P. 606 - Duncan's recollection is the final proof of what the Axolotl tanks really are. Mother's Day must be a very awkward occasion on the Tleilaxu homeworld. P. 621 - favorite lines in this section - "You have discovered a new drug!" "No, Bashar! We have an old one." The above line also made me realize that the honored matres had taken the strategy of using sex to manipulate, a strategy that women often had to use in society where men were in charge but were often derided for, and perfected it to a degree no man ever suspected. But they also took the threat and use of violence, usually associated as a male tool, and perfected that beyond what any man had ever done (at least until Teg came along). Credit where it's due here. P.622 - Then Miles' observations reveal how trapped the Honored Matres and their associates were in the joyless world their built with their power. What does it profit to gain the whole world if you lose your soul? It says something about Teg that he can see this, fights against it, and still takes time to examine himself to make sure he is not falling into the same trap. "Will I ever think of them as muck?" P. 631 - It is revealed that Reverend mothers can transfer all their massive memories from one to another, in a process that phsically at least looks like the method face dancers use to copy memories from their victims. I wonder if one of those parites learned this from the other. End of the book. Leto II apparently finally gets to rest after millenia of manipulating humanity for its own good, partly to drive home the point that humanity musn't let itself be manipulated like that. And the BG were his final agents in tieing up the plan. I guess that is why he kept them around when he had so much reason to hate them.

I can completely relate to Lucilla on the Gammu streets. I spent my life mostly indoors but I've always loved to learn about the outdoors and the natural(real) world. Lately I've been going into the wilderness alone and it's amazing how little raw knowledge can prepare you without the experiences to back it up. Lucilla knew everything about Gammu but was still unprepared when she arrived. This is a fantastic lesson.

Alfredo Colindres