Buffy the Vampire Slayer: 7x2 Full Reaction
Added 2025-05-24 18:57:29 +0000 UTC"Beneath You"
Comments
Just wanted to jump in on this whole Buffy Spike convo! As I do find them the most fascinating relationship in the series and possibly all of the film I have ever seen. It’s so complex and multifaceted and they are both characters who have conflicting internal personas. They are actually both very much characters who put on a ‘front’ for the world, but not for each other. ( It’s interestingly very similar to what we call masking for people who are neurodivergent, and something I find both their characters very much reflections of this experience.) There is no point in trying to put blame on one or another for the toxicity of their relationship, as all of it is born out of trauma for them both. They are both often responsible for the directions things take for different reasons. And part if why their season 6 relationship culminated in SA is more about toxic masculinity as a cultural problem than about one being primarily responsible. Also the fact that spike has no soul is why he is able to get out of control. His demon comes out when he’s frustrated and angry, in differing ways. It also drives a lot of his sense of entitlement to Buffy which is the biggest problem with their relationship prior to his soul, and how his character emulates that toxic masculinity of entitlement to females that we see if him prior to season 7. I do feel that a lot of spikes behaviour is directly blamed on Buffy unfairly quite often by viewers. This happens because spike has a lot of what we call Because he is a vampire and he is just the way he is. And it’s like she should know better and accept that. I would argue that she doesn’t have the capacity to respond to him with more patience. He is insistent and often very invasive and shows up constantly in her space without invite. And spike never respects when she asks him to go away as she’s not able to talk. This is a recurring theme in their whole relationship. I would argue it’s the only reason anything progresses beyond a friendship at all. While I understand this is just spike and the way he is, it still is a big reason she is pushed over that edge. He is verbally abusive and controlling and intentionally once he realises there is potential for her to see him as more than a friend. He intentionally plays on all of her insecurities and uses their intimate friendship to push her over the edge. I believe this is also an ‘intentional’ narrative of the show. Spike also often invades her agency. Ie blocks her path, fails to accept when she says no to talking or physical contact. This is deeply problematic through their whole relationship. And we should not ignore why Buffy affected by it as it is a problem that exists in real abusive relationships. Regardless of anything history between them, he does refuse her agency over when she interacts with him and how MUCH more frequently than she ever does. I do know the fighting is problematic on both sides and this is where it gets murky as they have such a strong history of physical violence against each other as enemies. Which complicates the whole thing. The difference is intent. Buffy is almost always reactive in her violence to an event or his behaviour where as often spike is calculated. Ie in smashed there is no way he did not intend for their fight to end the way it did. He just didn’t honestly believe it would work which is why he looked surprised. That’s why the next day he tells her that things have changed. (There is in fact a deleted scene in the script of him that confirms this intent.) Ie he has power over her now. He even threatens to bite her ie either kill her or turn her. His intent on using this is laid out clear as day in wrecked. I’m not saying he is entirely at fault because he is also reacting to things he cannot completely understand without his soul. But this doesn’t discount the effect of the controlling and verbally abusive behaviour he instigated with her regularly. It stems from entitlement which is one of the defining characteristics of vampires. But it also doesn’t negate its legitimate impact on Buffy as a ‘victim’ of this. She’s also not entirely to blame for him being confused as she is giving what we call ‘mixed signals’ the problem though is she can’t actually give clear signals because for the most part she doesn’t even know what she is feeling. She is so confused. She also blames herself a lot as she is very hard on herself and this is a defining trait of her character. But again this mixed signals blaming is dangerous territory from an abuse lense. As it doesn’t excuse his entitlement. Don’t get me wrong, I live spikes character, he is so interesting and I have compassion for him, but he does control a lot more than you realise when you really analyse their interactions from that lense of respect of agency, intent and who instigates the interaction. I have done Thai throughout the series and I can confirm that spike does hold a significant amount if control over Buffy when she is in a vulnerable place. When Buffy is in a stronger headspace she definitely holds more control. (Mostly because she is physically stronger, in a real life situation his behaviour would be even more problematic.) This whole scene in beneath you is so powerful as you see her literally going through everything he is saying and piecing together things for herself and sorting through her own feelings about it. The tears are such a well of compassion for him (because she knows what Angels soul did to him), guilt (over her own part in all of season 6), confusion (over how she feels about his motivations for doing this), and I think also she is in awe that he actually did it. It’s so multilayered but you see all of this going through SMGs face from the moment he says Angel. It’s quite insane that for such a huge proportion of this monologue we are actually watching Buffy’s reaction and not spike. It such a huge testament to her skills as an actress. That she doesn’t actually need dialogue to communicate to the audience her characters thoughts and emotions a lot if the time. If you pay close attention to her in almost any scene you will see exactly what Buffy is reacting to and what emotions she is experiencing. This is pretty much consistent through all her scenes. It’s actually a huge reason we are able to connect with that character as she rarely verbalises her inner thoughts and feelings (especially as the show progresses.) While Xander and Willow spill them out constantly. I mean they are both very much this way (Sarah and James as Buffy and Spike). It’s why you really need to pay as much attention to their expression as their words in any of their scenes together to understand their characters. They are two of the strongest character and actors in the series for a reason. 😉 Anyways my point is their is so much complexity here, you really need a psychologist to analyse it. It’s not black and white or clear at all despite how many fans will believe very strongly that their opinion is right. That’s the appeal of it though. You could sit here talking about it for years and never truly grasp all of it. It’s why it is so compelling.
Sarah_J_Salerno
2025-06-11 10:49:10 +0000 UTCIf it makes you feel any better, both Joss and Jane confirmed that the "chip removal" was a misdirect during off-season interviews. So if you were an avid fan back in the day, you would have known this prior to season seven airing anyways!
Dee Aitch
2025-06-06 20:38:35 +0000 UTCI wish you'd have rewound the last scene to try to analyze what he's saying, obviously it's a bit cryptic and literary (on purpose), but there was another reactor who did that (Sofie - and she's not even a native speaker) and it was great, whereas you are a native and have an English degree if I'm not mistaken so I would have loved to see you dissecting the words. 😔 This scene was rewritten by Joss because he didn't think the OG draft was good enough. It's a very beautifully written scene.
madfem
2025-06-01 23:13:51 +0000 UTCHow do you know the studio insisted on the soul thing? and at what point in the show? I just feel getting his chip out would be pointless because even with the chip he can still kill Buffy? so what would be the point? It seems like silly writing if he was just going to get the chip out.
Pauline Robertson
2025-05-28 20:07:20 +0000 UTCI've had this conversation so many times. No, it wasn't selfless. even if he went with the intention of getting his soul and not removing the chip (he didn't, btw) but even if he did, "Bitch is gonna get what she deserves." doesn't exactly scream selfless admirer. Just the TL:DR: The studio, in network, insisted that spike get his soul back because the fans loved him. The writers and, more importantly, joss himself were adamantly against it. The writers, the directors, no one told James that Spike was going after his soul. James prepared for and approached and performed that entire last episode believing that spike was fighting to get the chip out. People argue this but I'm telling you, this is my area, this is my industry., where I am educated, what I understand. There is NO valid reason to keep James working with a motivation that is so completely opposed and entirely conflicting with the motivation that the characeter is supposedly actually working with. It's clear to me that the studio demanded this, but that it was written to serve the vision of the writers and show runner but, kinda brilliantly, in a way that could be, in a sense, retconned in order to give the network and the fans what they whitened. I've said my peace. As for your question, 100% I have sympathy for him here. Why wouldn't I? This man has never done anything to me or any of the characters I love....aside from penning some questionable verses, of course.
Brandon Scott
2025-05-27 20:44:22 +0000 UTChuh?
Brandon Scott
2025-05-27 20:32:24 +0000 UTCTo be fair: Buffy hit Spike first. Yes, he started the fight with Anya, so the fight is 100% his fault and hitting Anya is terrible, but in Buffy/Spike-specific terms, Buffy strikes first and Spike only hits back. I guess In terms of whether Spike's getting his soul back "for Buffy" was being selfless or selfish, I think that vampires are basically sociopaths so in a sense everything is selfish - but sociopaths can be pretty complex, like Tony Soprano or Dexter or The Penguin or whoever. A sociopath could totally go off on a Grand Quest to Restore His Soul as a Declaration of Love without ever bothering to give a shit about whether the other person wants him to do it or not.
Arlo Murphy
2025-05-27 03:05:19 +0000 UTCYes at this point I feel empathy for Spike. To me, he is only responsible for his actions after he regained his soul. Though he can feel responsible because his soulless memories still remain, In reality, I think he is just a victim of Drusilla at this point. (Aside from punching Anya and Buffy and trespassing on school property.)
Saem
2025-05-26 11:08:24 +0000 UTCYeah, I see Cass' take on the ending scene of season 6 as a misunderstanding, and the explanations provided as clarification, not a spoiler. I can't ever recall people calling this info a spoiler before.
Maia Brodsky
2025-05-25 20:05:04 +0000 UTCIn my opinion, she caused him much more pain in season 5, when she used his love and his affection or just used him when it was beneficial to her, and did not even try to kill him, which he certainly wanted. But he had no one to share this pain with. No one cared about his fate, nor about Faith's fate, by the way, because they did not even have friends to share this pain with. Buffy, on the other hand, always had support and attention from her friends. I am not sure that she could have made friends if she had Faith's childhood. That is why I always put Buffy in a lower position than these characters. Spike and Faith had to survive alone in this cruel world, while Buffy had friends. Therefore, for me, the Spike-Faith couple will always be outside the categories. They were lonely people who should have found each other.
ThePowerDrome
2025-05-25 18:52:37 +0000 UTCOk ok last thing. I think you should maybe give the final scene a rewatch at some point, Cass. There's more going on than just Spike's conscience driving him nuts and him wanting forgiveness from Buffy. The things he says as he's laying himself on the cross strike me as a reflection of something William and Spike have both always wanted - to be loved, not just by Buffy, but in general, by anyone, by society or humanity, or even by God. To belong somewhere. I think the 'Spike' persona, or 'costume,' as he puts it, has always been a rejection of his sensitive William nature and of that core, unfufilled desire to be loved. It's like he put on the badass costume to try to prove he didn't need anyone, to pretend that feeling loved isn't the one thing he's always wanted the most. There are other moments in the series that lend credence to this idea, but it's never quite as clear to me as it is in this scene. Also, it seems you kind of missed a bit the beginning part of the scene, when he asked if he was just flesh to her, implying that her having used him for sex hurts him much more *now* than it did back when she was still using him, back when he was soulless.
Maia Brodsky
2025-05-25 16:11:22 +0000 UTCIf it makes you feel any better, the writers and producers of BTVS didn't consider the question of Spike's intent regarding his soul to be a spoiler going from season 6 to season 7. Jane Espenson publicly discussed it on a popular fandom podcast the very next day after 6x22 aired: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYjJjmvy09o
Gaius Frakking Baltar
2025-05-25 13:53:58 +0000 UTCSome great insights here. I think Buffy's tears are not only empathy for someone suffering in front of her, but also a reflection of the foundational level of care she has for Spike. Just because she couldn't love him and she used him doesn't mean she hasn't grown fond of him, and there is also probably some element of guilt she is carrying for the way she took advantage of his feelings for her the previous season. And for the knowledge that he did this to himself for her, even though we logically understand that she never actually asked for this. Putting myself in her situation, I think I'd feel a deeply painful guilt over such a monumental choice being made in my name, regardless of the fact that it wasn't something I asked for.
Maia Brodsky
2025-05-25 09:24:16 +0000 UTCLots of stuff here some already discussed... Touching upon Spike/William from my perspective, I think that his original actions to procure a soul were definitely selfish. I do have some problem imagining "selfless love" as in almost all love is selfish in the desire to have the object of said love (physically or merely present in one's life). So that doesn't impact my judgement much with Spike's motivations. Granted attempted rape is one hell of a hurdle and I don't see any romantic relationship as either desirable or possible (for either Buffy or Spike as he is now). It has been mentioned that William was a Victorian Age incel. I don't think that was a fair assessment of pre-vampiric William. He appeared to be a meek or gentle man who was socially awkward and bullied by his peers. This being the case, regaining his soul would be beyond devastating. The adventure in the Bronze was provoked by Anya digging at him and outing him in a place that would cause maximum damage to his psyche. So the lash out was inevitable. I don't imagine that the level of pain in Spike could be expressed in language. In my opinion, the situation of keeping this thing as a secret by Spike should be no surprise. There are levels of pain that we will fight to keep secret as revealing it is to invite and experience the most intimate possible level of agonized vulnerability. I don't wish anyone to look at their own possible "secret pain" too closely for the sake of argument but to just understand on another's behalf. I suspect that this is the very reason why priests and therapists are sworn to secrecy as to those under their care. Not to mention why it is sometimes easier to speak to strangers rather than to loved ones. (...also the reason, as somebody else mentioned in a different reactor space... in "Good Will Hunting" there is no way in hell that a math professor and his associate would ever be permitted to be an audience to any therapy session for Will...). Buffy getting teary to me is an indication of a basic level of empathy that she has since she is witnessing somebody being tortured in front of her and there is absolutely nothing she can do about it. Empathy is not usually something we associate with Buffy but without it she would not have survived as The Slayer for as long as she has so far. She also has a tendency to bottle up all her issues and keep them secret as well due to them being a source of vulnerability. The kind that if weaponized will destroy anyone. I could ramble on all day if allowed, so in my judgement, I will put a lid on it now. Looking forward to upcoming developments. Cheers.
Michael Labs
2025-05-25 03:43:08 +0000 UTCIf you remember how Buffy reacted when she thought she had killed one girl, imagine having to deal with over 100 years of evil and depravity all at once?, no wonder he's stuggling at this point. The sheer weight of emotions would crush anyone. She dealt with that by taking it out on Spike and he's dealing with much, much worse than her and not . Makes you think.
Dave Cruickshank
2025-05-25 01:14:30 +0000 UTC"Who's he talking to?" The fact that Spike could walk into a church at all is a clue. He was raised in Victorian England, so probably was Anglican (Church of England), but being non-religious was fairly fashionable in the 1880s when Drusilla turned him. Angel was Irish Catholic as a human, Drusilla was on her way to becoming a nun before he turned her. "No touching" on his part was, a bit of William being prudish in that place, as well as genuinely confused by her reaching for him. She followed him to a dark intimate place, they were there alone in the dark. "You'll always end up in the dark, with me." It was a place and a time when he could bare his soul to her. He couldn't do it with everyone else around. He said a lot of things -- how he felt when she died, that he realizes a bit of what Angel was dealing with, how he couldn't live with himself the way he was. Her crying was maybe for Spike, maybe for herself, realizing she still has feelings for him, even though she didn't want to. Seeing the "good" in him and knowing the bad is still there as well was heartbreaking.
spikeysnack
2025-05-25 00:13:38 +0000 UTCI have some sympathy for Spike as he is NOW, because just like Angel his soul is shouldering the burden of crimes that were committed when the soul wasn't there. But he didn't expect to feel anything like this when he went on the quest, so I don't give his pre-soul self credit for choosing to feel this pain. He had no idea what he was signing up for. He, like many people (both characters and in the audience), seemed to view himself as being halfway there already with the chip and his character development over the past few seasons. It seems like he thought he would just be a Brand New Man afterwards, and start with a clean slate. He didn't COMPREHEND what would happen. So I sympathize with him now, because I can't imagine anybody living with the guilt like this, but I still say he was Capital-E evil beforehand, right up until the very second the soul was put inside. It was all guided by selfishness and greed and passion, right up until it wasn't. I know I'm one of the Official Xander Haters, but he's right that Anya can't blame her actions as a Vengeance Demon on him. She made that decision in a moment of fear and anger and pain, but she still MADE that decision, and she's still continuing to follow through on it. However, I still hate him for the way he reacted when Nancy talked about having an ex ruin your life, because Anya still hasn't done anything TO HIM. Xander expects to be forgiven immediately, and seems to view her continuing to feel pain and hate as though it's an unfair burden. It's not his fault that she's a demon, but it's not unreasonable for her to be angry and hurt over being left at the altar, even a year later. That's not a minor thing to forgiven in a week.
JBK405
2025-05-25 00:11:00 +0000 UTCI think his decision was also influenced by the fact that Buffy and Xander called him an evil, soulless creature last season, a thing that couldn't possibly have good intentions. Unlike Buffy, who believes that it was the sheer number of punches that made Spike fall in love with her, I don't think Spike is a big masochist, he certainly tolerates, but there's a limit to everything.
ThePowerDrome
2025-05-24 23:17:15 +0000 UTCI definitely thought at this point that the main reason Spike got his soul was, like you said, to be accepted by Buffy again, not for any altruistic reason. It's the way he was talking during the trials and him immediately coming back to Sunnydale that makes me think he only wanted to get in Buffy’s good graces again. As of this point in the show, I have very little empathy for him. I know I'm in the minority though.
Lime Pie
2025-05-24 22:45:34 +0000 UTCYou can thank Whedon for the final scene, which he rewrote and directed after they shot a far inferior version (the original draft is floating around on the internet somewhere). The version we got was much more tragic and Shakespearean.
Helly R
2025-05-24 22:44:37 +0000 UTCAlso, when he looked up and shouted, "It's what you wanted, right?" and you asked who he was talking to, I personally believe he was talking to God. Not my original thought, got it from another reactor, but it makes a perfect and beautiful kind of sense.
Maia Brodsky
2025-05-24 22:26:27 +0000 UTCSpike was labeled Hostile #17 by the Initiative when they captured him. That's why the manifestation of Adam called him that. And like some of the others in the comments, I have a massive amount of empathy for Spike, with and without a soul. I felt bad for him when Buffy would beat him up before and after they became physically involved, knowing he couldn't fight back (before) and didn't fight back (after), and I felt even worse for him when Buffy was taking advantage of his love for her and using him. I even felt bad for him back when Angelus taunted him by getting involved with Dru right in front of him when he was confined to a wheelchair. He really has been love's bitch the entire series.
Maia Brodsky
2025-05-24 22:18:52 +0000 UTCI love how subtilely it’s illustrated that Spike DOESNT WANT to use his soul as a shield. He doesn’t “just tell” Buffy about it because he sees that the soul isn’t the cure-all, everything is forgiven card that soulless Spike thought it was and even feels guilty for thinking of it in such ways. It’s one of the elements that on rewatch enriches the plot point.
Isaiah Bryant
2025-05-24 22:18:17 +0000 UTC"Why not just tell her?" (About getting a soul) Of course we eventually get there by the end of the episode but when we think about Angel never really comes right out and says it either. I'm thinking specifically of the scene with Holtz in the hotel lobby. Kinda cheapens the whole redemptive aspect I think is what they're going for.
Preaching to the Horse's Mouth
2025-05-24 21:58:17 +0000 UTCSomething I'd like to point out before we watch -- Spike is my favorite character in both shows, and I enjoy analyzing him. You see, he doesn't want to admit to anyone that he got a soul, especially Buffy, because it makes Buffy feel sorry for him, which he definitely doesn't want. Instead, he wants to be seen as the shit that once tried to rape Buffy, and treated accordingly. If he gets killed -- well, he deserves it. If he gets kicked out -- they still treated him mercifully. He didn't come back looking for Buffy's forgiveness or love, he came back to help her, and that's it. Buffy, on the other hand, as we've seen many times before, immediately shuts herself up when it comes to sensitive topics and won't tell anyone about Spike, which again raises the issue of trust -- how much Buffy actually trusts her friends and family. Edit: also Spike finally decides to end this whole thing with a soul and clearly provokes Buffy to kill him. Not the first time, in principle. And if she didn't have feelings for him, she would have done so.
ThePowerDrome
2025-05-24 20:22:50 +0000 UTCThe last scene in the church is one of my most favorite scenes in the whole show. Its so emotional for me, great work by both SMG and James. And of course, Spike did want his soul out of selfish reasons. He was soulless when he made the decision and he thought that was what Buffy wanted, I mean she loved Angel, so what did Angel have, that Spike didn't? But he did not account for what having a soul would mean and that the soul would change him to something that he didn't expect at all. At this point in the show I already had given up for a long time that Buffy and Spike would come together as a couple (I gave up some time around the episode where Buffy is invisible). But after the scene in the church I really really hoped that Spike would grow up and that they could become close friends. I mean really good friends, where they respect and help each other. And that finally Spike would be able to see that his love for Buffy was toxic and not good for Buffy and not also not good for him with a soul. At least that was my hope back then. Lets see how the season will handle it.
Minister Kosh
2025-05-24 20:21:32 +0000 UTCIt's true, but Spike the vampire has an excuse for his love -- the main characters of the show always and constantly love selfishly, although they don't always act selfishly. A very old episode of BBB gives a certain prediction of this, where the women of Sunnydale, although they feel an attraction to Xander, realize it in very different ways. Buffy, Willow, and also in a certain way Jenny Calendar realize their attraction to Xander, offering him their bodies, the first two are quite aggressive in this, while Amy or the teacher just want to hang out with him, and Harmony doesn't even look for a meeting with him from the very beginning. Spike, on the other hand, as a soulless vampire, behaves not at all selfishly, he didn't tell Buffy anything until she asked, and he didn't want to tell her about Dawn, which puts him even higher than Buffy and Willow, since they have a soul and freedom of action.
ThePowerDrome
2025-05-24 20:18:10 +0000 UTCI cannot elaborate on much because I don't want to spoil anything, all I can say is, Cassie he has changed. But at his core he has always been William and I do have empathy. Empathy for William and Spike. I am not here to judge only to listen-- <3
Mayra Martinez
2025-05-24 20:16:47 +0000 UTCThere's a line in a show, and I won't mention the show, but it's a line which kinda sums up how I feel about Spike. It's something like ''Even evil things shouldn't be treated like shit. Just makes 'em more evil." Yeah, I have empathy for Spike in both iterations. Soulless Spike might be an evil monster, but he was also forced into a sort of living hell where he couldn't be one thing or another, and this ultimately took a psychological toll. And ensouled Spike was a victim at one time, and now he's dealing with hundreds of years of memories which don't feel like his own while being very much his own. He seems mentally destroyed. That said, I think his original motives were ultimately selfish. As a vampire, he couldn't conceive of the guilt he would feel and I think if he could've seen what having a soul would "reduce" him to, he wouldn't have gone through with it. Like he alludes to here, he had this solid belief (as Spike often does) that getting a soul would grant him a sort of power over Buffy, rid her of any excuses to not be with him and come off as heroic in the process. Now he's hit the rock bottom reality of what it means to live with guilt and knowledge, and as the original William was a sensitive soul, he's utterly twisted up.
Jorgalorg
2025-05-24 20:05:11 +0000 UTCI laughed when you saw the rat at the beginning and randomly wondered if we would ever see Amy again 😂
Christine Cox
2025-05-24 20:02:03 +0000 UTCYayyy!!!
Melissa Reynolds
2025-05-24 18:58:05 +0000 UTC
