Buffy the Vampire Slayer - 5x17 “Forever” FULL REACTION

That was really cruel to Buffy... what Dawn did at the end. She did the right thing though by ripping Joyce's picture before Buffy even gets to her. Still, really cruel and painful seeing Buffy have this last minute hope and see it get crushed as she opens the door. You can see the pain in her eyes. :(

Stephen Mintac

It would have been really nice to see Cordelia, but she and Buffy never really had a deep emotional connection. It seems like Cordelia appreciates Buffy more than Buffy appreciates Cordelia, so I'm not sure Buffy would have gotten much out of her presence in this situation.

KT

A dark episode that really shows off for once the better sides of Dawn. I didn't like her on first watch, but she really grew on me and this episode especially shows her positive qualities.

Angela Colon

I just watched Arvin's reaction to Doomed, and he really enjoyed it.

UTU49

A long time ago [innocence] I made a comment about Bangel and what I thought it meant from Buffy's point of view. Here you mentioned how nice it is to see Buffy and Angel interacting because they seem so much more mature. I thought this might be as good a time as any to finish my thought on what that relationship means from Angel's pov and the relationship as a whole and the uses of melodrama in their relationship [in my opinion]. I wrote most of this earlier but I’m lazy and fell behind on reactions for a bit so I never posted it, until now: I think the level of melodrama between Angel/Buffy in s1-3 reflects back to how ever much both are projecting onto the other. The more powerful the projection [s2] the more melodrama. That’s why I think them sleeping together the first time is probably the most melodramatic moment because it’s the height of them both forgetting themselves in their projections. Right before seeing Buffy Angel was a mess, living on rats in the streets and in clear emotional anguish. As soon as he saw her you could see hope in his face and he decided to completely change his appearance and the way he presented himself to the world. Why? If he could make her see him as he wished to be, good capable even heroic, then he would be good, capable and heroic. His past could be redeemed in her loving him [that's his delusion or completely unreasonable thing to ask from a romantic relationship], this way he wouldn't have to actually address everything that had driven him to be living disheveled and homeless on the streets. It might be unclear why having more projections should lead to greater melodrama. I think when you put way more of your needs and feelings onto a relationship then it can reasonably handle, all those projections then become dependent on the relationship. If it's going well all those needs feel satisfied and all those issues feel resolved, and when it's not going well all of them feel wrecked. Thus the fluctuations of the relationship aren't just about the relationship [which can be hard enough] but possibly about all your dreams and hopes [you have no future without the relationship] and all your self-worth [you feel worthless without the relationship] and love [all your other relationships can feel small and meaningless in comparison to your romantic relationship]. This also adds to why Buffy left Sunnydale after sending Angel to hell: all her projections are lost and her life seems without hope/future, her sense of self-worth is lost and her other relationships feel less important [at least in that moment for an episode until she recalls she’s “Buffy the vampire slayer”]. In s3 Angel clearly had a lot of the existential issues he'd tried to forget impinge on his awareness [Amends] again. You could see he was being more himself [a little funnier, more sarcastic, and older] in their interactions. I think the reduction in melodrama in season 3[especially the latter half] was a reflection that Angel's projections were being renowned by him, what I mean by that is a lot of the things his perception of Buffy’s love was doing: giving his life a purpose, making him worthy of love, making him good were seen to be things he himself would have to do or deal with himself[what is his purpose?, is he capable of loving himself or at least forgiving himself?, what does it mean to be good or fight the good fight?]. On the other hand there is still some melodrama in the relationship because Angel was still Buffy's first love, and she was still projecting a lot onto him and the relationship though a lot less then s2 since the events of late s2 had made her face the difficulty of the situation a lot more. The slow stripping away of the melodrama works beautifully [for me] to reflect how each is beginning to own their own feelings, desires, needs, and issues and how very different they are. I think the most complex emotional moments between them [so far] come after their break up because now it feels more like two very strong and very different people who have strong feelings for each other, willing to go to great lengths for each other as opposed to two people forgetting themselves in each other for very different reasons. Their interactions feel more adult and more uncertain while also being emotional. Thought it sounds backwards, I think Buffy and Angel had to earn the reduction of melodrama. Usually in TV and film it works the other way around, where details build to a “earned” melodramatic moment, so I find this kind of unique and interesting. I don't really care about ships and things like that, I just find what they do with this relationship and the way they tell the story very creative and symbolic. Also this interpretation definitely has many flaws and doesn’t always work but I’ve found it a cool way to look at their relationship sometimes…

Shashank

"The Lord bless her and keep her, The Lord make his face to shine upon her and be gracious to her, The Lord lift up his countenance upon her and give her piece." A paraphrase of Numbers 6:24-26. RIP Joyce. Thank you Angel for coming to pay your respect. I feel like this was probably about as good as an episode could be following and episode like "The Body." I really like "Doomed," also. One of the highlights of season 4 for me. I find there are a lot of episodes I really like in the Buffyverse (both Angel and Buffy) which I had no idea received a generally negative response from other fans until I began watching reactors.

Steve Quast

I get what you're saying and yeah I used to think the same way when I was younger, like "Aww can't they just wish something and it not have a catch". But that's not how magic, or wishing, or life works unfortunately. And always happy to meet a fellow Fairy Tale fan, did you read the more original versions where the ending was like 'So they forced red hot iron shoes onto her feet and made her dance until she fell dead'.

Claire Eyles

Continuing the ('creepy old guy/resurrection demon person' ) Joel Grey appreciation ; here is the legend himself performing 'Willkommen' from Cabaret, with cast, live at the Tony Awards in 1967. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAGNQwmUsqI

Claire Eyles

This is easily one of my favourite episodes of the season. I *LOVE* magic episodes. Growing up, I read a lot of fairy tales and gothic short stories, such as the Monkey's Paw. It always annoyed me that the person who is trying to use magic to get what they want gets punished for it. I always want want them to succeed, even now that I understand that they are morality tales and that they wouldn't work with a happy ending. Spike and Willow are interesting characters. They are not the wisest of people. Both of them understand that helping Dawn is a bad idea, but they do it anyway, because they can't help themselves.

Moon Logic

So happy to see you back. I must admit i was worried about you after 'The Body'.

CeNedra

I do really enjoy this episode, despite me crying everytime i watch it. Buffys tearful speech at the end gets me every single time! I also loved Spike’s appearances. Kind of like when Dawn was sneaking out before, he took it upon himself to watch her back, protect her, he does the same tonight. He knows she is messing with some crazy stuff and doesnt want to leave her to do it herself. He said before how if she is gonna sneak out or do something bad, she’ll find a way whether you like it or not - she’d be safer getting up to no good with the big bad watching over her; etc. Giles listening to the same song he and joyce were chilling to in band candy is such a lovely homage, and yes, I agree that Anya’s moment was very sweet and touching. With Dawn and the magic - willow seemed more concerned about it being difficult to do, and having a high risk of going wrong. Whereas tara was about the morality and ethics - even if it was easy, you shouldnt do it regardless because it messes woth nature and life and death. Willow didnt seem to grasp it, which is a little concerning. Especially with what it led dawn too! Great reaction as always! I’m so, so hyped for the rest of s5! X

Holi117

The song Giles is listening to is 'Tales of Brave Ulysses' by Cream. :)

Claire Eyles

Yes, Joel Grey is an absolute, Oscar winning, legend of stage and screen. His performance as the emcee in Cabaret is amazing. Huge for the show to get someone of his calibre as a guest star, and definitely shows how it had developed in the conscience of the public & performers alike (even if it did take a emotional slam like The Body to get the critics on board).

Claire Eyles

You’re right: Any episode after The Body would be kind of a letdown. But this one does everything it needed to do to address the current situation of grief and begin to move the characters back forward in the big season conflict with Glory. The creepy old guy was played by Broadway legend Joel Gray—best known to moviegoers as the Master of Ceremonies in Cabaret. That he was interested in a guest spot suggests how far the show had come in the public consciousness.

Steve Maxey

I think this episode, as kinda rough as it is, is necessary after the last one, like you said at the beginning. It would be hard to just lose Joyce and then launch right into moving on. Loved Spike in this one, showing some heart beyond his feelings for Buffy.

Jayna

Good recall on the song from Band Candy! It took me a couple of rewatches to catch that!!

Yes, Giles was listening to the same song that he and Joyce listened to in Band Candy.

UTU49

Warm up your tear ducts, everybody!

UTU49

I find this one almost worse than The Body. Buffy’s speech about having to keep going just breaks me and then at the thought that Joyce might be back she runs to the door anyway.

Steven Winthrop