Buffy the Vampire Slayer - 5x10 “Into the Woods” FULL REACTION

Ahh the beauty and complexity of a Joss Whedon Show.... it divides people when it comes to what perfect or healthy “relationship” means.

Stephen Mintac

This was so well said.

Katherine Thoreson

It’s not a favorite episode, but it’s a necessary one, and I’d be at a loss to come up with ideas to improve it.

Steve Maxey

I think one of the points they are making with where the relationship has ended up is that being in love with Buffy makes Riley feel a certain way and IF she is also in love, he thinks Buffy would feel and express it the same way. That CAN happen, but not always, maybe not usually. It's very easy to think of her first in everything Riley does while Buffy has Joyce and Dawn and Glory and whatever this week's slayer duties require her to deal with. And that is the other important element at work which is that Riley had over-identified himself with Agent Finn, man with a mission, but by season five he identifies himself as the mission's boyfriend. Unfortunately, this over-identification problem has now turned out badly twice and he just doesn't know how to deal with it. If Riley ever figures out exactly who HE is, this might work (or not), but as things are I think it's better to go their own separate ways.

Bruce Trogdon

Yeahhh seasons 2 and 3 were all about how unhealthy Buffy and Angel's relationship was and Xander wouldn't shut up about how blinded Buffy was by her love for Angel.

KT

Joyce's surgery was a success and Riley gets on a helicopter and leaves Sunnydale (at least for now). It's one of the happiest Joss episodes ever!

Steve Quast

Not loving Xander's definition of love as "scary, messy, no holds barred NEED". That's so unhealthy. That's what she had with Angel, when she was a kid. There's nothing wrong with a woman being self-reliant and happy within herself, and seeing her partner simply as that - her partner. Not her missing limb. Someone she likes to have in her life, because she loves the person. Not because she NEEDS them desperately. Riley wanted that kind of love, so it's for the best that he left to find it elsewhere. I didn't mind him, but I just don't think it's fair to ask someone to love you like that, especially when they've learned their lesson that that kind of love is actually more 'scary' and 'messy' and 'need'y than it is fun or healthy.

cs

Both Riley and Xander were gaslighting disasters in this episode and it still makes me as mad today as the first time I watched it live. I absolutely hate this storyline and am eternally glad to see Riley get on that plane.

Renee Pope-Munro

This, all of this, just THIS! I've always given Riley credit where it's due, but this whole idea of Buffy being the one who's responsible for helping Riley's insecurities, at a time when she's dealing with her Mum's illness no less, nah man seriously fuck off in general with that shit. Even in season 4 there were times when Riley was all crazy insecure and rather than sitting down and talking to Buffy about it (you know leaning on her as a partner, opening up, etc, like he expects her to do for him) he comes out with some trite crap about how he's so in love with her he can't think straight, and it's supposed to be all romantic, but it's not. Their relationship was dysfunctional and toxic long before he started getting suck jobs from two bit whores.

Claire Eyles

So, I have a quote from a website called "Mark Watches." Every time I start to feel sympathy for Riley, I re-read this comment and everything I feel for him rushes back. “Oh Riley, how do I hate you? Let me count the ways. Buffy’s mom NEARLY DIED and she had to be all strong for her family through a really difficult time! And now you’re all upset because she didn’t come to cry on your fucking shoulder like a fragile little waif and you didn’t get to comfort her in your strong manly arms? FUCK. OFF. So then you leave her alone after you sleep with her and go and cheat on her with a bunch of her mortal enemies?? FUCK. OFF. And then you try to justify it by making Buffy listen to your stupid-ass explanations, saying that they ‘needed’ you and it’s Buffy’s fault because she doesn’t need you enough?? Because your insecurities are suddenly her responsibility?? And implying that she isn’t enough for you?? After all she’s done, that she has to give you more??? And then threatening to leave unless she instantly forgives you?????? FUUUUUUUUCCCCCCCCCCCCCCKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK!!!! OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF!!!! YOU UNIMAGINABLE BASTARD I FEEL NO SYMPATHY FOR YOU WHATSOEVER. Of all the needy, misogynistic, emotionally manipulative, SELFISH DOUCHEBAGS, you are the worst. How DARE you try to justify cheating on your girlfriend while she’s tending to her sick mother? How DARE you try to force her to fundamentally change her personality to suit your idea of what a girlfriend should be? How DARE you break her heart and then give her a FUCKING ULTIMATUM which leaves her only hours to sort out her feelings and try to forgive you before you LEAVE FOR ANOTHER COUNTRY?? Do you know who’s better for Buffy than you? SPIKE. That’s right. I said it. Spike, the cold-hearted, murderous, creepy stalker vampire who Buffy wouldn’t touch with a ten-foot bargepole, would actually make a BETTER BOYFRIEND THAN YOU. MY GOD, I COULDN’T BE MORE GLAD RILEY HAS GONE.” This was all written by the lovely enigmaticagentscully. And it kinda is the reason most of us hate Riley. Just in case you wanted a perspective that was different than yours. LOL. I'll put a link in a comment below if anyone else wants to read her full comment. It's magnetic, IMO.

Abby

I understand Riley a lot. I also think he represents the crisis of masculinity that men are going through these days. We get so many mixed messages about who we're supposed to be, it feels like we're supposed to be everything at once, strong but not to strong, kind but not too emotional. I'm a huge feminist, that's part of why I love Buffy. I do think though that male identity issues are sometimes brushed under the carpet of 'you just can't handle strong women!' when that's not the case at all.

HuntingSwan

Honestly. Zero fucks given about Ryley in this episode. Like you said you may be biased. Well I know I am. About 12 years ago my dad was in a terrible car accident. I was 17 and had moved out and was about to get married. My dad had brain damage and was unable to care for himself so that became me and my mother's job (on top of an actual job and I was still in high school). I moved back in with my mom for a year in hopes that with constant care my dad would recover. I was married during this time and commuting on weekends to be with my husband, going to school and caring for my dad during the week. Eventually he went into hospice we were just waiting for him to pass. My husband? Screwing someone else. I was in pain and having to care for family. Why should it be my job to make you feel important during that time? He was selfish and so was Riley. Sorry rant over. But this episode always ticks me off. He was selfish. And no they were not perfect. But that's why he should have been having a conversation with her. Even before her mom was sick he was not happy. How was she suppose to fix something not even knowing its broken?

As usual, you say everything I want to say! <3

Abby

The events leading up to the end of the relationship were certainly on Riley. He did stupid things as a result of his own insecurities. He exited as a bad boyfriend. However, I think it's pretty clear that Buffy and Riley were just never compatible. It was much clearer at the start of their relationship. Buffy's initial interest in Riley was based off of the idea that Riley was a boring, regular guy. When she found out he wasn't , she did not want to date him. He essentially "wore her down." Conversely, Riley responded with excitement when he found out Buffy was the slayer, (which morphed into resentment after he lost his powers and he couldn't match her physically.) Ultimately, I can't think of a moment in their relationship where Buffy is explicitly being a bad girlfriend. They're just incompatible. Unfortunately, as a result of those incompatibilities, there are several instances where Riley is being a bad boyfriend. All that said, Riley gets too much hate from the fandom. Some of it is deserved, some of it is just because he isn't Angel or Spike.

Second_Strike

So, here comes my input into the discussion haha! First of all, the scene between Spike and Riley is great. James Marsters is just SO damn good at his expressions and line deliveries. Gah! Now onto Riley... erghhh. So I was never a fan of him from day 1, but the longer he was around, the less I liked him. I just find him cringe, and I find him boring as a character. This season he becomes needy, whiney, and misogynistic. He feels like he isn't needed enough, but he never talks to Buffy about his feelings. Her mum gets sick, and its like he is mad that Buffy isn't acting the way he wants or expects her to, is upset that Buffy isn't breaking down on his shoulder so that he can protect her and play the hero... He goes behind her back to a vampire whore house, essentially - putting himself and everyone else at risk. What if he'd been turned?! He gets caught, and tells Buffy, basically, forgive me or I'm leaving tonight... WTF?! Her mum has just had major surgery, Glory is in Sunnydale and can kick Buffy's ass, she has to take care of her kid sister, and she still has to be the slayer! Riley knows all of this, and claims to be so in love with Buffy he can't think straight, can't stop his body humming with excitement around her... and yet, he is prepared to leave her, among all of that, because she didn't break down and rely on him the way he wanted her to. Riley has been struggling since losing his 'powers'. He is the Iowa farmboy, with old fashioned views and feelings - he wants to be the manly hero, with the lovely gf who comes to him for help - and thats fine. But that's not Buffy. Riley never totally got the Slayer thing at all. And tbh, I don't think Buffy was in love with him. I think she liked him, cared for him, and loved him - but wasn't IN love with him. I think she went out with Riley because everyone kept telling her he was great, and she should date, and Riley kept pressuring her, and pushing her. She grew to love him, but wasn't IN love. And then Xander comes along this episode with his preachy speech, projecting his own views and ideals onto Buffy without having a clue how she feels or what she wants... Xander hated Angel, was always on Buffy's case for loving Angel... But he's been all over Riley. I just feel like the speech was cringe... I didn't want Buffy to go after Riley at all. I loved Xander's moment with Anya though, and found Anya funny this episode. So see ya around Captain Cardboard! Bubye and good riddance lol!

Holi117

Yeah I think Riley not looking down is symbolic of him not believing there's a chance of it working with Buffy, or not really wanting to give it another shot. Watching it now, it almost doesn't seem like a true ultimatum on Riley's side, I think he was done and wanted to leave. Which is understandable and marginally healthier than actually expecting Buffy to stop him, but it's still cruel and immature.

KT

I can joke around all day about Captain Cardboard, the white bread hero, but I still cry at the end of this episode.

Jarrod Wild

I'm happy you don't hate Riley, he is a good guy! He has made mistakes but don't we all. I don't understand where all the hate for him comes from.?

CeNedra

I like his speech... because I don't think he was trying to tell her anything she didn't already wonder about herself. He just wanted her to put her emotions to the side for a moment and think with her head, "do I really want to let this guy go forever". There was a time limit, and from Xander's perspective, his friend was going through some seriously traumatizing stuff and was about to make a decision that would greatly affect her life while being angry, tired, and overwhelmingly stressed out. I don't think he's meant to be 'tuned into' her romantic life, but more, he's just looking out for his friend. I agree Buffy won't be happy with Riley... but I'm not sure Xander's intentions are as black and white as you're saying. In times of hardship and pain, people are usually not in the best place to make life-altering decisions, and we usually turn to those closest to us to help keep us grounded. He was trying to be that anchor for her.

Bisibia

“Being that close to her and not having her” - I think this is a great line from Spike. And a really interesting interaction between him and Riley, actually showing parallels between the two of them - which you wouldn’t think considering Riley was in a relationship with Buffy and Spike thinks he never will be. ( of course, Buffy has made it clear that he’s beneath her) And after Riley just nearly killed him they sit down and have a heart to heart! That is so Btvs. The first time I watched that scene, I was so in shock at Riley staking Spike - as the screen fades to black ( fortunately we didn’t have ads getting in the way in the UK). I was like NOOOO!!! SPIIIKKEEE! :D That must have been a pretty nasty wound, being staked through the heart with heavy plastic. It would have left a big hole in his chest and a lot of blood. But the budget musta been low or something cos it always really annoys me that Spike just puts his hand over his heart, and when he takes it away to grab the bottle - there’s not even a hole in his t-shirt!!! Let alone any blood. Bit of an annoying fail on that one. LOL The whole thing was a good scene though. And everyone’s acting in this episode is SO good. So it’s an example for me of how even with episodes that are just ’solid’ and don’t ‘blow us away’, the quality of season 5 episodes is really high.

Bellatronics

First I gotta say I LOVE that alleyway scene of Buffy staking all those vamps. It’s fantastic fight choreography, Buffy is so badass, it’s so effortless . She’s really come a long way and I love it. The best vamp slaying scene so far IMO. OK, a lot of opinions/ thoughts here: The one thing that Xander is missing/ not getting in his speech to Buffy - is that the very fact of Riley giving Buffy an ultimatum RIGHT after he just cheated on her, and expecting instant forgiveness and promise of a future with Buffy - Riley doing that makes him a douchebag, a jerk face that you really would think twice about if they are worth being with. It’s not an “I don’t like ultimatum’s.” It’s “anyone who gives ultimatum’s, especially straight after doing something deceitful and breaking my trust, is a douchebag, so why would I run after him?” I’m not alone among fans that aren’t keen on Xander talking Buffy into desperately running after a guy who she just found out had been cheating on her ( in a way that risked all of their lives, what if he’d been vamped, he could have sneakily taken out all the Scoobies). If Riley really wants it to work, he should stick around regardless of if Buffy has forgiven him/accepted him back yet, cos after cheating ( with addict sex workers is the very obvious metaphor - in the credits ‘junkie vampire’) - he needs to prove himself first. You have to work at things after cheating and give it time - just like Oz told Willow in season 3. Thing is, deep down he wants to go with the military coz he knows he fits and belongs more with them, and he doesn’t really believe it can work with Buffy. Though she’s been oblivious, he’s known for a while, as you have commented Liam. IMHO Riley has not only never really ‘fitted’ with the Sccobies ( see post for the last ep), he’s never really fitted with Buffy either. I do have sympathy for him though in feeling that Buffy isn’t letting him in, by her being so stoically strong and not letting him give her support. If this had been a good healthy close relationship, she’d’ve let him be right there by her supporting her in the hospital with her mum, instead of seeing him as a separate burden or drain on her energy that needs to be put aside while her energy is focussed on her mom’s health. I don’t think that Riley ever really got Buffy’s strength though - physical or emotional. Or ever really got what it means to Buffy to be the slayer. I’m not keen on him as a match, and am glad he’s gone, cos I don’t think he really gets her. Yeah and his misogyny has often been showing with this, can’t really handle being with such a strong woman - IMO for many of us. Y’know what, in practically every super hero movie and tv show ever. When the hero is a straight guy - guess what, his girlfriend never has any problems and hang ups with him being stronger than her, and being a superhero while she isn’t ! Humph! Riley having issues over this is pure misogyny, pure and simple. It is THE main reason for the Riley hate or dislike that is common - but far from universal of course :D [ I had other issues before that form the start personaly, not just this.] I don’t think Xander’s speech is that mature, I think he likes Riley and thinks he’s a good match for Buffy cos he’s not Angel and is human. I think he’s pushing his own opinion on Buffy here a bit much and pretty much pushing her to give in to the ultimatum. BUT, what I DO really like is what Xander does next - go and tell Anya that he loves her, and make sure she knows it. That is mature, and I love it. Also, just gonna say - Riley is leaving while Glory is around as a big threat. If he really loves Buffy wouldn’t he stay to have her back? Just another sign that he knows he doesn’t belong there. “Look down!” - those bloody noisy helicopters! My sympathies that you feel gutted about that. :) Despite all that I said above, Riley flying off while not realising Buffy is right below him is really frustrating. But I think the writing choice is a good one - it ends the relationship, while not having Buffy be - ‘this relationship doesn’t matter enough to me to just let him go’. But if he’d looked down he’d stay, and it would drag on this relationship. :( I think it’s best for him to leave - get on with his life as you said. [This is not spoilery, saying if he will come back at all, this is from my viewpoint when I first watched it. Felt like a very definite he’s gone and it’s over to me - at least for now.] “This is how it could have gone with Buffy and Riley.” IMHO - Xander & Anya have a much better relationship than Buffy & Riley. I love them together. Shipping Xanya seems a pretty common fandom thing. :) I adore Tillow too - these relationships are lovely! “Rough few episodes” - yeah, let’s all give Buffy a hug! “He always kinda belonged to that world didn’t he.” YUP! Exactly! You hit the nail on the head :D [I’m sure you can tell Liam, that this is one of the eps where I write my thoughts as I’m watching your reaction, LOL. Bloody rambling!! : ) ] MY GOD THAT WAS LONG This ep is always one for the culmination of a lot of Riley thoughts - not just for me :D Anyways, I love all your analysis at the end - so many thoughts :) I really like what you said at the end! That maybe a grounded relationship with Riley is what Buffy needed, and that not every romance is a fairytale one, not every romance is meant to last. Exactamundo.

Bellatronics

This is one of my least favorite Xander moments for the entire show. I quite enjoy the rest of the episode - especially since Riley's tru colors show more than ever - but what Xander says? The writing is ridiculous. Riley's the guy that comes along once in a lifetime? Really? Xander never understood Buffy's relationship with Angel, when everyone else did, so why are we supposed to think that he's suddenly totally tuned into what she needs romantically? Isn't the very fact that he thinks this about Riley a giant warning sign that Buffy isn't gonna be happy with him? Every word in his speech to Buffy just makes me cringe, because I realize that the writers must've felt the same. It was pretty known in fandom at the time that most viewers hated Riley but the writers adored him and so they weren't happy about having to write him out so ratings wouldn't drop, but that speech...god, that was just sooo bad. As I said, though, I do like the rest of the episode. The Anya speech is the opposite of the one before, I love this final speech. That's the Xander I know and love, that's the Xander who's the "heart" of the Scoobies.

Annie R. James

This is one of my favourite Xander moments for the entire show. He really steps up as the "heart" of the Slayer

Another episode with lots of interesting events. Kendra: Emotions are weakness, Buffy. You shouldn't entertain them. Buffy: Kendra, my emotions give me power. They're total assets. Turns out both of them had a good point. During that fight in the ally, Buffy focused her anger to an extent I don't remember ever seeing before. (It's only been three episodes since she was staked while fighting a single vamp.) Emotionally though, she's a mess. Acting out of a personal vengeance which spills over into her interactions with everyone. I don't think we've seen anything like that since she was bad in episode 2-1. Buffy was very off-kilter emotionally so at the end of a night in which nothing made any sense to her, Xander's “pep talk” sounded calm and rational and it put the blame primarily on Buffy. Just like Buffy always does. It must be her fault. Isn't it always? Not that Xander was completely wrong about Buffy but the line “Oh boy, is this not about me.” is typically a signal that he is talking about himself. If Riley was Buffy's 'rebound' after Angel (skipping over Parker), then Anya was Xander's 'rebound' after Cordelia (skipping over Faith).

Bruce Trogdon

I'm not a huge fan of the Riley character, but I think the lack of sympathy for him in the fandom is way over-the-top. These 2 are just not meant to be at this moment. The truth is Riley needed Buffy more than she needed him. Riley gave up his life... everything that he had built, his friends, his career, his beliefs. What he was left with was Buffy, and her life. Buffy, on the other hand, has friends, family, a sworn duty, and an overwhelming situation with her mother. I don't blame Riley for feeling unneeded... because it's true. Buffy wanted him, yea, but she didn't need him. He loved her, and told her, and she never said it back. The only time she said anything about loving Riley was to Angel, and that was just to hurt him. Buffy was distant, and Riley could feel it. If you've ever been the one who cares more in a relationship, you know you can tell. But Buffy did nothing wrong. You can't control how you feel, and she had so much on her mind.... but that doesn't change the fact that Riley knew they were both feeling different things. He sacrificed everything he had for her, but she couldn't do the same for him... nor should she. He'd always be a background player in her life, while she'd always be in the featured role of his. I feel for him. I feel for her. But I can't blame either of them. This was just... doomed.

Bisibia

I too like Riley. I understand that some of those who don’t simply didn’t find him appealing, which is fine. Others I wonder if they had a different reason, but who can say? Anyway, I don’t think this “college beefstick,” as Faith called him, was wrong about Buffy’s feelings. That is, it seems perfectly reasonable that she would not call Riley when her mom went to the hospital. But does anyone honestly doubt that, had it been Riley’s mom in danger, Riley would have told Buffy right away? Well maybe that’s not so and I have it wrong. But I really think she was the center of his world and he, to her, was not quite that. Anyway, a good Joe, that Riley Finn, (recent predilections aside) and I was sad to see his chopper take off.

Koz

When i first watched this episode and Riley buggered off, unknowing if he was going to come back or not, I was so glad at the end of this episode. Not that I don't like the character of Riley... he's my least faviourte.

Stuart Carr