Fixing Druid Wild Shape

I've been play testing this for a couple months now, between levels 6 and 8 in a slow moving campaign. Quite liking the changes so far, but one thing I noticed was once I unlocked Predator form at level 8, the Moon druid bonus damage die taking the predator attack from 2d10+Wisdom Modifier to 3d10+Wisdom, with two attacks per turn, felt a little overpowered compared to other level 8 characters. I agreed with my DM to forgo the extra d10 until a later level, playing it by ear still -- but maybe level 11 to coincide with cantrip and multiattack scaling. Maybe level 10 so that it doesn't come online at the same time as the multiattack increase.

Mahal

Gotcha; I can definitely follow that logic. Unfortunately, we didn't get to a dangerous enough portion of the dungeon for me to use my Beast Forms in the session last night, so I haven't got to try it out yet. That said, I'm super pumped to take it out for a test drive.

If I remember correctly, I think my reasoning was that the elemental form was significantly better defensively than predator so it didn't need the offensive boost as well.

Treantmonk's Temple

Hey Chris! I'm about to playtest this here in about an hour or so and can't wait to report back. Looking forward to seeing how it goes. We're going to be running Dead in Thay from Yawning Portal, so we'll be starting at level 9. My biggest concern going in is the scaling of the multiattack, given that it's the same rate (actually better, for the 4th attack) as fighter. I'll let you know if this is a real or imagined concern. My other first impression is that the Elemental Form states that the extra die of damage (from Moon Druid) is included in the profile, but the profile listed is only 2d10. Given that this is the same amount as the Predator form, do you think that it should be increased slightly or is that a minor typo? Again, this could be an imagined concern and I'll let you know either way after testing.

I like the ideas that some have mentioned for more customized forms... Just because there are some abilities from animal forms that are missing that can be fun (grapple/swim for crocs, swallow/swim giant toad, etc). Maybe rather then adding a bunch of additional forms you can essentially add a list of extra actions/abilities available to the Hunter and Predator forms, and you get to choose one to add to the form if you're a moondruid, or something like that. This would essentially let you mimic the vast majority of beasts out there and give the moondruid a little something extra. An example of ability to add would be something like "Tear Down" which would mimic the ability to cause creatures to make a STR save or be knocked prone which a bunch of beasts have. And for the scout form you could even add a small list of utility abilities available only to moondruids, for example (ie keen senses or the like, on top of the naturally stealthy). Or rather then that, you could have the scout form be something the moondruid can just do at will (but it takes a full action or x amount of time) once they unlock predator form, or something like that. Just so wildshape feels really special to them, and remains useful. That said I know you've addressed the oversight of the Moon druid healing ability by perhaps allowing it to actually heal the tmp hit points up to maximum originally achieved and it got me thinking... Why don't you use a middle ground on the extra HP stuff. Why not have the beast form grant additional HP more akin to the aid spell? You could reign in the amount of extra HP added I suppose, but that way it simplifies the healing issues and allows it to synergize with a host of other abilities that add temp HP without having to add an odd exception to healing tmp HP. This still saves on all the book keeping as far as I can tell, but allows the beast form to benefit from all the same healing sources it normally could (even if it was typically sub optimal for you to use them on the druids wildshape form). As for when you revert back, there are a lot of options... Easiest is just when you drop below the extra HP granted by the ability or some percentage of HP.

CypherAce

1) I think more options is good, not sure I would give advantage to perception AND stealth, but I could see choosing when the form is taken. 2) No, should be fine. 3) The idea of the forms is that the Druid can flavor them how they want.

Treantmonk's Temple

Chris, we began play testing this yesterday, and I have a few questions based on things I noticed in game: 1. What do you think about adding form specific senses/abilities to the Scout form? Otherwise, the utility of this form is limited to its size and stealth ability and using Hunter seemed to work better because at least you could get away (speed/HP). For example: Tiny mammals – Keen hearing and smell, Birds – keen sight, Insects/Arachnids – spider climb. 2. Do you feel that allowing several forms for the Giant Arachnid (maybe a rename too) would be game breaking? The reason would be for utility. That utility would be tied to the form chosen, with 3-4 categories available. For example: arachnid, reptile, amphibian, and primate. Benefits would match the category: web/climb for arachnid, grapple/swim for crocodile, swallow/swim for giant frog/toad, and throw for primate). This could also be done for the Predator form for use with larger beasts such as giant spider, giant crocodile, giant constrictor snake, or giant ape. 3. I imagined the Hunter form being able to take the shape of a young version of a large beast. For example: a brown bear is large, but a young brown bear would be medium. The Hunter brown bear is medium (young) but the Predator is large (full grown). Do you see anything wrong with that? It seems to just amount to flavor, and I like the idea of the form getting bigger as the character grows. Thanks for all your great work on this, it really is terrific and it’s been fun to play with it.

I didn't think about that at the time, but your right, maybe the ability should be able to increase the temps by 1d8 instead...

Treantmonk's Temple

Then I would recommend a tweak of some kind. One of the great advantages of the moon Druid is spending spell slots to heal and stay in the fight in the beast form. With temp HP the Druid would not be able to extend their time in the alternate form.

Bryan S. Warren

Yep, you missed it. I mention in the video that other than the abilities specifically changed in the document (Circle forms and Elemental wild shape) the Moon Druid's subclass features are unchanged.

Treantmonk's Temple

I don’t know if I missed it but how are you handling the moon druids ability to heal themself with spells in wild shape. That is key for them lasting longer in the wild shape. All that said I love this whole idea.

Bryan S. Warren

Sure Brian, 1) The reason for Temps is it is a smoother mechanic, I realize it doesn't allow temps from other sources, though I was probably a bit more generous with the #'s to compensate. 2) Mainly to prevent needless extra bookkeeping, as a different Con score is no longer needed (largely for the reasons you mention). 3) Alone, no, but add in magical attacks and I think it's up there. It's hard to be exact, especially without playtesting.

Treantmonk's Temple

Hey Chris. Great work. There are a couple design choices it would be great to hear you comment on for this version of the wild shape mechanic: 1. Why temp hp over the current system of separate hp? This creates the situation where the Druid now can not benefit from all the many sources of temp hp being given out by the rest of the party. Is that intended? Good or bad? 2. Why the choice to have the Druid keep his or her constitution score? Is it just to keep the base hit points the same? Is it intended to keep saves the same? Was it intended to prevent it from being a Druid dump stat (not really)? What were the considerations? 3. How does the Moon Druid now stack up vs other options? Is the extra die of damage (3.5dmg per hit in most cases, 5.5 for predator) plus elemental forms worth it in trade for other subclass features such as Star or Shepherd druids? Thanks so much for all your continued work.